The downfall of paintball?

[mag-hatter]

Ring around the tourneys
pockets with no moooooney
bankrupt bankrupt, we all fall down

I've noticed lately that paintball has been turning a few heads AWAY, rather than bringing new life into the mix.

I'm talking about the people who have been playing a while and have begun to stop playing as much due to no time to play, or lack of money. Its this way for around where i live, at least, and a few other parts of the country where my friends have reported this. There are new people coming into the sport, yes, but for how long will they be able to dish out money? ive been playing for 4 years, each year getting tighter and tighter with how many balls per day i shot because i couldnt affort to play much anymore :(. It also resulted in me downgrading to a mech gun which i thought i'd never do but low and behold i did. Now, i never go anymore and am going to quit the sport i love because theres no time or money to do it, but as for the rest of you, i've noticed the general idea of the sport is "well, is it really worth the 80 some bucks i spend every time i go?!"

another thing is how fast the sport has been growing. I think its been way too fast, and its going to collapse. this is just something i think will happen because all of these new high end "will shoot faster than ________" guns that are setting a higher rate of fire standard for fields. i think eventually the technology is going to get so out of hand that people will just stop playing because they cant afford a gun that can do that, and get owned every game of the day at hte field. Im not just saying this on account that i always get shot out in games by dudes with 402p3402934 dollar guns, im saying it because a good amount of people at the field get shot out all the time, most of them noobers, or family man types that cant afford anything better than an e-spyder or tippman. I think eventually everyone will either put the gun up on the shelf or sell. i personally hope we all revert back to pump traccers or maverics (WITH ACE!!!!!!!!!!!)

[OysterBoy]

Totally agree with you.

[t33kyboy]

natural selection.

only the dedicated, strong, and rich survive in this sport.

[FooTemps]

natural selection.

only the dedicated, strong, and rich survive in this sport.

Everyone runs out of money sometime, including the companies.

[Ov3rmind]

I'm talking about the people who have been playing a while and have begun to stop playing as much due to no time to play, or lack of money.
:(

That's me.

[LudavicoSoldier]

Meh...play stock class.

[Falcon1]

I see what you are saying, but I dont think the sport is going to drop. Look at the good side more pepole know about paintball then ever now.

oh and you dont have to go all out and lay down $80 to play paintball. Just play with some friends some times. You know 3 vs. 3 or so on.

[mag-hatter]

im just comparing it to the stock crash of 29 (i think it was???) where all was good and all was merry adn one day it all went down because of too much growth, and people not having enough money to support the industries!

[gc82000]

OK why are you dropping $80 anyways when you go play. This I dont understand. The most that I have ever spent was $64, and that included air($3), case of paint($58), and field fees($3). But usually I only spend only 36 for 1/2 case(30), air(3) and fees(3). Also how many times a week do you play. Limit your play time or only play with a limited number of people like Falcon1 suggested.

[RenagadeOfFunk]

...i agree...i am already broke registering for tournies..but on top of that i have to purchase paint...then food...fills...spare parts (just in case)...back up gun setups (just in case)...ect...

...and they say money can't buy happiness...

(it could if someone just put a price tag on it)...
"We need a price check on happines in lane 5"

[Duck Hunt]

For one I haven't played any tourneys yet, I plan on it though. Paintball started out like every other sport, some people invented it and it caught on. Look at basketball, no one ever thought when it first came around that we'd now have "ballers" getting 10 mil per game.

Paintball is about the only sport now that YOU an average player can start a team and ACTUALLY become a semi pro team and play world cups and such. I'm sure sooner or later it'll become like every other sport out there but I'm going to enjoy it while it lasts.

I pay 65 bucks for a case of premiums and that usually lasts me 2 weekends, I'm gonna take a dip in the tourney pool and hopefully it'll work out for the best but if it doesn't I'm sure as hell I'll have fun doing it ;-)

Sean

[mag-hatter]

OK why are you dropping $80 anyways when you go play. This I dont understand. The most that I have ever spent was $64, and that included air($3), case of paint($58), and field fees($3). But usually I only spend only 36 for 1/2 case(30), air(3) and fees(3). Also how many times a week do you play. Limit your play time or only play with a limited number of people like Falcon1 suggested.

maybe because some people (HI, IM ONE OF THEM) pay 20 dollars for field fees! thats the best rate around here

[minimagjim]

then again you cant buy skill either, when you run out of money find other ways to play that will save you cash. Play pump or limit yourself on paint, most of us all have our own equipment so there is no problem. What i do see is that many of us that are strapped for cash spend it unwisely say either spending it on something other than paintball and regreting it or the worst is buying something you dont need!!! I mean if you got a crappy old pack and want a new one but that means not being able to play a couple games, than dont buy the pack. If it works dont worry yourself...I got plenty of things on my wishlist packs, tanks, barrels, and more, But i dont exactly NEED it right now.

This is what you gotta do. Decide what you NEED from what you WANT. that usually solves alot since you wont spend money on something you want, instead of something you need!

[Destructo6]

Cycles.

Personally, there have been times where I played weekly for a while, then stopped entirely for as long as a year. Mostly due to money and time: have one but not both at the same time. This has been going on since the first time I played, 12 years ago.

The sport itself can be expected to go through cycles. Style (splash annodizing, anybody?), gametype, gear, etc. I don't see a bust cycle coming up.

Maybe you are seeing a cycle in the sport, or just in yourself. It's hard to say.

[Won Hunglo]

Too much money for paintball? You guys should have been around in the early 90's when a case of paint was $130 before you even through about filed fees & fills. Now you did get 2500 in a case back then. My original pre Classic Mag cost about 500 before I set it up. The same gun is half that now. Now I play & it rarely cost me over 60 bucks for a case of paint & field fee with free fills. Paintball is now dirt cheap!

[ZapTheMad]

Any sport is expensive when you want to be competitive at high levels. Pick one and think about what it costs to play with the best.

It's the same thing with paintball. You can do it cheap but you really aren't being serious about playing at higher levels.

[Mr. Frodo]

Paintball is definitely not a cheap sport, but you have to look at things from a different perspective. What's the demographics here? Is it mostly high school and a lot of people in college? Maybe there's also a handfull who post who are past college and are working. I can see your point about not having the money or time to play, but I think that affects the former group more than the latter. People like me (I'm part of the latter group) used to play a lot in high school, got out of it, and are now coming back. There's also so many people I know who would like to play but can't find enough people to go with them.

I see golf as being sort of a parallel to paintball. Both sports require an equipment expense as well as a field fee. But unilke golf, an average day at the field doesn't cost $135 and a decent marker is much less than a set of Callaways. Furthermore, who actually likes playing 18 or even 9 holes by themself, let alone do it every weekend? The only reason why the people I know play golf is because golfers seem to find each other and setup an outing to see who is better. It also helps when most of them have a set of clubs collecting dust somewhere.

My point is that paintball isn't a typical sport, like soccer or hockey, where you expect to see the same faces every weekend and have regulated leagues. It's one of those sports that's really fun when you're able to get the gang together, then afterwards talk about how so-and-so got bunkered.

I think that paintball is slowly getting to that level. More and more people know about it, and a lot of people I know would love to do it. And after playing for the first time, they want to play again, but it gets old too quickly when you're constantly dealing with people you don't know. Like I said, what's the point of bunkering someone (or even getting a hole-in-one) when no one you know is there to see it?

[RingOfScale]

i gotta say, most people who can afford a 1500 dollar timmy can afford paying 50 a month for paint. the faster the guns, the more paint the use, but the faster guns also cost more, so if you cant afford the paint you probably cant afford the gun. i know this means the player would be stuck with a worse gun, and be at a dissadvantage, and i'm not quite sure what to say to them... not quite sure how to help you ...

paintbal isnt getting more expensive, you said the downfall of paintball, but if anything, it should be getting cheaper to play over time, because higher volume of paint sales = cheaper paint prices ( right? )

and if people play once, and quit because they cant afford it, we arnt really losing anyone, because we never really had them ... you know what mean ? i doubt many of the people who play on a regular basis ( 6 + times a year minimum ) are gonna quit anytime soon because of money issues, because most wouldnt have started and invested in a gun if they couldnt work over at least that much cash to play.

-ringOfScale

[OysterBoy]

Hey, uhm, I totally agree. Local prices:

20 - Entry Fee
10 - All Day Air
140 - Case
10 - 100 Balls

This is not cheap, which is why I very rarely play.

My automag WAS 400 brand new, so dont be telling me that the price has dropped that drastically. Paintball is not dirt cheap, at least not for me.
I think I'm gonna go cry now..

[mag-hatter]

yeah paintball will never GET dirt cheap because it requires high quality stuff to play with. replace high end paint with crappy paint and you're going to have a bad day. the other thing about paintball is those who survive college and high school play are then getting into the years that they're going to get married in, and that means more responsability and time with the family/wife/business, which means less time on the field, save for a few people who are able to juggle their scheudles. but then there is yet ANOTHER factor! getting older, and not being as fast, and getting sore easy, and getting overrun by whipper snappers!!!!!! its a game crafted for the young who have money.

[Dayspring]

I know it's canadian $, but if you're paying $140 for paint, you're getting ripped off.


Hey, uhm, I totally agree. Local prices:

20 - Entry Fee
10 - All Day Air
140 - Case
10 - 100 Balls

This is not cheap, which is why I very rarely play.

My automag WAS 400 brand new, so dont be telling me that the price has dropped that drastically. Paintball is not dirt cheap, at least not for me.
I think I'm gonna go cry now..

[Jackel411]

Wow.. complaining about cheap paint prices hehe...

Lucky you guys dont live out on LOng Island.. were basically over run with cousins paintball stores , every one shoots speed out of the box matrixs 'cause were right next to Gen E ( another cousins company ) There are two stores out on LI that actually are not a Cousins mine and Island Paintballs..

But because of the total covarage on LI CP gets away with charging LUDACRIS prices for paint and entry... why? only decent game in town for now... Lets try 25 for entry , and 100 for a case of paint... lest we for get you cant even try and compete against a 3.5 foot tall 13 year old kid that packs more fire power and more paint cause mommy drives a Mercedes.

And dont get me wrong Im not whining about fire power... I have my own view on the sport.. I young 21. Ive been playing for 11 years.. ( second generation my father played from 85 and still does! ) Time for boldness! THE SPORT WAS RUINED WHEN WE AS AN INDUSTRY A) LET KIDS UNDER 16 PLAY B) MADE EL CHEAPO HIGH ROF PAINT GUNS C) LOTS THE HUMAN SIDE OF THE GAME AND THEN JUST BECAME MONEY GRUBBING WHORES

This season has left me VERY disillusioned I feel it more and more as I play less and less , I dont play because the newer players will rate skill by the gun you use and how much paint you shoot... I went to a local big game and now that I work for Cousins compeditors all my field buddies treat me like the biggest moron that walks the earth. And you know what unless Tom Ghee comes through for me and lets me play with TE next season.. As soon as I open up the field Im at... Im done... 2k4 is the last hurrah for me...

Yes yes its sad.. quote MacArthur " Old heros dont die.... we just fade away "

[Vanced]

Well again this is just a matter of opinion ... Over all playing the same game of paintball you played 5 years ago is A LOT cheeper now than it was then... It is today's High speed or nothing that racks up dollars faster than eliminations...

My average day of Air Ball costs me about $60 .. .$40/case, $10 Field Fee, $10 All Day Air... But my average day of rec ball only costs half of that ?

But hey you and me don't have to pay that... Any of us can go to Walmart get enough gear to play all day in the woods like we use too for what I use to pay for a case... and then play for next to nothing with our friends many times after that in what ever patch of field you can find.... Bigger problem is the average guy buys a gun for under $200 that shoots much faster than he can afford to play with ... and the speed ball style of play contiunes to rack up that much more ... verse the often less than hopper used in an average woods game...

It is all about expectations and what you feel you need to play and win... and much worse what you feel you need to play and have fun...

None of us need $$$$ worth of gear to play paintball ... But a lot of us do choose to play $$$$ to play paintball ... I spent last spring and fall laid off from work and money was tight... but even I managed to get out and play paintball now and then... but it was putting my higher end guns away... grabing the SL-68 and hitting a local rec field and playing all day for $10-20 and less than that at some of the renagade fields around that are play for fun, $3 field fee... 25 cents an once C02... BYOP... And it is funny how many waved field fees, and free air you can get offering to ref a few games ? That is how I use to be able to play when I was young, not working, and in school...

If you love the sport and want to play paintball you can afford it even on a meagar income... but if you want to pretend you're a team member of Dynasty... then that might be a different story... Check your priorties...

Just another worthless 2 cents worth of rant...

[Lord Headley]

Yea, I agree. Although I love all the new "toys" out, they still kill my wallet. I used to play every other weekend until that finally burned me out. Now I get maybe once a month in, or every couple months Skirmish holds a scenario game and I go up there.

It sucks, but there isn't much one can do really. Just learn to be a little more conservative and keep the kiddies in line. ;)

- Brian

[WARPED1]

I liked it better when there were two tournament grade guns. The mag and the cocker. We need to go back to that. No modes, no debounce(debounce never should've been made user adjustable), no electros.
Back to basics. And play in the woods. Not with blow up doll bunkers! Theres pretty much no skill left in paintball. Thats why after 8 years in NPPL, I've quit to play scenario ball.

[ilikePB]

I liked it better when there were two tournament grade guns. The mag and the cocker. We need to go back to that. No modes, no debounce(debounce never should've been made user adjustable), no electros.
Back to basics. And play in the woods. Not with blow up doll bunkers! Theres pretty much no skill left in paintball. Thats why after 8 years in NPPL, I've quit to play scenario ball.

I don't agree, I think it takes more skill. Airball and Xball take a lot of skill or everyone would be a pro. You have to be fast, a very good snap shooter, be able to tuck in tight, read the field, etc. etc. For me paintball is more fun than it has ever been. It is a lot easier for me to rack up the eliminations in woods over airball(that could be just because more noobs play woods around here).

EDIT: This is biased because I like airball and xball better than woods. :)

[WARPED1]

There is some skill involved, but 90% of it is how fast you can pull the trigger. I've been playing this game 14 years. 11 of those in tourneys, 8 of those in NPPL. I an sad the direction tourney ball has gone.:'(

[OhMyAMoose]

I don't think paintball is going anywhere but up. All these million dollar companies are not pumping thousands and thousands of dollars into a sport that wont make them money. Yes, it is true that more and more people are going electro because it is so easy/cheap to do. And lets face it, they are fun to shoot. People always want better guns. It has always been that way. Back in the day when I had my spyder I wanted to buy all the newest barrels, bolts, trigger frames and whatnot. Everyone wanted to upgrade and they still do.
And for the people who say paintball is dirt cheap.... come one guys. That isn't true. Yes, it may cost less than it did 15 years ago but you can't compare the two.
The guns are going to continue to get better but I really dont see how much better they can get. Guns can only shoot so much paint before people cant afford to use them. I believe once the price of paint goes down there will be a huge surge in electro markers that shoot crazy fast. I believe that in about ehh 7-10 years paint prices will be down to about $25-$30 per case and there will only be electros on the field. And if everone has one then the playing field will be level again.
I just dont know.... I live in the midwest so it takes a little longer for the new toys to get out here.
Also, one reason why people stop playing is because lack of time/money. When I was younger and I didnt have a job or anything I played a lot. Once I got a job and started working I had money but no time. And now that I am in college I have no time or money. This is why there are so many younger kids who play. They the time and money from the parents. And it isnt a bad thing that the parents pay for their paintball. It is a hobby/sport just like anything else. I know my parents payed for all my hockey gear and I dont hear people say "His parents buy all his gear. It isnt fair, blah blah blah."
I believe that once people hit college age their paintball fun seems to stop/slow down.

[ilikePB]

I think it's mostly opinion either way. Some people thinks it's getting better and some think it's getting worse. All I know is I think it's a blast and I'll be playing for a long time.

[desslock]

If you can, try to work something out with your local field owner. At my local field I ref and help out with field clean up 2 sundays a month and get free paint&air the other 2 sundays. I realize some field owners may not be as flexiable as my local field but the worst they can say is no. Im amazed at some of the prices quoted on forums, $20-$30 field fees, $25-$35 for air and even some folks claim to pay $100 or more for a 2000rd case of paint?? WTF!!!! If you are paying these types of fees and not getting to play 12 plus fields with shuttle service that takes you from field to field you are getting ripped. I think the problem is greedy field owners that have realized that paintball is growing very rapidly and they are trying to milk as much money from this cash cow before old bessie runs dry. I went to national paintball supply one monday w/Larry(local field/store owner) he was buying cases of Draxxus white box at around $35 a case he charges $45 at the store/field. So the next time a field owner tells you he has to charge $100 a case he is full of s**t.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

People are always dropping in and out of paintball, but it has kept growing overall. Ten years ago I read a survey that reported the average playing-life of a paintballer was 18 months. That's probably still true.

None of the people I started with 13 years ago still play. Most of the people I was playing with in 1995 no longer play. My own Club is smaller than it was five years ago, but the field we play at is doing more business.

Entry-level markers cost about the same, and paint is cheaper. The add-ons, and the high-end are growing in price, but I find a day of paintball still costs about the same as it did a few years ago.


natural selection.

only the dedicated, strong, and rich survive in this sport.

I disagree. The coolest thing about paintball is that you can play it almost any way you want. Any tech level, any team size, any field size, any intensity. You just have to find people who want to play the same way you do.

I have a friend around here who lost his job, but wanted to keep playing paintball. He still does. But he had to put away his Emag, forego the tournies and dust off his PGP.


Hey, uhm, I totally agree. Local prices:

20 - Entry Fee
10 - All Day Air
140 - Case
10 - 100 Balls

This is not cheap, which is why I very rarely play.
...

Wow! We pay $10 field fee, including all-day air! I rarely buy a full case, but I think paint is $120.


Wow.. complaining about cheap paint prices hehe...

Lucky you guys dont live out on LOng Island..
...


Umm... isn't everything expensive on Long Island? Especially big chunks of real estate? I'm just asking, 'cause that's the impression I always had.



And dont get me wrong Im not whining about fire power... I have my own view on the sport.. I young 21. Ive been playing for 11 years.. ( second generation my father played from 85 and still does! ) Time for boldness! THE SPORT WAS RUINED WHEN WE AS AN INDUSTRY A) LET KIDS UNDER 16 PLAY B) MADE EL CHEAPO HIGH ROF PAINT GUNS C) LOTS THE HUMAN SIDE OF THE GAME AND THEN JUST BECAME MONEY GRUBBING WHORES

...

Just so we all understand...
You 've been playing since you were 10, but you think the sport was ruined when we let "kids under 16" play?
;)

I'm inclined to agree with you, though. I think the minimum age for paintball should have stayed higher. And I don't think the high ROF really helps the game, or even the industry.

[Lee]

i don't care for playing tourneys myself. i've done a few, but the attitudes, cheating, and spastic players frankly suck. now i ref them :D

i play airball or what have you with a vert sniper i home built and every once in awhile break out the mag or bushy.
i actually enjoy all aspects of play. scenario, rec, travelling to fields and meeting new people. that all increases my personal skill level.

i don't think the game itself has gone down hill, i thikn the caliber of play has changed as well as players attitudes, though not everyones. jerks will be jerks no matter what thier hobby or past time is.

money and hype have definately changed things as well. thats what brings out the attude type players, most of which rarely get anywhere in the game other than local tourneys and the like.

i ignore the jerks or show them that i am fully capable off redefining the term "*******" when they cop attitudes.

anything is what you make of it imho. i just want to play and have a good time regardless of what comes my way.

[OysterBoy]

I know it's canadian $, but if you're paying $140 for paint, you're getting ripped off.

Dont I know it, but Im not gonna drive an extra two hours just to go to a decent field with decent prices.. once a year I'll hang out with creative mayhem (my new resolution, lol) but thats it.

[Thermus]

My feild:

9 bucks/ 100 balls
30 bucks/ 500 balls
55 bucks/ 1000balls
98 bucks/ 2000 balls
15 dollar entry fee, 3 hours of play and free air


Thats why I dont play anymore. And yes, that is my only option without driving upwards of an hour away.

[sbpyro]

I've been playing for a while (since 89)
And I've noticed that the paint prices have dropped
Field paint use to be well over $100 for a case.
Field fee about the same
But it isn't the same.
IMHOthere is more cheating (and in rec play for goodness sake), whining and less sportsmanship.
But I still find that it is a fun sport and enjoy a good tape run and flank.
I have only used more than a case a day on two occassions.
I think that ppl need to play with more self control

[eg0_Slayer]

it seems like, everysport iv been into has been expensive....i started riding BMX when i was a little tot....did that for a while...got pretty good, had sponsorships from spy, haro, and lots of little places where i lived...then i shattered my kneecap, fractured my femur(which im told is very hard to do), broke my arm in 2 places, dislocated my shoulder, and got a concussion(my 5th) which put me in a coma for 3 days....so my riding days were gone....and after i recovered i moved from the mecca of extreme, california, to granbury, texas, wow....I wasnt supposed to be doing anything physical, but that would be like telling a junkie that he cant have anymore crack, so after a while, i found the wonders of wakeboarding....racked up my 6th, 7th, and 8th concussions....lol...and then started playing paintball...now paintball, wow...iv been playing for a little over a year and a half...and it's a totally different experience....when i rode, it took me years to fully get into the racing scene...but with paintball...i played around for maybe 2 months...and started getting serious, and id have to say, iv spent more money in my year and a half of paintball than my 7 years of bmx and 2 years of boarding, combined....lol, but its a totally different feeling...when i go onto the field its like, i dunno...its amazing, plus i havent been injured yet, (except for the time i ran head first into a tree playing woods ball :D ) I noticed that i have been slowing down, like alot of you have,and i have mixed feelings about it. but im leaving for california soon, to play at the famous SC village, and HSP...and i hope this will revamp my interest in the sport...

[slade]

lest we for get you cant even try and compete against a 3.5 foot tall 13 year old kid that packs more fire power and more paint cause mommy drives a Mercedes.
lol, i really had to laugh when i saw that... one time at my field i saw a kid that WAS actually 3.5 feet tall... he must have been around 8 years old... and he had a dm4. he was playing with his older brother (id guess about 13) who had a timmy... the older kid actually wasnt too bad.


And dont get me wrong Im not whining about fire power... I have my own view on the sport.. I young 21. Ive been playing for 11 years.. ( second generation my father played from 85 and still does! ) Time for boldness! THE SPORT WAS RUINED WHEN WE AS AN INDUSTRY A) LET KIDS UNDER 16 PLAY B) MADE EL CHEAPO HIGH ROF PAINT GUNS C) LOTS THE HUMAN SIDE OF THE GAME AND THEN JUST BECAME MONEY GRUBBING WHORES
for you, and anyone who agrees with you... im 15 years old. most of my friends are 14. can you give me any reason why we shouldnt be allowed to play?


oh yeah, and at my fields (all over an hour away):
field fee=$25
case of paint=$80 (or at some fields byop)
all day air=$10

and my outlaw ball field was shut down by the town... my friends and I are currently trying to create a town-owned field (yeah, i know, doubtful)

[Destructo6]

Paying close to $100 for 2k paintballs is nuts. I buy Allstar for $45 and Severe white box for $35. I consider that fairly reasonable, but if I was paying double or triple, I probably wouldn't play more than once a year.

There's nothing wrong with under 16 year old players. That is, unless they are sent out without adult supervision and begin to run wild. Most of the kids that are playing with a father, uncle, etc are very well behaved. That's not really an industry problem, it's an individual problem. You know, I don't think I would have played at all this year, and bought 5 paintguns, if I wasn't going with my 8 and 13 year old nefews.

[luka3589]

Hey I totaly understand what you are saying. I use to go broke every few times I played and couldnt play for weeks. fortunately I started reffing at Ithaca Paintball and now I am one of the head reffs and dont pay for anything but gear and tourneys. I guess Im just lucky.

[spasticsquirrel]

My feild:

9 bucks/ 100 balls
30 bucks/ 500 balls
55 bucks/ 1000balls
98 bucks/ 2000 balls
15 dollar entry fee, 3 hours of play and free air


Thats why I dont play anymore. And yes, that is my only option without driving upwards of an hour away.
ecactly the same where i go. I wish i was older so i can have a job and can afford it all, but i can really only go maybe once a mounth. I want to try rec ball, but i dont know any fields that do rec ball. I usauly just buy some paint from my friend if he has any to sell to me, and play my neighbors, but that like target practice, its easy. One is overly aggresing, and stands up in the open, and the other one just sits there... and sits... and sits... and does nothing. i did actually made him move up, but after when i said my friend was laying down on me, and shoot at him, he just sat there, and i got out trying to shoot him because i didn't want him to move up more. I think that like there should be a cap on stuff, you dont ever need to shoot more that 18 bps, and that is still crazy.

[GT]

my take:

Paintball will have a huge vacum of techonology here in the next five years, simliar to what happened to the cycling industry durring the early to mid 90's.

It still amazes me that tournes charge SO much to play and offer prizes as well. please go to cheaper prizes, trophies, and BROADEN the fan base.

[barrel break]

damn, I dont play nearly as much as i want to, because if i want to play airball (portland-70 miles away) i have to pay $10 entry fees and $80 a case for blaze. but if i want to play here (outlaw in the woods) it is like $20, but most people my age around here have ceased to play except for one loyal friend, so if i want to play i have to wait for some 7-8th grader to organize at their orchard/woods, and sometimes no one will for one or two months, and yet i am more obsessed with paintball now than ever....

damn, now im all depressed :(

[rabidchihauhau]

Paintball suffers from many ills, but one of the leading causes of its issues is the 'Marching Morons' problem.

(The Marching Morons is a great short story by CM Kornbluth and I've stolen its title for this theory)

Its also called the 'least common denominator' theory and it essentially boils down to this:

For ANY special interest to become economically successful, it MUST dumb itself down in order to appeal to a wider market. In paintball, this has taken the form of emphasizing technology over skill, or providing technological crutches for those who have little skill, and in making the requirements for 'entry' easier and easier.

Back when tournaments consisted of 15 player teams, getting a team together was a major hurdle. The skill set required at tournaments was high and less-able team organizers were naturally selected out of the mix. This selection process resulted in limiting the number of real teams at any one time to between 20 and 30.

What did the 'industry' do? It cut team size; those teams that could never find a 13th, 14th, 15th player now didn't have to worry about it, cause all they needed was 10. That wasn't enough, so they went to 7, then to 5 and finally to 3 (grandma and the grandkids can now enter a team into national tournaments...)

This dumbing down of team size (many more less-able teams can enter events, reducing overall competition levels and allowing less-able teams to win or place well) is compounded by statistical issues: a single elimination of a player on a 15 player team represents only 6.6% of that team's strength; 10% of a ten man team's, 14% of a 7 player's, 20% of a five players and 33% of a three player team's.

Now let's consider 'luck'. We all know that 'the breaks' contribute to the outcome of every single game; misfires, broken balls, bounces, ref calls, etc. If based only on the pecentage of a team's strength represented by a single player, we can see that ANY eliminations from 'luck' have a much greater impact on a team the smaller the team size is.

While that's a pretty obvious fact, what isn't so obvious is what it really means: luck - not skill - plays a far larger role (more than two times as much) in today's tournaments than it used to...

So yes, things did use to be much better when it comes to skill. No surprise - even the illiterate can get patents these days.....

[Jeffy-CanCon]

...for you, and anyone who agrees with you... im 15 years old. most of my friends are 14. can you give me any reason why we shouldnt be allowed to play?


There are a lot of well-behaved, mature and skilled young players. But there seem to be at least as many who are none of those things.

Like Destructo6 said, there is a tendency of parents to drop their youngsters off with a credit card, using the paintball field as a babysitting service. It is often bothersome to the field staff, and the adult patrons as well. A misbehaving 14 year old can't be treated the same as a misbehaving adult. You can't kick someone off the property who has no way home, and for whom you are responsible "in loco parentis".

[SlartyBartFast]

You can't kick someone off the property who has no way home, and for whom you are responsible "in loco parentis".

Horse feathers.

Kick the kid out. Unless the parent had you sign some sort of agreement saying you were looking after the kid. The resposibility of the field is only that the field and play are safe and the patrons follow the rules.

[Dante's Inferno]

Been playing speedball for 5 years now. Still play every weekend at the very least. Always buy a case of Midnights for Sat. Open Play ($45). I'm doing fine, and so are my friends. I see no reason why this cannot continue. I work, I put money away, I play paintball, and it's working very nicely for me.

[Archie]

I drop a bill every time my son and I play, easy. Just be thankful you only have to pay for one persons paint, not two!

[vonort]

Ok enough about Paint being so expensive. Paint is CHEAP now. Learn how to shoot and hit your target. You won't have to use a full case to play a days worth. When I started in the game it cost .25 PER BALL!!! What is it now.. .04 If they are price gougers.. My local shop sells Worr paint and Marbalizers for $45 and $55 a case. So that is between 2 1/2 cents to and 3 cents a ball. For decent quality, fresh paint. I usally buy a case that will last me at least 3 outings if not 4. Depends on how much target shooting I do in the back yard. This game has never been LESS Expensive to play. You whiners need to get a grip.. Learn some shooting skills or quit.. Not that hard of a choice.

[SlartyBartFast]

Ok enough about Paint being so expensive.

Too true. It's not paintball that's too expensive, it's particular playing styles that are too expensive.

[punkncat]

I can get a great day of play at my local field for 75$. That includes field fee, all day HPA , and one case of the premium paint (usually Anarchy).
Thats pretty darn cheap for as much paintball as you can stand in one afternoon. Its EASY to spend that much going to the movie theater with the kids. Go out to dinner at a nice restaraunt. There are worse ways to easily spend that kinda money....

Most of the people I played with when I started no longer play. But I think it had more to do with finding time to play , rather than the expense of playing. We had a renegade field in one of our buddies back yards. He lived within 5 miles of a bunch of us so it was really easy to get together any time. After that got closed down a few of the guys just weren't willing to find the time to drive to a field to play often and fell out of the habit , so to speak.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

I'm going back to stock class...something I rushed through 10 years ago to get to playing semi auto...and now i want to just have fun..no stress...

[slade]

I can get a great day of play at my local field for 75$. That includes field fee, all day HPA , and one case of the premium paint (usually Anarchy).
how did everyone get so lucky? for me that would be... $105. and thats for a case of big ball instead of premium (my field doesnt give you a choice... except on wednesday nights).

[ilikePB]

Back when tournaments consisted of 15 player teams, getting a team together was a major hurdle. The skill set required at tournaments was high and less-able team organizers were naturally selected out of the mix. This selection process resulted in limiting the number of real teams at any one time to between 20 and 30.

What did the 'industry' do? It cut team size; those teams that could never find a 13th, 14th, 15th player now didn't have to worry about it, cause all they needed was 10. That wasn't enough, so they went to 7, then to 5 and finally to 3 (grandma and the grandkids can now enter a team into national tournaments...)

This dumbing down of team size (many more less-able teams can enter events, reducing overall competition levels and allowing less-able teams to win or place well) is compounded by statistical issues: a single elimination of a player on a 15 player team represents only 6.6% of that team's strength; 10% of a ten man team's, 14% of a 7 player's, 20% of a five players and 33% of a three player team's.

Now let's consider 'luck'. We all know that 'the breaks' contribute to the outcome of every single game; misfires, broken balls, bounces, ref calls, etc. If based only on the pecentage of a team's strength represented by a single player, we can see that ANY eliminations from 'luck' have a much greater impact on a team the smaller the team size is.

While that's a pretty obvious fact, what isn't so obvious is what it really means: luck - not skill - plays a far larger role (more than two times as much) in today's tournaments than it used to...

So yes, things did use to be much better when it comes to skill. No surprise - even the illiterate can get patents these days.....

I disagree with the more luck less skill because with more people you have more chances of getting hit with random paintballs because there are 15 instead of 5 players shooting your direction. That increases luck for big teams against big teams of an individual player getting hit, rather than in a 5 vs 5 game. It's all equal to me because of this. Imo it's actually harder to play 3 vs 3 than 7 vs 7(or 5 vs 5 etc.). To me 3 vs 3 is a lot more focused on individual performance rather than team so that makes it a little different too. I hope that made sense.

[vonort]

Quick question for you, have you ever played a 15 man tourny? Most 15 man tournies did not have 15 guys shooting at 1 person. Most of the time you broke up into 3 - 5 man teams. so it really came down too 5 on 5 on your tape side or 5 on 5 in the middle. It was your squad vs. their squad. not your 15 vs their 15. So yes Luck does play a bigger part in todays game than it did in tournies of old. I've been in both.

[ilikePB]

Well, then it was like three 5 vs 5 games at the same time, and I didn't mean that all 15 were shooting at one person I was just saying that on the break there would be more paint in the air with 15 people hence a higher chance of being hit. I've never been in, nor seen a 15 man tournament, they must be very old school. Don't get so damn defensive, I was just stating my opinion, that's why I said that I disagreed, not that you were wrong.

[Barjack420]

field fees here in KY are $15 bux at best. plus Ive got to drive at least an hour and change to play at a decent field. Most of which barely get enough regular play to cover their costs. So they have to drive their prices up to make up for it. Can you say $550 for a stock impulse? yeah that sucks.

the only way to drive your costs down is to get onto a sponsored or semi sponsored team. Then some paint and equipment costs are covered. but to get to that point youve got to spend $100 bux a day just to compete, otherwise you might not be considered cool enough to play with the real ballers.

no matter what its an expensive sport, akin to snowboarding, golf or.....skydiving. If you want the rush, you gotta pay

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Well, then it was like three 5 vs 5 games at the same time, and I didn't mean that all 15 were shooting at one person I was just saying that on the break there would be more paint in the air with 15 people hence a higher chance of being hit. I've never been in, nor seen a 15 man tournament, they must be very old school. Don't get so damn defensive, I was just stating my opinion, that's why I said that I disagreed, not that you were wrong.

I didn't play tourneys in the 15-on-15 days, but from what I recall from the magazine articles, you often couldn't see the other team off the break. The fields were quite large. Plus, the players were using pump-guns, or very early model semi-autos. Not a very high ROF.

[Archie]

I didn't play tourneys in the 15-on-15 days, but from what I recall from the magazine articles, you often couldn't see the other team off the break. The fields were quite large. Plus, the players were using pump-guns, or very early model semi-autos. Not a very high ROF.


OH, Those were the days. When you either had a 6 bps Mag or cocker, or went slow off the break with your pump. Man I miss that. My local field has a few rounds a day of what they call hopper ball. Meaning you can only bring one hoppers worth of paint on the field, thats the way to play it.

[ilikePB]

I didn't play tourneys in the 15-on-15 days, but from what I recall from the magazine articles, you often couldn't see the other team off the break. The fields were quite large. Plus, the players were using pump-guns, or very early model semi-autos. Not a very high ROF.

Well in that case it sounds boring. It just sounds like playing woods. No matter how much skill it requires if it's slow paced and boring I wouldn't wanna play compared to airball and xball.

[vonort]

ilikepb sorry if I sounded abrubt. I'm too use to being on forums like Pbnation where the average 10 year old thinks they know everything about PB. The old tournys that were 15 man were usally played on large feilds. Usally about 20 - 30 acres. If you don't like woods then you wouldnt have liked 15 man toruneys. You did not see people on the break. The excitement in the 15 man tourney was the thinking part of the game. Once contact was made the fire fights were quite intense. But the strategy that was involved in out flanking and gaining the upper hand was the real fun. And once you had your side secured or eliminated making the decision on going for the flag.. or flanking the middle squad of the other team. Yeah the game was a bit slower. But IMHO A lot more fun. I prefer woods over any other PB. As you might have guessed by now. I play them all. Play in a local X-ball league as a sub about every other month. Very intense. Sorry about the abrubtivness of my first post. its' all good as long as its PB.

[ilikePB]

It's all good. If that's what you like it's cool. I prefer airball and xball so i'm enjoying paintball a lot because both are very popular. I'm not into woods except for the 24hr scenario games, they are fun. It's all preference I think.

[jetgirl]

I can agree with most of what everybody's trying to say. Think of what it cost us players in Hawaii to purchase paintball and equipment back in the early 90's. A good pump paintgun would easily cost $400. The fact was, and is, we players from Hawaii are grateful for being able to legally play it at all! For me, I go through about $50 for a day's play, which includes all day air and the walk-on fee. I can barely afford my monthly expenses, but I enjoy this sport, which I see as a hobby. To me, it's worth the cost, but I trim my habit down to once a month. I consider myself fortunate, because my Army Reserve command is willing to sponsor my idea of a paintball team. This means that my fellow soldier teammates will be able to play once a month virtually free!
The bottom line: nobody cares if you've got an Angel, Intimidator, or a cheap Brass Eagle Avenger. Nobody notices how old you are. Everybody notices a cheater, and everybody has fun.

[jetgirl]

my take:

Paintball will have a huge vacum of techonology here in the next five years, simliar to what happened to the cycling industry durring the early to mid 90's.

It still amazes me that tournes charge SO much to play and offer prizes as well. please go to cheaper prizes, trophies, and BROADEN the fan base.

Sometimes it goes to a worthy cause. We had a tourney where the entire proceeds went to the food bank, and the winners got bragging rights. I'm still pleasantly shocked and amazed at the leap in paintball technology....

[Stealthgerbil]

my field charges $10 entry, and $45 for a case of Menace. Its a pretty good price. Also, if its costing you so much to play, buy a pump, and buy that same type of paint your field uses from the internet. If you keep it in your car, your Fields owner probably wouldn't know.

[slade]

vonort - so a 15 man tourney was basically a woodsball game with experienced players only? hmmm... sounds good... i still like the idea of speedball better though.


Also, if its costing you so much to play, buy a pump, and buy that same type of paint your field uses from the internet. If you keep it in your car, your Fields owner probably wouldn't know.
second option wont work very well at my speedball field... i thought of that, but its almost impossible to find my field paint online. and dont you think that it would be sort of suspicious if you always show up at the field with a case of field paint, but never buy any paint from them? so im basically stuck with paying $80 a case or playing woodsball...

[Carnage]

Oysterboy

My field charges
CAD$
No field fee.
5$ For all day air
15$ rental
Balls:
17$ menace 500
22$ RPS 500
25$ MidEvil 500 98$ for a case I think

I think your field is really jipping you guys.

[p8ntballin007]

Majority of the people positng in this thread have very nice paint prices, you have no idea what it is like to live in a bigger city, where there is no room for a feild and everything is expensive. The closest feild to me is about 45 minutes away, entry fee is 25, paint is 50 for a half case, air is $3 per 1000 psi, And the staff at the feild is less than satisfactory.

A lot of people would say that i should take up stock class play, however there is noone around here that plays, and there is also nowhere to play at that you won't get leveled by timmies, matrixes, and the like. So stock class is pretty much not an option.

This has caused me to leave the sport I love after playing for around 6 years.

[hotrod]

Seems like vonort pointed out a little nugget of truth. Woodsball and 15 man tourneys (which were essentially woodsball) are thinking games. I remember watching a paintball tourney on ESPN back around 1993 and it was in a wooded field. In the old days of woodsball only, you actually spent the first 5 or 10 minutes of a game finding a hidden route or a hiding spot. You didn't need 20 BPS because you waited for somebody to get close enough to take them out with 1 or 2 shots. As stated numerous times before, the game is now all about shooting (not so much thinking). The market is about enticing 12 year olds with cool blue annod 20BPS, eyes, electronic loaders, etc.

I love what the game used to be. Trying to outsmart the other team, not just outshoot them. Paintball was never my highest priority, but it was great fun. I could always find at least one friend to go play walk on. And, I knew that the other players were there to enjoy the same game. Now, walk on is at least 50% under the age of 14. I have no problem with kids, but most are unsupervisored and act like they're 7 off the field and on. They have no interest in woodsball. I played walk on last month and the refs only set up games of attack and defend. Again, this is not the woods thinking game it used to be. There's usually only one good ref out the bunch of them standing around.

To me, the thinking game is gone. And, I know if I play walk on, the caliber/priorities of players, refs and field owners is hit or miss. Also, finding friends that have time to play is near impossible (being 34, I don't have many friends without families, kids, lawns, etc.). I miss the days when paintball was just a hobby for a distinct group, not a mass marketed sport sold in Walmart.

[jetgirl]

Hotrod hit something on the nail. I agree, woods/rec ball isn't about slinging paint. Some would argue, though, that speedball simply takes out the hunting/stalking part and jumps directly to the confrontation portion, which is considered the fun part. The kids that play with us on a regular basis are really cool, and more mature than what I've seen on those pro tournaments. Regarding tech, well, I remember when people were concerned that constant air would ruin the game. Obviously, it didn't. So, do funky colors and insane bps hurt the quality of the game? I think rotten attitude players are what we should be concerned with.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Jetgirl...will you marry me?

[paintballfreak90]

I tottaly agree. I say they only sell tippmanns or pumps so we can see who really has skill and not just thier gun.

[ilikePB]

I tottaly agree. I say they only sell tippmanns or pumps so we can see who really has skill and not just thier gun.

That's stupid. I would quit and so would a ton of other people. Airball, to me, is way more fun. I don't enjoy dressing up in camo and walking around in the woods trying to find people to shoot. I grew out of the "Hide and Go Seek" thing when I was 10. Also, if you put 2 people together with DM4's whoever wins will most likely be the one with more skill, same with pumps or whatever. If you don't like airball don't play it, there are still plenty of places with wooded fields.

EDIT: Airball isn't going away, so get over it.

[Lee]

^ possible example of what jetgirl is saying? hhhmmmmm...... :rolleyes:

[slade]

I think rotten attitude players are what we should be concerned with.
i agree, but you cant really do too much about that.


Now, walk on is at least 50% under the age of 14. I have no problem with kids, but most are unsupervisored and act like they're 7 off the field and on. They have no interest in woodsball. I played walk on last month and the refs only set up games of attack and defend. Again, this is not the woods thinking game it used to be. There's usually only one good ref out the bunch of them standing around.
it depends completely what field you go to. at one of my fields, almost everyone acts mature and is interested in woodsball, and the refs have a different game each time you play. if you look you should be able to find a field that you like. (you may have to drive a bit...)

i agree with ilikePB. if you limit the equipment, it will only hurt the sport and make people quit (not to mention giving tippmann a monopoly). if you dont like high rof, then just join pump games. airball and high rof exist because people like them, and if you dont, then just play whatever style you like, dont try to force a change.

[mag-hatter]

i agree, but you cant really do too much about that.


it depends completely what field you go to. at one of my fields, almost everyone acts mature and is interested in woodsball, and the refs have a different game each time you play. if you look you should be able to find a field that you like. (you may have to drive a bit...)

i agree with ilikePB. if you limit the equipment, it will only hurt the sport and make people quit (not to mention giving tippmann a monopoly). if you dont like high rof, then just join pump games. airball and high rof exist because people like them, and if you dont, then just play whatever style you like, dont try to force a change.

yeah but if you DONT limit the equiptment, then the majority of the people that play rec ball will get fed up with getting shot 8 times per game and just quit. or....run out of money paying for the high end gun, the paint that it shoots, upgrades and so forth.

[ilikePB]

At the fields I play at they try to keep the high end guns seperated from the low end guns in play. That generally means that those with fast electros play on the airball fields and the others play in the woods. That is if there is enough people.

[mag-hatter]

thats too much of a hastle though what if someone with a crappy gun wants to play tourney and a guy with a good gun wants to play woods ball? i just say take away all electros :)

[vonort]

jetgirl.. I was around when CA first came into play. And at the time I was one of the young guns telling the old timers nah CA won't ruin the game. Guess what the Ole Timers were right. Think about it this way. With out constant air... There is no way the semi's would have taken off. Can you imagine trying to shoot a Timmy, Angel, Trix or other high end gun using 12 grams. That would be great.


And as far as ILikePB,, Why would you quit? You can play airball with a pump or a tippy. The gun doesn't determine the game that is being played. When speedball first started pumps were the only thing available.

[jetgirl]

vonort,
I haven't figured out how to stop the march of time and technology. I believe the evolution of paintball guns and the way it's played will continue. How and where we choose to play, though, is still relatively under our individual control. I made a conscious choice to fire less paint and improve my skills, but I like the HPA and semi-auto features too. If players have a choice of field owners, they can choose their favorite method/style. If not, they can set the example when they play. That's the beauty of paintball; guys and gals, moms and dads, kids and professors, just about anyone can have fun playing this game.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

... Regarding tech, well, I remember when people were concerned that constant air would ruin the game. Obviously, it didn't. ...

I know some people who STILL think c/a ruined the game. :rolleyes:

Stock play, or pump, or mech-only semi, are all still viable options.


I tottaly agree. I say they only sell tippmanns or pumps so we can see who really has skill and not just thier gun.

No. The cool thing about paintball is the flexibility - you can play however you want. You just need to find some other people who want the same thing as you. All styles of paintball takes skill, just different skills. The modern equipment allows for a much faster learning curve, but that's about it.

[rabidchihauhau]

so MUCH bs to respond to and so little time...

'hiding in the woods' - one of you folks disparaged 15 man woodsball with a comment like that.

It was anything but 'hiding' in the woods. There was running - lots of it - over broken terrain, into gullies, off cliffs, into swamps, across streams and creeks, down streams and creeks, into pine groves, through rhododendron and blackberry brambles.

Crawling? yes. How about over 100 yards of crawling, uphill, in the mud?

Can't do that on your primped and pampered grass covered wimpball fields, now can ya sonny?

Physical? Ok - serious play-related injuries personally suffered by myself: separated shoulder from leaping across a gap and landing on ROCK (thought it was dirt); fired the ONE shot needed to distract the center bunker, at which point the push went through (successfully). Split open scalp from rhododendron branch; destroyed right knee from overly fast impact with (another) rock (this happened before they invented knee pads). Not to mention becoming intimate with the look and smell of every variety of mammal crap native to the north american continent.

Running. Lots of running. Not 15 feet from one 'taco' to the next mexican cornmeal product, but 1500+ feet down an exposed riverbed, covered on one side by 40+ foot high cliffs and anchored at the end by bunkers, taking heat all the way, dodging all the paint and still taking out the players (plural) in the bunker.

Climbing. Climbing up said cliffs in order to back door the other team.

Jumping. Jumping down a 20-30 foot drop, and incidentally flying (well, for a couple of seconds anyways) over several players in a bunker.

Woodsball was the thinking man's game; deep mental analysis and psychological profiling of the other team at the same time: were they going to blitz or be defensive? Which side of the field would they choose to push hard on? Can we suck them down into the valley? Can one player on the left side of the field hold them off long enough? Would they forget their game if it looked like they were getting a lot of eliminations?

Speedball/airball is SO easy these days. Field - 150 to 200 feet long x 80 to 120 feet wide. 24 positions on the field (ONLY 24) - and half of those are yours at the start. Peek out and you can actually see the WHOLE field - not just some rhodos, a pine tree and the edge of the stream bank. Yell out and your whole team can hear you. Relay messages across the field? What the heck for, I can see the guy I need to talk to!

Geez. The ONLY way possible for someone to think that woodsball wasn't as fast, furious, challenging and demanding as air ball (appropriate name: wind bag, filled with hot air, etc - are all expressions denoting emptiness and nothingness) is that they never played it and are speaking from total ignorance.

Imagine playing airball when you can only see two teammates, the three of you can only see a tenth of the playing field, you can't see the field boundary, you can't talk to anyone else on your team (except by sending a runner to look for them), the other team is moving on you and you have to stop them from advancing down the field while still executing your job, you suspect that somewhere way over on the other side of the field the other team has gotten behind your team and might be backdooring your position at any moment...

Airball - bah! Its a game for people who want to be able to say they play paintball, but don't want to really be challenged.

[SlartyBartFast]

so MUCH bs to respond to and so little time...


Superbly written. :)

[rabidchihauhau]

I was one of the folks who successfully held the introduction of CA to tournament ball at bay for three or so years. Once Tom introduced the 6 pak that argument was over and done with (I and my guys played with 6paks - they were a LOT more versatile than CA).

The idea was to keep TOURNAMENT ball to some kind of logical, easily determined equipment standards; its much easier to tell if a 12 gram has been doctored than it is a tank.

Besides, hardly anything is as satisfying as telling the ref who's dogging your butt that he needs to move, the ref refusing to do so (cause he heard you cheated) and then clonking the next expended 12 gram off his forehead, accidentally, of course.

Same thing goes for stick feeds versus hoppers. Stick feeds could be any length you wanted (most guys kep them to 20 rounds), but hoppers could have forcefeed mechanisms in them....

Let's face it: the guys who want to make money rule the day now; sense and sensibility have been sacrificed to the dollar. Its no wonder that the real game of paintball has been perverted into a trigger pulling contest.

I shouldn't even bother going into a comparison of skills between todays game and yesterday's game, but I will.

Skills required today: trigger pulling, sprinting, cursing, cheating, clock-reading. gun throwing, showing off for the camera.

Skills required yesterday: terrain analysis, timing, distance estimating, motivational analysis, cogitation, communication, deception, running, sprinting, trotting, walking, duck walking, crawling, swimming, wading, basic math, climbing, rolling, cryptoanalysis, psychological profiling, mechanical engineering, statistical analysis, logistics, smelling the woods, listening to the woods, tracking, 'sense-of-direction'...

And one last thing I KEEP harping on but no one seems to take it into consideration: while the players may be youngsters with lots of hormones and speed these days, the people showing them HOW to play are all - every last one of them - woodsball refugees.

Equal skills - equal ages - woodsball team vs airball team on an air field, the woodsball guys win: in the woods, the woodsball guys win. Young puppy airball only players 'got no game'.

Its nothing to be ashamed of - its really not their fault. After all, they're playing what they THINK is paintball.

[jetgirl]

Whoa, I didn't realize there was such a huge chasm between woods and air players. Too bad, though. Both can learn from each other. It appears most of the "problems" are at the pro level. If that's true, then I have nothing to worry about, because it's economically impossible (or almost) for anybody in Hawaii to attain that goal. JT and Dye aren't gonna spend money on players that have to fly in order to participate in a major tournament. I've seen the "advanced" players in action, and it's scary how much paint flies, as well as the coordinated moves. Some fields will have their share of whining, cheating, and swearing, but at least it's minimal or nonexistent where I play.
As far as the "he who has money" concept goes:
I've seen beginning kids with Angel markers, but so what? The type of equipment owned doesn't determine the level of skill or ranking. Some are more fortunate than others, and some make a deliberate decision to use certain equipment. Paintball, statistically, has been a growing sport. The real threat to the sport is bad legislation and poor sportsmanship.

[EverlastPaintball]

the only reason I would quit is because they need to drop paint prices........it costs to damn much! :cuss:

[rabidchihauhau]

jetgirl,

I don't mean to be insulting but...

you can only be making the observations you make due to limited experience/exposure.

I've been at this 21 years come this October and my commentary wasn't just based on the past couple of seasons.

The 'money interests' have controlled this sport for at least the past decade. They are the reason why there are no real controls over electronic guns, they are the reason why limited paint events don't really exist, they are the reason why Chuck Hendsch had to 'steal' the NPPL away from its controllers, they are the reason why paintball has a bad name in the television industry (just ask Ron Simeo at ESPN)...

They are the reason why so many companies can market crap and get away with it - spend $ on advertising hype and not on production quality. They are the reason why the industry has so far failed to come up with an non-special interest based industry organization. They concentrate on profits now, let the future fend for itself, rather than identifying a goal and doing what's necessary to get there, even if it means giving up a few bucks along the way.

There is also a HUGE divide between players then and now; age is not the only issue. If this were based ONLY on the fact that players now come into an established industry where everything is laid out for them, that would be enough, but (sad to say) its generational as well. Those coming in now play a 'hobby' or a 'sport'. Those of us who started this thing years ago were 'inventing' paintball and we had to fight - hard - in order to do it. We did all the sacrificing, made most of the mistakes (think about it: imagine the first guy who had to say "fellas, shop goggles aren't cutting it...") and hand delivered an entire industry to those playing now. To see it turned into such a turd in order to have 'youth appeal' is sickening...

[Jeffy-CanCon]

rabidchihauhau, my experience doesn't go back as far as yours, but while I agree with much of what you say, I don't agree with all of it.

I too think that money-considerations and industry involvement in rule-making have been bad for paintball as a sport. I think there would be better competition and more credibility if all tournaments had limited-paint, and some technological controls on the markers. But I think that the bright-coloured jerseys, the standardised field layouts and the possibility of spectators are all positive developments. Those changes, as well as the improved technology (HPA, motorised hoppers) would not have happened without the industry's profit motivation, so I think we have to take the good with the bad.

I recognize that the learning curve for people starting today is an easier one than we faced. I also think you give air-ball players too little respect. It's not my style or yours, but their game does take a little more skill than you seem to think. The break is more important now, and the use of cover is different, just to name two things I have noticed. And not every old-school woodsballer posessed all the litany of skills you described, either.

[rabidchihauhau]

Hey Jeff,

Please take everything I say with a bag of salt; I'm being over the top these days in a deliberate attempt to stir things up vis-a-vis woodsball.

I will, however, argue a few points with you: technological advancement in the industry's beginnings was just as monumental, and none of it was done for profit motive: it was done so guys could say 'hey, look what I did to my gun': we went from hand cock to pump in two years, from tilt feed to gravity feed in two years and from 12-grams to CA in two or three years. Those advances are just as profound as adding HPA (kudos to Tom for identifying it as a cleaner power source, but its really just another gas...). Some of the advances were developed in an anti-profit motive manner, my own AmmoCans cardboard loaders being a good example: at the time, 70 round plastic, fliptop lid loaders were just becoming available at about $15.00 per loader. I created the 75 round cardboard loader (you could stand on mine, they were waterproofed and opened faster than anything else out there) and sold them for $2.00 apiece, down to 75 cents in quantities. Why? because I wanted such a thing and wasn't about to spend 200 bucks on plastic. So.

Spectators? Hey, you're talking to the guy who INVENTED spectators at paintball games. I told everyone that it would have as much influence over the game as it did in football - none. I got over 1000 folks to pay 5 bucks for the priviledge of watching paintball at PaintFest 2000 (I think that's still a record). That's not innovation. ANY sport needs spectators. My god, the only way a sport could be successful without spectators would be if everyone played it, and that doesn't happen. No, that's not innovation, that's just the numnutzes who run things finally getting it pounded through their thick heads that unless someone watches paintball, there is no television.

Jerseys? Hey, if players want to look like nascar drivers, fine. They make great things to wear around campus and yet another thing to use to show speedball players they can't cut it in the woods (I wore my yellow, red and orange Scott jersey to a major scenario game AND hid from people, color makes no nevermind, its the movement). Just because some rapper wants to show everyone his underwear doesn't make it a fashion statement. Oh, wait, yes it does. I think I just made my point...

Style? I was not aware that there was a 'style' to playing paintball. There are basic skills and there's judgement based on experience. Put the two together and you have a paintball player. I played woodsball when that's all there was. I played indoor at the first ever indoor field. I played speedball on one of the first courses built in this country. Up until two years ago, I played hyperball, airball, and supair, I played in hotels, around lakes and everything in between. I've yet to see an airball field that offered anything but 'shoot down this lane, move to that bunker, cross cover, shoot shoot shoot. At least in the woods I could find a crawling lane or a shadow to use as cover. I could take one location and convince my opponents that I was actually behind a different piece of cover. I could duel long distance over open areas and play gotchya in the thick stuff. I could win games by getting the other team to commit to the slow side of the field and then push, basing my plan on knowing they'd be physically slower to react. Sometimes you could even see and talk to opponents but not be able to shoot them. Airball is nothing but 3 minutes of yelling, ten cases of paint launched into space and incessant doink, doink, doink. Its idiotic. Everyone said, ooo, artificial fields, the spectators can see so much more, and then they go and erect a tower in the middle of the field. Idiocy. Sheer idiocy.

Standard field layouts? Yah, right. Not when one field is 180 feet long and its nextdoor neighbor is 175 feet cause the '*' trailer needs to be right there. Not when the people staking in the bunkers need a calculator to do 2+2=4. Not when the bunkers are all different shapes and sizes. Everytime I've sat in an audience with the uneducated, its the bunker layout that confuses them. Not the fact that there's a 'snake' on one side and a 'diamond' on the other, but 'why' one bunker is cylindrical and another is triangular. "Its not fair that one player has to hide behind that dinky thing and another gets that big pillar to stand behind" is a literal quote.

That's why all of the bunkers at PaintFest were 4' x 7' beercans lying on their sides; all the bunkers in one zone were the same color and every one of them was numbered. The audience could see 90%+ of the entire field, no matter where they sat (No big 'Q' in the middle of the field) and I didn't get any questions about the field. (Not to mention how easy it was to direct people to the action by saying 'check out white 7'. Oh, look. Big and white with a 7 printed on it, hmmm, that MUST be what he's taling about.)

As for players who didn't cut it in the woods: guess what? the game was so difficult to find and so relatively expensive to play that those people who couldn;'t cut it eliminated themselves by opting to design men's boxer shorts instead...

[Lee]

RabidC: what do you think about the new world paintball alliance or whatever the name is? i forget the actual name.

i think it's interesting that one of the intitial meetings was held at the same hotel in tampa that the nppl people were staying at on the wednesday night before the tampa super 7 was held.

as for your opinion on woodsball: i have been at it for 16 years. all i had in the beginning was woods as well. we went to speedball in about 91, but still played massive amounts of woods and forts.

i got out of it about 8 years ago. my hiatus was about 5 years. when i about 3 years ago i noticed a great difference in almost all aspects of the game (yes, to me it's still a game, we have not reached the legitamacy of a sport).
i now prefer airball, though i use a pump most of the time. i like my electro too, don't get me wrong, but, different tools for different jobs. i disagree with you about airball and the associated skills. i don't agree with the assertion of the average hype saturated player that a high rate of fire is good from a playing perspective. i've found that most don't expect one single ball to be coming at them. several in a row gives them a chance to see them and react. not one though.

as a ref at the super 7 in tampa, i saw things and attitudes that made me want to puke. i wanted to snap the neck of more than one "pro" player due to thier superior attitudes and thier ability to power whine as well as thier disrespect for event personell and rules. most players i had an issue with didn't even know that there was a rule against doing what i pulled them for doing. a simple thing like "out of bounds" was beyond a couple of them. so where things like playing on and wiping too. denied it to the bitter end since arguing, cheating and rule bending have become valuable skills. as a result of the experience, i'm not sure i would do it again. i've wanted to ref at that level most of my paintball life. be careful wha you widh for people, you just might get it.

i personally play my own game, because thats all i want to do....play.

[ilikePB]

Skills required yesterday: terrain analysis, timing, distance estimating, motivational analysis, cogitation, communication, deception, running, sprinting, trotting, walking, duck walking, crawling, swimming, wading, basic math, climbing, rolling, cryptoanalysis, psychological profiling, mechanical engineering, statistical analysis, logistics, smelling the woods, listening to the woods, tracking, 'sense-of-direction'...

Damn, if I wanted to do all this stuff I would join the Army.


Equal skills - equal ages - woodsball team vs airball team on an air field, the woodsball guys win: in the woods, the woodsball guys win. Young puppy airball only players 'got no game'.

Then why the hell don't all the scenario teams play a couple seasons in the NPPL to make some extra cash. The reality is that this statement is NOT true. I've been to a couple scenario games with some friends and owned the woods players. There tipmans and "covert" moves just don't cut it in tight, small spaces. To me airball is way more fun, it's more of an adrenaline rush. Like I said before, it's preference. You aren't gunna change the tournament scene and there's a reason for it. Once a person plays tourney style the majority ditch woods for airball.

Airball = :headbang:
CA = :headbang:
fast electros = :headbang:
force fed hoppers = :headbang:
technology = :headbang:
progression = :headbang:
change = :headbang:
my opinion = :headbang:

:headbang: = friggin awesome

:D

[rabidchihauhau]

IlikePB,

you think I'm talking about scenario games when I say 'woodsball'?

Sorry, no. I've been talking about tournament woodsball. Where do you think the Gardners played? Dave Youngblood? Renick Miller? Chuck Hendsch? Bob Long? some of those names must mean something to you.

They ALL started in the woods. Playing tournaments that had games the likes of which you couldn't even begin to imagine.

[vonort]

Really can't say much but AMEN RabidC. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


I've been in the game since 1986. Played at the Lively tourneys. And the first 2 years of the IAO. The Lively events were excellent. The IAO on the other hand, even though the first 2 years were woods, pretty much convinced me that I didn't want to play tourney any more. The rampid cheating was enough to make you puke. And arguing with refs. I seen more than one games outcome changed because team A whined better than team B. :cry: This attitude has become even more apparent in todays tourney players. I went to the World Cup '03. (family happened to be there for vacation so I took a couple days to check out the Cup). Not only the "Pros," but Am, and novice teams, did nothing but whine and complain and argue with refs. It was sickening.

I say take the "Pro", I have a problem with the status of "Pro" if you don't notice, In this sport and play that division whith pumps. Now maybe we will see if you really do have some skills. What makes a "pro" in this sport. From what I can tell if I have the money and want to put a team together and play "Pro" division there is nothing stopping it. Unlike the Lively
Grand Invitational, which was an invitation only event. Only the best of the best played. 15 man woods tourney. Now that was paintball.

Guess I had more to say than I thought. But RabidC. I would love to take you out and buy you a beer sometime. :cheers:

[ilikePB]

I'm stopping here. This is what I know: tournament paintball(as it is now) rocks. I like it. Many paintballers like it. It's still paintball(no matter what anyone says), it takes skill and it's fun. We are not going to regress back to pumps and 12 grams. Get over it. Step down from the soap box. Fast electros, CA, small speedball fields, force fed hoppers, jerseys, they are all here to stay(or get more extreme). The End.

[p8ntballin007]

......(or get more extreme).

I agree speed ball is fun and it is pretty fast paced, but I'm confused as to how paintball, which I've heard to be safer than golf or bowling, can be considered extreme.

I'm sorry but I need to agree with Rabid. I love speed ball, but I feel it is ruining our hobby. I say take one event be it PSP or NPPl doesn't matter, and have all the teams D1, D2, D3, and Pro all play with pumps. That is the only way to find out who has the skills and who just hides behind a wall of paint.

Just my one cent (to poor to have two cents, paintball prices made me tighten my budget)

Rob

[vonort]

well p8intballin007 if you can't afford paint now, the lowest it has ever been, then you might want to look at how you play. Don't say you can't afford paint. What you can't afford is your style of play. :)


And for the tourny thing. It will eventually collapse. Or be cleaned up. IF Pb makes it to TV and we see outside companies involved, ie Coke, pepsi whoever, These sponsors will not tolerate the game the way it is now. The Cheating, and disregard for officials will have to come to an end. Other wise you will never attain your precious dream of big mansions filled with hot babes. Once the cheating and the extent of it are exposed on TV cameras, then maybe we will see a change.. but I doubt it. Why because major TV won't touch the game until it cleans up. It;s a vicious circle.. and tourny players are just going to bite themseleves in the ***.. And me.. I'll still be out playing in the woods enjoying myself. :headbang:

[Destructo6]

There needs to be an organizing entity that has the power to and, maybe most importantly, the will to ban and/or fine players for cheating, poor sportsmanship, etc. Until that happens, tournaments aren't going to be much more legitimate than WWF.

If there were such an entity, there's no reason why a championship couldn't exist for all sorts of paintball classes, from pumps in the woods to unlimited speedball.

[127.0.0.1]

Get over it. Arguing one is better won't make a difference.
It's like that where I was coming from... the gaming world

In First Person Shooter world we have...
Some people that like fast paced FPS like Unreal Tournament and CS
Some people that like slow-paced realism like Ghost Recon or whatever

In the Real Time Strategy front we have
Some folks who like building 1 hours worth of huge empire and battle it out (Age of Empires II, Civilization, etc.)
However, some folks like "rushing" - that is, 2 minutes into the game already battling with the opponent (Warcraft III, Battle Realms comes to mind)

Heck, even in "General" terms we have one side that likes multiplayer so much yet there are people that likes singleplayer.

And you know what?

THEY NEVER AGREED ON SOMETHING. THEY CONSTANTLY BASH OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAS DIFFERENT OPINION.

Same thing with Paintball. Speedball/Airball is my choice. So what? I don't care about where Dave Youngblood or Bob Long came from, I do care what they play now. That's my opinion.

And yes my opinion will always be biased. Truth is, anyone's opinion is biased.

But you know what? Woodsball will never extinct, and so does speedball.

[jetgirl]

RabidC,
Hey, insult me, I can take it. I'm not saying that commercialism hasn't taken its toll on paintball. The only reason why I haven't been in the game as long as you have, and I envy you, is because Hawaii had an age minimum back then. Everything is delayed getting to Hawaii, so maybe the rest of the ugliness hasn't made its way here yet.
As far as the discussions about cheaters, well, we see it all the time on pro basketball and football, and it hasn't stopped yet. These discussions are interesting, but the changes have to start with us - the "average player". You are right, though. I have never played in the continental US, so I can only speak about what I see here at home. A lot of us here love our woods ball, and the field owners know that. All of them either have a woods field or are opening one shortly.
As far as kids, whiners, cheater, and pros are concerned, well, I've seen and been through enough that I don't get bent. I just try to have fun as much as I can. Guess that means I can't be a politician....

[vonort]

jetgirl:
As far as saying the cheating in PB is like the cheating in other sports. I don't buy it. The equivalent to wiping in PB in other sports would not be tolerated. To do a comparison.. It would be like blatantly late hitting the QB every time he throws the ball in Football. (guess what that player would be suspended and eventually kicked out of the sport). It would be like taking a swing at the Centers Head every time he touched the ball in Basketball (I think the NBA would frown upon this very heavily). It would be like checking the Goal Keeper in Hockey, or taking out the Keeper in Soccer every time you are on offense. You don't see this kind of thing in major sports. Yet in the great game of PB people are allowed, and even encouraged to do it. The quote I always hear. "wiping is just part of the game, get over it." Is BS!!! The biggest problem is the cheating is at every level. Rookie teams, local teams,, it is so widespread its ugly. Trying to get the average player to not cheat at tourney is near impossible. "well they are wiping why shouldn't we" is what I hear all the time.

Of course me personally, I would love to see the game go back to the late 1980's. When paint had just hit a major price break and was about $120 a case. I really don't care if other people can afford the game, and can buy stuff at Wal-mart. I never buy stuff from there anyways. I would still be playing and having fun. I really don't care if the sport grows.. I liked it the way it was.

[Stix]

It's not just the players mind you, it's also the people in authority that encourage cheating. I've only been playing a few months, but I've seen so much of it from players it makes me wanna puke. But if that wasn't enough it seems cheating is condoned by authorities at almost all the fields I've been to. Ref's are actually telling players to wipe, telling players that there isn't anyone at the flag, allowing people in the dead zone to call out positions, etc. They teach you how to slide to wipe off hits, and even tell people not to call themselves out unless they are pulled out. Players, even in rec ball lately slip ref's and owners a fiver or some other denomination and a lo and behold, there's that kid I shot out previously shooting at me again. And then the honest refs wonder why those stupid runts keep shooting at them when they are doing their job... Quite honestly this isn't what I signed up for, and I'm sure that's not what a lot of people who are thinking of starting paintball are expecting either. I thought that hell, this is probably just Long Island/New York thing, since all the kids here are spoiled brats, but it seems a lot more wide spread than that from what I gather...

[rabidchihauhau]

Jetgirl,

I was not insulting you - I was being hyperbolic and ridiculously over thetop in order to get some attention and give this subject some emotional content to spur future discussion.

I'm aware of how paintball developed in Hawaii (and, historical note, there was a team that some sponsors, JT among them, flew back and forth in the early nineties; there was even a 'national' series based in Hawaii those years...)

I am not attacking anyone and hope that you can see how exaggerated my posts and points have been. Glad you 'can take it' too :)

Ilikepb - you're welcome to bow out of the discussion; of course, that will only convince everyone else reading this that you have no more points to make, no more defenses to offer for your position and, since you have given up the field, your position must obviously be the incorrect one. Woodsball RULES! Yay, we win!

[p8ntballin007]

Vonort- You are correct that I need to adjust my style of play, which I have been thinking of doing. However, where I used to live I could go out buy 500 balls for $10 and that was at a field where there was no entrance fee and air was free with purchase of paint. That would keep me happy for a full day of play plus left overs to plink around with at home. Now if I wanna buy 500 balls I have to drive 45 minutes, pay the $25 field fee, be reffed by complete jerks, and also pay $25 for field paint, which will last all day but when I go home now I have no place to shoot around ( I moved to the city, which I don't blame on the pb comunity it is my fault). The only way that I can adjust my style of play is to go stock class. With the closest feild that can harbor stock class play being god knows where. So if I adjust my style of play I can't play anymore, and if I stick with my style of play I can't play anymore. Paintball is not fit for college students with no money. only the credit card kid will survive.

[jesseyo13]

The sport is getting somehwhat old to me. It just not fun anymore using my Ir3 against tippman pro carbines. If you really want a challenge, just use a maverick against the rentals and do like 5vs 10. I notice that when I go back to my electro I wait for a clean shot, instead of just ripping.

[vonort]

p8ntballin007:
Sorry didn't really mean to jump you there. (I re-read my post). Just it drives me nuts when people say paint is high priced. I have to take into consideration that a lot of feilds do gouge on paint prices. I play mostly bandit ball. Buy decent paint at a resonable price. (i'm one of the lucky ones i guess). But I do know of organized feilds that charge 2x if not more for the same paint. So its not the paint producers that are the problem. Its the feilds. Yes I know they have to make a profit.. but they can sell the paint cheaper than what they do and still make good money.

[rabidchihauhau]

Let's talk ridiculous for a second.

Its embarassing to be a member of a 23 year old industry that can't doesn't even have an independant industry organization.

Its embarassing that we can be this old and still have the internecine fighting going on for 'control' of an industry that can't be controlled.

Just plain stupid.

[SlartyBartFast]

p8ntballin007:
Just it drives me nuts when people say paint is high priced.

All right, I'll drive you nuts some more.

Paint IS overpriced. Even at a penny a ball it's expensive for the expected high volume fling fest that speedball has become.

Stupid thing is that back when I played woodsball and paint was 2.50 for a 10 round tube (and deposit on the tube) and CO2 was 0.50 per cartridge, a REALLY expensive day (and a full day 8am-4/5pm mind you) was 50.00. And that included lunch!

Now, 50.00 as a walk-on gets you the crappiest setup available and enough paint to last one game?

But all sports are expensive. Skiing was getting to be 50.00 just for the lift ticket. I gave up skiing.....

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Damn, if I wanted to do all this stuff I would join the Army.

...and most woodsball has evolved to simpler games, on smaller fields because of that. It's a rare treat for a veteran woodsball player to get to play on on old-school 10 acre field.



Then why the hell don't all the scenario teams play a couple seasons in the NPPL to make some extra cash. The reality is that this statement is NOT true. I've been to a couple scenario games with some friends and owned the woods players. There tipmans and "covert" moves just don't cut it in tight, small spaces. To me airball is way more fun, it's more of an adrenaline rush. Like I said before, it's preference. You aren't gunna change the tournament scene and there's a reason for it. Once a person plays tourney style the majority ditch woods for airball.

Check the economics on the NPPL - unless you win first place every time you play, you are losing money. Entry fees, paint, transportation, hotels are all pretty expensive.

But you are partly right, rabidchihauhau's statement wasn't true. He was yanking your chain. But you know what, I've been to a bunch of scenario games, and a few tournaments, and "owned" a lot of tourney guys. Their straight-ahead style doesn't cut it in the thick woods. ;)

We might not like the tourney scene, but most of us don't really expect to change it. It's popular with a small percentage of paintballers, most of whom are wannabes. But if they are having fun, good for them. :)


IMO, most of what you admire is good, though it's not all for me. I am opposed to fast electros, though. I think they do more harm than good. They might be good for tourneys, but they have become common in rec play, too, where they are not really appropriate.

[vonort]

Slarty:
Its not the paint price its your playing style. Most of the time I play on speedball or airfields I take the Illusion pump. Keeps my cost down. But it is rare that I go to an organized feild. Hate the pre-madonna attitudes at most of the local places. So I play bandit ball, and I usally have a pretty good day for around $25, the cost of 1/2 a case of paint.

[jetgirl]

Jetgirl,

I'm aware of how paintball developed in Hawaii (and, historical note, there was a team that some sponsors, JT among them, flew back and forth in the early nineties; there was even a 'national' series based in Hawaii those years...)

Really? I wonder if I played against them. The only "national" series that I can think of was the speedball tournament at Paradise Cove. Yes, there was a team that supposedly cheated and wiped paint, but they never made it to the finals. Young Guns, a team of kids under 18, were a blast to play against. The tournament was all 12g. quick change, 250fps pump paintguns. Totally cool. And yeah, I heard about some kind of turbulence with NPPL and ESPN, but I was never given the full info on that.
Vonort, are you sure about that? I've seen football players grab facemasks and then vehemently deny it. Divak, a pro basketball player, "creates" offensive fouls. Or, am I confusing this with really bad acting? Gotta admit though, cheaters and whiners irritate me. I decided a long time ago that if going pro meant high priced paintslingers, paintwiping, and screaming at refs, I'd never accept an offer. Yeah, right, like I'd ever get an offer.

[peewee]

Wow, reading thru this has been fun. Being an old woods ball tourny player back in the livley days & around the time Dan Bonebrake started his tourny series up here in the northwest. Its brough back many memories. I personally have never stepped foot on a sup air field. There are several in my area but I just have been turned off by the attitude that I run into there. My old teams moto was honor & integrity , which is how we played the game ( call our selves out when others teams wouldnt). Sadly clear back in 95 you saw the shift in cheating etc really take off . Up to that point if a tourney player had a rep of wiping etc they we kind of black listed in our area. We kicked one of the best players I have ever seen off our team because he got caught playing thru a hit in a one game then a blatant wipe in another over the course of two tourneys. He has never played any type of tournement paintball in our area sence. The newer players for the most part sadly never got to see the old ironman, All Americans or phantom force 10 mans in action. They had all the skill that tourny players claim to have now but add in 200% more variables due to terrain etc. I personally feel that they were the better "PRO" players. The whole PRO thing is in a way misleading. Yea some teams make some money.... But at the end of the day part of that money goes back as compensation to your sponsors. Gear you get to keep but in many cases the cash belongs to someone else...Well to the other part of this thread. We are blessed in out area. Most field fees vary from $10 to$15 with your own gear or $20 without while prices on paint are generally about $45 a case. One field doesnt charge a field fee at all but no BYOP they charge $45 a case. :D

[Beemer]

Let's talk ridiculous for a second.

Its embarassing to be a member of a 23 year old industry that can't doesn't even have an independant industry organization.

Its embarassing that we can be this old and still have the internecine fighting going on for 'control' of an industry that can't be controlled.

Just plain stupid.



Over a decade on a left turn on this issue. Not just embarrassing but so sad to

What happened to the IPPA??????????? I still got the t shirt and membership card. Why did it really fail??

Doesnt a SPORT need a governing body?? Ha Ha thats so funny even the newfangled dodgeball craze has a governing body and its just starting to take off

[Cool fool!]

i get a case for $30 down here in texas! woo hoo!

[Destructo6]

I personally have never stepped foot on a sup air field.
I was the same way for a very long time, but one day I acquiesced to the pleas of my nefew. It was pretty fun, to my surprise. I won't give up the woods, but speedball isn't all bad. You should try it.

[kscullin]

Do what I do - skip playing once and drop the $80 into a radarchron. Then find a decent renegade field, take your friends, and play your butts off. I spend about $23 for a day of woodsball (1 bag of paint and a 9 oz fill), and about $35 for a day of speedball (2 bags of paint and 2 fills) - it'd be less if I had the guts to pump. As long as everyone plays safe, stand up honorball, it's all good.

[ronin]

well i love the game in all its forms .i am a turny player and have never owned an electro i find those who use a wall of paint to play well only have fast fingers one or two quick snaps and they are out. i am a firm beliver in accuracy over firepower.i i do shoot a lot when i play rec (more targets) but when im playing serious i play smart and cause diversion by peeking and just wait for my opponet to mess up .most speedballers want fast paced games and end up forcing a move then i got them. last weekend my friend said i shot too much because i played back and went through nearly 400 rounds in a 10 min game (we where out numbered 6-14 .. just for kicks) so the rest of the day i used one hopper for every set of 2 games. if you have real skill you dont need 3 cases of paint for a day of rec (granted it is fun to lay it down ......but very waistful) :dance: :dance: :dance: :shooting: