Mag user... Not very happy (lvl 10 ruins)

[nato]

But I'm not very sad. You see, I have owned mags since I could afford one and love them. I found something though. The point in which mags got better and worse at the same time was when the lvl10 came around. It's a great upgrade but causes most problems in my mags along with my teammates. I have found that once you set a lvl10 you CANNOT forget it. Every 4,000 shots or so my lvl10 decides it wants a different carrier or something like that. I even tested by having AGD set my lvl10 and sure enough after a couple of thousand shots it dies on me and I had to completely change my lvl10 setup. I own an xmag and I want to be done buying/trading different markers. Ive gone through them all and the mag had what I needed. So this is my question... can the lvl10 be consistant enough where I can set it and forget it or do I have to figure out a way to go lvl7 again???


N.A.T.O.

p.s.- lvl7 isnt bad considering that I shoot e-mode, have ACE, and a victory board halo

[Load SM5]

Well, my level 10 has been running with the same carrier setup for around 6 months now without a hitch, and it's the only gun I use. So yea, it's possible. If you are'nt having an issue with level 7 then go back to it, but watch that last few balls.
Personally any carrier swapping is a small price to pay for no chopping. I think mag owners get a little spoiled. Other guns can have more maintenance, even more frequently. (Ever try and get the front reg assy. of a timmy to grease a cup seal after every 2 cases? sheesh)

[pointm@n]

I've been shooting my emag with the same carrier for a year now. I can safely say that at least 20,000 (10 months x 2000 balls) balls have been through it, probably more since in the summer months I played pretty much every weekend.

[cledford]

But I'm not very sad. You see, I have owned mags since I could afford one and love them. I found something though. The point in which mags got better and worse at the same time was when the lvl10 came around. It's a great upgrade but causes most problems in my mags along with my teammates. I have found that once you set a lvl10 you CANNOT forget it. Every 4,000 shots or so my lvl10 decides it wants a different carrier or something like that. I even tested by having AGD set my lvl10 and sure enough after a couple of thousand shots it dies on me and I had to completely change my lvl10 setup. I own an xmag and I want to be done buying/trading different markers. Ive gone through them all and the mag had what I needed. So this is my question... can the lvl10 be consistant enough where I can set it and forget it or do I have to figure out a way to go lvl7 again???


N.A.T.O.

p.s.- lvl7 isnt bad considering that I shoot e-mode, have ACE, and a victory board halo

Dude, no offense but what's the problem? It takes 5 minutes to change a level 10 carrier. You can even do it on the field with a little preperation. I carry a very small (key chain sized) crescent wrench and the carrier i need (if you're at 2.0 you KNOW that the next carrier you'll need is 1.5), and a 1/8 allen wrench. That can go in your pocket - and if you carry a backpack (for paint water, other tools, etc) then you can also drag along a small towel to work on and a bottle of oil. Step 1, turn air off. Step 2, remove air line. Step 3, remove field strip screw and take off valve. Step 4, use cresent wrench to remove power tube tip, Step 5, use field strip screw to remove old carrier, Step 6, use field strip screw to push out L10 oring from old carrier, Step 7, insert oring into new carrier and reinsert into power tube, Step 8 - reassemble.

I can now do it in about 3 minutes. FWIW, I've never had a carrier oring just stop working in the middle of a game. They always go after either: A) airing up for the first time on a day of play, after the marker has sat for more then 30 minutes, or after getting a new fill.

Hope it doesn't seem like I'm jumping on you - it's just you're making a mountain out of a molehill. The L10 is one of the most inovative products ever in paintball - I hate to see someone make a thread downing it because they don't want to make 5 minutes worth of effort to keep it in tune. Also, FWIW I remember the day when cockers dropped out of time at least once a day - so five minutes for a simple, stright forward procedure is pretty minimal to me. Also, a HALO won't stop chopping on a L7 mag - if you short stroke, you've short stroked.


-Calvin

[athomas]

Any gun that you tune to the very edge of performance will have issues if not maintained at that edge. There is no room for error.

The carrier shouldn't have to be changed once you find the correct one for your setup. The key to consistent operation of the level 10 bolt is to make sure the differential pressure between the spring force and the force on the bolt stem is larger than any frictional forces that may occur between the carrier o-ring and the bolt stem. If you want level 10 performance without the maintenance headache, use the shortest spring or use the middle spring and cut it back a bit. Make it stiffer than the short spring but lighter than the middle spring. Add a drop of oil down the powertube every once in a while. Reducing spring tension increases differential pressure and oil reduces friction.

I've been using the same carrier and o-ring for about 80,000 shots now. I did have to change the bolt spring though. I wore mine out. But thats normal wear and tear on a mag.

[shartley]

I don’t know why folks want to rag on the player who does NOT want to have to mess with his/her marker… let alone during a day out playing paintball.

To each their own. I too do not want to mess with any of my markers on the day I take them out to play with them. The same as I don’t want to mess with my car the day I want to take a drive in the country. The same way I don’t want to mess with my stereo the day I want to play some music. I think folks get my point.

Again, to each their own.

Heck that is also why I don’t own a Cocker.

So why is it now that some folks seem to get upset when some customers who are used to not having to do a darn thing to their Mags for them to work right get a little aggravated because NOW they have to? Did anyone think that maybe part of the reason they got a Mag was because they ran perfectly out of the box and you didn’t have to tinker with them?

This is, however, why my LX kit is still on my office shelf (Thanks Tuna for the kit, I still may put it in at some point.). That and when I play at home, I can only get one tank of air, and the LX uses more (even if slightly) than the L7. When I get a scuba setup this may change though.

Some folks are tinkerers, others are not. And for me, once I get my marker a certain way, I want it to STAY that way (or at least for a long time). So come on guys, please cut him a little slack. No amount of posting how “easy” it is to take care of the issue takes away the fact that they HAD issues. And I think we all know how frustrating it can be to have your marker(s) act up while out on the field.

(ADDED: My comments were not just about this thread. But I have seen similar things happen almost every time someone mentions a problem with their LX, or displeasure with it…. for any number of reasons.)

[the electrician]

some people luck out, and some people get the finnicky set-up. that's just how it is.

but I'm convinced that I can get any mag, and any lvl 10 to shoot great.

I'm gonna tell you what I had to do, because my lvl 10 would not stop leaking, unless I used a super tight carrier.

go to the hardware store, plumbing section, and get the same size o-ring used in the carrier. it will be a black, rubber o-ring. they are buna-n rubber and are much softer. they seal very easy and have alot less friction doing it. they are very cheap, so don't buy just one, buy several. more than likely they are a bit bigger and will use a one or two size larger carrier, but check it like the lvl 10 instructions say to do.

they CANNOT BE USED WITH CO2 !

but they are perfect for air. that cured my lvl 10 problems. follow the lvl instructions again of course, and you will get it running right.

I know they don't sell the lvl 10 with these soft rubber o-rings, because you can't use them with co2 and they don't last quite as long. but I've been using the same one for cases upon cases. I think they should toss one or two in there, and it would stop alot of this nonsense.

I use them in my on/off too. a lot less friction.

[gibby]

Could just be the break in period. I know I was going through that when I first set up my level 10. But once the o rings were broken in I hadn't needed to muck with the carriers any more. Just make sure they are oiled before you play and you'll be set.

[Kevmaster]

i too had a great level 10 setup...over 30,000 balls with no changes whatsoever. sold the mag and the level 10 with it. that was a 'proto' level ten. then i got an x-mag. the level 10 for that has to be changed every so often. don't know why specifically...but it is interesting.

i think it may be hit or miss

[cphilip]

It could be variations in batches of O-rings. Some wearing faster than others or that sort of thing. I would try another batch if mine were wearing in so much as to do that. And they will wear more if you don't oil them often. I would have a look at that particular bolt and Powertube too. Might be something going on there. But in my experience, after I get one to settle down and well broken it, it stays forever. At least so far mine have.

I often see people make mistakes assuming its their level 10 and really end up adjusting it when its a sticking reg pin assembly or something. You can overcome some of those sorts of things when you mess with it and think you solved the problem. When in fact you did not and just introduced another wandering variable into the mix and it gets confusing. You can even get odd things with paint to barrel matching or missaligned barrels that people attribute to Level 10 set up. Almost everyone first jumps to the conclusion when their marker misses a shot or refuses to shoot that its level 10. And half the time that is the wrong thing to start messing with first.

One time my kid thought his problem with not reaching crono velocity was level 10. Shooting way too low. And he turns up the velocity and before he can get near even to 280 he starts venting out the back. So he goes and messes with it until he finaly gets it to shoot close to 280. Thinks everything is fine. But he gets home and tells me about is and I think "what? That was well broken in and should not have done that". So I go take a look. He forgot to put the insert into the Scepter! He was trying to overcome a huge paint to barrel missmatch. By forcing more air in. But he did it! And so there ya go... In the end that level 10 setup was returned to exactly what it was before that.

[Butterfingers]

But I'm not very sad. You see, I have owned mags since I could afford one and love them. I found something though. The point in which mags got better and worse at the same time was when the lvl10 came around. It's a great upgrade but causes most problems in my mags along with my teammates. I have found that once you set a lvl10 you CANNOT forget it. Every 4,000 shots or so my lvl10 decides it wants a different carrier or something like that. I even tested by having AGD set my lvl10 and sure enough after a couple of thousand shots it dies on me and I had to completely change my lvl10 setup. I own an xmag and I want to be done buying/trading different markers. Ive gone through them all and the mag had what I needed. So this is my question... can the lvl10 be consistant enough where I can set it and forget it or do I have to figure out a way to go lvl7 again???


N.A.T.O.

p.s.- lvl7 isnt bad considering that I shoot e-mode, have ACE, and a victory board halo

I have had the same setup since I got it... I just polished the piss out of the bolt stem when i got it. I run a 1.5 carrier and no shims been that way forever no leaks no problems.

[Skoad]

Your in about the same situation I was when I had my emag. First 2 times I played it was perfect, then a leak started. Swapped out carrier, fixed it. Next time i played, leaked again. This time I could not get any of the carriers to keep it from leaking, tried swaping outter and inner orings, different shim configurations...just had to play through the leak for 2 more outtings. Next time out wasn't leaking until halfway through the day. Overall I got fed up with it. Closest place to get a tank fill was an hour and a half away, I can't play on a 68/3000 fill with the gun constantly leaking ALONG with the level 10 not being able to shoot properly under 800 psi.

Another problem was I could NOT get a good pinching configuration either. With every combination of parts I could possibly try, I could only get the gun to fire with the middle spring, which wasn't exactly soft on the paint. It would pinch most of the time but I absolutely HATE breaks of any kind, can't stand them.

It was neat when I had it, but looking back I kinda wished I never bought it and got something else in the pricerange instead.

[tony3]

My lvl 10 had a lot to be desired. It leaked quite a bit, but I love tinkering so it wasn't a problem. For most people though, they would of thrown the gun out the window. Personally, if I had an xmag, I'd probably switch to lvl 7.

[TheTramp]

After about a year I just had to go to a smaller carrier last weekend. Not too much work for the benifits of NO chopping.

EVERY other gun I've ever owned takes more work to keep it running.

[magman007]

Alot of you are still missing something very important about level 7. Not only is level 10 softer in its first stage, there fore making it chop proof, it also has less force in its second stage, the part where the ball is actually fired down the range.

Going back to level 7 will cause you to have breaks, whether the ball is missfed or not. the reason for this being is that, when the bolt goes to push the ball into the breach, it will hit it so much faster, and with so much more force than with the level 10. The level 10 slowly and lightly moves the ball into the breach, then when it hits stage too, it speeds u a bit, and sends the balld own the range with a blast of air.

level 7 just slams it in and fires it. Level 7 is too forcefull, and that slamming of the bolt into the poor waiting ball, can crack the ball, and well, there you go, barrel break.


Remember why the old super bolt sucked and caused even more chops? its because it got even faster in an old level 7 setup, and would crack the balls even more.

there ya go! stick with level 10, it isnt hard man!

[Big_Chops]

i oiled my gun frequently as i see others do. i made it a point to oil the bolt stem and i shoot about 8000 paintball through it without one single problem

[Halliday]

I got my LX setup on July 3rd, 2002. I set it up in my E-Mag that day. In all the cases of paint I've shot since then, last Sat was the first and only time I had to change the carrier. I had been having leaks down the barrel and no amount of oil seemed to stop it. I went from a 2 to a 1.5.

Pretty consistant for me.

[Jerhew]

once you've got the lx tuned, lube is the most important thing.
lube will protect your orings from wear, and thus keep your lx from leaking...

and people, use good lube...
get some kc troublefree or some nice airtool oil
and use it!
2 drops in the asa every weekend you play
if that's too much maintanance for ya, well maybe you should look into making chess youre main hobby ;)

[cphilip]

Alot of you are still missing something very important about level 7. Not only is level 10 softer in its first stage, there fore making it chop proof, it also has less force in its second stage, the part where the ball is actually fired down the range.

Going back to level 7 will cause you to have breaks, whether the ball is missfed or not. the reason for this being is that, when the bolt goes to push the ball into the breach, it will hit it so much faster, and with so much more force than with the level 10. The level 10 slowly and lightly moves the ball into the breach, then when it hits stage too, it speeds u a bit, and sends the balld own the range with a blast of air.

level 7 just slams it in and fires it. Level 7 is too forcefull, and that slamming of the bolt into the poor waiting ball, can crack the ball, and well, there you go, barrel break.


Remember why the old super bolt sucked and caused even more chops? its because it got even faster in an old level 7 setup, and would crack the balls even more.

there ya go! stick with level 10, it isnt hard man!

Not so. It doesn't happen that way at all. The ball is not slammed in by breach by the bolt... it falls in. Or is forced in by the stack of waiting balls. The bolt is back and waiting at that point. The bolt does nothing to seat the ball in the breach but get out of the way.

Its the waiting ball that is "nipped" by the edge of the fast moving bolt while firing the ball in the breach that breaks later down the line. Not the one being fired at the time. That "waiting ball" is partialy in the way and often gets nicked by the bolt as it goes by. A portion of them fracture and are ready to break. Some make it out ok some don't. Some get oriented accidently but correctly so they do not get hit with the blast of air just right to fracture them and some do break. Ya never know. Luck of the draw.

So your right in your conclusion but not in your exact facts of how it happens. And the bolt returns at the same speed as level 10. It also travels its last half of the firing stoke as fast. Pretty much. That the uncorked section of it travel. Its the slower corked travel that when it hits the "waiting ball" causes little or no damage so that there are far less, if not none, that break when they finaly are fired out the barrel.

[shivors]

The reason I havent moved to a high class of marker from my Spyder is for this very reason. I got my Spyder...oiled the bolt and hammer and played all day. I have owned three Spyders over 8-9 years and have never had a single on-field problem (I tried to add a PE reg and it blew while I was chronoing).

I do perform indepth maintenance after every outing but still that is a hell of a track record for 100.00, 140.00, and 210.00 markers.

I am dieing to get a Mag but am very cautious. I REALLY dont want to have to tune this or tweak that to just get a working marker.

[Digits]

I would never get an x-mag over todays high end markers.. Probablly not even an e-mag..

LX is cool and all... But I can set my trix to be close to the stiff spring of the LX, and it has eyes so it won't chop.. I havn't even had to clean the breach yet at all threw about 4 cases.. And I doubt I ever will

[1ofkind]

Guys I think its time to admit, these new electros are starting to look sweeter. The alais timmy is so light and fast, i'm dieing for one!

[Lohman446]

You know, now that you mention it I maintain three e-mags for myself and two other people.

Mine I never change the level ten carrier - and theres about 30K shots since i last did.

Other one - never touch it, but he shoots slow and there is probably less than 20K on it

Other one - I change every so often, but last week after changing it I noticed I had misdiagnosed the problem, the bolt spring was weak, easy fix.

[Athius]

lvl x is cool but the thing that sucks is that made my automag much more of a gashog than it was before.

[RenagadeOfFunk]

Personally any carrier swapping is a small price to pay for no chopping. I think mag owners get a little spoiled. Other guns can have more maintenance, even more frequently. (Ever try and get the front reg assy. of a timmy to grease a cup seal after every 2 cases? sheesh)

...aww come on...intimidators aren't that bad...after all they are light, fast, advanced, efficent, and sexy...

nate, you might want to just deal with it like i did with my rt pro and e-mag...its not a hassel if you keep your carriers in order and just switch to the next lower/higher one...which ever is needed...

[Tobe2be]

well im lazy and didnt read the whole thread i just read the first post and a post bout setting a trix like a level ten.

ok emag/xmags where WAY ahead of there times. my xmag can keep up with most markers in the game right now... of course you have these cheater boards that help faster rate of fires but that doesnt matter much to me. i do agree with the level ten acting up every now and then but mines shuts up with some love juice(oil).so i think its a small price to pay for a marker that has been out as long as electros have been in the market without any DRASTIC changes besides asthetics and a fake eye system that doesnt work very good.

[joez]

When i had my classic valve on my E-mag, i had put nearly 40K shots on that valve when it was on the E. Then i traded for an X Biggest mistake ever. I had a number 2000 or so minimag valve on my marker, and once i got it set, i never had to touch it again. I played with it mech for a while before the E-mag conversion, so it had even more shots on it than that. Add another 5-10K for when it was a bassic mech mag.

That was a sweet setup, it never chopped, it was plenty fast, yeah it was heavy, but i could deal with it. Everyone who ever shot it loved the way it shot. Plus it had the cool factor, it was different. Nate i think even you shot it when it still had the classic on it. And if i remember right, it wasnt too long after that you bought another E-mag.

But what happened? I got caught up in the hype and bought an X valve. The level 10 has never been right, and its really making me mad. I even put my old LX setup in it, and that lasted less than 3K shots. The board is still capped at the same ROF, it still has the same barrel, but the X-valve always leaks. I kept dropping carier sizes, but guess what happened now? Im on the smallest carrier. What happens when this one starts leaking in 5K shots like all the rest have? I loved the LX for the first year i played with it on my classic, but this last year or so has really started to agrevate me. Ive tried more oil, less oil, everything. But it always comes back. Hence why it is now my backup to my project tribal.

To be perfectly honest, i am very much considering going back to a Level 7, putting a ULE body on it, and running a morlock with eyes. /Rant off

[nato]

First of all I am a tinkerer. But I do not appreciate having to change my lx setup 10 minutes before the start of a tourney. Sure, I know I can fix it within 3 minutes but it doesn’t mean that those 3 minutes are not important. Heck just this Monday I had to change my lx before practice and it took about 2 minutes. The fact is this. The lvl10 is great but still confuses the heck out of a lot of mag users. It fixes problems like chopping but it does bring more maintenance and problems to the table.

If you play professionally and the stakes are higher then why should it be reasonable for you to not be able to depend on your marker and expect to have to fix it before the event. In no way am I downing anything or anyone... I’m just saying I have higher expectations now that I have a marker from AGD worth 1k+

Hope you guys understand my reasoning.

N.A.T.O.

P.S.- I thoroughly clean my markers and understand how to repair them and every tournament this season I have had to fix my xmag the day of the event.

[Tobe2be]

wow i hope this doesnt happen to me this weekend... but i see your point a 1k marker shouldnt give that much problems... hey ive learned to deal with it not sayin you need to but just saying it

[cledford]

But what happened? I got caught up in the hype and bought an X valve. The level 10 has never been right, and its really making me mad. I even put my old LX setup in it, and that lasted less than 3K shots. The board is still capped at the same ROF, it still has the same barrel, but the X-valve always leaks. I kept dropping carier sizes, but guess what happened now? Im on the smallest carrier. What happens when this one starts leaking in 5K shots like all the rest have? I loved the LX for the first year i played with it on my classic, but this last year or so has really started to agrevate me. Ive tried more oil, less oil, everything. But it always comes back. Hence why it is now my backup to my project tribal.


For the most part I'll say that people complaining about tweaking level 10 are just complaining too much in my book. Especially the 'Trix guy - you may not need to tweak L10 - but you DO NEED to tear your marker apart after EVERY day of play to grease - I don't exactly care that user friendly.

That having been said this thread brings up and interesting point. On my old Emag (stainless) valve with LX I only ever needed to change the LX carrier once - from 2.5 to 2. The valve was replaced with and X - but now doubles as a ReTro valve in a mech mag and is still running a 2.

In my X valve, I've had to change carriers from 2.0 all of the way down to .5 in each half size increment. I lube the power tube stem with KC, I run the short spring, and have been using the same oring. In short, although there is no reason THE VALVE is causing faster wear on the oring, I can say I change the LX carrier MUCH more on the X then my older Emag valve. In my mind that says that the orings supplied with the X valves must be from a different lot and are wearing faster.

In any event - to the person who asked what to when you run out of carriers? :confused: Get another oring - it's that simple - their not meant to last for ever and cost $1 at the AGD store.

-Calvin

[OysterBoy]

I think he was talking about his carriers and how hes on the smallest size. What will he do?

This thread is one of the many reasons that I plan to LX and ULT my classic and be done with buying valves. I will never need more then 16bps. Is the RT more efficient? I havent heard anything to prove this.

[cledford]

The carrier is only to control the size of the power tube oring. Each carrier size reduces the inside diameter of the oring by incrementally squeezing it tighter. As the power tube oring wears material is worn away, requiring a decrease in carrier size to make up for the difference (the worn oring needs to be squeezed more to seal) once you run out of carriers and get a leak the power tube oring is completely worn out and needs to be replaced. I believe with the current LX/Xvalve kits you get 3 power tube orings (2 for certain) after that they cost 1 dollar from the Airgun online store. When starting out with a newly replaced oring you go back up to carrier #2 (at least) and possibly #2.5. This give you at least 5 steps (carriers: #2, 1.5, 1, .5, 0) until you need to replace the power tube oring again.

Also, with regard to ULT on the classic - I wouldn't waste the time. I know several *claim* to have it working decently - but I've watched Rob_AGD struggle to get one working and he is a preeminent AGD tech, it is not easy, not very stabile (IMHO), and not recommended. For the most part the few I've seen in person that were "working" were WAY to easy to short stroke in my opinion. That may be because I have a RT based mech that was a ULT in it and it works much better - but who knows.

-Calvin

[davidnj]

4000 shots seems like a very very low amount to have to tune your level 10 at. What spring are you using? Ive put over 40k shots thru two level 10 mags without having to change anything yet. Try out with a different spring maybe. If you still have issues then I guess all I can say is keep your carriers organized by size so you can quickly swap the new one you need out.

btw what is your marker doing at around 4000 shots? Leaking down the barrel? Bolt stick? Something else? Maybe somebody will recognize what your issue is if you give a few more details as to what the exact problem is at ~4k shots. Also how many shims and what carrier are you using currently?



So why is it now that some folks seem to get upset when some customers who are used to not having to do a darn thing to their Mags for them to work right get a little aggravated because NOW they have to? Did anyone think that maybe part of the reason they got a Mag was because they ran perfectly out of the box and you didn’t have to tinker with them?

The same as I don’t want to mess with my car the day I want to take a drive in the country. The same way I don’t want to mess with my stereo the day I want to play some music. I think folks get my point.


Dont mean to pick one thing out, you did mention your post was directed towards other threads also. Fine, that old mag might have worked fine every time with a drop of oil. It may have had some chop issues, it may not have. If you decide to go buy a lvl X kit or a whole new mag that has lvl X in it and all of a sudden find yourself with something that needs some tuning, guess what? You no longer have a lvl 7 bolt you have a lvl 10 bolt and tinkering is the price you pay for no more\reduced chops. If you want that out of the box and on the field with a drop of oil and 0 tinkering, go get a mag with level 7.

Go buy a Honda\Nissan\Ford\etc for that drive in the country if you dont want to tinker with it. Don't drop in a nitrous kit, flowmaster cat back, cold air intake, etc and not expect some initial work and fine tuning down the road. Dont put a performance enhancing part in that car if you want to keep that 'out of the lot and onto the street' sorta idea. Same with a stereo. Go buy a reciever and CD player and some spearkers. It'll work just fine. But don't add an amp and equalizer and not expect to have to do some initial work and fine tuning as you listen to your music.

Same with a mag. Dont go upgrading things if you dont like the idea of having to tinker with it and possibly fine tune it at a later date (ie leave it on the shelf like you did) At least imo. :P

Ive done level 10 setups on 3 markers now. If you go back and look thru my posts my first time was a horrible experience. Probably 3 hours+ to get it in and tuned. However, hehe, had I been paying attention it would have been 10 minute jobs like the other 2. I had my ULE body ball detent in too tight and it was stopping the bolt making me think I had to change shims\carriers.