Michael Moore Wins in Cannes

[1stdeadeye]

Yet another reason to hate the French. A sharply divided jury gave Michael Moore's newest hack piece the top prize. Yet many jurists said it wasn't as good as bowling for columbine. It won for it's politics.

Suprise suprise the Hollywood and French Liberals don't like GW. :rolleyes:

Story here., (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120671,00.html)

[ShortStrokeTX]

If the president took every terrorist threat seriously, well we'd be living in one paranoid *POOF* country. I'm really tired of all the pointing fingers. "It was Bush! It was the Mayor! It was the Fireman! Hey, *POOF* you, it was the police!" Lord knows it was Osama bin Laden and his Saudi homies.

Didn't want to go off topic too much in your post Deadeye. I haven't seen the movie but if it's anything like Bowling for Columbine, well it prolly sucks heh (especially if the french like it).

[1stdeadeye]

If the president took every terrorist threat seriously, well we'd be living in one paranoid *POOF* country. I'm really tired of all the pointing fingers. "It was Bush! It was the Mayor! It was the Fireman! Hey, *POOF* you, it was the police!" Lord knows it was Osama bin Laden and his Saudi homies.

Didn't want to go off topic too much in your post Deadeye. I haven't seen the movie but if it's anything like Bowling for Columbine, well it prolly sucks heh (especially if the french like it).

Please edit your post to remove the cursing lest this thread be closed!

[Machina123]

i thought bowling for columbine was really good. Moore says what is not going to be accepted by many people. i respect him for that, he says what we all know but do not want to say.

[WingMan13]

The French liked it... Need we say more?....

[ShooterJM]

i thought bowling for columbine was really good. Moore says what is not going to be accepted by many people. i respect him for that, he says what we all know but do not want to say.

Now, when you say "We" I assume you're refferring to the same group of people that think Lord of the Rings is a true historical account and that the starship enterprise is in orbit around some star even as we speak?

[1stdeadeye]

Now, when you say "We" I assume you're refferring to the same group of people that think Lord of the Rings is a true historical account and that the starship enterprise is in orbit around some star even as we speak?

LOL!!!

My problem with Moore is not his opinion. Everyone is entitled to one. My problem is how he tries to preach his view as fact when everything he does is quite distorted. They are not documentaries, they are Op Ed pieces and should be labeled as such. Of course the fact he is a moron doesn't help his cause either! :D

[Ov3rmind]

Ok, I hate Michael Moore myself, but has anyone in this thread actually watched the movie in discussion? If not, I don't really think you have any grounds to get so pissed about it.

[cpm666]

michael moore is the *POOF*

Cuss again and your looking at a 3 day ban.

[Rooster]

"he says what we all know but do not want to say."

he speaks lies and half truths for the ignorant to fawn over. The one good thing about him? At least he is smart enough to know he is inventing the stuff. His followers are far too stupid to know the same.

[1stdeadeye]

michael moore is a *POOF*

That is more like it! :cool:

[Fred]

its funny because he openly admits that his work is totally biased and inflamatory... he gets a kick out of it... yet so many people don't realize it...

[Restola]

i thought bowling for columbine was really good. Moore says what is not going to be accepted by many people. i respect him for that, he says what we all know but do not want to say.
Uh...you know how many of those "facts" and "quotes" in that movie were total crap, taken completely out of context, cut together from multiple sentences, or just simply made up?

[FactsOfLife]

i thought bowling for columbine was really good. Moore says what is not going to be accepted by many people. i respect him for that, he says what we all know but do not want to say.


And by "we" you mean all the tin foil hat wearing types out there right?

[mcveighr]

My problem is how he tries to preach his view as fact when everything he does is quite distorted.

Oh, the irony.

[Target Practice]

Hey, Moore can win all the awards he wants. It won't make him any less of a Complete Gosh-Darn Moron.

I hate smurfs.

[Load SM5]

OK, I'm having to edit entirely too much cussing in this thread. Next one gets a 3 day. No further warning.

That being said, Moore is a tool who needs to cut back on the French food. He looks to be topping a sweaty 400lbs. right now.

[-Carnifex-]

For those of us who believe Michael Moore:

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

[FactsOfLife]

Oh, the irony.


Words liberals live by...

[1stdeadeye]

Oh, the irony.

I never state my opinion as fact! I only state facts I can prove! Like economics, statistics, etc...

I will state my opionion quite passionatley though. I will not lie and call it fact though!

[1stdeadeye]

OK, I'm having to edit entirely too much cussing in this thread. Next one gets a 3 day. No further warning.

That being said, Moore is a tool who needs to cut back on the French food. He looks to be topping a sweaty 400lbs. right now.

Thanks for laying down the law!

That being said "SHHHHHHH!" All that fast food is the conservatives plan to give Moore a heart attack! ;)

[1stdeadeye]

For those of us who believe Michael Moore:

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

Great link! Just remember though that the rules don't apply to the liberal elite, only us little folk who need their guidence on how to think!

[FactsOfLife]

I never state my opinion as fact!


Never stops me. But then, I'm always right . :P

[Chojin Man]

Never stops me. But then, I'm always right . :P

A true wiseman, knows that he knows nothng. :)

[Rooster]

"A ture wiseman, knows that he knows nothng."

A true wiseman knows he creates his own reality.

[FactsOfLife]

A true wiseman, knows that he knows nothng. :)


A true wise man is probably broke, living in a hole on the side of a mountain in Nepal.



I happen to like Guinness way too much to live in a hole on the side of a mountain.

[Chojin Man]

"A ture wiseman, knows that he knows nothng."

A true wiseman knows he creates his own reality.

That explains so much, that you think the way that you do.

[Can_Opener]

Michael Moore seriously needs to get another tux, that is the same crappy one he wore to the oscars 2 years ago and got booed off the stage in. You'd think Ralph Nader would want his patsy to at least look presentable.

[RoadDawg]

Now Bowling was interesting. It had some interesting information, that I personally found informative but not necessarily true. Was it oscar worthy? No. Was it the best documentary? No. I'm intrigued to see this upcoming film just for the pure entertainment value. I'm curious how he's gonna link Bush to the Saudi's and Osama. Should be interesting to say the least. I still however RESPECT Mr. Moore due to having the bags to release these types of films. I do however get a kick out of how his "facts" are only found through him. In case some people didn't already know this but he does bash just about everyone. Can't remember the book at the moment but been out pre Bowling (I think).

[Restola]

Should be interesting to say the least.
Why not just make something up yourself?

[shartley]

For those of us who believe Michael Moore:

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
As others have stated…. Great link.

I have no problem with Moore making his movies. There are many movies to choose from when wanting to be entertained, and Moore’s should be among them. What I have a problem with is the touting of them as being “Documentaries” or “Factual”.

I guess what really bothers me is that I know that FACTS don’t always mean TRUTH. FACTS can be stacked, portrayed, altered, etc. all in the attempt to say what those using them want to “prove”. Statistics are raw FACTS. And we all know that statistics can say anything we want them to say.

The TRUTH on the other hand is often quite different.

And another thing that bothers me is that my children’s school is showing “Bowling for Columbine” as an actual “Documentary aimed to spark thoughts on violence in America”. I signed the permission slip for my daughter to view it. However, I am also contacting the teacher and school as to let them know that if they think this movie is the TRUTH, they are sadly wrong. I am also going to get them to not use that film again for such a purpose.

If the school wants to spark conversation and thought about violence in America, they can turn on the History Channel, or get raw data themselves on the issue and make their own conclusions….. not listen to the fabricated and downright misleading and misrepresenting creative editing of Moore who makes a living off of creating lies and controversy.

Moore does not do what he does to “help bring the light to the world”, he does so to keep his bank account large. Moore is a fantastic orator, and he is a fantastic film maker. He is a very creative man. But so was Hitler. And Hitler’s “documentaries” were no more TRUTH than Moore’s are, and they BOTH used factual material to cover the lies, and to distort the truth. And sorry friends, once truth is distorted, it is no longer the truth.

[CaptaiN_JacK]

ive never seen the movie, since i dont know where to see it or if its even open to public, but i already know that it sucks and i hate it and that the french love it. i heard the mexicans liked this movie too. if thats the case, you know its crap. stupid mexicans.


now that were on the topics of people fabricating factual information, why dont we talk about the uranium that saddam wanted to buy from liberia. i could have sworn that that was a forged document. and that bush said it in his State of the Union Address. and what about all those pictures of WMD factories that Powell showed to the UN? what ever happened to that "solid" evidence?

[1stdeadeye]

ive never seen the movie, since i dont know where to see it or if its even open to public, but i already know that it sucks and i hate it and that the french love it. i heard the mexicans liked this movie too. if thats the case, you know its crap. stupid mexicans.

Are you bi-polar? :confused:

[CaptaiN_JacK]

im not bi-polar, im republican.

[1stdeadeye]

not bi-polar, im republican.

:confused:

Then how do you explain your previous posts?

:confused:

[shartley]

:confused:

Then how do you explain your previous posts?

:confused:
It is easy.... you just have to read what he wrote in another thread....


ive never been to switzerland. i never plan on going anywhere in europe. what i have done is played with you guys for the past two weeks, trying to piss you off, and it was fun while it lasted, but im getting bored with it.

so lets recap. first we started talking about the sarin gas. then we started talking about the war in general. then bluestrike over there started talking about long distance running? then we started talking about the swiss. then you started talking about unions. its been fun.

Get it now? He is not only an idiot, but one who no longer even holds any credibility in anything he writes.

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

http://www.theonion.com/wdyt/index.php?issue=4020

[Rooster]

"That explains so much, that you think the way that you do."

Yes, there are very few people left with genuine insight. To many have been caught up in the "if it hurts anything, it must be bad" mindset. That is incorrect. If it hurts my vision for my future, it's bad. Everything else is completely incidental.

[m20power]

Last Sunday I played paintball at Taag in Coursegold California and we got on this subject. All the kids were trying to tell us how great the "documentry" was and the field owner Marty finally piped in and said that the movie dosent really prove anything. Moore brings up a lot of speculation most of which is false but he can never answer any of the questions he asks. So he asks other people and tries to make them look stupid.

I was listening to NPR a few years ago and Moore was on talking about Bowling for Columbine. He talked about the Heston interview and said that during the interview Heston said "i think a big problem in this country is race, back in the 60s we had so many problems with it"
Those are the words that Moore used to explain what Heston said. Moore then went on to say that "Heston wouldnt let him out of the gate so he handed his tape to one of his coworkers who drove down the hill so that Heston wouldnt take the tape back"

I finally see Bowling for Columbine and discover that Moore just made it all up. He made it sound like Heston was racist when really he was one of the first supports or equality.

I have read two of Moores books and seen most of his stuff. If all you read is his stuff then he can be convincing but once you read all the facts you realize that he is just useing bits and pieces of bullock to support his argument.

I now understand why Nader fired him.

[aaron_mag]

Heston was AMBUSHED. That is totally ungentlemanly and WRONG!!!!

Personally there was alot I liked about Bowling, but that part with Heston really pissed me off. A guy has the decency to invite you into his home and you smear his name in the mud? That is just no class. Also the part about K-mart pissed me off too. They were making that poor lady feel like she was responsible for people getting shot. They did not choose for those people to get shot and they didn't wish for those people to get shot. Perhaps we should make it more difficult for minors to get access to bullets, but ambushing a woman at K-mart is again low class. She is just a worker bee trying to pay the bills....

But I do agree with this statement. It is what many of us said all along (but of course alot of AOers still haven't seen the light):



Many Americans now realize the French are "good friends of America who tried to do the right thing and tell us this was the wrong road," Moore said. "We owe the people of this country an apology for the way they were debased and treated in our media."

That thing with the freedom fries was just so gay....

[1stdeadeye]

But I do agree with this statement. It is what many of us said all along (but of course alot of AOers still haven't seen the light):
..

Welcome to this debate. I have missed your presence. That being said: Bomb France! :p

[aaron_mag]

Do you guys even know what Bowling For Columbine is about? He made it this way so that when people watch it they ask questions, he didn't answer questions because he wants people to answer them for themselves and build their own opinion on the subject.

Plus since you guys know so much you know that Moore is a member of the NRA right?

Yeah, he just wants you to ask questions and supply the answers for yourselves. That is what most college professors say as well. I did notice, however, that once I figured out to answer the question with the answer they obviously expected my GPA improved dramatically. (Rather than trying to come up with what I thought they wanted, which I thought, in my niavete, was my own independent opinion :) ).

Michael Moore supplies his chosen questions and his chosen answers. While I agree with him on some points, (and not on others) it doesn't take a genius to see that the argument is biased to one side.....

;)

[shartley]

The notion that he (Moore) is only asking questions so that you can answer them is bunk… sorry. He does not just ask questions. He misrepresents information and leads the viewer to come to answers/conclusions that are clearly WRONG. If his intent was simply to stimulate discussion, he would not have had to pull the editing tricks he did and totally fabricate false situations from factual snippets.

Moore is not in business to help educate or to stimulate… he is in business to create controversy (even if he has to manufacture it) and pander to those who hate America.

[FactsOfLife]

Do you guys even know what Bowling For Columbine is about? He made it this way so that when people watch it they ask questions, he didn't answer questions because he wants people to answer them for themselves and build their own opinion on the subject.

Plus since you guys know so much you know that Moore is a member of the NRA right?


Please, Moore is at best a political hack and at worst a propogandist for the left.

He has however found a MASSIVE loophole in the McCain/Feingold act.

[aaron_mag]

Moore is not in business to help educate or to stimulate… he is in business to create controversy (even if he has to manufacture it) and pander to those who hate America.

Funny...I thought he was in the business of selling books and movies.

We're not going to get into the conspiracy hate theory again are we? The "there are those who hate America and what it stands for. Some, of course, are its very citizens. They hate America. They hate the fact that we allow freedoms like allowing dissenting opinions. And they choose to show the hatred of these American values by DARING to exercise these freedoms we hold near and dear (but for those of us that are patriotic, silently) to our heart."

:) ;) :p

[SlartyBartFast]

I'm curious how he's gonna link Bush to the Saudi's and Osama.

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/conspiracytheories/saudi.html

Had to add this about the senate comitte 9/11 report:"In an interview with the fifth estate, Eleanor Hill, chief investigator for the Committee, would only confirm that those files dealt with sources of foreign support for the hijackers.

"Because they're classified I can't tell you what's in those pages. I can tell you that the chapter deals with some information that our committee found in the FBI and CIA files that was very disturbing. It had to do with sources of foreign support for the hijackers."

What was absolutely telling was that the interviewer asked bluntly if the blacked out pages were to do with ties to the Saudi's with specific examples and the answer was (acompanied by a rather telling facial expression) "Well ..., You didn't hear that from me." ;)

As for the French liking the film, I suppose you're all going to boycott Tarantino films now? He was head of the jury after all.

But Disney, the owners of the network that air Rush claimimng they don't want Miramax to distribute the film because they're not into politics?!? Now THAT'S rich. :rolleyes:

I'll go see the film just because Disney doesn't want me to.

[Bulldog]

Anyone hear or see the film "Michael Moore Hates America"? Can't remember the name of the guy who made it right now. It's on the tip of my tongue. Damn, o well. Moore is a sack of crap imho.

[Rooster]

"Plus since you guys know so much you know that Moore is a member of the NRA right?"

Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. If I wanted to know what the NAACP was doing, I think maybe I'd apply for membership. Just a thought.

[aaron_mag]

[url]As for the French liking the film, I suppose you're all going to boycott Tarantino films now? He was head of the jury after all.


Yeah. But only because Kill Bill sucked (in my humble opinion). :)

[FactsOfLife]

Actually Rooster, if you knew about Moore you would know that he won awards for his shooting skills. What things are you guys saying Moore is making up? Like the U.S. supplying weapons to other countries? I just want to know what you think he is making up.


If his idea of factual content holds true from his last movie, then I ask what ISN'T he making up.

[-Carnifex-]

Actually Rooster, if you knew about Moore you would know that he won awards for his shooting skills. What things are you guys saying Moore is making up? Like the U.S. supplying weapons to other countries? I just want to know what you think he is making up.

Did you even look at my link?

[aaron_mag]

Did you even look at my link?

Yeah, I read it. And I believe every word of it. I'd seen Heston interviewed before and he didn't seem like this senile raving lunatic that Moore portrayed. His ambushing of a man who invited him in his house (after an unexpected visit) disgusted me. Now I'm disgusted even more.

He should be ashamed of himself. I might not agree with everything that Heston believes, but he has a right to those beliefs. He has a right not to be slandered. I should have known that there was nothing to it. There is nothing the media likes better than good dirt. And it wasn't big news that the NRA was having this big rally in Columbine after the tragedy. And of course Heston seemed senile and confused when he was confronted with the other tragedy. It had happened 8 months before he got there.

Damn. Now I'm pissed off.

[-Carnifex-]

I know Aaron. I was refering to Automag88, who seems to be delusional.

[aaron_mag]

I know Aaron. I was refering to Automag88, who seems to be delusional.

I wasn't taking offense. I just sort of realized I hadn't looked at the link. When I did I was pissed off and had to comment. :)

[1stdeadeye]

Actually Rooster, if you knew about Moore you would know that he won awards for his shooting skills. What things are you guys saying Moore is making up? Like the U.S. supplying weapons to other countries? I just want to know what you think he is making up.

Let Moore make al;l the movies he wants. THey had better be labeled correctly though. It was a disgrace that he won the oscar for best documentary though. Bowling for Columbine was a "Mocumentary" though! Moore had no business competeing against true documentaries so he stole the oscar.

[FactsOfLife]

Let Moore make al;l the movies he wants. THey had better be labeled correctly though. It was a disgrace that he won the oscar for best documentary though. Bowling for Columbine was a "Mocumentary" though! Moore had no business competeing against true documentaries so he stole the oscar.


Moore has discovered a way around McCain/Feingold.

He's created a new genre of political ads. The feature length issues advocacy movie.

Can't run an ad 60 days before an election? No problem! Moore will make a couple of reels of lies, and peddle it as a documentary.

Nevermind the fact that the conservative voice in Hollywood is all but nonexistant. Has absolutely NO way in hell of getting the same kind of access to the film making ability that Moore has.


Thanks to senators McCain and Feingold, we get yet another trashing of the First Amendment.

And people think McCain would be a good president?

[Bolter]

yeah you guys are right!! Moore is a weirdo and you Americans should be allowed guns and weapons, and nukes and weapons of mass destruction, and all other countries shouldn't. Its unfair to think that life is precious!! Darn gosh it all!! Kill the postman next time he comes near the house! But make sure your twinkies get delivered! Wouldn't want to be thin like those other people from those other terrorist countries.

In fact why don't you all rule the world now while you still know everything.

Oh right .......... i forgot ........ you are trying.

[ShooterJM]

yeah you guys are right!! Moore is a weirdo and you Americans should be allowed guns and weapons, and nukes and weapons of mass destruction, and all other countries shouldn't. Its unfair to think that life is precious!! Darn gosh it all!! Kill the postman next time he comes near the house! But make sure your twinkies get delivered! Wouldn't want to be thin like those other people from those other terrorist countries.

In fact why don't you all rule the world now while you still know everything.

Oh right .......... i forgot ........ you are trying.

We're not saying he's a weirdo, we're saying he's a lier. And I fully support that everyone in the world should be able to have a gun! I just don't trust the rest of humanity with ammo..... :D

I would also like to point out that the only person I know who actually has twinkies delivered to them is in england......

[FactsOfLife]

yeah you guys are right!! Moore is a weirdo and you Americans should be allowed guns and weapons, and nukes and weapons of mass destruction, and all other countries shouldn't. Its unfair to think that life is precious!! Darn gosh it all!! Kill the postman next time he comes near the house! But make sure your twinkies get delivered! Wouldn't want to be thin like those other people from those other terrorist countries.

In fact why don't you all rule the world now while you still know everything.

Oh right .......... i forgot ........ you are trying.


It's ok, I understand you guys are still pissed about that whole 1776 thing...

[Southpaw]

Go England and your Good :rolleyes: gun laws that protect people :rolleyes: http://www.reason.com/0211/fe.jm.gun.shtml

[shartley]

In fact why don't you all rule the world now while you still know everything.

Oh right .......... i forgot ........ you are trying.
News flash… American policy is not about taking over the world. But I find that funny coming from someone who is from a country that DID have that as a policy. Of course they lost most if it too… didn’t they?

Oh yeah! We were a part of what they lost too. ;)

Come on folks, if you are going to try to be cleaver at least don’t position yourself right in front of the cannon.

[taylor492]

yeah you guys are right!! Moore is a weirdo and you Americans should be allowed guns and weapons, and nukes and weapons of mass destruction, and all other countries shouldn't. Its unfair to think that life is precious!! Darn gosh it all!! Kill the postman next time he comes near the house! But make sure your twinkies get delivered! Wouldn't want to be thin like those other people from those other terrorist countries.

In fact why don't you all rule the world now while you still know everything.

Oh right .......... i forgot ........ you are trying.

How does protecting our country by ousting terrorists and their supporters fall under world domination.

And you're right I dont want any country that is run by lunatics to have anything more dangerous than a really dull spoon

Oh and while we are on stereotypes, i hereby deem you the angry, mis-informed, euro-punk, who likes to jump on the "hate america" bandwagon.

[Bolter]

News flash… American policy is not about taking over the world. But I find that funny coming from someone who is from a country that DID have that as a policy. Of course they lost most if it too… didn’t they?

Oh yeah! We were a part of what they lost too

Come on folks, if you are going to try to be cleaver at least don’t position yourself right in front of the cannon.

News Flash - coulda fooled me. Look ok maybe I didn't mean "take over the entire world" and I understand if I personally attack your country in a post I am bound to get some back, the thing is that years ago, if the English wanted something, we would just go and take it. You guys, YOU GUYS, go arm the country, and then a few years later, you attack them for having weapons. Very sneaky tactics! Which is fine and dandy, but you all deny its going on!!! You are all oblivious to it!!

I'll leave you with a few quotes I found.

George Bush blunders

"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?"

"It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it."

"I understand small business growth. I was one."

"I think we agree. The past is over."

"The senator has got to understand if he's going to have it, he can't have it both ways. He can't take the high horse and then claim the low road."

"Do you have blacks, too?" -George W. Bush, to Brazilian President Fernando Cardoso, Nov. 8, 2001, as reported in an April 28, 2002, Estado Sao Pauloan column by Fernando Pedreira, a close friend of President Cardoso

"This foreign policy stuff is a little frustrating." -George W. Bush, as quoted by the New York Daily News, April 23, 2002

"And so, in my State of the - my State of the Union - or state - my speech to the nation, whatever you want to call it, speech to the nation - I asked Americans to give 4,000 years - 4,000 hours over the next - the rest of your life - of service to America. That's what I asked - 4,000 hours." -George W. Bush, Bridgeport, Conn., April 9, 2002

"We've tripled the amount of money - I believe it's from $50 million up to $195 million available." -George W. Bush, Lima, Peru, March 23, 2002

"My trip to Asia begins here in Japan for an important reason. It begins here because for a century and a half now, America and Japan have formed one of the great and enduring alliances of modern times. From that alliance has come an era of peace in the Pacific." -George W. Bush, who apparently forgot about a little something called World War II, Tokyo, Feb. 18, 2002

"There's a lot of people in the Middle East who are desirous to get into the Mitchell process. And - but first things first. The - these terrorist acts and, you know, the responses have got to end in order for us to get the framework - the groundwork - not framework, the groundwork to discuss a framework for peace, to lay the-all right." -George W. Bush, referring to former Sen. George Mitchell's report on Middle East peace, Crawford, Texas, Aug. 13, 2001

"My administration has been calling upon all the leaders in the - in the Middle East to do everything they can to stop the violence, to tell the different parties involved that peace will never happen." -George W. Bush, Crawford, Texas, Aug, 13, 2001

"You saw the president yesterday. I thought he was very forward-leaning, as they say in diplomatic nuanced circles." -George W. Bush, referring to his meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin, July 23, 2001

"It is white." -George W. Bush, asked by a child in Britain what the White House was like, July 19, 2001

"I want to make sure everybody who has a job wants a job"
--George Bush, during his first Presidential campaign


"For seven and a half years I've worked alongside President Reagan. We've had triumphs. Made some mistakes. We've had some sex ... uh... setbacks."
--George Bush


"Recession means that people's incomes, at the employer level, are going down, basically, relative to costs, people are getting laid off."

"The ambassador and the general were briefing me on the — the vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice."

"Security is the essential roadblock to achieving the road map to peace."

"In other words, I don't think people ought to be compelled to make the decision which they think is best for their family."

"I'm a patient man. And when I say I'm a patient man, I mean I'm a patient man."

"I promise you I will listen to what has been said here, even though I wasn't here."

"Our nation must come together to unite."

"For every fatal shooting, there were roughly three non-fatal shootings. And, folks, this is unacceptable in America. It's just unacceptable. And we're going to do something about it."

"It's important for us to explain to our nation that life is important. It's not only life of babies, but it's life of children living in, you know, the dark dungeons of the Internet."

"I think if you know what you believe, it makes it a lot easier to answer questions. I can't answer your question."

"Well, I think if you say you're going to do something and don't do it, that's trustworthiness."


and you trust this man? Crazy folks.

[aaron_mag]

My problem with Moore is not that he is in favor of gun control. I own no guns myself.

But his slander and villanization of Heston purely because he believes differently than Moore is wrong. Does using such tactics promote honest two way dialogue or does it just lead to more name calling on both sides?

As with Moore...I only ask the question :p

[taylor492]

Come on folks, if you are going to try to be cleaver at least don’t position yourself right in front of the cannon."




And if YOU are going to try to be C-L-E-V-E-R , learn to spell correctly.

And I would like to know what we are denying.

Denying.....the war in Iraq? NO

Denying......the sale of arms to middle east countries? NO

Denying...........your ignorance? Of course not

The US may have sold weapons to some middle eastern countries, but for necessary reasons at the time.

How were we supposed to know they'd turn around and start using them on innocent people.

And as far as those quotes go,

I couldn't care less about Bush's abilities to stick his foot in his mouth as long as he gets the job done.

nice job trying to sidestep the issue though.

[Bolter]

actually it was Shartley who mis-spelt clever wrong, I just didn't use the quote button correctly. Or more accurately I didn't use the quote button. Corrected it now.

[taylor492]

actually it was Shartley who mis-spelt clever wrong, I just didn't use the quote button correctly. Or more accurately I didn't use the quote button. Corrected it now.


Thats ok. We'll just substitute INEPT for ILLITERATE

[Bolter]

yes and I'll just substitute CAPSLOCK for ANSWERS to make me feel better.

Seriously the English are no better really. I do not agree with what Saddam or Bin Laden has done, let me make that clear, I think it is awful and a human tragedy, but is it any wonder they hate us when we are so two faced?
Here......have some cool weapons.......right you guys are into weapons and you are starting to make your own ones, so have some bomb up your butt. Hang on.....I'll try again cause I shot one of my own. Second time lucky!!

I read something the other day that documented the use of nerve gas (or similar, I forget) on Iraqis civilians for testing purposes, by the British, not so long ago. How screwed up is that? Sorry who are the terrorists again? Pearl Harbour was attacked, fine get revenge. But seriously, nuking two major citys full of civilians is a tad on the wrong side. I think more people were killed by those two bombs than people died in the two most recent wars the US has been involved in. Yes it stopped the Japs taking further action, but it made for a looooong drawn out arms race, and alot of innocents peeling their faces every morning.

I personally believe that we are all as bad as each other, we all, as countries have done some bad bad bad things against our fellow man, we just shouldn't deny the truth.

Anyone else worried about what the future will bring?

[taylor492]

yes and I'll just substitute CAPSLOCK for ANSWERS to make me feel better.

we just shouldn't deny the truth.




Deny what?! You are the one who never answered me!

So far the only one being denied anything is me............by you...............of an answer to my first question.

The inevitable andvancement of technology is to blame for the arms race not the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Nice try at blaming that on the US too though.

I do, however, find your use of the racial slur "Japs" ironic.

[aaron_mag]

The arms race would have happened regardless. And horrible things happen in war. That is how you get to the end of the war. No one likes to admit defeat. Sometimes it has to be brought home that it is time for them to 'endure the unendurable'.

And look at their country now...

The real issue is we have thrown out our deterrent strength for a preemptive doctrine. Can you imagine if the US had put all of its resources in Afghanistan? We'd have 150,000 troops there instead of the pitiful force we have now. Osama Bin Laden would probably be captured. And we'd be well on the way to rebuilding Afghanistan properly.

Instead we went off on a tangent against a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 for supposed 'weapons of mass destruction'.

What a load of crock. We really screwed this one up....

[shartley]

Bolter,
Your posts show that you don’t know the real reason for disarming Saddam or the extent of the weapons, and weapons programs he had (or you are ignoring it).

Nice try, but next time I would advise sticking to simple thoughts and arguments and not try to drowned it in useless quotes probably taken from an Ant-Bush web site.

As for my using the wrong word… I use a word processing application to write my post in, and it far too often finishes typing words for me. This causes the wrong word to be used at times and I don’t catch it because it is spelled correctly (and thus does not pop up as being wrong).

But, I for one would appreciate it if you keep your Anti-America and Anti-Bush sentiments and drivel to yourself. Thank you.

[Bolter]

Mr Shartley Sir, i pointed clearly to taylor as he tried the pointless "jab at a mis-spell" line, not me sorry.

For the record I am not Anti-America, I just think your government feed you a load of bull poo. I didn't mention the people. I find you the most polite and ambitious of people. And of course your drive in Paintball phenomenal!!

I am pulling out of this thread because I am being cornered and people are starting to have little digs at me personally and not the topic in hand. I think aaron_mag has more of an idea of what I think about this.

[Restola]

I am pulling out of this thread because I am being cornered and people are starting to have little digs at me personally and not the topic in hand. I think aaron_mag has more of an idea of what I think about this.
Bye.

Enjoy your inability to effect the world.

[Southpaw]

It seems to me Bolter that it is YOUR country that is Expanding not the US. How many countries did the EU try and get to join in the last year?

[shartley]

Mr Shartley Sir, i pointed clearly to taylor as he tried the pointless "jab at a mis-spell" line, not me sorry.

For the record I am not Anti-America, I just think your government feed you a load of bull poo. I didn't mention the people. I find you the most polite and ambitious of people. And of course your drive in Paintball phenomenal!!

I am pulling out of this thread because I am being cornered and people are starting to have little digs at me personally and not the topic in hand. I think aaron_mag has more of an idea of what I think about this.
Thank you for clarifying the tone of your posts. It is often hard to convey our exact “spirit”.

I know you didn’t make the jab (about the wrong word), I was just clearing that up for everyone.

I don’t agree that our government feeds our people any more “bull poo” than any government does though. And in fact I think it does less because we are such an open society, and we are naturally questioning everything our government does.

I just think that many issues are so complex that you can’t really define them with a sound bite. But when folks want to attack an issue or position, that is what they tend to use. Sound bites and generalities, as well as factual information taken out of context tend to do more harm than good.

[taylor492]

Mr Shartley Sir, i pointed clearly to taylor as he tried the pointless "jab at a mis-spell" line, not me sorry.

For the record I am not Anti-America, I just think your government feed you a load of bull poo. I didn't mention the people. I find you the most polite and ambitious of people. And of course your drive in Paintball phenomenal!!

I am pulling out of this thread because I am being cornered and people are starting to have little digs at me personally and not the topic in hand. I think aaron_mag has more of an idea of what I think about this.


Look, I cant help it if you don't know how to use the quote button.

I would like to discuss the issue at hand but you just wanna skirt the issue.
I cant get an answer about the "denial" issue

I promise to play nice if you come back :D
cross my heart, hope to die, stick a needle in my eye.

[aaron_mag]

I don’t agree that our government feeds our people any more “bull poo” than any government does though. And in fact I think it does less because we are such an open society, and we are naturally questioning everything our government does.


Totally agree with you there. It is in the health and best interest of a democracy to question their government...

[Toranaga]

News flash… American policy is not about taking over the world. But I find that funny coming from someone who is from a country that DID have that as a policy. Of course they lost most if it too… didn’t they?

Oh yeah! We were a part of what they lost too. ;)

Come on folks, if you are going to try to be cleaver at least don’t position yourself right in front of the cannon.

Just curious, but can you not consider the US at least partially, if not fuly, and Imperialistic Country in te 19th (mayeb into the beggining of 20th) century. What about the annexation (Sp?) of Hawai and our control of the Philippines?

[FactsOfLife]

Two tremendous things came out of using nuclear weapons on Japan.

1. It ended the war.

2. It showed he world the absolute horror of nuclear weapons.


having said that, Nuke France.

[shartley]

Just curious, but can you not consider the US at least partially, if not fuly, and Imperialistic Country in te 19th (mayeb into the beggining of 20th) century. What about the annexation (Sp?) of Hawai and our control of the Philippines?
I guess the easiest way to answer that is to say it was not to be Imperialistic, but those two places were of strategic value, not just to expand our Empire. You may want to do a little research on the matter.

After all, if we were Imperialistic, we would have taken Japan and Germany…. We could have you know, or maybe you don’t?

I could list example after example, but I think you get the idea. We are not Imperialistic. And history shows that quite clearly.

[FactsOfLife]

The arms race would have happened regardless. And horrible things happen in war. That is how you get to the end of the war. No one likes to admit defeat. Sometimes it has to be brought home that it is time for them to 'endure the unendurable'.

And look at their country now...

The real issue is we have thrown out our deterrent strength for a preemptive doctrine. Can you imagine if the US had put all of its resources in Afghanistan? We'd have 150,000 troops there instead of the pitiful force we have now. Osama Bin Laden would probably be captured. And we'd be well on the way to rebuilding Afghanistan properly.

Instead we went off on a tangent against a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 for supposed 'weapons of mass destruction'.

What a load of crock. We really screwed this one up....

Yeah and we'll never get Saddam either... :rolleyes:

[aaron_mag]

I think history shows quite clearly that we went through an imperialistic phase. Was it a mistake? Was it evil? Was it wrong?

Maybe.

But our imperialistic designs did not last long. And is Hawaii better off or worse off? Would they have been better off if another country had annexed them?

It is not bad to look at our history with open eyes. We haven't been a saint in our history. But I'd submit that we haven't been a devil either. I'd say that overall we've done more good than harm.

I don't understand our paranoia about admitting that our country has faults. We are not perfect (and neither is any other country out there). But we react to any criticism with vehement denial and aggression. To the point of self delusion.

Why? What are we afraid of? Can't we grow from our own history? We're a great country, but can't we still become better? Open self examination is the best policy.

I have an idea. Why don't we buy some self help books for our nation and sit around discussing our newfound spirituality (just had to add a little humor) :)

[FactsOfLife]

Just curious, but can you not consider the US at least partially, if not fuly, and Imperialistic Country in te 19th (mayeb into the beggining of 20th) century. What about the annexation (Sp?) of Hawai and our control of the Philippines?


Then we'd outright OWN most of Europe right about now.

It never fails to amaze me that there are people who think this country is imperialistic.

We have never asked for more land than was necessary to bury our fallen in.

And ya know something? I'd like to see how well the world would get along without US intervention.

[aaron_mag]

Yeah and we'll never get Saddam either... :rolleyes:

Saddam was a more important target than Osama? A guy who got his butt beat in the Gulf War. A guy who broke down crying when he saw his army get destroyed on the 'Road of Death'? A guy who couldn't stop us from enforcing no fly zones in his own country?

We choose to HIM as a priority over the mastermind behind 9/11?

I said all this before the Iraq invasion, but so many of you were focused on WMD and the 'link between Saddam and Osama'. Nevermind the fact that the 'link between Saddam and Osama' is that Osama Bin Laden wanted to fight against Saddam when he invaded Kuwait and threatened Saudi Arabia...

But nevermind all that.... ;)

[taylor492]

I wouldnt say Saddam is a priority, i would say he was easier to catch.

And where does it say Bin Laden wanted to fight Saddam?
Because he invaded Saudi Arabia? The country that exiled him.

[FactsOfLife]

Saddam was a more important target than Osama? A guy who got his butt beat in the Gulf War. A guy who broke down crying when he saw his army get destroyed on the 'Road of Death'? A guy who couldn't stop us from enforcing no fly zones in his own country?

We choose to HIM as a priority over the mastermind behind 9/11?

I said all this before the Iraq invasion, but so many of you were focused on WMD and the 'link between Saddam and Osama'. Nevermind the fact that the 'link between Saddam and Osama' is that Osama Bin Laden wanted to fight against Saddam when he invaded Kuwait and threatened Saudi Arabia...

But nevermind all that.... ;)


Who said anything about more important?

I'm saying, there were a LOT of people running their fool mouths about not catching either Saddam OR Bin Laden.

So far we have one of them DESPITE what all the naysayers were yammering about.

It's only a matter of time before we catch or kill OBL.

As far as your theory regarding Iraq and terrorists/wmd's...

We've found concrete evidence of BOTH, and still you won't believe it.

[Toranaga]

Then we'd outright OWN most of Europe right about now.

It never fails to amaze me that there are people who think this country is imperialistic.

We have never asked for more land than was necessary to bury our fallen in.

And ya know something? I'd like to see how well the world would get along without US intervention.

How would we OWN Europe? In the time period I gave (1800-beginning of 1900(very beginning if at all)), we were not the super power. Great Britain, France, and Germany were all stronger then us for most of if not all of that time period, leading into the First World War.

Also, the reason why the US ntervenes in other countries afairs may be noble and right, but it seems we never have a clear plan to rebuild the country afterwords.

Sorry for any grammer/spelling mistakes,
Andrew

[CaptaiN_JacK]

i love moore. hes a liar. he miguides people to think the way he wants them too. and the best part is, its going to help put bush out of office! now dont you just LOVE the guy!

and on a side note, check this site out. its great. www.moveon.net

im sure a bunch of you conservatives will dismiss it as crap before you even watch the ads, but thats because youre scared of the truth. and for the bush administration, the truth does hurt.

[taylor492]

Also, the reason why the US ntervenes in other countries afairs may be noble and right, but it seems we never have a clear plan to rebuild the country afterwords.



We have a very clear plan. Its just that they're are bad people in Iraq that have a plan too, which involves oppresion, not freedom. And those guys dont like our plan.

Correct me if im wrong but the US was in Germany for a while after WW II.
That turned out pretty good.

[shartley]

Also, the reason why the US ntervenes in other countries afairs may be noble and right, but it seems we never have a clear plan to rebuild the country afterwords.

Sorry, but you don’t have to look too hard to see how much we have rebuilt Iraq. In many places it is much better than it was before we even stepped foot in that country.

The US is the last country anyone should complain about us not “rebuilding” anything, since we not only rebuild countries that lose to us in war, but build/rebuild places all over the world, be it from warfare, natural disaster, or simply because they need it done.

No, the US is not perfect, but we are far from just marching all over the world throwing our weight around and leavening messes wherever we go.

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

We have a very clear plan. Its just that they're are bad people in Iraq that have a plan too, which involves oppresion, not freedom. And those guys dont like our plan.

Correct me if im wrong but the US was in Germany for a while after WW II.
That turned out pretty good.

Germany, and Japan were totally different rebuilding processes. We went in with coke and candy bars instead of M16's in Japan.

So I don't think we can compare the two situations.

[Toranaga]

We have a very clear plan. Its just that they're are bad people in Iraq that have a plan too, which involves oppresion, not freedom. And those guys dont like our plan.

Correct me if im wrong but the US was in Germany for a while after WW II.
That turned out pretty good.

For your first point: YEs But there are also many places that have far worse conditions becuase we have knocked out thier power and water. How many months did it take for power and water to come back to Baghdad perminantly (if it has even been done).

Also, What have we built in Afganistan that has greatly improved the general quality of life since ousting the Taliban? Most of the country is ruled by warlords also.

For your second point: That was also after Woodrow Wilson pushed for self-determination in his Fourteen Points, after World War I. There was a reason why the time I listed ended before WWI.

[1stdeadeye]

Germany, and Japan were totally different rebuilding processes. We went in with coke and candy bars instead of M16's in Japan.

So I don't think we can compare the two situations.


What?

We firebombed and destroyed Japan! For God Sakes, we nuked them! The difference is that we did not utterly destroy Iraq first.

We killed more with the firebombing of Dresden than the first nuke did! Germany was in utter ruins.

I guess you are right. To make it similar I propose we utterly destroy Iraq first and then rebuild it. :rolleyes:

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

Sorry, but you don’t have to look too hard to see how much we have rebuilt Iraq. In many places it is much better than it was before we even stepped foot in that country.

The US is the last country anyone should complain about us not “rebuilding” anything, since we not only rebuild countries that lose to us in war, but build/rebuild places all over the world, be it from warfare, natural disaster, or simply because they need it done.

No, the US is not perfect, but we are far from just marching all over the world throwing our weight around and leavening messes wherever we go.

I agree with you, but I think a whole alot of the world stills sees us as we were in the Cold War. Fighting and idealogical battles which tear countries apart.

The world would be a far better place, had we just let communism spread and then destroy itself eventually.

[CaptaiN_JacK]

the world would also be a better place if bush was out of power. but that wont happen until january so lets just sit back and relax.

[Toranaga]

Sorry, but you don’t have to look too hard to see how much we have rebuilt Iraq. In many places it is much better than it was before we even stepped foot in that country.
In many places it is also far worse off. Again (referring to my post above), how long did it take us to just bring the standard quality of life back to normal in Baghdad?

The US is the last country anyone should complain about us not “rebuilding” anything, since we not only rebuild countries that lose to us in war, but build/rebuild places all over the world, be it from warfare, natural disaster, or simply because they need it done.
Yes, we have helped and rebuilt other countries, but we have also left countries decimated and have not done anything also.

No, the US is not perfect, but we are far from just marching all over the world throwing our weight around and leavening messes wherever we go.

I love the US and think its a great place to live, but I find it horrible that people can think so one-sidedly (if that is even a word :)) People should acknowledge their mistakes and faults, not deny them while just pushing the positives in someone’s face (not necessarily directed at you).

Thanks,
Andrew

[1stdeadeye]

and on a side note, check this site out. its great. www.moveon.net

im sure a bunch of you conservatives will dismiss it as crap before you even watch the ads, but thats because youre scared of the truth. and for the bush administration, the truth does hurt.

Yes, this is the same site that had ads comparing Bush to Hitler on it. They sure are credible. :rolleyes: God I can not wait for Kerry to collapse so you little brats will crawl back into your holes. :cool:

[FactsOfLife]

i love moore. hes a liar. he miguides people to think the way he wants them too. and the best part is, its going to help put bush out of office! now dont you just LOVE the guy!

and on a side note, check this site out. its great. www.moveon.net

im sure a bunch of you conservatives will dismiss it as crap before you even watch the ads, but thats because youre scared of the truth. and for the bush administration, the truth does hurt.

Weren't you banned?

[FactsOfLife]

Germany, and Japan were totally different rebuilding processes. We went in with coke and candy bars instead of M16's in Japan.

So I don't think we can compare the two situations.

This is what happens when you sleep through history class....

[shartley]

What some folks don’t seem to understand is that many times things have to get worse before they get better. How many of you have had loved ones suffering from cancer….. I rest my case.

It is a shame that while some of us openly admit things don’t always go as they possibly COULD, others just seem to want to find fault with EVERYTHING. The real world seldom works the way some folks think it does, or can.

The real question should be if the final outcome is worth what it takes to get there…. and from all the examples I have seen posted, I would say YES. And as for Iraq, I sure hope so, and think it will be.

And as for Afghanistan, they ARE better now. Yes they are still ruled by warlords, but their women now have opportunities they have not had in a very long time. And there are other improvements as well.

Some folks just don’t want to see the truth. It is much easier for them to believe their propaganda. Sorry folks, but there is nothing noble about slamming your own country every chance you get. And there is nothing wrong with standing up and supporting your country now and again.

But hey, we have seen this all before. This is nothing new. Every generation has the same players. And at the end of the day, the roles those players actually play are the same and the power in this nation stays with the same set of players……. ;)

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

This is what happens when you sleep through history class....

not really, we also had the emperor telling the people what we wanted, and being that they thought he was God they kinda felt like listening to him.

[Toranaga]

All of this is in responce to Shartley's latest post (so there is no mix up):

I understand that things tend to get worse before getting better, but the time it takes for us to do many things seems to be outrageous.

Yes, and then their our people who can never find any faults. People have to acknowledge their faults (and their countries faults) but many Americans and many people on this board seem to be incapable of that.

The only place where anything has really changed in Afganistan is in the capital city and the area closely surrounding it.

I do not know if the second to last paragraph of Shartleys is directed at me or not, but if it is: I never not once said it was noble to slam our country.

I wouldn't have as much of a problem with what re government does if the general public acknowledged the faults once in awhile, instead of proclaiming the US the greatest thing.

Thanks,
Andrew

[FactsOfLife]

not really, we also had the emperor telling the people what we wanted, and being that they thought he was God they kinda felt like listening to him.


You have GOT to be kidding right? RIGHT?

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

You have GOT to be kidding right? RIGHT?

Actually I'm completely serious, here is the info on the Japanese emperor http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2135.html

And now why don't I just type a little passage that I have from my history book

The World Since 1945

They (Japan) appreciated the site of U.S. GIs brandishing, not rifles, but chocolate bars and chewing gum. Even more important for securing the active support of the Japanese was the decision by the U.S. authorities to retain the emperor on the throne rather than try him as a war criminal, as many in the US had demanded. INdeed, one important reason why the Japanese were so docile and cooperative with the US occupation forces was that their emperor, whom they were in the habit of dutifully obewying, had implored them to be cooperative.

So in short, I'm completely serious and have the information to back up my statements.

[taylor492]

Germany, and Japan were totally different rebuilding processes. We went in with coke and candy bars instead of M16's in Japan.

So I don't think we can compare the two situations.
Yeah when we invaded Germany and Japan, we threw candy bars at them till they surrendered.

Id like to hear a WWII vet's thoughts on your point of view

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

Yeah when we invaded Germany and Japan, we threw candy bars at them till they surrendered.

Id like to hear a WWII vet's thoughts on your point of view

I'm not talking about the invasion, I'm talking about the rebuilding, Japan in particular.

[taylor492]

I'm not talking about the invasion, I'm talking about the rebuilding, Japan in particular.


You think the soldiers in Iraq wouldn't be using the same tactics if they weren't being shot at on a daily basis?

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

You think the soldiers in Iraq wouldn't be using the same tactics if they weren't being shot at on a daily basis?

exactly what I'm saying Iraq is a totally different situation, and just because we were able to rebuild Japan and Germany that holds no grounds in regards to Iraq


What?

We firebombed and destroyed Japan! For God Sakes, we nuked them! The difference is that we did not utterly destroy Iraq first.

We killed more with the firebombing of Dresden than the first nuke did! Germany was in utter ruins.

I guess you are right. To make it similar I propose we utterly destroy Iraq first and then rebuild it. :rolleyes:

once again not talking about invasion, but rebuilding.

[taylor492]

exactly what I'm saying Iraq is a totally different situation, and just because we were able to rebuild Japan and Germany that holds no grounds in regards to Iraq



once again not talking about invasion, but rebuilding.

Ok explain to me why Iraq is different.

I went back and looked at your posts and I realized you are not even making a point. Not to say you dont have one.

My point is:
Iraq could be well on its way to a free and peaceful country except for the extremists who want their local fat guy to rule. So they think the best way for that to happen is to fight who ever is in control...the US.

I'm not entirely sure about post WWII Japan but i think things weren't nearly as violent.

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

Ok explain to me why Iraq is different.

I went back and looked at your posts and I realized you are not even making a point. Not to say you dont have one.

My point is:
Iraq could be well on its way to a free and peaceful country except for the extremists who want their local fat guy to rule. So they think the best way for that to happen is to fight who ever is in control...the US.

I'm not entirely sure about post WWII Japan but i think things weren't nearly as violent.

My point is that just because Germany turned out alright, doesn't mean that Iraq is based on the same reason you stated. It just seems some of the things I said got misconstrued.

[taylor492]

My point is that just because Germany turned out alright, doesn't mean that Iraq is based on the same reason you stated. It just seems some of the things I said got misconstrued.

And Japan we


You have a point. But you have to admit that we'd be much closer to our goal for Iraq if not for all the violence.

[FactsOfLife]

Actually I'm completely serious, here is the info on the Japanese emperor http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2135.html

And now why don't I just type a little passage that I have from my history book

The World Since 1945

They (Japan) appreciated the site of U.S. GIs brandishing, not rifles, but chocolate bars and chewing gum. Even more important for securing the active support of the Japanese was the decision by the U.S. authorities to retain the emperor on the throne rather than try him as a war criminal, as many in the US had demanded. INdeed, one important reason why the Japanese were so docile and cooperative with the US occupation forces was that their emperor, whom they were in the habit of dutifully obewying, had implored them to be cooperative.

So in short, I'm completely serious and have the information to back up my statements.


You're talking about Post War Japan and Current Iraq as if they were the same?

Are you nuts?

[-Carnifex-]

We went to vietnam to stop communism.

What sort of gov't is South Vietnam? Exactly.

We didn't leave it as a mess. If it's a mess now it has nothing to do with our intervention.

[shartley]

Vietnam….. you can’t list ONE situation and expect that to represent EVERY time we went places. Heck, Korea was no cake walk either and everything we wanted didn’t happen either.

And if folks think, the reasons things didn’t go so well in Vietnam was NOT because of our troops. It was NOT because we were there. It was because the war was lost by politicians. Things could have been much different if our troops were allowed to do their jobs. And that is all I will say about it.

This discussion has gotten really self defeating. So I will now say “have fun”, and stay out of it. It is clear (as it ALWAYS is) that folks will believe what they want, no matter what the truth is or what anyone else posts. So I am now going to not waste my time with it.

[1stdeadeye]

We went to vietnam to stop communism.

What sort of gov't is South Vietnam? Exactly.

We didn't leave it as a mess. If it's a mess now it has nothing to do with our intervention.

Actually we originally went into Vietnam to save the French. (Stupid French again! *Shaekes Fist*) Can you say Dien Bien Phu?

[taylor492]

Well back on the original subject.

I saw on the news today that Micheal Moore claims to have a video tape showing him interviewing Nick Berg. But he wont release it to the public, he's only dealing with the family.

Sounds fishy if you ask me.

Why would he announce that he has it but wont release it?

[aaron_mag]

Vietnam certainly isn't a good measure of U.S. rebuilding. We 'lost' that war and got kicked out. S Korea would be a better example. I ask you if you'd rather live in S Korea or Vietnam? :)

But this thread is going off the deep end.

I'm not arguing about whether the U.S. is 'good' or 'evil'. We're a country with interests to protect like any other. The debate is whether those interests would have been better served by focusing on Afghanistan (which was harboring OBL) rather than transfering our focus to Iraq. I think we have only 3000 or so troops in Afghanistan versus over 100,000 in Iraq.

As for Facts WMD proof...not even Fox has had a 'breaking news, WMD found!!!!' story...

;)

[SlartyBartFast]

We went to vietnam to stop communism.

What sort of gov't is South Vietnam? Exactly.

We didn't leave it as a mess. If it's a mess now it has nothing to do with our intervention.

South Vietnam?!? :rolleyes:

That's Korea.

Didn't save anything in the retreat from Vietnam...

[Hasty8]

i thought bowling for columbine was really good. Moore says what is not going to be accepted by many people. i respect him for that, he says what we all know but do not want to say.


Machina, you need to do a bit of research on Moore's use of creative film editing and outright lying.

Let's look at the first scene called "Michael Goes to the bank". How many days do you think that scene covers? One day, two days? A week? In fact, that scene was shot over 6 WEEKS!! The reason it looks like it took place in a single day is because Moore always dressed the same when he went to the bank.

For those who do not know, a Michigan bank was offering a "free rifle" if you opened a cd account with that bank of at least 1000 dollars. The truth was that the rifle was not free at all. That rifle represented the interest the certificate holder would have received in monthly payments over the one year life of the CD but instead they received that interest in one lump sum in the form of the rifle.

What the scene does not also show is how Moore was gushing while in the bank about how he was an avid hunter and how he though this was agreat idea. The scene did not also show him having to submit to a fingerprinting, background check and other lengthy procedures required to legally own a firearm.

I do not like Moore for his opinion. He is certainly entitled to it. What I am disgusted with was how he called his movie a "documentary" and yet went to great lengths to lie to the audience in order that they walk away from the movie with a completely wrong image of what really happened.

Take the scene where Moore slams the NRA for having their Annual Membership meeting in Denver right after the Columbine shooting.

Unfortunately for Moore the law and truth are greatly against him in this case yet he chose to blatantly lie and create the most egregious erros in his editing.

First, the legal aspect. The NRA was founded in NY and according to NY State law any membership meeting venue cannot be changed without notice and that notice must be given no less that 11 days prior to the originally scheduled meeting date. The attacks at Columbine occured 10 days before the meeting.

Second, the truth. The NRA meetings typicall last 5 days. I know this because I am a card-carrying member of the NRA. The Denver meeting was shortened to two days and every activity except the general membership meeting, which is required by NYS law, was cancelled. Also, the paper work required for the rental of the facilities, the arrangement of travel deals and all that were in the works for about a year and a half prior to the Columbine school shootings and none ever said a peep then.

Finally, the most disgusting evidence of Moore's total desire to simply manipulate and not educate.

We have one scene where Charlton Heston is addressing the NRA membership in Denver, discussing a letter that he received from the mayor of Denver. In this shot he is wearing a gray/brown suit. There is a very rough edit and it flashes to Charlton, now in a blue suit, holding an American Revolutionary war rifle over his head and saying "From my cold dead hands" and then it cuts back to the Denver membership meeting.

Charlton received that rifle over a year and a half, almost two years after, the Denver meetings at his appreciation dinner.

Moore is also as guilty of profiting from the Columbine incident as anyone else that he slams. BFC has so far raking in over 25 million I believe and he has not donated a single penny to any anti-gun groups nor has he given any money to help the families effected by Columbine.

Now, I'm not saying that he has too do those things but to yell wolf about profiteering and then to do the exact same thing is just a wee bit hypocritical.

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

You're talking about Post War Japan and Current Iraq as if they were the same?

Are you nuts?

NO! I said they were complete opposites

[-Carnifex-]

Actually we originally went into Vietnam to save the French. (Stupid French again! *Shaekes Fist*) Can you say Dien Bien Phu?

Yes, but that's implicit in any armed conflict!


South Vietnam?!? :rolleyes:

That's Korea.

Didn't save anything in the retreat from Vietnam...

I know, it was a typo, sorry.

I'm not stupid, really, I swear! :eek: :cool:

[SlartyBartFast]

Yes, but that's implicit in any armed conflict!
I know, it was a typo, sorry.

I'm not stupid, really, I swear! :eek: :cool:

I'll give you the benefit of doubt. :)

But also remember that Korea was a UN operation.

[-Carnifex-]

I thought Korea was NATO.

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

I thought Korea was NATO.

Korea was a UN Police Action

[1stdeadeye]

I thought Korea was NATO.

NATO=NORTH ATLANTIC Treaty Organization

:confused:

Why would NATO be in the Pacific? :rolleyes:

[-Carnifex-]

Thought NATO decided to take action.

[1stdeadeye]

Thought NATO decided to take action.

In the Pacific??? :confused:

Get it now?

NATO=European Theater
UN=World Stage

[-Carnifex-]

I know that 1DE.

I was thinking that the countries that were part of NATO decided to take action, thus a NATO action.

[SpecialBlend2786]

As others have stated…. Great link.

I have no problem with Moore making his movies. There are many movies to choose from when wanting to be entertained, and Moore’s should be among them. What I have a problem with is the touting of them as being “Documentaries” or “Factual”.

I guess what really bothers me is that I know that FACTS don’t always mean TRUTH. FACTS can be stacked, portrayed, altered, etc. all in the attempt to say what those using them want to “prove”. Statistics are raw FACTS. And we all know that statistics can say anything we want them to say.

The TRUTH on the other hand is often quite different.

And another thing that bothers me is that my children’s school is showing “Bowling for Columbine” as an actual “Documentary aimed to spark thoughts on violence in America”. I signed the permission slip for my daughter to view it. However, I am also contacting the teacher and school as to let them know that if they think this movie is the TRUTH, they are sadly wrong. I am also going to get them to not use that film again for such a purpose.

If the school wants to spark conversation and thought about violence in America, they can turn on the History Channel, or get raw data themselves on the issue and make their own conclusions….. not listen to the fabricated and downright misleading and misrepresenting creative editing of Moore who makes a living off of creating lies and controversy.

Moore does not do what he does to “help bring the light to the world”, he does so to keep his bank account large. Moore is a fantastic orator, and he is a fantastic film maker. He is a very creative man. But so was Hitler. And Hitler’s “documentaries” were no more TRUTH than Moore’s are, and they BOTH used factual material to cover the lies, and to distort the truth. And sorry friends, once truth is distorted, it is no longer the truth.

We watched it in english class for the sole purpous of examining effective persuasion tecniques. We then wrote a 6-8 page paper on the honesty of "Bowling for Columbine".

Facts are not always mean the truth, I agree with you there!

I only read up to the 2nd page, so sorry for interupting anyone's train of thought lol.

[SlartyBartFast]

NATO=NORTH ATLANTIC Treaty Organization

:confused:

Why would NATO be in the Pacific? :rolleyes:

So why was NATO in the Balkans? NATO is named after the location of the (original) member states. Not on where they expected to be active.

If they were to only operate in the atlantic, how on Earth would NATO defend North America from the Soviets over the Arctic and Pacific (really just the bearing straight I suppose) Oceans?

[spantol]

NATO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nato) was originally created to provide for the mutual defense of its member states against an attack in North America or Europe. The Balkans, being in southeastern Europe, would seem well within NATO's sphere of influence.

SEATO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEATO), the Southeast Asia Treaty Organization, was created to parallel NATO in that part of the world, but ultimately failed for reasons detailed in the Wikipedia entry.





So why was NATO in the Balkans? NATO is named after the location of the (original) member states. Not on where they expected to be active.

If they were to only operate in the atlantic, how on Earth would NATO defend North America from the Soviets over the Arctic and Pacific (really just the bearing straight I suppose) Oceans?

[SlartyBartFast]

NATO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nato) was originally created to provide for the mutual defense of its member states against an attack in North America or Europe. The Balkans, being in southeastern Europe, would seem well within NATO's sphere of influence.


True and undisputed. But my point was that the name wasn't connected to where they operate.

More strange, is the fact that many many ex-soviet republics are now members of NATO. Could become sticky if the article for mutual defense is invoked by some stupid little skirmish in the "Nastystans".

[spantol]

There has been exactly one time that a NATO operation has strayed from the North Atlantic area--when NATO took control of the International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan, last August. In that one instance, it was simply because there wasn't any other body equipped to take on that role.


True and undisputed. But my point was that the name wasn't connected to where they operate.