Mag Operating Pressure -- could it be lowered?

[Arkhangel]

Could anybody tell me what the standard operating pressures are for Mags? I'd imagine that it'd be dependant on the valve.

Does the pressure vary based on each valve (ie RT different from AIR, etc)? Also, is there a way to lower the operating pressure through swapping some parts or else modification of existing parts?

I'd think that with the ideal gas law being what it is (PV = nRT), the only real way would be to increase the volume. I'd also think that increasing the ID of the macroline wouldn't really solve the issue -- any changes would need to be made within the valve.

A possible solution: if an external regulator were used as a foregrip, would the larger volume there make it be possible for the valve to "see" the correct operating pressure if a lower pressure HPA tank were used?

Thanks for any help anybody can provide.

[Dayspring]

Valve needs a minimum of ~600-650psi.

Internal working pressure is ~450psi.

There aren't any parts to swap, as nobody makes internals but AGD.

And no, a reg outside the valve reg will introduce a flow restriction. Bad.

Lastly, LP is HYPE. It actually can make the gun less efficient. (Shocker & Matrix) The only good part about LP guns is that they can shoot deeper into a tank. That's it.

[jwalker87]

the actual pressure that's hitting the ball is about 450psi anyways; thats pretty low pressure. There's a regulator built into the valve; the high 650 psi needed is so that the chamber in the valve can fill more quickly. The mag, I think, has the best design of any p-ball gun out there.

[Dayspring]

Actually, the pressure hitting the ball is 65psi.


the actual pressure that's hitting the ball is about 450psi anyways; thats pretty low pressure. There's a regulator built into the valve; the high 650 psi needed is so that the chamber in the valve can fill more quickly. The mag, I think, has the best design of any p-ball gun out there.

[Arkhangel]

Valve needs a minimum of ~600-650psi.

Internal working pressure is ~450psi.

There aren't any parts to swap, as nobody makes internals but AGD.

And no, a reg outside the valve reg will introduce a flow restriction. Bad.

Lastly, LP is HYPE. It actually can make the gun less efficient. (Shocker & Matrix) The only good part about LP guns is that they can shoot deeper into a tank. That's it.
I've seen that ANS makes a Phase 2 Valve. Reviews at pbreview seem mixed.
http://pbreview.com/products/reviews/1500/

[Dayspring]

ANS = crap

Don't even bother.

[Arkhangel]

I'm surprised that there don't seem to be any aftermarket valve parts (other than a very few from ANS) that are out there. Most other guns have a ton of that kind of thing. Seems that for Mag, there's a ton of frames, a bunch of bodies, but that's it.

Considering how most people like to customize their guns the way they like, not having very many options kind of sucks. :(

I'm surprised there isn't more available on the market.

Are the operating pressures the same for the RT Valve, X-Valve, and the stock Automag/Minimag?

[ilikePB]

I'm surprised that there don't seem to be any aftermarket valve parts (other than a very few from ANS) that are out there. Most other guns have a ton of that kind of thing. Seems that for Mag, there's a ton of frames, a bunch of bodies, but that's it.

Considering how most people like to customize their guns the way they like, not having very many options kind of sucks. :(

No aftermarket company can improve on the design. To me it's a plus. It means you don't have to spend $200 more after you buy it to make it perform, it is awesome right out of the box.

[jwalker87]

yep. I agree. The x-valve is so awesome that aftermarket companies cannot find any way to improve it. ANS parts aren't very popular because they aren't better than the x-valve. It's one reason why I'm a mag owner. Also, if you're looking for customization, you can get the x-valves ordered in colors.

[Destructo6]

No aftermarket company can improve on the design.
If AGD can improve the design, then so can an aftermarket company. Simply because they have not, does not mean they can not. I'm quite confident that if Honda or NASA wanted to apply their formidable engineering talents toward improving the Automag, they could do so.

BTW, what would you be trying to accomplish by "lowering the pressure"? If you are going for low numbers for nothing more than bragging rights, have at it. If you are trying to increase the shootability, lower the trigger pull, etc, you need to go about it as they pertain to Automags, not Autockers, Intimidators, etc.

[Cool fool!]

wat iz the min input for the x-valve?

[Arkhangel]

The x-valve is so awesome that aftermarket companies cannot find any way to improve it. ANS parts aren't very popular because they aren't better than the x-valve. It's one reason why I'm a mag owner. Also, if you're looking for customization, you can get the x-valves ordered in colors.
What I have right now is a Minimag valve and a Mag Classic valve that's about 2.5 years old.

I'm not so much interested in better, I'm interested in lowering the necessary input pressure to something a good bit lower than 650psi. Hopefully to something in the 500psi neighborhood. :)

So the questions now are:
1. Would ANS aftermarket parts I already mentioned require a lower input pressure than what I currently have?
2. Does the RT valve require a lower input pressure than Minimag or Mag Classic valve?
3. Does the X-Valve require a lower input pressure than RT? than a Minimag or Mag Classic valve?
4. If these do have lower input pressures, how much lower are they than the 650 psi already mentioned?

Thanks again. :)

[<Echoes>]

The pressure I think you are trying to determine is not 650 psi. The valve regulates the pressure from the TANK (650 psi) down to 400 or so psi. As for the input pressure at 600-900 psi, that's just the way the valve works best? Why would you want to decrease flow to the valve by lowering the input pressure from the tank? All guns require a higher input pressure than operating pressure.

[Arkhangel]

The pressure I think you are trying to determine is not 650 psi. The valve regulates the pressure from the TANK (650 psi) down to 400 or so psi. As for the input pressure at 600-900 psi, that's just the way the valve works best? Why would you want to decrease flow to the valve by lowering the input pressure from the tank? All guns require a higher input pressure than operating pressure.
I'm not hoping to lower the pressure that's actually coming from the tank, I'm hoping to lower the pressure that the valve needs in order to work.

I'm attempting to run two mags off one HPA bottle. That's what this whole thing is about. The highest flow bottle I've been able to find is the AGD Flatline with 1200psi.

Thus, to run two guns (each wanting 650 min psi), I'd think I'd need 1300 psi coming in from the bottle. And that's why I'm trying to lower the min input pressure to something more in the 500-550 psi range.

[athomas]

If both guns require 650psi, then you need 650psi not 1300 psi. To supply 650psi to two guns, you do need volume capacity in order to maintain 650psi. If each valve can be fired at the rate of 15cps, then 2 valves require an equivalent air flow of 30cps. If the Flatline bottle can provide this flow, then you are good to go. If any bottle can do it this one probably can. By increasing the output of the bottle, you will increase the flow through the lines leading to the valves. This will help.

The front chamber of a retro valve (X valve) is the same size as the standard AIR valve. On a level 7 bolt design, it takes about 350 - 400 psi to fire a ball at 300fps. Therefore on both valves you need to feed them 550 to 600psi of air (200 psi differential) for good recharge rates. On a level 10 bolt design, the chamber pressure can be higher. Sometimes you need to supply at least 700 - 750psi input or more to the valves to have an adequate recharge rate.

[Arkhangel]

Bill Mills weighed in on my questions over at the warpig forums, as well. I thought you guys might be interested in his spin on this whole schmeer. Here's what he said.




Arkhangel wrote:

My train of thought has been that since I'm hearing (both here and at automags.org) that the min input pressure is ~650 psi, I wouldn't think that they'd work off my Pure Energy bottle.

Does Pure Energy have low output bottles? If not, it's going to be putting out around 800 psi which will do fine for you.




The questions I have right now are:

Would the aftermarket ANS reg give me a lower required min input pressure on my existing valves?


No, it won't make any difference at all. Level 7 and above it has no performance benefit.

The AIR valve in an Automag is a regulator that feeds through an on-off valve to an air chamber that holds air behind the bolt/piston assembly. The only thing that can be done to reduce the operating pressure is to increase the size of that air chamber.

The extra holes in the ANS body are in the regulator portion of the valve, not the air chamber portion.

The extra holes are based in concept on the 6 hole mod that was used to increase the flow rate of gas between the front and back half of the valve assembly to reduce the chance of shoot-down under rapid fire. Back in Level 6 and earlier model 'mags there was an issue with the pressure feedback holes in the two valve halves not lining up - drilling a bunch of holes in the back half made sure that at least one hole from the back was close to the hole in the front - for unrestricted airflow. With Level 7, the two holes line up perfectly, due to a changed manufacturing process. Since they line up perfectly, having extra holes doesn't change anything, flow wise.




Would an RT valve have a lower min input pressure?

Would an X-valve have a lower min input pressure?


Not significantly.



Yeah, I agree that it'd be possible to input more than 1200 psi by doing some creative work on the Flatline, but if I can avoid doing that, I'd like to.

Modifying the Flatline to output more than it is rated to output would be very dangerous. Regardless, you don't need it to output more than 1200 psi, the valves you are talking about will work fine in the 700 to 800 psi range.



I haven't been able to find a bottle with a higher flow than 1200. Do you know of any?

It sounds to me like you are confusing pressure with flow rate. Flow rate is not measured in psi - that's pressure. Flow rate is measured in cubic feet per minute. I don't know of any air systems for which the flow rate has been published, though many claim high flow rates.

I'd really suggest trying it with your existing air system - then investigating the use of regs with higher flow rates if you start having shoot-down problems.
_________________
Bill Mills - WARPIG Technical Editor


It was at that point that I admitted my obvious confusion about what was up. ;) And that more or less brings us to now.