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05-25-2004, 10:06 PM
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/art...24/171144.shtml
Gun Control Harming U.S. Troops
Jon E. Dougherty, NewsMax.com
Tuesday, May 25, 2004
Is it possible for bad domestic law to be a detriment to our fighting forces overseas – even to the point of getting some soldiers killed? Absolutely, say veterans, who want lawmakers to fix the problem ASAP.
According to a report in the July issue of Soldier of Fortune magazine, many of the ammunition magazines for the M-16/M-4 family of rifles used by troopers, along with 9 mm magazines for sidearms, are increasingly failing because they are either old or of poor quality.

The result, say troopers, is that ammunition fails to feed properly – a situation which can turn deadly in a hurry during a firefight.

'Varmint' Rifle Needs to Go

Add to the problem the fact that the M-16 family of weapons utilizes .223 caliber (5.56 mm) ammunition, which has proven too small and light for war.

"Sometime, before we get into a big war, the U.S. military needs to get rid of our current generation of 'varmint rifles' and start issuing real rifles," one small arms expert told John Farnam, author of SOF's "Combat Weaponcraft" column, a firearms instructor and a Vietnam vet who saw a lot of combat as a U.S. Marine.

Firearms maker Barrett has developed a 6.8 caliber rifle for civilian and police use, Farnam said, in anticipation of a military need. But so far, procurement of the weapon – or a similar, larger caliber rifle for troops – hasn't been publicly discussed by the Pentagon.

The M-16, which first appeared during the Vietnam War, replaced the M-14, a heavier rifle that was also a larger caliber (.308). Currently the Pentagon is testing a weapon called the XM8 Lightweight Modular Weapon System, "a new, lightweight assault rifle that employs many of the technologies already developed for the planned objective individual combat weapon, which would combine an infantry rifle with a grenade launcher," says National Defense Magazine.

Army Lt. Col. Mathew T. Clarke, who is in charge of testing the rifle, has so far been impressed with its performance. "I'm very excited about how the weapon has performed," he told the magazine.

The problem some critics see, however, is that the new rifle is chambered for the exact same lightweight .223 (5.56 mm) round.

Another rifle being examined is the XM29. But it fires a kinetic energy 5.56 mm round, and also comes with a 20 mm launcher that fires air-bursting grenades (to reach enemies behind defensive positions).

Another problem with the XM29 – it's weight. At 18 pounds, it was deemed too heavy for infantry. So Clarke has decided to speed development and cast the rifle and air-burst grenade launcher as two separate weapons for the time being. "Quite frankly, we have to wait for technology to catch up," he told the magazine.

But will it? Some weapons developers aren't so sure.

The small arms expert told Farnam few domestic weapons manufacturers want to make a new, larger-caliber rifle for the military alone. "With no prospect of civilian sales, there is zero interest in this undertaking among American manufacturers. . . " the weapons expert said.

The small arms maker and expert said a government official recently met with a group of manufacturers. The official said the Pentagon wanted to build some M-4 carbines chambered for a Russian caliber – 7.62 X 39 mm – noting that the smaller .223 caliber "has never met our [military] requirements."

The government official then produced a 30-round magazine, which held the Russian caliber ammunition but would fit an M-4 carbine. He then asked if any of the manufacturers present could make such a magazine, as the "magazine ban" of the early 1990s had driven the original maker out of business.

Said the small arms expert: "We all expressed our opinions about the magazine ban and the politicians who supported it and, to a man, assured [the government official] that none of us were interested, in the least, under present laws. He nodded his head in reluctant acknowledgement."

The small arms expert continued: "We thus see how the 'magazine ban' is significantly harming our troops and the nation's ability to successfully prosecute a war."

Bad Magazines

Existing magazines being used by U.S. troops are also faulty.

"A police officer and friend, just deployed to Iraq, is serving there now as a Marine officer," Jeff Chudwin, an associate of Farnam's, wrote.

"He is in the thick of the fighting. He has only two Beretta M9 magazines, and both have weak springs. Pistol magazines are in short supply there. Ones that actually work are in even shorter supply," Chudwin said.

In an attempt to get better magazines, the police officer/Marine attempted to procure some from his home department, but was unable to do so "due to the ban on purchasing high capacity (normal capacity) magazines," said Chudwin.

He said the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms [BATF] was asked to intervene, to approve the sale, but "they arrogantly told us, 'The military must take care of their own.'"

The result, Chudwin told Farnam, is that "the Marine officer cannot obtain additional magazines through the military, and we cannot support him from our end unless we send him 'Clinton clips'" – 10-round magazines (instead of the normal capacity 15-16 round magazines originally made for the M9) or magazines that were manufactured before the law banning them was signed by President Clinton.

In his column, Farnam also included comments from a U.S. soldier, currently on assignment in Iraq. The trooper related some of his experiences with the magazines, as well as a recommendation of how to overcome problems:

"If you are carrying an M9 when you go over [to Iraq], purchase some good magazines," the soldier writes. He recommended OEM or Beretta magazines.

"'Checkmate' magazines that the Marine Corps is currently issuing with your weapons are crap," the soldier continued. "During our first run in the desert, if I did not clean the magazines at least twice a day, it was a guaranteed failure to feed.

"It was rare to get off more than two shots without a feeding issue," the soldier continued. "Unacceptable. I personally don't want to find myself with a non-functioning pistol with the shooting starts."

'Stupid Gun Laws'

Writes Farnam: "Stupid gun laws, designed from the beginning for harassment and little else, are now interfering with our war effort, and no one at BATF, indeed the whole federal system, seems to care. While our Marines die, bureaucrats and politicians dither."

He recommends a course of action.

"When the 'magazine ban,' 'assault rifle' law was enacted, it had a built-in sunset clause so it could be allowed to die a natural death after it did not perform as promised," he wrote. "Not only has it failed to perform as promised as any sort of deterrent to criminal activity, we see where it is having ill effect on national defense issues. Contact your senators and congressmen today and tell them to let it sunset."

Unless Congress reauthorizes the ban, it will expire in September 2004. Republicans in both Houses have expressed an interest in allowing the law to die, while most Democrats have pushed for a renewal of the ban.

During his 2000 presidential campaign, President Bush has said he would sign a reauthorization of the bill if it reached his desk. Gun rights advocates – as well as a number of U.S. soldiers – are hoping it doesn't get that far

Halliday
05-25-2004, 10:29 PM
Wonderful. Kneejerk reactionary US Gov policies are now putting our troops in danger.

I suggest that the people who supported those new domestic laws be put on trial for treason!

Jack_Dubious
05-25-2004, 11:59 PM
So let me get this straight....the military is issued substandard/faulty equipment, so soliders try to use civilian equipment but the civilian stuff is still not up to thier needs because of the gun laws. So the article is blaming gun laws for thier problems!?!? Wtf kind of reasoning is this?
If they want to blame someone why dont they blame the military bureacrat/bean counter who is pating himself on the back for saving the military a couple of pennys by buying cheaply made magazines. This is the real problem. Our troops are not being equipped properly and im hard pressed to see how this article can try and blame *civilian* gun laws.

The article implies that because of the gun laws there are no more companies who can make a quality magazine to thier needs or that companies dont want to make a new weapon because there isnt a civilian market.

Now tell me are there no manufacturing companies in America who wouldnt jump at the thought of getting a military contract to stamp out magazines? Are gun magazines that expensive and complex to produce?

Its probably true that there would not be that great of a profit margin for a new rifle if there isnt a civilian market for it. But on the same hand there is no civilian market for tanks, helicopters, missles, etc...yet there doesnt seem to be a problem trying to find contractors for those systems.

Now im definately not standing up for these gun laws...hell i wish i had some extra high capacity clips for my gun. But i think this article is really stretching if its trying to blame our military procurement and supply problems upon these civilian gun laws.

JDub

Army
05-26-2004, 05:32 AM
Jdub, each Division, Brigade, Battalion, and Company have only so many procurment dollars to spend annually. Most already have a large allotment of issuable magazines, hence they do not, or cannot, buy any more. This leaves them with two options:

1) They carry on with 1970-1990 era made magazines which are all well used and abused. or:

2) Use needed funding for medical/tentage/vehicle maintenance/fuel to purchase a LIMITED supply of 30 round magazines (I don't think anyone even makes the 20 round type any longer).

Either option leaves you with a less than desireable situation.

In the mid nineties, we had to toss out thousands of "new-ish" magazines due to lousy manufacture. We could only refill 1/4 of that gap with new magazines with the "For Law Enforcement and Military Use Only" stamping on it. That stamping raised the price, per RIFLE magazine , $2. 9MM mags added nearly $3 to the price of the warning tag. Multiply that with hundreds if not thousands needed by a command, and you can see the problem of affording them.

No, the military does NOT have an unlimited budget.


As for the M16..it's not the rifle, which is arguably the finest battle rifle in use today, but the M885 ammo we must use. The 62gr bullet must be spun fast in order to properly stabilize, but that results in a high speed drill that simply pokes holes with minimal upset or damage. We need to return to a 55gr bullet, and slow the twist rate way down from it's current 1-7" twist, to a 1-12" twist. This will still allow superb accuracy, yet allow the bullet to instantly upset (tumble) upon contact with any object...notably, flesh. This tumbling upon entering a enemy body can and will result in terrible wounds that will incapacitate those hit. This is the twist rate of the original versions of the M16, and battle tests in Vietnam confirmed the lethality of a slow spun bullet.

And, before you say that "it's better to wound and enemy, cuz then two others must take him away"...wrong. A dead enemy cannot return fire, nor can he recuperate to fight another day. The tired old myth that the M16 was designed to wound rather than kill, is older and more worn out than even the 'Cockers shoot farther-faster stories.

Anyway, thank you Liberal America, for making my tough job harder than ever.

Rooster
05-26-2004, 05:38 PM
"Now tell me are there no manufacturing companies in America who wouldnt jump at the thought of getting a military contract to stamp out magazines? Are gun magazines that expensive and complex to produce?"

No, its not a good enough contract. That is why there is a push for the military to go completely "off-the-shelf". Nobody can survive on defense contracts alone, like they did during the cold war, with politics and war conditions being fickle.

logamus
05-26-2004, 09:47 PM
i agree with rooster and j dub. we should be ashamed that our government supplies our troops with substandard equipment. that is the bottom line. now, how we arrive at that bottom line is partially the fault of clinton era gun laws, but those gun laws should not be the ones bearing the total brunt of the blame. relaxing the mag laws and the like might bring back businesses to the military/police small arms market. but the quality of what the men in the field have now MUST be improved.

army, while having a slower muzzle velocity might improve the lethality of the round, i for one dont want to be shot by an m16/m4 regardless of what its shooting. :)

RingOfScale
05-27-2004, 12:45 AM
Army probably has a good idea what hes talking about, so i be agreeing with him on this one :)

Army
05-27-2004, 05:37 AM
Logamus, the 55gr bullet has a HIGHER velocity than the current 62gr AP bullet we are saddled with.

I'm talking about twist rate, the stabilizing spin induced by the rifling in the barrel. If it is spun too fast (which it currently is), the bullet will maintain stability through a human body. Slow the spin rate way down (1-12"), and it will upset and tumble end-over-end almost instantly upon contact with an object. Now, instead of a .224 hole in the bad guy, there is a 1/2" long buzz-saw tearing up things in a most deadly way. The bullet can no longer go straight, and will zig and zag in all directions and often enough break in two.

Early M16's from pre-1964, were reporting arms and heads being taken clean off the enemy from a single hit. That is due to the tumbling bullet.

The rifle is just fine, the beauracracy behind it sucks.

logamus
05-27-2004, 02:12 PM
i still stand by my statement of not wanting to be shot by it regardless of the round fired. :)

nippinout
05-27-2004, 02:50 PM
Army, have you read anything on the H&K M4?

http://www.hkpro.com/m4red.jpg

Army
05-27-2004, 04:05 PM
Nippinout, Doesn't matter who makes it. If it is a specified M4, then it will be made to mil-specs. That means while the machining may be of higher quality than most others (an H&K hallmark), the metallurgy and design will be identical to the other 20 million M16/AR15's.

nippinout
05-27-2004, 06:45 PM
Nippinout, Doesn't matter who makes it. If it is a specified M4, then it will be made to mil-specs. That means while the machining may be of higher quality than most others (an H&K hallmark), the metallurgy and design will be identical to the other 20 million M16/AR15's.

Specifically, I was talking about the gas system that H&K did to the upper.

painTech
05-27-2004, 07:45 PM
i votewe give everyone recoiless rocket launchers and let 'em have at it.

MaChu
05-27-2004, 10:15 PM
I like the M-16, but it seems that too much political issues are involved that keep it a little behind other rifles. Personally before Vietnam the US should have adopted a rifle that you may consider obsolete, I consider it the best post war WWII rifle. The FN FAL. 7x43mm ammunition, gas operated, just plain goodness. Update it, make it, give it to our soldiers and let them have a field day.

logamus
05-27-2004, 11:27 PM
http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le/mil-leimages/xm8_rightmed.jpg

the future is just a few months away (http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le/rifles-carbines/xm8.html)

im sure h&k would cut the us a good deal on a few of these in the meantime.
http://www.hk-usa.com/images/g36fullmain.jpg

Jeffy-CanCon
05-28-2004, 02:46 PM
I like the M-16, but it seems that too much political issues are involved that keep it a little behind other rifles. Personally before Vietnam the US should have adopted a rifle that you may consider obsolete, I consider it the best post war WWII rifle. The FN FAL. 7x43mm ammunition, gas operated, just plain goodness. Update it, make it, give it to our soldiers and let them have a field day.

The FN is nice, but is bigger & heavier and the ammo weighs more. Like all battle-rifles of that era, it is uncontrollable in automatic fire. It is supposed to be quite sensitive to dirt, too. African guerrillas who used the FN and the K&K G3 preferred the G3 as being more robust and easier to maintain. Finally, the FN was not invented in the USA. That last factor apparently causes political problems with congress.

7.62mm x 51mm

SlartyBartFast
05-28-2004, 04:22 PM
Gee, the general public can't buy tanks or self-propelled artillary. That must be why they have problems with those too. :rolleyes:

And grenades! Surely grenades would be made better if the public could buy them. :rolleyes:

US military has a bigger worry. They're running out of ammunition. :eek:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3754307.stm


2 BILLION rounds! :eek:

Army
05-28-2004, 05:41 PM
Oh pshaw!

We are not! The military has contingency plants for just this reason. If Lake City can't supply, then Winchester kicks in, then the Salt Lake City plant, THEN the Israelis pick up the slack.

We are FAR from running out of anything here.

Buff
05-29-2004, 08:28 AM
hey, so whats army's view on the .308 vs the .223?
is it true that M1A's are being issued to designated marksmen out in the desert?

PyRo
05-29-2004, 09:08 AM
[QUOTE=logamus]http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le/mil-leimages/xm8_rightmed.jpg

the future is just a few months away (http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le/rifles-carbines/xm8.html)

[QUOTE]


That looks like a toy.

TransMan
05-29-2004, 10:00 AM
In my opinion the best military rifle to date would have to be the AN-94 nothing compares in my book oh ya and im gonna agree with ARMY on everything cept the M-16 being the best military rifle. :D

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/AN-94

skife
05-30-2004, 06:33 PM
i herd the army was switching over to the M-4 Carbine instead of the M-16
but who knows.


Clinton = douche bag, i dont see how the laws are supposed to stop terrorisum or anything, if anything they would just carry more smaller mags if they wanted to spread terror