Deaths From Paintball!!!

[gorymonkey2]

On the news last night, i saw a thing about two deaths recently from paintball. It seems that when the two boys were unscrewing their CO2 tanks, instead of the regulators unscrewing from the bottomline, the bottle unscrewed from the regulator making the tank a deadly weapon in both instances striking the boys foreheads and killing them.
For the most part the people looking into this say that it was from people taking off the regulators and replacing the valves without using the proper adheisive making the tanks suseptable of coming off the regulator.
This seems to be quite a disturbing fact in the paintball industry, making manufactors much more on edge, since on of the boys mother's is attempting to sue the manufactor that issued her son the tank.
Please give your opinions on the subject, i want to see what other people than myself have to say about this. Feel free to express your opinions.

[BobTheCow]

Well both those cases you described were totally the fault of user error. I don't understand how, if all the facts were presented correctly, either tragedy could be seen as the result of carelessness on the part of any paintball company. Those deaths were, just like you said, because the kids were messing around with the tanks and didn't make it properly safe when they were finished. I'm not scared.

[JonDaAzn]

this happened a long time ago, nothing came of it

[ZapTheMad]

Can't say nothing came of it.

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml04/04105.html

[Target Practice]

Those deaths were, just like you said, because the kids were messing around with the tanks and didn't make it properly safe when they were finished. I'm not scared.

If my memory serves me, those deaths were both due to the fact that whoever installed the aftermarket anti-siphon tanks did not replace the pin valve correctly. It was not "because the kids were messing around with the tanks." Greg (I think it was Greg...:confused: ) Palmer checked out the valves and the tanks in question and said that the installer didn't do it correctly. It wasn't the kids' fault.

[Destructo6]

One of those deaths was just a couple of months ago, in San Diego, iirc.

[Rather]

TP, correct sir!

They found that the guy dod something to the burst disk. As in it was sealed shut (instead of the burst disk for safety reasons) and the guy didn't tighen the tank back onto the valve proplery so when the kid went ot take that ank off, the asa was stuck in the threads and the tank came off of the asa. VERY bad.

A bunch of stories and news reports say the cali kid bought it off of ebay and used it as is (shoulda had it checked for working condition first), iirc.

The Moral- this is why you let people who know what they are doing do work on CO2 and HPA tanks. Don't go and try and mill them either. Don't be stingy or mr fix it when it comes to your tank (unless you are certified).

According to that CPSC thing they want you to draw a line on the asa and tank, enough so that you will be able to tell if they are beginning to seperate. Doubt everyone will do it, but its a good easy idea to make sure your tank isnt a dud.

[Recon by Fire]

Just cases of "user headspace & timing" or Darwinism in effect!

[tribalman]

Just cases of "user headspace & timing" or Darwinism in effect!

not to sound evil or anything, it's a sad time when anybody goes, but that remark was funny.

also, anybody have a link to a news story of those?

[ramennoodles]

thats what you get when you unscrew your tank in that manner, attached is a diagram.
I also have a serious diagram below that one.

[AGDlover]

but you have to relise the preasure that are in thoughs tanks they could have had it off a little bit and the preasure could have shot it but that does suck componeys should redesighn a new type of regulator so this wouldn't be a problem any more

[Beemer]

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=125502&highlight=valve


quotes from that thread.......Know who???????????


"No other industry in the world uses inline threads the way we do because of this very problem. They all use some form of 90 degree fitting. Why we do I will not get into because I have vented enough in other threads today."

"Mounting the valve on a gun which is basically a two foot long lever and then diving into a bunker is an overall bad idea. Only ONE regulator on the market has a fail safe shut off if the reg breaks off."

[Destructo6]

Here's a link to a story on the February death:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/Living/Paintball_death_040228-1.html

[gc82000]

This is getting serious, my sis in DC said they might pass a bill about restricting PB. Oh yeah Sniper king, I am surprised you can spell your password correctly.

[RtDaNiMaL]

ya... that really sucks. the time that the mom got killed was differen than the two kids. The time that the mom got killed was like 3 1/2 months ago. it happened by my house. a paintball field that was like 30 min. away.

[Target Practice]

This is getting serious, my sis in DC said they might pass a bill about restricting PB.

I don't think a bill could pass restricting PB because of this. You could make the case that the next time some kid gets killed in a football or baseball game, that you can restrict those sports as well. I think that this is the same reason that markers won't ever be outlawed on account of people using them improperly. How many people have been assaulted with a marker?Now compare that number to the number of people who have been assaulted with a baseball bat or golf club. Anyhoo, I just don't see it happening.

[Destructo6]

I don't think a bill could pass restricting PB because of this. You could make the case that the next time some kid gets killed in a football or baseball game, that you can restrict those sports as well.
Logic and reality has little to do with too much legislation. Congress recently passed legislation to prohibit all plastic and/or ceramic pistols that could make it through a metal detector, undetected. Of course, such a thing doesn't exist.

Add to that the fact that paintball doesn't have much of a lobbying effort in place.

[JonDaAzn]

it probably would't go through anyways, I don't think K2, Brass Eagle, or Kingman would let it happen

[Enemy]

im going to address most things using the death of the mom first since that is the one i know most about... the tank had an anti siphon installed the installer didnt use any form of a thread locker when he installed this..now bike builders use thread locker just to hold a tank on why wouldnt you use some to hold back 850 psi..secondly thread locker probably from the factory blocked the vent whole that vents pressure when the tank is seprated from the valve. look at ramennoodles pic of the valve you see the whole that vents when the threads get past that whole..now why would it do that oh wait its a saftey feature i guess companys actually do do that.. ive looked at the threads on my pmi tank and yes they have the same blow off whole..oh wanna hear a funny story.. got my brand new pmi pure energy tank 4500/88 and slapped it on my mag filled it and just to test things out cuz that was the first time i used my mag as well, everything worked so i started to unscrew the tank when i realized it should be off by now so i looked down and the reg valve was still in the asa and the tank was seperated a little bit so i screw all back it not wanting to be a dumbass and then used a wrench to remove the whole thing reg and all i then vented the tank using my keys and took it apart just to see whats what then i put it back together tightend down the screws that hold the tank and have never had a problem with this again.. moral of story dumb people deserve bad things if it should be out by then maybe you should check things!!!

[Dryden]

the tank had an anti siphon installed the installer didnt use any form of a thread locker when he installed this..now bike builders use thread locker just to hold a tank on why wouldnt you use some to hold back 850 psiYou are not supposed to use Loctite or any thread sealant on the pin valve. Get a couple of strap wrenchs, a monkey wrench, a vise, soft jaws, a certified airsmith, the National Guard or whatever and torque the thing properly to protect you from yourself, but do not use Loctite. It's an unsettling trend I'm seeing both here and on other PB forums that people recommend Loctite as cure-all like it's duct tape. :rolleyes:

As for government regulations and the cartoon above showing an individual unscrewing their tank close to their forehead ... *sigh* What I think is missing from this discussion is the fact that people don't kill themselves when this occurs, they kill others standing near them. As I understand the story from Palmer, the woman killed was struck in the back of the head by a tank that disassembled while in the possession of a walk-on who was a member of a different group and was in the vacinity.

How often do you watch everyone standing within 50 feet of you while they unscrew their tanks? I'm afraid it's not so simple a solution.

EDIT: I would point out also that you don't need to unscrew the tank from the valve to launch it with deadly force. I personally witnessed a 10oz CO2 tank take off like a rocket in the middle of a line at a port-a-potty from a blown burst disk. The tank was filled to capacity, it was probably 95 degrees in the shade, and a man who had just walked away from the fill station with the tank upside down in his hip pocket had it blow out and shoot straight up in the air a good 12 to 15 feet before landing harmlessly. It was simply dumb luck that the bottle went straight up and we had an opportunity to clear the area.

[Destructo6]

You are not supposed to use Loctite or any thread sealant on the pin valve. Get a couple of strap wrenchs, a monkey wrench, a vise, soft jaws, a certified airsmith, the National Guard or whatever and torque the thing properly
What makes you say not to use loctite? If you are only supposed to torque the valve in place, what is the proper torque value? If you are supposed to use torque only, is the Consumer Product Safety Commission wrong:

CPSC also recommends that people make sure that any modifications to the paintball gun or the CO2 canister are done properly. For example, installing anti-siphon tubes involves removing and re- installing the canister valve. It is critical that the valve be re- installed with the appropriate adhesive and the proper torque.

[Dryden]

Destructo6,

The original thread from when this story broke in February is here:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=125502

Glenn Palmer's comments were


Just as a point of information...

DOT specs do not require "loktite".

Torque spec is 50 ft pounds dry or 35 ft pounds of torque with thread locker sealant.

My guess is that someone did the anti-siphon and scewed the valve into the tank only hand tight.TK's own was


Lock tight IS NOT suposed to be used on tank threads, they are suposed to be TORQUED on with a special strap wrench. If you take a reg off and put it back on expect to get sued if it hurts someone.If you can't trust TK or GP, who can you trust? :) I asked the exact same thing back then ... Loctite or no?

[Destructo6]

"Does not require" is not the same as "bad idea." If the tank to valve threads were left hand threaded, I would say loctite is optional.

I would like to see the latest DOT requirements for this type of valve. The DOT site is just a mess, though.

[RenagadeOfFunk]

...i haven't heard any nitrogen/n2/compressed air tank deaths or serious injuries...

...another reason why air is our friend...(dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, ect.) :cool:

[ryanshep]

...i haven't heard any nitrogen/n2/compressed air tank deaths or serious injuries...

...another reason why air is our friend...(dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, dirty co2, ect.) :cool:

agreed, i say if why are gonna ban or limit paintball, when all the deaths i have seen are mainly because of faulty co2 tanks, whether installed improperly or w/e. All they would have to do is ban co2. problem solved :o

[Rather]

And ban doing this. :p HAHA. Ok well its really a no bigge. but it stil shows you that compressed anything still isn't the safest thing to have to your shoulder and neck. :(

Don't Blow yourself up! (http://www.warpig.com/paintball/articles/news/090602HPAwarn.shtml)

[Target Practice]

...i haven't heard any nitrogen/n2/compressed air tank deaths or serious injuries...



I have a 68/30 PMI PE tank. One time, I had 'bout 2000 psi in it, and as I was unscrewing it from the ASA, the reg stayed in the ASA and unscrewed form the tank. Needless to say, I stopped unscrewing it, set it down, and got the heck out of Dodge. After all the pressure had bled off, I took it to an airsmith to get it fixed. I haven't had any problems since. I'd say I got freakin' lucky.

[NoFearPaintballer]

Hmmmmmm Seems like people dont pay attention to bleed holes! How come they dont make bleed holes on asa's anymore?

[Destructo6]

I haven't had any problems since. I'd say I got freakin' lucky.
No, you were paying attention and using your brain as I wish everyone had/will.

[Enemy]

they still do the bleed whole was blocked in this instance and it failed.. also under further consideration i think thread locker is bad on asas cuz it can block the bleed whole so torque specs work just people need to be more careful and less stupid!!!

[SoccerPaintball3]

i have never heard of anyone dying from a paintball related accident.

[Target Practice]

No, you were paying attention and using your brain as I wish everyone had/will.

Well, yeah, there is that too... ;)