ULT turned into bullet

[djslik]

Well i was dry firing my ult custom which i just got in the mail using my friends flatline tank set to about 1000 psi. The gun would shoot fine and then it wouldn't reset. I would have to push the bolt back in and hear the click sound for it to shoot again. My friend says try a different level 10 spring so i put in the raw colored one. We turn off the tank and the remove the valve. The gun sounds like it has a lot of air still inside of it so we shoot it until the gas runs out, but I notice the ult trigger won't allow the valve to be pulled out because it has come out a little and is getting stuck on either the body or the rail so i take of the trigger frame screw. I thought that was weird and I put the new spring on like I intended. Well we gas up the gun and nothing happens, literally and i think it was because maybe i had to turn the velocity up, but i only thought of that like today, anywayz, we turn off the gun again and had the same problems as before, but this time when i got the valve loose the ult trigger assembly shot out like a freakin bullet. It went all the way across the room and bounced off the wall, almost hit me in the stomach on the way out. I want to know why there was so much pressure in the valve and how to correct this. We shot the gun until it wouldn't shoot anymore but when we wiggled the valve all kinds of air was coming out, i mean a lot and the tank was definitely off we checked twice. Is there a way to degas the gun so i don't kill myself and what is wrong with my gun...sorry for the long post but i need to know before i go and play.

[Dayspring]

Use a quick disconnect, slide check or pro-connect to bleed the air from the line.

The gun will retain pressure inside it because that's how a regulator works. It'll have enough in it to shoot the on/off pin but not enough to shoot the gun.

[djslik]

okay cool, i'll grab one on tuesday...and the bolt reset problem, is that only due to the torque difference between the field strip screw and the trigger frame screw, or is there something else to look for?

[Bad_Dog]

been der done dat... but It never shot out of the valve like that... it usually just hits the rail on the way out...? how can you pull the valve out fast enough to get it to fly out like that?

[djslik]

well what happened was i used a pen to push the pin back in through the hole in the bottom of the rail and when i took off the trigger frame screw the body loosened up. After that the valve came out real easy but as soon as i rotated the valve past the rail it shot out really fast, scared the crap outta me.

[Bad_Dog]

oooOooOoOooooo :cool: :)

[Matches]

Mine has done that as well and hit me directly in the face. It gave me a 1 inch gash in my forhead.
This allso happened at a tourney last moth and the valve hit the guy in the eye. He was taken to hospital with bleeding under his retina but no permanent damaged was caused.

A quick disconnect will not solve this problem. The ULT holds a partial charge against the oring in the Level 10.

You must completlty degass the marker, remove the rear field stip screw and carefully slide out the valve and bolt with the ULT facing towards the ground ( or better still with a towel over it). Gently shake the marker forward so that the bolt can move forward and discharge the trapped air. Then the valve can be removed safetly.


:cool:

[Matches]

I posted this problem a few months back on BlackVCG's ULT Thread :)

[djslik]

wow...yea...i admit...i didn't read all of BlackVCG's thread...so the only way to prevent this problem is to actually put a towel around the valve, well...if that's the only way i'll do it just so i don't hurt myself.

[CaliMagFan]

hey man... i see that you wanted to know the original problem with your marker... thats the answer that i have for you..... its that your 2 frame screws are at different tensions.... use the link in my sig to read up on it.... but heres the long and short of it....oh yeah.... its got nothing to do with lvl10 springs... i wish ppl wouldnt suspect lvl10 on this problem... what you need to do is put the marker together and gas up.... fire untill the bolt doesnt lock up.... then tighten the field strip screw with an allen wrench until you hear the bolt lock in... at that point you'll know that you have the 2 frame screws at equal tension... what was happenin?.... well the lightweight aluminum ULE bodies get kinda twisted cause they arent super rigid.... that twist causes an intollerance that forces the bolt to jam in the breech near where it should be locking up.... hope that helps.... good luck ---> once again read that link in my sig for more RTP ULE info.....


-kyro

[djslik]

i read your post and i was fiddling around with the field strip screw when it happened, but i misunderstood and i thought i had to loosen it...and it wasn't doing anything...thanks for clearing up the confusion...i'll try that today...i think it should work

[Thordic]

I clocked myself in the neck with an on/off once. Hurt like hell, but no permanant damage :)

[Dayspring]

It's something the level 10 does. There's enough pressure to reset the pin, but not the actual bolt. So the air just sits. It'll happen regardless of the ULT or stock pin. This is a well documented occurence with the Level 10 system. You use the QD on your air line and it'll completely degas the gun.



A quick disconnect will not solve this problem. The ULT holds a partial charge against the oring in the Level 10.

[Timmee]

A quick disconnect will not solve this problem. The ULT holds a partial charge against the oring in the Level 10.


I've got a Pro-connect on my X-Valve, and it does a great job of degassing the vavle when/if I need to take it out of the body.

[Matches]

I had completly degassed the marker and removed all the air hose lines.
There was nothing attached to the back of the valve.
I had just the trigger frame, rail, body & valve together.
There was still enough pressure between the ULT on/off & level 10 to blast the valve into my head.

[Silverback]

:confused: First, Why is your tank set at 1000 psi!!! Drop it down to 650 to start then if the response in the trigger is not where you want it increase it by 50 psi max at a time. Mags work in the 650 to 750, 800 MAX range. I've been playing with a Mag since 1991, so I think you can Trust me on this one.

Second, ALL Mags will hold pressure behind the on/off valve until the air is off, purged and disconnected. Put yourself a standard quick disconnect between your tank and the regulator. Then to de-gas the gun, turn off the air, shoot down the pressure, THEN disconnect the quick disconnect, this will releave the pressure from behind the on/off valve so you can safely remove the valve.

Third, Loosen the THUMB SCREW (It's called that for a Reason) on the valve, and remove it. While holding the valve, pull the trigger, (This moves the on/off pin up to clear the frame).You will fill the valve release, then turn it Counter-clock wise and remove the valve. And you will not that the on/off stays put.

VERY IMPORTANT!!!!!

DO NOT, FOR ANY REASON TIGHTEN the THUMB SCREW for the Valve with an ALLEN Wrench (or any type wrench) the allen slot in the screw is to aid in REMOVING the Thumb Screw Only.

I REPEAT... DO NOT use an Allen Wrench to tighten the Valve Thumb Screw, It only needs to be as tight as you can get it with your Thumb and fore finger.

In 13 years of using Automags, in every form of Tourny from Music City to NPPL World Cup to Senario Games, I have NEVER had the valve screw loosen on me.

As for the Bolt Jam, normally this means a weak spring, but when tweaking your LVL 10 you will need to play with different spring/carrier/shim combinations. But get the QD first so you don't shoot the on/off around.

Hope this is a help.

Silverback

[Dayspring]

#1- Mags will work VERY well at 1000psi. If he wants a good amount of bounce to his trigger, this is a way to do it.

#2- You WANT the field strip screw tightened by an allen key- as has been said by SEVERAL of the AGD techs. This takes any minute play out between the valve and the rail.

#3- Just cuz you've been using a mag since 91 doesn't mean you know what you're talking about.


:confused: First, Why is your tank set at 1000 psi!!! Drop it down to 650 to start then if the response in the trigger is not where you want it increase it by 50 psi max at a time. Mags work in the 650 to 750, 800 MAX range. I've been playing with a Mag since 1991, so I think you can Trust me on this one.

Second, ALL Mags will hold pressure behind the on/off valve until the air is off, purged and disconnected. Put yourself a standard quick disconnect between your tank and the regulator. Then to de-gas the gun, turn off the air, shoot down the pressure, THEN disconnect the quick disconnect, this will releave the pressure from behind the on/off valve so you can safely remove the valve.

Third, Loosen the THUMB SCREW (It's called that for a Reason) on the valve, and remove it. While holding the valve, pull the trigger, (This moves the on/off pin up to clear the frame).You will fill the valve release, then turn it Counter-clock wise and remove the valve. And you will not that the on/off stays put.

VERY IMPORTANT!!!!!

DO NOT, FOR ANY REASON TIGHTEN the THUMB SCREW for the Valve with an ALLEN Wrench (or any type wrench) the allen slot in the screw is to aid in REMOVING the Thumb Screw Only.

I REPEAT... DO NOT use an Allen Wrench to tighten the Valve Thumb Screw, It only needs to be as tight as you can get it with your Thumb and fore finger.

In 13 years of using Automags, in every form of Tourny from Music City to NPPL World Cup to Senario Games, I have NEVER had the valve screw loosen on me.

As for the Bolt Jam, normally this means a weak spring, but when tweaking your LVL 10 you will need to play with different spring/carrier/shim combinations. But get the QD first so you don't shoot the on/off around.

Hope this is a help.

Silverback

[CaliMagFan]

silverback.... your post is full of missinformation... i think that i might have the support of dayspring on many other AOers on that one. the field strip screw- "thumb screw" didnt need to be wrench tightened on the classic valves with stainless bodies, but now with the newer Xvalve and the ULE stuff the tolerances are much tighter and you must use a wrench to minimize the variance in valve position... I dont mean to flame or pick a fight... just make sure you know what you are talking about when you post with intent to teach...

-kyro

[Matches]

Second, ALL Mags will hold pressure behind the on/off valve until the air is off, purged and disconnected. Put yourself a standard quick disconnect between your tank and the regulator. Then to de-gas the gun, turn off the air, shoot down the pressure, THEN disconnect the quick disconnect, this will releave the pressure from behind the on/off valve so you can safely remove the valve.

For the last friggen time: A QUICK DISCONNECT WILL NOT PURGE ALL OF THE AIR BETWEEN THE ULT AND THE LEVEL 10. :mad:

I have pulled the A.I.R. valve out slowly with all hose connections unscrewed from the back of the A.I.R. reg and the air chrage will still pop the level 10 bolt out or it will force the ULT out with a bang !!! :eek:

[Silverback]

I have been wrong in the past... and it will more than likely happen again HOWEVER ! I am not admitting defeat at this time... IT IS NOT MY INTENT TO MIS-INFORM!! I have only had a LVL10 for the past year, and JUST got an X-Valve.

Despite my natural inclination too do the opposite, I READ ALL the MANUALS AVAILABLE from AGD. (Online and Purchased) I have not found any printed information from AGD to back-up Matches, CaliMagFan or Dayspring's responses to my entry.

I have the following concerns about the information given (I'm not slammin anybody, I am taping knowledge from my real job):

1. The new X-Valve is ALUMINUM (alot softer than steel) the field Strip/Thumb screw is STAINLESS STEEL (much harder than aluminum). The reason that we did not (back-in-the-day), overtighten the valve screw was that the screw could (and has done it to me) break INSIDE the valve. (NO Fun to fix!!) With an ALUMINUM VALVE BODY, by torquing down on the screw with an allen wrench, you can STRETCH the threads in the valve, so next time you have to tighten the screw tighter to maintain your desired torque. In no time the aluminum threads will tear out. (Over-torque a hardened steel bolt in steel, it can tear threads out the FIRST time you do it) This, plus instruction from AGD Techs (When I was on a AGD sponsered team) and manuals. 13 years, it's ingrained.

2. The Valve seats in the body (Steel or ULE), and the rail. By snugging down the front screw (I insert the long end of the allen wrench in the screw at tighten, using the short side so as not to over-torque the screw, then I tightened the valve field strip screw FINGER TIGHT. For 12 years,and hundreds of thousands of rounds, my MAG has NEVER had a valve related problem since I started this procedure. (After drilling out a broke screw from the valve in '92)

3. I have been sponsored by AGD in the past, and dealt with the Techs and Tom face-to-face, none of which strike me as people who would release a product that has a design flaw that prevents the full release of pressure on all sections of the Valve, leaving a live multi-pieced projectile, launched with (as I'm finding out) up to 1000 psi!!! The liability would be economical suicide. So I believe there is some other problem causing the on/off valve ejection. My ULE / RT w/ X-Valve does NOT exibit this particular problem, nor the multiple firing at gas-up, as i read on another thread.

4. For curiosity sake, can some one PLEASE tell me WHY I would want to crank up the pressure to 1000 psi? This destroys gas efficency, and if I understand the workings of the response valve, would increase trigger pull dramatically, which is the exact opposite of what MOST of us are looking for when tuning our markers.

AGAIN GENTLEMEN, I'm not slammin anyone, but from my extensive experience with all varities of paintball guns, and dealing with torque stressing of numerous metal alloys in the Commercial Nuclear Power field, 2+2 is not equalling 3.99876. (Nuclear Humor) :D

[Matches]

No worries Silverback, i wasnt have a dig.

Im just trying to stop anyone from loosing an eye.
The simple solution is: wear eye protection when using compressed air.
Ive worked in the fluid & air hydraulics industry for over 12 years ( & ive had my mag for 10 ) and ive seen some pretty groovy accidents.

Im allso using a standard minimag AIR valve with a level 10 & ULT.
This setup is not recommend by AGD, but i can get mine humming so il use it till i get an X-valve.
:)

Ill try and get a small vid clip made up so i can show everyone what happens when i take the valve out.

[djslik]

i understand where you're coming from, but on the same token i have spoken to an agd tech on the phone who agrees with the rest of the group. And 1000 psi actually did not make the trigger pull heavier. If it did i couldn't tell. I had crazy bounce, i mean crazy bounce at 1000 psi. I don't care about efficiency because I have my own scuba and the fields i've played at have all day air. In my opinion and the way I play the efficiency won't matter to me unless I can really outshoot my tank every single game. I'm not good enough to stay in that long anywayz...not right now... i just started playin. But yes...all I have to say if it works then it works, if it doesn't then it doesn't. I don't really feel like doing a design analysis on the valve and bolt. I just want to be able to shoot the gun...oh and yes...the quick disconnect does work. I hooked the gun up directly to the scuba, yes ladies and gentlemen 3000 psi direct and when i turned off the scuba tank i used a quick disconnect and no more problems with the ult assembly shooting out. Not even a hissing sound when i take off the valve assembly. So thanks to everyone for their help, I don't want to knock on anyone because you guys were nice enough to give me advice and that i appreciate.

[Silverback]

:) No Worries....

It actually made the grey matter start clicking.

[Dayspring]

1) Manuals are done in an ideal environment. The techs know real world environments. I trust the techs. All of them have said to use an allen key on the field strip screw.

2) See #1

3) The valve doesn't have 1000psi in it. If you actually knew how the mag worked, then you'd know there's only about ~450psi in the valve chamber. The 1000psi into the Xvalve is what gives the rapid recharge/bouncy trigger. The on/off pin head sees the 1000psi. The regulator takes that pressure down to the ~450 in the air chamber. And when the level 10 first came out for beta testing, people found out that the LX system retained a charge of air in the chamber. Too little to fire the gun, but enough to eject the on/off assembly when disassembled. A quick discconect or proconnect WILL release any charge of air from the air chamber. If people don't believe it, then everybody who uses them is totally lying.

4) Bouncy trigger/sweetspotting. That's why.

I don't care how sponsored you were, this is how things are. Throwing around that whole "I was sponsored by AGD" doesn't mean anything. I know people sponsored by companies and know precisely SQUAT about the marker.


[COLOR=Red]
1. The new X-Valve is ALUMINUM (alot softer than steel) the field Strip/Thumb screw is STAINLESS STEEL (much harder than aluminum). The reason that we did not (back-in-the-day), overtighten the valve screw was that the screw could (and has done it to me) break INSIDE the valve. (NO Fun to fix!!) With an ALUMINUM VALVE BODY, by torquing down on the screw with an allen wrench, you can STRETCH the threads in the valve, so next time you have to tighten the screw tighter to maintain your desired torque. In no time the aluminum threads will tear out. (Over-torque a hardened steel bolt in steel, it can tear threads out the FIRST time you do it) This, plus instruction from AGD Techs (When I was on a AGD sponsered team) and manuals. 13 years, it's ingrained.

2. The Valve seats in the body (Steel or ULE), and the rail. By snugging down the front screw (I insert the long end of the allen wrench in the screw at tighten, using the short side so as not to over-torque the screw, then I tightened the valve field strip screw FINGER TIGHT. For 12 years,and hundreds of thousands of rounds, my MAG has NEVER had a valve related problem since I started this procedure. (After drilling out a broke screw from the valve in '92)

3. I have been sponsored by AGD in the past, and dealt with the Techs and Tom face-to-face, none of which strike me as people who would release a product that has a design flaw that prevents the full release of pressure on all sections of the Valve, leaving a live multi-pieced projectile, launched with (as I'm finding out) up to 1000 psi!!! The liability would be economical suicide. So I believe there is some other problem causing the on/off valve ejection. My ULE / RT w/ X-Valve does NOT exibit this particular problem, nor the multiple firing at gas-up, as i read on another thread.

4. For curiosity sake, can some one PLEASE tell me WHY I would want to crank up the pressure to 1000 psi? This destroys gas efficency, and if I understand the workings of the response valve, would increase trigger pull dramatically, which is the exact opposite of what MOST of us are looking for when tuning our markers.

AGAIN GENTLEMEN, I'm not slammin anyone, but from my extensive experience with all varities of paintball guns, and dealing with torque stressing of numerous metal alloys in the Commercial Nuclear Power field, 2+2 is not equalling 3.99876. (Nuclear Humor) :D

[atm743]

well why will he need his tank set at 1000 psi thats preaty hight well put an other shim on the spacer. you should only need two but i have to use three for some reason

[Nobody077]

From personal use I find useing a QD at the valve will most alwase completly vent the valve, the only time it has not was when my Lv10 jammed on a crappy ball shell when I was getting it setup. I used a straight shot squigy to restet the bolt and when pushing the bolt in it released some extra pressure, now I alwase push the bolt in and remove the QD before removeing my retro w lv10 from the rail, I have not had iny on/off pins shoot out since I started this practice.

PS I have been shooting mags since 93' practiced with many teams, some were agd sponcered some sponcered by Bud Orr(with his "NEW" autocockers in the trunk of his car) and I still learn something new almost everytime I visit the field or PB shop. Lota strange crap happens to guns, glad Im not a full time tech :)

[bleachit]

I had the problem of the on/off flying out a few times, I finally decided to take a flat head screw driver and push the trigger rod in, this was after I had degassed my mag and the trigger would not push it in any longer. This has worked for me and I have had no problems with the on/off flying out after doing this, although I always keep the rail very close to the valve when taking the valve off so the on/off would hit the rail if it decided to come out.

[djslik]

Well my quick disconnect completely degasses the gun right now and I have had no problems since using the quick disconnect. And as far as the bolt resetting Calimag has been most helpful. I think he is right because I torqued the thumb screw with an allen wrench and have not had that problem ever since. Thanks Calimag.

[P8ntBallBoom]

I have a proconnect on my Classic RT and it works great to purge the line. I'm not sure that stock on/off pins have that problem with retaining air, tho.

[Silverback]

Well, I haven't gotten my E-Mag yet...(I'm still paying for it) But I glanced through the .pdf file Manual and there it was... "operating pressure between 600 and 1000 psi." So I'll back off of that issue.

And then low-and-behold, I'm scanning through the "LVL10 Problems" Thread, and old "AGD" his ownself wrote about tightening the valve screw with an allen wrench to snug up the alignment. BUT PLEASE, be aware that it is very easy to stretch and even strip the threads on the aluminum X-Valves so proceed with caution.

Your humble bumble, the one and only SILVERBACK. ;) :o :p