Speaking of new gas sources.....

[tooslow]

The recent post about using helium as a gas source got me thinking about an idea/concept that I was fooling around with a few months ago. It is far from perfect or even being a workable idea yet. But I would like to hear what Tom and the rest of you think about the feasibility of this idea. So fasten your seat belts, you are about to board my train of thought:

OK. The concept of using compressed air to propel a projectile is not unique to paintball markers. In particular I am thinking of pneumatic tools. Now, unlike paintball markers, which use a relatively small, but very high pressure tank, pneumatic tools use a compressor to generate the compressed air they use. This gives them a source of compressed air that does not run out. But the 2 problems with this system are the hose and the compressor, both of which can be a real pain when trying to move around a jobsite.

What does this have to do with your paintball gun? Glad you asked. A couple of years ago, a company called Paslode (http://www.paslode.com/) invented something that they call the "Impulse Cordless Nailer". This system eliminates the need for compressors and hoses altogether.

In a nutshell, here is how the system works: Rather than compressed air the Impulse uses a fuel cell containing a butane mixture, that is contained in the tool itself. No hoses or cords at all. When the trigger is actuated, a spark is generated via a piezo-electric device. At the same time, a measured amount of the fuel mixture is released into the combustion chamber. Thus creating a very tiny controlled explosion, creating, guess what, a compressed gas, ready to be release into the valve assembly. The best part is that a single disposable fuel cell 1/2 the size of a 9 oz. CO2 tank will drive literally thousands of nails.

Now, I realize that this system would need some MAJOR tweaking and reworking to be anywhere near useful for a paintball marker. But think of the possibilities: You never have to stand in line waiting for a fill. Never running out of air in the middle of a game. Extra fuel cells could be carried in harnesses like guppies. Thousands of shots per cell. No heavy tanks or hoses. Markers could be self-contained. And the list goes on….

Well, what do you guys think? Don't worry, my feeling won't be hurt if you tear my idea to shreds. Critical analysis is what will make this idea better, or prove it unfeasible. Either way the result of this discussion will be positive.

[cphilip]

Most air tools work off of 90 psi (and those nailers as well). To try and create 425 psi plus, regularly and very very quickly, this way is next too impossible and do it afforadably.

[tooslow]

Good points, cphilip. But do you really need 400+ psi? The obstacle to high volume/low pressure has been the limited volume of conventional tanks. This system circumvents this issue altogether……. As for the speed issue, with a bit of research, this may change. That is if it is really an issue. I am no physicist, so I haven't got a clue.

I should also mention that a fuel cell that will drive around 1200 3 1/2" framing nails or 2400 2" finishing nails costs only about $3- $4.

Thanks for the input.

[Have Blue]

I think this is a very promising idea. However, I don't think that it will go anywhere. The minute that you start using combustion to propel a projectile, it becomes a firearm. And that's something that I just don't see the industry moving to, given the numerous anti-gun groups and the fact that our sport isn't seen as being politically correct in the first place. This is all quite unfortunate, as I think it would be a very nice propulsion method!

[cphilip]

Originally posted by tooslow
. But do you really need 400+ psi?

Well... you do for the Mag's chamber and I forget how many CC's of that 425 psi pressure you gotta obtain as well.

[tooslow]

Thanks, cphilip. I didn't know that. But, I cant help thinknig that with a bit of research, the controled explosion/combustion could meet this demand. But again, I'm no scientist.... Also, it's possible that this system is better suited to a marker like the eMatrix, which is designed to operate at much lower preasures.

Have Blue: I didn't think about the firearm angle. Another good point.

[Webmaster]

To work a mag you need 400psi - well 700 if you want to shoot 16bps with now shoot down...

on a cocker or something you can eek out 200 if set up right...

My idea is to make pnuematic wrenches like they use to change the tires in NASCAR - instead of using bulky lines, you have like a 45 cui tank on a "gun" and they could very quickly and and easily move around with it. Since it doesnt have a hose, thats just one more thing not to worry about. Its not a HUGE deal -but if it helps shave a second off the time of pitstops then teams will use it.

[tooslow]

Webmaster: Cool idea! it makes sense that you could regulate a 45/3000 or whatever down to the pressures needed for pnumatic tools. You should try rigging a tank w/reg up to a pneumatic wrench and try it out.

[Temo Vryce]

Ok what happens when you CO2 or HPA tank blows a rupture disk. A big bang a lot of vented air, nothing to really worry about right? Now what's going to happen if this fuel cell blows a safety valve? I honestly don't want to be the one finding out. It's a nice idea but I don't think the safety side of the marker is very good.

[tooslow]

Temo Vryce: This is a very valid concern. But, because you would only ever have a very small quantity of compressed gasses, the safety factor is high. The fuel is stored in its container until needed, just like a bic lighter, which has proven to be fairly safe over the years.

Remember, this system was invented to be used on construction jobsites. So the basic system itself is designed to take much more abuse than it would ever see in paintball.

Also, if there are any safety concerns, this is where a little research/engineering comes in. A few years ago people had the same concerns about a bunch of us "nuts" running around in the woods with high pressure air tanks...

[cphilip]

Originally posted by tooslow
Remember, this system was invented to be used on construction jobsites. So the basic system itself is designed to take much more abuse than it would ever see in paintball.

You obvously have never seen me take a fall with a Paintball Marker! Ask Miscue about that too.

[Vegeta]

My frined's father is a contractor.. I have seen crewmen drop nialers off 2 story buildings while laying shingles. Now im sure the makers of these butane powered nail guns took that into consideration. Im sure it could be made just as safe for paintball. And I dont know how big one of these contraptions would be.. but.. if you need more PSI.. just burn more of the fuel, store it in a tighter spot... and make the cell bigger. If it is as small or smaller than a 12gram.. i think we can afford to make it a bit bigger. I would like to see this system on a PT Enforce.. or whatever that new enforcer is called..

Now all we haev to do is downsize that huge hopper and somehow hold 200 balls in a small space.. u got real guns. almost. I know we dont want to connect ourselves with real arms more .. but I really hate hoppers.. bit.. they stick out... and make some guns top heavy...

[PigSweat]

I think Zvanaut is right about the smaller spot, more fuel. I think this idea has tremendous potential

Sorry, I ment Vegeta

[slayer]

I think the idea is superb. If you can drive a nail into wood then I would be willing to be you can drive a paintball at 250 fps or so. Just a guess, but probably a good one. Somone should do the force calculations. Yeah, some guns may have to be redesigned, and you may need more than one cartridge for rapid firing, but what an idea. Great thinking *thumbs up*

[Shark]

I worked on a race team, not dealing with nascar, and we looked into this a few years ago. The problem is that Impact wrenches are gas hogs. It would take a very large tank to take off and put on 6 lug nuts on each wheel. The hose may be awkward, but it is still easier to handle than a large/heavy air tank. There is also a rule in Nascar that keeps this from happening.

[tooslow]

PigSweat: Thanks for the support, Ryan. But your still not getting a raise.:D

Slayer: Great idea about dual cartridges and/or combustion chambers for rapid fire!

There is no doubt in my mind that this system could be made to work effectively and effeciently for paintball. The question is: Is anyone willing to spend the time and money to develop it?

[zads27]

Well, alternatively.. this may be more complicated but..
Assuming creating 700 psi just from the combustion is unsafe, or unwieldy (apparatus has to be reinforced too much to handle the extra pressure), perhaps something similar to a pressure booster system could be used?
*shrug* Don't think the idea is very practical, but hey it's brainstorming.. who knows, someone can probably make a pretty small and high flowing pressure booster.. what do you guys think?

[mac2k4]

if ya went w/ a completly new gun design, like an extra LP gun. about ~100 psi. and design a new stlye?
just base it on what people like.. milling, rof, and it comes stock w/ a freak kit!!

[tooslow]

mac2k4: Yeah! That's what I'm talkin' 'bout! This system wouldn't just be another new paintball marker; it would be a whole new way of thinking about what a paintball marker is, or can be. In my mind I am picturing an entirely self-contained unit: A well-balanced bullpup-ish design with a built in WarpFeed-type loader in the rear section of the gun. No hoses, tanks, hoppers or anything sticking out from its smooth black frame... It would bear almost no resemblance to anything on the market today.

[Flamebo]

That's pretty novel. If someone could make those cubes power 100-200 psi and use an LP marker, I'd be sold. I don't know much about angels, but I think they can be run at 140 psi, which sounds possible with this system. If I could run an Angel without an air tank, I'd DEFINITLEY be sold on that. It's worth checking into, I know mags are high volume but if this is doable then AGD will just have to design a new valve system.

[Vegeta]

Yes, for rapid fire... you would need 2 combustion chambers... actually you might need 3. If you wanna shoot 15 bps... thats 15 bursts this thing has to do per second. Now.. it has to have time to combust.. which isn't long, but it also has to have time to cool a bit, and the valve / injector has to open and close everytime. So 3 would be best for that high rate of fire.. thats only 5 reloads per socond. Another idea is...

(Have fun reading this.. its worth it I belive...)

Have 1 of these things with the fuel injector wide open for several seconds (...about 10) and a larger storage area for the gas to sit before being used. The combustions fill up this chamber for about 5 seconds.. and then you have enough gas for 30 or so shots... Now this thing will need some electronics to calculate when to start burning again so It has enough built up for when that 30 or so shots are gone. It could be set to start compressign again about 20 balls after the first is shot... that way the chamber gets a nice refil before it starts to slow your accuracy. Of course.. to get this thing constant at all... you would need a reg on it.. and a low pressure system along with it would be the best.. but thats alot to lug around.
Also when this compressing system the cartridges would go a bit faster than the before.. but you would be able to fire at higher rates of fire.. I realy dont belive that you could fire at up to 14-15 bps with 1 small cartridge burining every time you fire. And we know they will wanna shoot 14-15 bps cuase this system would be found on mainly high end large rof fire guns.
To make better fuel economy for this compression burning system I proposed above, what woule be good is the fuel be stored in tanks about hte size of a 4 gram.. small and compact. It could be hooked up to a ASA looking device under the grip like we see today... with a hose running to the combust

[tooslow]

Vegeta: I'm impressed! You've obviously been doing some real thinking about this. Somebody, somehwere must want to make this thing.....

[AGD]

Sorry guys, been there done that too (aren't you getting bored of me saying that?) The Passlode fuel cell technology was under development in the early 90s when my friend Dr. Bob Stepanovick, an inorganic chemist, was brought in to work on a residual chemical problem in the fuel air mix. At that time Paslode didn't even know what all was going on in the chemical reaction and couldn't get the piston to retract reliably among other things. Bob came to us and said "look at this canister, you could power a paintgun with it!". It was very cool and we started conceptualizing the product. The whole idea fell down when we realized flames coming out of the end of the barrel could start the field on fire.

On another note, Passlode figured that the cooling of the gasses after combustion was what caused the piston to retract (it didn't have a spring). We pointed out to Bob that air blasting out an exit port leaves behind a vacume in the chamber and that is what was retracting the piston. They worked on the exit ports and problem solved. That was our contribution to the Passlode Nail Gun.

In general a bunch of people have developed regulated portable air sources for nail guns none of which took off. It is kind of like the Z-Grip.

AGD

[Vegeta]

LOL.. yea and I don't even own an Automag.. Tippmann 98 for me.. I just like reading about the tech stuff.

Anyways.. I suppose you could stop the hot gas/flames problem by having yet another separate chamber for cooling, with a cooling fan and heatsink on the outside like a computer... but thats getting to technical.. and to big.

I am going to thing these things over.. and think about other possible air sorces.. hell wouldn't you love to be the guy who comes up with the next newest paintball breakthrough?

[tooslow]

Thanks for replying, Tom. Here I thought that I had some new idea here:D I am continually amazed by the things that you have already done and tried... It's no wonder that your products are of the caliber that they are. I want to be you when (or if) I finally grow up!:D

[Vegeta]

Well said tooslow.
It will take us a while to find something that AGD's R&D (or other companies at that) hasn't already tried.
The only thing I have thought up about alternative air is just more on this combustion stuff... that and some really, really cool ideas about how to get the paintball out of the barrel without air at all.. magnetic propulsion. Of course that would be dangerous.. having the paintball fly down a long tube almost liek a particle accelerator... then hitting someone.. well.. I scrapped that idea. I also thought abotu having some sort of turbocharge system. Just liek a car, only use the blowback gas, filtered through a turbine, to compress more gas.. Of course this would never work becuse to blowback gas is so weak it could never apply the amount of force and speed to the turbine to actualy compress any air... so scrap that idea too.

Im working.... one of these days I'll have something.
I also noticed on the way to this post that theres notehr topic about air sources I have yet to check out. Maybe something will arise out of that.

[AGD]

Now if you want to get really creative:

We even looked into the stuff that blows the air bags in your car up. It's a powder that is ignited by a hot wire and pressurises the bag instantly. We thought it would be great if you could just put a teaspoon in the tank, spark it and wala instant full tank. As it turns out the stuff is carcinogenic and has restrictions on handling etc.

Argon held some promise for a while as a compressed gas because it's molecule is large and heavy without the liquid problems of CO2. It was expensive but inert. Someone could do some serious research in this area today and maybe come up with some interesting stuff.

AGD

[Vegeta]

Argon makes up about 1% of hte atmosphere. Now im sure theres a way to refine this right? It would still eb expensive.. And nobody wants to pay $10 a fill.

Also thought about neon. Another inert gas, and, it you were to put a spark gap on the end of your barrel, tie it into your electorinic hopper or grip frame so that every tiem hte gun is fires theres a spark acrost the barrel, boom! you have a glowing trail of neon behind your paintballs! Not sure if that would really work though.

Right now, I m tryign to find a way that would eliminate filling al together.. a gun that takes ordinary air around it and compresses it into a chamber on the gun. What alos could be done is have a compressor come with the gun liek a charger would for an electronic gun. between every game you hook it up to your gun and recharge it. problem i ti would ned ot be a rather powerful compressor totake ordinary air form the atmosphere around it and pressurize it into a small tank, and yet still eb the size of a hopper or so.

[Vegeta]

oo! now AGD might have tried this already, but what if you haev 2 tanks, filled with two liquids. They go in to the gun in sparate lines, then when they reach the valve, a little bit of both are combined. Now when they are combined they instantly expand and form a gas thats under much more pressure than the liquid. If you have liquid CO2 in a 3cm cubed area, and gas CO2 in a 3cm cubed area, the gas CO2 will be under more pressure becuase the moulecules are traveling faster and colliding more often, obviously. SO when these 2 liquids combine in hte valve (or in a small starage unit before the valve) they could create a gas thats double in voulume, therefore double in pressure. This would save much space and call for less refills. The tanks would only have ot be maybe 4 gram sized, yet could produce (if the chemicals were very reactive to each other) up to 16 grams of air or more when all combined. Now im not sure which two chemicals could do this, and most likeley they wouldnt turn themselve all into a gas, there owuld be some liquid residu left that didnt chage, so this would have to be stored in a small voulume and disposed of afterwards.

Take it this way .. its liek vinegar and baking soda.. they let off a gas when combined... ut still leave behind a lot of liquid... hopefully you could find 2 chemicals that almost entirely change over to a gas, so you wouldnt have that much liquid to handle.




Now that I think about it, hats nto the best Idea nad is even to complicated for me. Oh well, it was worth a shot.