4500 Flatline Update (pics)

[AGD]

All,

Cphilip posted a desperate plea for the 4500 systems so here is an update. We were having problems with about 15% of the systems deforming the reg seat under pressure. Here is what they looked like at two extremes.

http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/seal1.jpg

Can you see the difference? We sure can. The fix is to modify the design to make the seat deform in a controlled way to make sure it keeps the shape we want. This takes several tries to get it right. NOW WE COULD HAVE shipped them out to YOU and had our customers test the different configurations and just update you later but that's not our style.

We tested several different designs and think the one we tesed today will work the best. Here is a new seat next to a used seat, you can see they look almost the same size. This was only ONE test system.

http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/seal3.jpg


Now the question is, do we test ANOTHER batch of 20 units and see if we get failures? There are two ways to look at this, first since the failure rate was only about 15% anyways ANY improvement would most likely mean they would work acceptably, go ahead and ship a big batch to customers. The other side of the coin, since you changed the design you may not know ANYTHING about what will happen, you should start the testing from scratch to be SURE. So I ask you my loyal customers, what would YOU do if you were me? Remember Christmas is coming up.

AGD

[DarkPhoenix]

Tom, I greatly appreciate your candor and thank you for putting out all this information. I, for one, would rather you continue testing, in order that you put out a product that is not only up to your standards but also will set a new standard in performance.

I know I am one of those people who are chomping at the bit to purchase the new 4500psi Flatline, but I would rather wait than buy a product that the manufacturer is not very sure of. Do not give in to the pressure of the consumers and put out an unfinished product. Complete the testing and put out a product that will take a beating and keep on ticking. After all "Quality Always Shoots Straight."

Last thing, actually it is more of a request. When you bring the 4500psi Flatline into full production, I was wondering if I might be able to buy the reg straight from you guys. I would love to be one of the first to own what I know will be a great product.

[Tunaman]

Ditto! Get it right before you ship um. Test them REAL good. AGD is known for this type of quailty, and all who know that also knows they will be worth the wait!

[Threewheeler]

I've used your guns almost since I first started plaing, and have often been asked, "why go with 'a tube on a handle'"? My only answer can be "Because I know that when I screw in the bottle, that it will work." It would be very bad for you guys to release a product to the public without being 110% sure of the quality of that product.

Thank you for doing it right,

Three

[krafty]

I agree with everyone else. Continue testing until it works like it was intended to. Better to have the product as flawless as possible, so your workbenches don't get filled up with people needing the conversion to Flatline 4500 v2.0.

Anyways, I thought you wanted us all to dream about dancing sugarplums and E-Mags for Christmas! :)

[cphilip]

Tom, I certainly agree with getting it right. But I was hoping we were close. If I wait a few weeks do you think it would be rectified? I guess I could see if I could borrow a tank for a bit. How did I let myself get into this situation? :(

I would be willing to wait just a bit if I knew it was close. But I need a tank. Fairly soon. But my problem not yours...

[Temo Vryce]

Tom you guys are known for excellent craftmanship and I would really hate it if you guys put out a substandard product. Test the ______ out of it. When you feel that it works the way it should then release it. We can wait until after Christmas for it if we have too.

[ah137]

test test test!!!!!

[mitch]

i want one so bad for cheistmas.
but i don't want a defected tank either.
so keep testing and when they are ready i will buy one.
but keep it going and save one for me.

[MajorDamage]

Make sure they are the bestestest! You guys Rock!

--ENDO!

[kman32]

yeah i think you should get them working 100% before you ship them but i would devinatly buy a 4500psi flatline! thanks alot AGD!!!

[jr]

test test test, tom , do you do any controlled tempture testing at all?you know what i mean? like to see how some thing works at lets say 100f and 30 f or what ever.

[emaggot4life]

A testing we shall go, a testing we sahll go, hi ho the merry o a testing we shall go...

Test test test , as long as I can get one before June 2002.

[ralicea]

I'm looking for a new tank for my mag. After reading this post, I WILL wait until the 4500 Flatline is out.

Tom, do all the testing needed.

[lonsch]

i will test one for you :)

[wolverine85929]

Test,Test,Test. Do not release them untill you guys are 110% sure. I will just have to wait untill then.:)

[JanStah]

Would it cost a lot to ship replacement Reg Seals after a shipment?

I suspect that It'd be worth your while to ship a load of regs with the current seals, and then, if your testing discovers a better, longer lasting seal, just send each customer a few seals thru the mail.

That way, you get your product out before christmas, customers get their new toys, and you still live up to your customer care and reliability reputation.

Everyone's happy!

Jan.

[cphilip]

After sleeping on it (and watching a lot of MSNBC...) I came to a similar conclusion as Jan.

Here is what I was thinking Tom...

1) Is 15% distortion rate acceptable? Well depends...Is that a normal failure rate on any other tanks? I suspect not as you seem to imply it is unacceptable.

B) Does this distortion actualy cause any performance problems? I suspect it might as you seem to be concerned about it.

III) Is this a Safety problem? I suspect not as you imply you "Could" ship them out. And I doubt you would even mention it if you thought they were unsafe.

4) How hard is it to change these seals and does Jans suggestion to ship some extra's with then make sense to you?


I for one would never be afraid to take one of these with the newer seal right now as I am certain you would stand behind it like you have all of your other products. However I can surely understand if you chose to wait until seals distortion proves to be at a much lower failure rate as the cost of replacing too many of these eats into profit. And we all want you to suceed and stay in business so that would be reason enough to delay. I would be willing to take a chance on one of these newer seals right now though because I am in a situation where I need a tank immediately and don't expect to be buying another one for a few years.

[luke]

It always pays off in the long run to do it right the first time. ;)

[Webmaster]

Tom - I am pretty sure I sound like a big retard asking this- but the Raptor (Air Americas nitro reg) has a version for 4500 psi (Raptor Rex). Now - granted I havent taken a flatline apart - but looking at these pics they look similar to the raptor reg seats. What materials are they using in the Raptor Rex? If it is the same, are they having the same problems and not telling any one? If they arent having that problem - is their anything from the design that could be barrowed for the flatline or to help rectify the problem.

Again - I am talking with only a child like understanding - but I guess my main question is if its mainly a materials issue - could a similar reg using a similar material hold the answer?

[Webmaster]

On one more note - I want to keep encouraging AGD to work on the FLATLINE. I know that they have been working on this problem on and off since Ocotober last year. I simply LOVE my two Flatline systems, find them light, compact, durable, easy to adjust, reliable, and has the BEST on/off of any reg available. Simply put - its a kick butt reg. I know AGD has invested a ton of time/energy/money in the 4500 systems. I for one want one for my back. I use an 88cui tank for my emag durning longer games and it gets to be too much towards the end of the day. A 68 4500 would rock my world.

So when the 8th cup of coffee is wearing off - just remember we are all pulling for you.

[Russ]

It's been my experience with many paintball products that rushing a product to market is far more important than getting it right. Take your time, Tom. Get it right. And thanks for asking.

[cphilip]

Here Here! Thanks Webby!!! I too am "urging" if thats the right word. But me no gotta tank so me more "urging" than you! Am gonna get a 3000 if I can't get this 4500 I guess.

[dansim]

i may sound cruel in this but if you dont have everyone perfect by the end of october send em out for the xmas season i mean looking at it finacially here you gotta see a big sales boost around then and after xmas but say you dont get it fixed until next year youve lost a market edge and what on earth would make someone wanna buy this tank and reg when they can get the super electro mega reg /ultra 5 hydro tank for 100 bucks more?plus you guys have great custome service and if it breaks they know where to send it

[Chaos]

Tom - Heres what I'm looking at. The Airgun name is already a tarnished name in the field of pro players, everyone is going electro and cocker. Remembering that the majority of 4500 sales is from the tourniment players, since most fields dont even give 4500 fills unless at a tourniment (and some dont even then). Now, if the big time tourniment players decide to get an AGD flatline, and it happens to be one of the say 1-15% (depending how much the fix worked, but there is always some manufacturing defect for that 1%), then that gives AGD an even more tarnished name as that player spreads the rumor of the 'crappy 4500 AGD tanks'. With the internet's large groups like at PBC, rumors spread fast.

Now, on the other hand, with production time and everything, HOPEFULLY if you were to ok it today, the systems could be out and stocked in stores by early december for the big buying season. Waiting another 3+ weeks to do more tests and such, then going into production and all that, how likely is it that they'll be out in time for christmas?

Now, after that information, its up to you, there are other factors also that I'm sure you realize. Personally, it seems like an easy fix, something along the lines of the early warps with the plastic then brass gear. I'd say run the shipment now, get them out and big, throw an add in APG or PGI or something for them, sell a bunch for christmas, and include a warrenty card or something like that with them, so incase there is a problem then its an easy fix and convienent for the customer.

We all know you guys have great customer service, if its a small update you think you may have to do, its all your decision, but personally I'd rather you guys get them out. We dont want something like the Zgrip incident to happen to 4500 flatlines.

[Webmaster]

up

[Muzikman]

Keep working on them, but sell me one in Nov when I come out:) I'll take a reject as long as it's just a reg seat that needs chaged every so often:) Or is this something that happens right away when you fill the tank for the first time.

[damageinc54]

Any new information on the 4500 Flatlines? I have some money burning a hole in my wallet for one :)

[AGD]

The guys that have them for testing have been slow to send them back for the update. So far the updated ones are fine but we don't have enough data to know for sure. WC, the SFL's, plastic nubbins and Superbolts have been taking all our time. Look for another update in a couple weeks.

AGD

[HeerophantG]

WE ARE WAITING FOR4.5K!!!!!!!

[zads27]

I say go for a little more testing.. release them asap though, once you have a pretty good idea that a new design works..
What tank sizes is it going to be available in? I think you should make 45,68,and 88ci.. I like the 68ci myself, the 3k 68s were PERFECT for me, but some people like smaller, some bigger.. personally- not IF, but WHEN i get one.. i'm going to have to take a hard hard look at 45s.

[cphilip]

Well... I went ahead and picked up myself a used 68/3000 for the time being from one of our members here on AO. I must say the Guages and the on-off on these Flatlines is the nicest set up of any tank I have seen up close so far. Very nicely done. So I can hold out for a while now.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Just wanted to move this one back up to the top to stir the pot a bit...i'm getting my baby converted to an eMag soon and i think she'd be really happy with me if she found a 68/45 flatline under the christmas tree for her..

[Ball Buster]

WHat is the ETA on the 68/4500 Flatlines? I'm not in any hurry, but I'd like to get one... So any ideas?

[Animal Mother]

BLAHHHHHH!!!!!

[Miscue]

Dirty rat! I thought this was news about new reg seats.

[rdb123]

Miscue, me too. Darn, my tank has been sitting at Extreme Rage over a month just waiting for AGD to send them a new reg seat for me. ;)

Darn you Animal Mother!!!

[ICOM]

now i just need to buy me a flatline 4500 somewhere....

[fire1811]

dangit i just read every post thinking this was new news
grrrr

[Animal Mother]

Sorry duders... just want this thread put back up. Tom.. we really need this... stop X Y Z grips annd whatever else. Fix your current products before you make new ones, please.

[BlackVCG]

I sent SIX brand new 4.5K reg. seats back to AGD after IAO 2K3. That's $2,400 in sales. They have been given to Dave Zupan and from there, who knows what will happen. I wouldn't be surprised if half of them get tossed because they aren't "to spec". Most of those seats were junk because they didn't drill the taper face properly. Well, as far as I'm concerned, the whole taper face idea is junk. I've been running the reg. seats backwards in all of my systems without any issues, but I highly doubt they'd do this from the factory.

My 4.5K Flatlines pissed me off so much I was ready to go to AA stuff before I flipped the seats. They creeped, had horrible flow and were never consistent with the seats installed the "proper" way.

[brett]

BlackVCG can we do this to tanks that already have been filled/used with reg seat, or must it be a brand new reg seat to flip over?

Thanks,
Brett

[Cryer]

That was the funniest thing I've seen in a while. Good job, Animal Mother!:p

[BlackVCG]

I've done it on seats that have already been used and didn't have a problem. However, some of the seats get a bit deformed in the center and they actually "expand" a bit. If you take some dial calipers and measure the thickness, it should be .120". Make sure it isn't bulging out in the center of the seat at all.

To properly take out the seat, you need to unscrew the output adjuster and the spring pack. Make sure to note the orientation of the spring pack. If it's put in backwards it won't flow any air. Keep the spring pack in the adjuster when you set it aside so you can put it right back in the reg. body when you go to reassemble. Now, push out the piston from the side the seat is on with a toothpick or a small allen wrench. Push on the tip of the piston and once it's past the seat, you can pull it out the backside. Now you can just lift the seat out of reg. body, inspect it and then flip it over.

Put the reg. body face down with the seat in the pocket and pressed against a table. Push in the piston from the backside until you feel the stem of the piston pop into the seat. Lift it up and hold the corner of the seat with one hand while pushing on the piston from the backside to fully seat the piston. Put your spring pack back on and gas it up and dial in your output.