whitewolf airsmithing...

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

I used to be sure he was a good guy but as of late Im starting to change I need all of your opinions and help on what I need to do. here is the situation, I sent my e-mag out to him for ano almost 13 weeks ago and have tried sending him e-mails (4) about if its going to be done soon or not because im being forced to move out in a month or so and he doesnt reply. The e-mails were very polite asking that if he hasnt started yet to send it back and if he has to try to do it faster because I belive 13 weeks is more than enuogh time. But since he hasnt responded to any e-mails I decided to use a friends e-mail to get a "quote" on anoing another gun.. its all make belive and not real, guess what I send the e-mail in the morning and got a reply tonight... wow the quickest Ive ever heard from him. So I know he is refusing to even answer my e-mails about the current job yet he is taking orders for more!!. should I consider this theft? or give him even more time to "work" on my gun.

AO, HELP ME!!!!

[Blazestorm]

He took 4 weeks to tap some holes on my emag and polish the body, he's a busy man, but he won't rip you off.

Just grab a 50 dollar pump and go snipe some foo's :ninja: :argh:

[NoFearPaintballer]

talk to the BBB and ask for your mag back if you don tlike it.

[NJPaint]

White Wolf Airsmith does not work by any timetable except his own. His work is of the highest quality and is fairly priced. He has mentioned before and I will repeat. He does not make promises about timeframes, nor does he respond to messages asking about the status of projects or when something will be done. This is simply his style of business. I will not evaluate or present my opinion on it.

Given your circumstances, I would alert him of your circumstances. Tell him what is going on and give him a way to contact you now that you are being forced to move out. If you don:t have a place to go, give him the address of someone you trust and ask that it be sent to their place. At this point there is not much that you can do. I am sorry. I hope that I have been helpful at least a little.

[Rather]

Hes a good guy, i've talked to him a few times before in chatrooms years ago. He does good work. Just takes forever to get it done. :rolleyes:

[Flow_Tech]

no complaining..i waited 5 months,5!,for my mag to be done,and i have not a single complaint about it..he is a VERY busy man,and him alone runs all of WWA,so he has to worry about the parts he needs to take care of,on top of taking parts to the anodizer,i talk to him daily,and i will ask him whats going on for you and let you know

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

ty queen that would be wonderfull of you.

[ChucktheMAGician]

I just did a quick search to see if anyone else was/has had trouble w/ Whitewolf. Mine is really puzzling because I have ordered freak tips from him in the past and got them quickly and this last order is going on 6 weeks. He has replied to earlier emails and said that the items would be going out, that was the 2 weeks ago. The latest 2 emails I have sent he hasn't replied to but they have been read. Anyone insight would be greatly appreciated :(

[Blazestorm]

Just be patient, he gets annoyed with emails and having to reply to them. You'll get your stuff. :)

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

well isnt that kind of selfish, or, a bad buisness practice. If you own a buisness you should not treat customers like this and ex communicate them when you have there money or sometihng valuble and then say, "i get anoyed when you e-mail me"

[Flow_Tech]

i bet you he gets every bit of 200+ emails a day..it can get annoying..and with talking to him on a DAILY basis,i know what he goes through..he is VERY busy right now.

[firebanex]

IF you read what it says on the site it means it may not be fast and if you want fast to go some where else. I just ordered an acid wash vsc phantom from him and cause of the delays from cci it wont be here for a month and a half. i don't mind about waiting and getting a lower price, thats why i ordered from him.

jiberish is all i write some days...

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

Couponqueen89, you said you would talk to him for me, but you havent yet, are you going to? i guess you are the only one he like talking to or something. and I dont send him e-mails every day, I sent 1 a week 4 weeks back so ive sent a total of 4, and he hasnt responded to them. it makes a man worry when his $1000 dollar gun (not to mention sentimental value) is in another mans hands for almost 15 weeks now...

[coolcatpete]

Couponqueen89, you said you would talk to him for me, but you havent yet, are you going to? i guess you are the only one he like talking to or something. and I dont send him e-mails every day, I sent 1 a week 4 weeks back so ive sent a total of 4, and he hasnt responded to them. it makes a man worry when his $1000 dollar gun (not to mention sentimental value) is in another mans hands for almost 15 weeks now...
I know how you feel BradAGD had my e-mag for about 4-5 months, but when I got it back it, I found out that it was worth while. So just wait it out like I did.
Pete

[tyrion2323]

I tend to be wary of anyone who refuses to answer your emails because he "gets annoyed" by them. If a man is trying to run a business and won't respond to your emails when he has your marker and your money, something's fishy. I'd recommend requesting the marker and the money back and then sending it out somewhere else.

[splat15k]

I ordered an RT ULE Custom from whitewolf on April 7th and I still don't have it. I understand that there were backorder issues, but he never responded to any of my 8 emails. So I agree, something's not right here. Sure he's busy, but communication shouldn't have to disappear because of it.

[Flow_Tech]

Couponqueen89, you said you would talk to him for me, but you havent yet, are you going to? i guess you are the only one he like talking to or something. and I dont send him e-mails every day, I sent 1 a week 4 weeks back so ive sent a total of 4, and he hasnt responded to them. it makes a man worry when his $1000 dollar gun (not to mention sentimental value) is in another mans hands for almost 15 weeks now...

ive talked to him about it,he said that the anoziders have it,but are very back logged..it suck that you had to wait 15 weeks..but,thats not too much...i myself had to wait 5 months for my mag to get annoed,and i was super happy with the end result,and it was well worth the 5 months it was not in my hands.A friend of mine sent his Xmag to WWA for anno,in november for a purple/yellow acid fade..and he has no complaints at all..its all about waiting..like his site says,if you want fast,pay MAX,he has quick turnaround..

[JadedT]

Yea, I had issues with the guy too. When placing orders he'll answer FAST. Once I ordered more than $170 in barrel parts (in STOCK) he sent some off the stuff and told me the rest was with his annodizer. That was back on MARCH 12th. I emailed him several times in May. A few more times in June. Just got my two cocker backs and tip this week. 3 months later for what was considered stock, off-the-shelf items.

He follows through, but tends to neglect paid orderer's emails after a while. That being said, all my previous experiences went very smoothly. Just be a little patient. I reported him to Paypal after 2 months, but that was due to principle :ninja:

J.

[Eskimo Paint Slinger]

He has said in other threads that you can either pick two not three: cheap/fast/quality. He offers cheap and quality not fast. He does take forever but his work is very good and not way expensive.

He has also said he DOES NOT reply to people that send his e-mails about when there guns will be done.

[splat15k]

what about non-anno-related emails?!

[Eskimo Paint Slinger]

Yes he will reply to other e-mails, but the e-mails that ask him about when there guns will be ready or when does he think there guns will be done he just dosnt respond to.

[splat15k]

So, like previously stated, he only answers emails concerning new orders: admirable :rolleyes:

[Eskimo Paint Slinger]

Well I can see where he is comming from. He has stated that you will have to wait a long time for your products and I would think he is a busy guy and doesnt want to wase his time shifting through 100's of e-mails.

[splat15k]

I agree, but should it really take three months for him to send me an RT? Before I sent him the money he said everything was in stock...

[vonort]

Well lets see. If he is already busy and back logged. What do you people think he would be like if he took the time to answer every e-mail? There are only so many hours in the day. If he spends 8 hours sleeping (doubtful nobody gets that much sleep anymore) that leaves 16 hours. Take out time to eat at say 1/2 hour for lunch and breakfast and an hour for dinner. down to 14 hours. Answer emails from everyone and explain to them when their guns will be done.. approximatley 8 hours. So that leaves 6 hours to actually work on the guns. Talk about creating a back log.

[Eskimo Paint Slinger]

splat 15k, I believe he does his annos in batches. He waits till he gets a bunch of the same guns that want the exact same anno and does a large batch. If you have a rare anno it will take a while to get it finished. If you have a simple anno it should not be to long.

So as you can see his style of annoing guns would take some time.

[splat15k]

well since he's not wasting his time with emails, that would leave him plenty of time to at least complete easy(not time consuming)orders.

[splat15k]

splat 15k, I believe he does his annos in batches. He waits till he gets a bunch of the same guns that want the exact same anno and does a large batch. If you have a rare anno it will take a while to get it finished. If you have a simple anno it should not be to long.

So as you can see his style of annoing guns would take some time.


The thing is is that I didn't order an anno job...i just ordered an RT ULE.

[Eskimo Paint Slinger]

Oh sorry Splat, I got confused there. I thoguht you ordered the anno! Well then I can see no real reason that it would take months for him to ship a gun out.

[splat15k]

Wish I could have helped you out bud, I had these in stock. And I typically ship within 48-72 hours from receipt of payment.


yeah, I'm really kicking myself in the face now! :) Oh, and don't worry; I'll be doing business with you soon(vert frame and feedneck).

[ß.C.]

been waiting for 2 years for some work at punishers customs, he is being an A HOLE. Been waiting a year for work to be done with bradAGD. THESE GUYS TAKE FOREVER. I just wish they wouldn't lie so much about the status of the order.

[splat15k]

been waiting for 2 years for some work at punishers customs, he is being an A HOLE. Been waiting a year for work to be done with bradAGD. THESE GUYS TAKE FOREVER. I just wish they wouldn't lie so much about the status of the order.



Woah! I'm sorry you're dealing with that kind of BS. What's this world coming to!?

[Chronobreak]

been waiting for 2 years for some work at punishers customs, he is being an A HOLE. Been waiting a year for work to be done with bradAGD. THESE GUYS TAKE FOREVER. I just wish they wouldn't lie so much about the status of the order.

wow dude u need to chill out i mean i know u miss your marker or w/e but quality custom work takes a while with ANYONE...talk to doc and see how long he takes...thats the pric u pay for GOOD custom work. and most if not all dont lie i dont know any dealers that have made false claims about work being done that isnt

--edit bothering them about it can also prolong the process

[Blazestorm]

I can make anything for cheap and do it fast...

I use dremel and wood.













Now do you think that would be high quality? No? Ok! Then be patient and WAIT, *****ing is not going to make it go faster, if anything it'll make it go slower because they have to read your email and reply to it, instead of doing work.

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

so why does whitewolf contiue to take orders if he is so dang backlogged? wouldnt the smart thing to do be finish the crap you got and then take more orders? seems logical to me, instead of making people wait this long.

also, it doesnt take an hour to respond to an e-mail, you make it seems like it takes so long... I doubt he gets 100 emails from people who are getting work done with him, and if for some reason he does HE NEEDS TO FINSIH SOME FREAKING ORDERS, but I dont think he gets that many and you dont have to spend more than 3 minutes to tpye and send an e-mail and belive me it would make people feel so much better and mabey not feel like sending another e-mail for 1-2 months... oh well its not in my hands but if it were :rolleyes:

[Chronobreak]

so why does whitewolf contiue to take orders if he is so dang backlogged? wouldnt the smart thing to do be finish the crap you got and then take more orders? seems logical to me, instead of making people wait this long.

aliens he want even reffiring to wolf he said bradagd and punisher in his post, wolf has most if not all of the things he sells in stock and if he doesnt usualy its b/c agd doesnt have them

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

i know, but obviosly whitewolf is having the same problem...

[nicad]

As for WW, I too have not been able to get a reply from him in the lst month or so.. and we do business both ways-- hes a dealer for me and I purchase some of his services.

As for BradAGD- I know him personally. awesome guy, but usually overloaded with work... from custom one-of-a-kind jobs to typical maintaince to troubleshooting/repairs. Hes full-time at paintballmaxx, takes care of AGD work, and does custom work sent in from all over the place.

me- im sitting here waiting on a $1300 spindle to get back in from repairs... then its more bodies time!

out!

[coolcatpete]

As for BradAGD- I know him personally. awesome guy, but usually overloaded with work... from custom one-of-a-kind jobs to typical maintaince to troubleshooting/repairs. Hes full-time at paintballmaxx, takes care of AGD work, and does custom work sent in from all over the place.

out!
Yeah BradAGD was great sure it took a while but he threw in some cool things and did a great job at that.
Pete

[ChucktheMAGician]

wolf has most if not all of the things he sells in stock and if he doesnt usualy its b/c agd doesnt have them
If you're not sure of what you are saying maybe you shouldn't say it. "Most if not all of the things he sells in stock", like I mentioned earlier I still don't have my barrel parts and that's weeks after an email saying "ok there shipping out", which obviously doesn't say tomorrow or anything but still would leave you to believe that it would be within the next day or 2.
so why does whitewolf contiue to take orders if he is so dang backlogged? wouldnt the smart thing to do be finish the crap you got and then take more orders? seems logical to me, instead of making people wait this long.
Good answer. Scary is that parts on the site are not available either. :tard:

[Spartan X]

Just think this way...if you want him to do it, expect it to take a year. Just make sure you send all the right info the first time and wait it out :)

Maybe ghe sorts his emails out in a cirtin way.

Also you are inquiring about a gun you already sent in, maybe he does the other ones fist cause you guy have to wait. The new guys come on in but he doe snot need to say a word to you cause he knows your guns are fine and he has more important things to get to first. Besides he warned you you woulsd have to wait...so wait you shall. and he never said he would stay in contact.

[Magglerock]

A little simpathy is in order. These guys have had their markers held hostage from anywhere between three months and TWO YEARS! Telling them to "chill out dude" is not the appropriate response. The appropriate response is: "HOLY CRAP! Thanks for warning me about (insert airsmith's name here)". Well, White Wolf is another airsmith I won't be using. Nor Punisher. I don't get it. If these guys can't do the work, then why do they take it? Its stealing. I'm not in the business of making intrest-free loans, so what gives these people the right to hold things for months AFTER they have been paid for? In my search for custom work, I have had problems with no less than ALL THREE smiths that I have used. We need to stop patanizing these guys - how about a "Airsmith Feedback" thread? That might light a fire under their butts. :cuss:

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

A little simpathy is in order. These guys have had their markers held hostage from anywhere between three months and TWO YEARS! Telling them to "chill out dude" is not the appropriate response. The appropriate response is: "HOLY CRAP! Thanks for warning me about (insert airsmith's name here)". Well, White Wolf is another airsmith I won't be using. Nor Punisher. I don't get it. If these guys can't do the work, then why do they take it? Its stealing. I'm not in the business of making intrest-free loans, so what gives these people the right to hold things for months AFTER they have been paid for? In my search for custom work, I have had problems with no less than ALL THREE smiths that I have used. We need to stop patanizing these guys - how about a "Airsmith Feedback" thread? That might light a fire under their butts. :cuss:

Finally, somone understands, thankyour for this post magglerock.

[sneakyhacker420]

if you want the truth, *****ing and moaning in a two page thread is not going to get you any attention or true sympathy from anyone else, its not going to get WWA's attention or anything

he cant answer many emails, much less listen to 50 kids mouthing off to him on the forums

you read his site, hes does quality work for cheap, but not in a timely manner, if you read this, this is basically his disclaimer that you gave him your stuff, and you wait until its done, it will take a while, but it will be done well, and for cheap


realize this people, realize it

you never head people *****ing and moaning about the year or more wait for an x-mag, did you?

[PzYcO]

you never head people *****ing and moaning about the year or more wait for an x-mag, did you?

No, thats because people were told it would take that long

Maybe he should give customres a time frame, You pay little for quality, but it may take MONTHS! :cry:

They need to start taking in work they can handle, not making customers wait and be prissy. They can tell them, sorry, we have too many orders right now, get back to us. Not take their money and marker and then "Get around to it."

[RusskiX]

Maybe he should give customres a time frame,

While I understand Aliens frustration, it states right on WW main page, "I say NO TIMEFRAMES for a reason". The bottom line is he provides a disclaimer up front. If you don't like the terms, you shouldn't agree to the deal. Yeah, it may suck, but don't say you weren't warned. :nono:

I hope you get your stuff soon, but don't hold your breath.

[ChucktheMAGician]

2 Months after my order and several emails sent, all read but most not responded to, I received a refund thru Paypal. After Paypal deducted fees I ended up losing $1.82 and had 2 months of piss poor customer service and frustration. :nono:

[hAppy]

been waiting for 2 years for some work at punishers customs, he is being an A HOLE. Been waiting a year for work to be done with bradAGD. THESE GUYS TAKE FOREVER. I just wish they wouldn't lie so much about the status of the order.
That is harsh. You guys can't tell BC that he needs to chill. 2 years is a VERY long time, half a year is when you get bored of your gun. I bet you this guy doesn't even miss his gun anymore. I know waiting on your gun is a pain, my friend waited 6 months for his mag to be completed b/c he was waiting on Logic.

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

just an update on my condition... oh wait nothing has changed, except for the date.. still no response from WWA and still no e-mag.

115 days and couting...
(16.5 weeks)
4 months...

[frischtr]

Dude, I hear you... Almost 4 months for me... (sigh) Maybe someday...

[Muzikman]

Ok...I am going to say this really loud...

Unless you can not go without your marker for atleast a year, and some times as long as five years, DO NOT SEND IT TO A CUSTOM AIR SMITH.

This is the way they work...ALL OF THEM. I am really getting sick of all the people complaining that I send such and such out to so and so and I have not got it back yet. I mean if you look, EVERY custom shop gets the same complaint.

[FooTemps]

Ok...I am going to say this really loud...

Unless you can not go without your marker for atleast a year, and some times as long as five years, DO NOT SEND IT TO A CUSTOM AIR SMITH.

This is the way they work...ALL OF THEM. I am really getting sick of all the people complaining that I send such and such out to so and so and I have not got it back yet. I mean if you look, EVERY custom shop gets the same complaint.

quoted for truth

[adam_61550]

Just sent mine to White Wolf about a month ago. I'm already getting kinda jumpy. Oh well, I'll just be that much more atuned to my backup gun.

[Muzikman]

Also, this was about Doc Nickle, but it works for all custom shops.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1505829&postcount=42

[chairman_mao]

I think what needs to be said is WWA is a CUSTOM shop. When you order anything from a custom shop it takes time. They are all different so you can't compare one to another. If you want it fast don't get custom work done. I have never dealt with WWA but he is highly regarded for his finished product and you must be willing to wait if that's the product you want. I understand it's frustrating not having your marker but it was a choice YOU made. That's just my opinion

[PissedGodzilla]

If they want to run a good business, then they should be responsive to their customers... Their LACK OF COMMUNICATION is a reason I WOULD NEVER USE THEIR SERVICES
I don't care how busy they are, a good commecial property always answers their customers.

They only people B****ing are the ones that come in here and yell about how everyone should stop complaining.

Without their complaints, someone might not know how bad these people are with business.

booyah b****es

:headbang:

[FooTemps]

Okay, I quoted Muz for truth... now here's my explaination...

Customizers are few and far... Because of the lack of customizers and the high demand for custom parts/markers, customizers are often overloaded with work. You see, you ignorant pricks, rome wasn't built in a day... nor will a custom marker. You can complain and whine all you want, but the chance of getting your marker done with 5 days is near impossible... even with a decent staff. WW, Doc, Brad, and others all have this problem... They put up with your complaining and whining every day. It's not hard doing custom work, you've got to understand that there is no way to bang out this stuff so quickly.

Try making a DW style sluggo body... Just try it... you know, first countless hours designing concepts on the back of a napkin or on a piece of scratch paper, then more hours logged onto a 3d rendering program so you can translate it into cnc code... then more hours modifying the code for efficiency and speed. Then you wait for that part to finish and hopefully nothing breaks or there is a mistake. If there is, you go back to the code and start all over.

Customizers don't have it easy, give them a break. Look at people who make custom choppers, they make 2 to 30 choppers a year depending on the size of the shop. Paintball customizers don't have the benifit of a huge shop and large staff like West Coast Choppers... Oh well, you guys probably won't even read this since all you want to do is whine about how customizers are so slow. Try making it yourself next time if you want fast. Read some books on rendering and making code, learn some freakin engineering for your custom bolt, go build your god damn custom stuff yourself if you want it so damn fast.

[PissedGodzilla]

You see, you ignorant pricks, rome wasn't built in a day... nor will a custom marker.

don't be sittin there calling anyone an ignorant prick, it makes you look like the prick.

If you bothered to actually thinka bout what everyone is saying you would notice THAT THE REAL PROBLEM IS LACK OF RESPONSE!,

If WW or anyone else at least took the time to respond to the people how are giving them money, and let them know why things are taking so long, then I don't think there would be a problem at all!!! so you stop being ignorant and figure out the real problem before you come on here are say this kinda crap.. begone with you!

[FooTemps]

begone with you!
No. :p

Look, if you actually read their statements, they specifically say that they don't respond to the "are you done yet?" emails.

[PissedGodzilla]

The point is that, as a business, it is their primary responsibility to makes sure the customer is happy. you don't make your customer happy by not talking to them for months on end. it makes you lose business, and is not good business practice.

How long does it take to type "hey got you email your marker/part is halfway done, just lettin you know it's still here being worked on"

it took me five seconds, and it will bring them countless more cusomers with good reviews.

Simple as that.

[FooTemps]

Simple and tedious when people ask for updates every day. I'm sure people are waiting a while between emails to see if they get a response...

[Pain For Pleasure]

Huh. I was going to get a custom anno'd Phantom from him, but seeing how I want it for Christmas and he hasn't responded to my emails, I'll go to CCI instead. Thanks for this thread. When he meant no timeframe I figured it would only take 2-3 months, but with a custom anno, I guess Christmas is unreasonable. Oh well, not my money, but I did want that custom anno :( . I am still young and need everything FAST!!!! No patience for me :argh: . So now the question is acid wash blue, or acid wash green......

[tmnothing]

Ok it makes sense that it may be annoying when many people are e-mailing but who wouldnt when our stuff/money has been missing for months and months? I'm almost sure now that he has skipped out on us and we're not going to hear from him, has ANYONE heard a word from him at all recently? This guy is rediculous. Does anyone know his web site or maybe a contact number?

[Tunaman]

I cant speak for other customizers, but waiting a year...or even 1/2 a year is utterly rediculous. Granted I dont do some of the work that these guys do, but I use shops that do. I suggest getting your money back if you can, then email me and I will try to accomodate you all as best I can. Sometimes it takes me a few hours each night, but I DO try to answer all emails concerning your orders. After all...it's YOUR money! And you are MY customers! And YOU DO have the right to know the status or any other questions asked of me. You deserve to be answered. ;) :headbang:

[Macpaintballer]

I just posted this in the friendly section regarding Doc. I think it relates pretty well. This is not a flame or anything of that nature... Basically, sure, sometimes their service isn't what we'd all like, but you have to consider being in their shoes every once in a while.

find it very amusing how all so many people (no one in particular, just saying in general) get all weird when they suspect people. They get suspicious, and the word "fishy" pops up every other word. The problem is that 99% of the peope here have no idea what owning a business is like, and they just assume it's all of their ideals. Ideals are great, but when it comes down to it, some of those things must be sacrificed by the REAL businessmen to offer you something that isn't so common, QUALITY. This industry is choked with crappy manafacturers with terrible tolerance consistancy because they'd rather flood the market with their product. You're waiting and paying for a hand-made, often custom piece. As for answering e-mails, tell me how someone should schedule their work day? If they're answering e-mails, they're not working on your project, and if they're working on your project, then they're not replying you e-mails. I've witnessed one person posting on one particular machinist's forum every other day or so asking for his work... for 11 months. Obviously his order required a lot of work, and if I was the machinist, I'd be thinking to myself "Screw this guy... he's lucky I have to send him his parts back by laws."

Give them a break.

Bad business, maybe... but no one can say they aren't doing the best they can. It's a lot of stress and work. Plus how should they have social lives? Don't expect them to have the same kind of business you're used to dealing with, when there are multiple people with specific jobs. These folks are doing it all by themselves.

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

im not asking for something custom as in a new gun that has never been made before! anodozing has been done before and there is no excuse for it taking as long as it does, I really wish i woulda gone with another anodizer who doenst take this LONG! and guess what, i cant change that descion because HE WONT RESPOND TO MY E-MAIL'S! I asked for the gun back but NO REPLY... WOW this sucks.

[Muzikman]

Are you getting a special ano? Very well what he might be doing is waiting for more orders with the same ano that the it will be cheaper, for him and you.

[ShortStrokeTX]

WW does good work but the no response thing is what pisses people off. And he needs to tell people no, that he has too much work and they'll need to wait a while or go to somebody else.

And to all the people saying "Stop *****ing". Why should people stop *****ing when they haven't heard about their beloved gun for so long? Complaining might not help but it's better than being all bottled up inside, they might go and run WW over with their car... by "accident". :eek:

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

musikman I got a red base with platinum splashes. i doubt he is waiting for a group ano job. I dont get why he cant just do the prep work then send it to a company... this is taking too long.

edit

and foo, not sure if you were talking to me or not but you are kind of exagerating, no one wants there gun done in 5 days, and I dont think everyone was e-mailing every day. Also I was not talking about getting a custom gun built, or even an exsiting one milled, i wasnt talking about getting anything else done to my gun except anodizing. If he has to plan out a speacial and "efficiant" way to strip my ano and remove scratches or worry about breaking some machine tool I will be scared because it doesnt involve any of that. he doesnt even do ano him self, he just preps the parts... unless he is filling in gashes by brazing aluminum then grinding it down I dont get why it takes him SO LONG!

[MindJob]

I have been in jobs where I had to deal very closely with the Customer Service aspects of the business. There are a couple of things to keep in mind when you are dealing with the public. You are there to 'service' your customers. They choose YOU to give their business too. They CHOOSE you to send their money too, and TRUST you, mostly on blind faith in paintballs case, to do what they are paying you for correctly, and in a timely manner.

YES, I know how annoying it can get to deal with 300 e-mails a day from people asking when their gun will be finished. Unfortunatly, it is part of the deal when you open to the public.

It's a shame, because Paintball is such a niche business, especially the kind of work guys like WhiteWolf and Doc Nickel provide - they have you by the short hairs. But having dealt with both of them in the past, I can honestly say there is no malice involved.

Obviously, it would be great for someone like Whitewolf to expand to the point of being able to provide first-class customer service, but that just isnt likely. Even the bigger paintball companies have MAJOR customer service issues. Ever try to deal with Smart Parts on the retail level? How about trying to get an accurate timeframe when something will be back in stock at 888paintball? Sometimes, in some cases, if your not placing an order for 300 of something, you just cant get any respect.


If having to deal with long waits is unacceptable, then either find someone else, or figure how to do it yourself. I know there are places that can do a complete top-to-bottom anno job, including dissasembly and reassembly.

Bottome line is - Sometimes.. you just gotta have patience. (and maybe a little faith)

[tyrion2323]

I cant speak for other customizers, but waiting a year...or even 1/2 a year is utterly rediculous. Granted I dont do some of the work that these guys do, but I use shops that do. I suggest getting your money back if you can, then email me and I will try to accomodate you all as best I can. Sometimes it takes me a few hours each night, but I DO try to answer all emails concerning your orders. After all...it's YOUR money! And you are MY customers! And YOU DO have the right to know the status or any other questions asked of me. You deserve to be answered. ;) :headbang:

Thank Goodness that someone here thinks with their head. If you can't take the time to answer emails regarding your services, you shouldn't offer them. Period. I'm not saying that they should bang out custom markers like a machine, but staying in contact with the customer is vital. Email, forums, whatever...let 'em know at least once a week.

Jacob

[magmonkey]

just my input,

I see both sides to this. I feel sorry for you guys with crazy long waits. and I know that isn't right,

however I belive most of the customs shops in the country work a bit like ours.

Destructive Customs (Jared, Gecko (part time) and myself, do our best to keep up with things coming in to the shop.

heres the problem
we cannot make a living on custom guns alone so we all have "real" jobs

I am an anodizer, jared is a fireman and a machinist, and gecko.... well he is a student:)

but here is my average work week

4:45 get up get ready for work
check email for DC
go to work
go to lunch
check voicemail for dc
drive home
check email for DC
check for ups pacakges for DC
go to the shop
start miling
work at the shop untill ungodly hours
drive home
check emails for dc again
bed
get up and do it again

I will also add that somewhere up there I need to add room for planning a tournament
and teching for local shops

I have a wedding in one month and I have not had a decent conversation with my bride to be in three weeks, she is asleep when I leave the house and she is asleep when I get home



jared is in the same boat

if I am going to complain about it why do we do it? Becasue we enjoy it, and think we can do a good job so mabye somday it can be our "real job"

but it is so easy to get behind, we have been there and it is not a good feeling on the shop persons part to let the customer down. but there are only a set amount of hours in the day

[Empyreal Rogue]

For those of you complaining about a timeframe, check out www.maxanodizing.com . Most people get their ano job back within 2 weeks.

Now, grant it it's not as good as WW nor as cheap but it's fast.

I'm still deciding who I want to anodize my marker but I need to get the money for a Rogue Rail first so I have plenty of time to decide. I might have it done during the Fall/Winter/Spring months since I don't play then. Too darn cold. :\

[PissedGodzilla]

I cant speak for other customizers, but waiting a year...or even 1/2 a year is utterly rediculous. Granted I dont do some of the work that these guys do, but I use shops that do. I suggest getting your money back if you can, then email me and I will try to accomodate you all as best I can. Sometimes it takes me a few hours each night, but I DO try to answer all emails concerning your orders. After all...it's YOUR money! And you are MY customers! And YOU DO have the right to know the status or any other questions asked of me. You deserve to be answered. ;) :headbang:


And this is why Tuna is god!

:headbang: = Tunaman

[Macpaintballer]

No offense Tunaman and those who supported what he said, because he has a point... BUT.. Tuna isn't making the parts AND selling them. He's recieving the parts from someone else and then selling them. He's got an awful lot more time to respond to e-mails and such, so he can say "I will respond to e-mail, vote for me." :) They're working different kinds of jobs and schedules.

I wish idealistic people's ideas could become reality all the time, but it's not. Good luck to anyone trying to get their stuff back.. just note that when you get it back finished, you'll certainly stop complaining! :p

[silencer.1]

I had a problem with him responding to my emails also. I had attempted 4 different emails and 2 phone calls to try and contact him with no repsonse. The only way I got my money back was to give him an ultimatum of either refund the money in 3 business days or i'd be placing a call to the better business beruea. On day 3 he finally refunded the money. Up until that incedent I'd not had any problems with him before when I'd got phantom parts from him. While I can't say that I'd never try to order something from him again, I'm going to be looking other places first from now on.

[Athius]

Well why dont they do like Vaporworks whenever they have too much work they put on their site that for now they wont take any bushies to be vaporized. That would be the appropiate way to do buisness.

[Tunaman]

No offense Tunaman and those who supported what he said, because he has a point... BUT.. Tuna isn't making the parts AND selling them. He's recieving the parts from someone else and then selling them. He's got an awful lot more time to respond to e-mails and such, so he can say "I will respond to e-mail, vote for me." :) They're working different kinds of jobs and schedules.

I wish idealistic people's ideas could become reality all the time, but it's not. Good luck to anyone trying to get their stuff back.. just note that when you get it back finished, you'll certainly stop complaining! :p
Well not exactly...
I have a real job too...7:00 to 4:00 every day...and it has nothing to do with paintball(wish it did). I DO know how time consuming it can be when you dont have the time to answer EVERYONE. But I stay up late and MAKE TIME, FIND TIME, or pull Time out of my arse to get back to you guys. It is VERY important to me that you are all happy. My arse bleeds for these guys(basically most of the custom parts industry) that can accept payment for a product or service but dont have the time to answer the very person/s that gave you the business! My suggestion is that they try harder to FIND the time. Or HIRE someone to answer them. You cant have your cake and eat it too. This is EXTREMLEY tiring and hard work to satisfy everyone. Either shunt or get off the pot!

[ShortStrokeTX]

I always thought WW sounded lika grump old man. "Err, don't you youngsters send me emails asking if it's done" "It's done when it's done, don't rush quality" "You kids get off my lawn!"

[shartley]

I also answer EVERY e-mail I get. And yes, that includes those for slow project returns, and yes, I have them too.

While I admit it is far easier to assemble parts done at other shops and sell them than it is to do them yourself, all businesses should respond to all e-mails they receive (as long as they are not derogatory in nature). If a company has the time to see what the e-mail is about and choose not send a response, they had time to hit “reply”, type one sentence letting the customer know SOMETHING, and hitting “send”.

I too receive unholy amounts of e-mail, but I make sure I let people know I care enough to at least let them know I GOT their e-mail.

This is not an issue about product quality, service quality, work quality….. it is about customer service quality. And I don’t see how so many can dismiss genuine customer service issues simply because they “like” the shop or that it does good/great work. Those are two different issues entirely.

Yes, folks should be prepared to wait for any truly custom work they have done, by ANY custom shop. But NO customer should be prepared to be ignored if their e-mail does not fit in the “right category” (i.e. they are requesting a project status).

But that is just how I feel about it…..

(NOTE: Again, this is not saying anything about the quality of the work conducted by ANY custom shop, nor if they are good people or not.)

[Magglerock]

No offense Tunaman and those who supported what he said, because he has a point... BUT.. Tuna isn't making the parts AND selling them. He's recieving the parts from someone else and then selling them. He's got an awful lot more time to respond to e-mails and such, so he can say "I will respond to e-mail, vote for me." :) They're working different kinds of jobs and schedules.

I wish idealistic people's ideas could become reality all the time, but it's not. Good luck to anyone trying to get their stuff back.. just note that when you get it back finished, you'll certainly stop complaining! :p


This is a reply to EVERYONE who is taking any business's side in this type of situation. I don't want to hear about your other jobs. I don't want to hear about the volume of email you get. I don't want to hear excuses. Why? Because when this kid sent in his marker, WW didn't say "by the way, this is going to take an inordinate amount of time, and I won't be responding to your emails, so don't hold your breath. You'll get it when its done." No, he took the kid's money with a smile and hasn't said anything since. IF the wait were part of the deal and was made clear before the begining of the transaction, then yes, he has no reason to be upset. But this behavior was never discussed before the transaction. Service is service; its either good or bad. If you expect good service and are not told otherwise, then the merchant has a duty - perhaps even a legal responsability - to deliver it. If (and this would never happen), the merchant said up front, "I provide crappy service", then you have made a conscious choice to deal with them and must suffer the consequences. I'm sorry so many of you can't pay the bills on smithing alone. But you know what? You're cheating your customers. You know that you are taking to much business and have made yourself incapable of quality service, and yet you happily take the money. If your smithing volume is such that you can't anser an email with two sentences, then cut down on your volume. Some smiths do (Logic, Punnisher come to mind), but those of you who don't are being dishonest and may find yourself on the wrong end of a lawsuit one of these days. Think about it.

I am still marveled as to why there are no feedback threads for smiths. This must be made a prioirty, and AGD should be very concerned about this. Disreputable smiths are using AO to perpotrate thier shotty business practices. In turn, this reflects badly on AGD. As one of the few paintball forums that trys to keep it "clean" and "safe", you would think AGD would take what action it could to prevent sketchy smiths from using thier product (AO) to commit what can only be described as fraud. AGD, step up and sticky a smith thread in the dealer's forum. Furthermore, if enough negative feedback about any smith is made, ban them from your forum. This crap has got to stop.

[RusskiX]

Because when this kid sent in his marker, WW didn't say "by the way, this is going to take an inordinate amount of time, and I won't be responding to your emails, so don't hold your breath. You'll get it when its done." No, he took the kid's money with a smile and hasn't said anything since. IF the wait were part of the deal and was made clear before the begining of the transaction, then yes, he has no reason to be upset.

Maggle, have you even seen the home page for www.whitewolfairsmithing.com? One of the first thing it states under his Mission statement notes is:

"3. DO NOT EMAIL ME about when an ano job will be done, I say NO TIMEFRAMES for a reason. If you wanted fast you should have paid the 200$ for single color ano other companies charge."

So yes, WW DID make a disclaimer about timeframes and emails. I'll say it again, even though this service sucks for the customer, WW made clear his practice. In your own words, "IF the wait were part of the deal and was made clear before the begining of the transaction, then yes, he has no reason to be upset."

Caveat Emptor!

[cockermongol]

What absolutely dumbfounds me about this whole situation is WW seems to be REFUSING to send back people's markers when they request it. You guys obviously have much more patience for that crap than I do, because I guarantee if I were in that position he would have a lawsuit on his hands. Though I would not expect replies for when my gun was expected to be finished (because it says on his site not to), if I got sick of waiting then that means I want it back NOW and BY LAW he has MY PROPERTY and it is THEFT. AND I WOULD SUE AND I WOULD PRESS CHARGES.

BTW I think it's absoulte crap that he can't answer his e-mails. The only reason he has so many is because he never answers them. Even if he had 1000 e-mails, it would only take him 50 days to answer them all if he did 20 a day. And, considering it takes MAYBE 2 minutes to answer an e-mail, you're talking 40 minutes of customer service a day and that is NOTHING to insure that you will not be sued. Not to mention if it takes him that long to ano a gun I either attribute it to LAZINESS OR LACK OF FUNDS (explained below).

About the lack of funds (just throwing something out there):
I was thinking about a possible scenario and I found it quite humorous. I was thinking, maybe the reason he's taking NEW orders is because he already SPENT the money on the older orders on his problems.

Let me play this scenario out for you. WW says to himself one day "damn, how am I going to make this month's rent?" He comes up with a (seemingly) GREAT idea! "How about I start a business where I anodize peoples' markers for cheap, but give them no time frame when they'll get it back... Then I can pay my rent with the money and if I get enough orders I can use the money from the NEW orders to anodize the OLD orders, and when the "new" orders get "old" I take the money from the newest orders and anodize THEM with the money! BRILLIANT!" The problem with this is WW has now dug himself into a hole where he HAS to take new orders, because if he STOPS then his newest orders will never get the funds to be anodized, and when people start asking for their guns and money back he finds himself in a bind - all that money has already been spent on other peoples' guns! Now he's royally screwed and (most likely) sued, several times over.

Just one possible scenario for why WW could possibly suck so bad...

[desslock]

Having worked for a family business and helping out at my local field and shop, which is owned and operated by The old man his wife and oldest son, I can tell you that from my experiences if you own your own business you will work 2x harder than joe 9-5. Also there is no "quiting" time and sometimes you have to answer inane questions, and yes some people will expect a 3 month job to be done in 1 week, but that is the nature of the beast. As a business owner it is your duty to stay in touch w/your clients, communication is a VITAL part of doing business. When you call fedex to track a package you dont hear "we are too busy loading a truck stop calling us!" yes I understand Whitewolf doesnt have the resources avlble to him that fedex does but when Aliens sent an email telling this due that the adrss he has on record is no longer gonna be valid a simple email reply of "ok where should I ship ur gun when Im done" takes a min of his time. Now if Whitewolf ships to Aliens old adrss and didnt bother to check e-mails and get a valid adrss there is a chance the package could be lost or stolen, so Now Whitewolf has to take even more time to file a claim w/ups fedex etc to get the insurance money back on the package he sent to the wrong adrss, See where Im going, sometimes a few mins of hassle work can save you from a lot more work down the road. I have no idea how long an anno job takes but 13 months!!! sheesh only takes a human 9 months to go from single cell to baby and I know there is more work involved in that!! LOL

[Muzikman]

No, he explains WHY he does not give a time frame. I am guessing people just do not read.

---
I no longer bother with time estimates, if something needs to be done is a specific amount of time I suggest any of the other anodizers. Time frames have been too much of a hassle. I wanted to have the lowest prices and best quality, for me to offer that I have to some times hold items until I can get a batch going, or send multiple guns to get better pricing. If I don't have the flexibility with time frame I have to raise my prices to the very high levels other shops charge. I've chosen low prices, they chose quick turn around. You make the ultimate call.

Taken from http://www.whitewolfairsmithing.com/serv02.htm
---


This is common practice for most places that send out their jobs to be anodized. This is also why he takes more orders. If he took no more orders, he might not fill up the max numbers of pieces that annodizer requires for the price break.

[cockermongol]

HI have no idea how long an anno job takes but 13 months!!! sheesh only takes a human 9 months to go from single cell to baby and I know there is more work involved in that!! LOL
ROFL

[desslock]

He still should have responded to Aliens Adrss change issue, that has nothiing to do w/time frames, that is just common sense, Ohh you lived here now you dont, ok where are u living now so that when I send back ur gun it gets back to YOU. That is the type of communication that is important, now WW has every right to ignore lil johnny ADD sending an email every other day asking "is it done yet?" Ignore that crap but at least answer somebody when they give you a change of adrss

[White Wolf]

ok I'm getting tired of all the extra business I've been getting because this post won't die so here are some answers to alot of the misinformation and whining.

1. Customers DO NOT PAY upfront, I have no ones money, I am not sitting on money to collect interest or pay for vacations or buy crack. I do this for exactly the reason so people won't think I am doing any of those things. People that read the page would know this, people that like to assume...well we know what happens when that happens.

2. Things are explained pretty upfropnt on the web page, its not my fault if some one assumes that no time frame means "a month" 90% of the emails I get regarding ano I wind up recomending they use another anodizer because i won't be able to work in a time schedule they have.

3. Just because an email dosent get responded too does not mean its not read.

4. I get good ano pricing because i deal with alot of different anodizers (probly even some of the ones many people have recomended) and set up my contracts with them for the lowest price this often means my jobs get done "at will" when ever they have the time, or run a batch or any number of other variables. This is explained on the web page. I have had ano jobs complete in 3 days, and i have had ones that take 9 months. If i had a say in it I'd love for all the jobs to take 3 days.

5. Just as much as I dislike getting the " is it done yet" emails I WILL NOT bother the anodizers asking the same thing. Usually the first email I get form a person asking when the gun will be done is a standard "its in process" email then the subsequent emails are not responed to.

On monday I will be making a special trip, 4 hour drive out of my way to the anodizer that has the gun, I will pick it up as it is and send the gun back. I hope people will now be able to move on with there lives.

[Magglerock]

ok I'm getting tired of all the extra business I've been getting because this post won't die so here are some answers to alot of the misinformation and whining.

1. Customers DO NOT PAY upfront, I have no ones money, I am not sitting on money to collect interest or pay for vacations or buy crack. I do this for exactly the reason so people won't think I am doing any of those things. People that read the page would know this, people that like to assume...well we know what happens when that happens.

2. Things are explained pretty upfropnt on the web page, its not my fault if some one assumes that no time frame means "a month" 90% of the emails I get regarding ano I wind up recomending they use another anodizer because i won't be able to work in a time schedule they have.

3. Just because an email dosent get responded too does not mean its not read.

4. I get good ano pricing because i deal with alot of different anodizers (probly even some of the ones many people have recomended) and set up my contracts with them for the lowest price this often means my jobs get done "at will" when ever they have the time, or run a batch or any number of other variables. This is explained on the web page. I have had ano jobs complete in 3 days, and i have had ones that take 9 months. If i had a say in it I'd love for all the jobs to take 3 days.

5. Just as much as I dislike getting the " is it done yet" emails I WILL NOT bother the anodizers asking the same thing. Usually the first email I get form a person asking when the gun will be done is a standard "its in process" email then the subsequent emails are not responed to.

On monday I will be making a special trip, 4 hour drive out of my way to the anodizer that has the gun, I will pick it up as it is and send the gun back. I hope people will now be able to move on with there lives.


Wow, you're going to uphold your legal obligation and return his gun. Wouldn't expect you to actually complete the work and send it back to him in a timely fashion, and for free at the very least. Sorry to inconvenieve you with the four-hour car ride. That certainly makes up for the year-plus wait.

I think we've all learned a lesson about your business practices, although I don't blame you entirely; I am in awe that anyone would send you business with such policies as "no time frame" and "no email". Why would anyone send thier gear to someone who wouldn't tell them when to expect it or will not give them any information regarding its status? That's rediculous. FYI, nearly 1500 people have viewed your reaction to this situation; hope your stead-fast committment to your policies was worth all the negative feedback you've recieved from this thread. Next time, I would just answer your email. Maybe its time to rethink those policies.

[White Wolf]

Maybe if you would have read the posts and gotten correct information you would realize it was not "13 months" as you have repeatedly said...but "13 WEEKS" but why ruin a good rant with pesky facts.

And thank you for giving me more business, evertime one of these threads moves to the top I spike a 25-40% sales increase.

If you have problems with how i run my business there are planty of other choices for shops you are free to go to and I'd be the first on to tell you to go to them if what you want is not what I offer. Since i have been in busines for 7+ years now i think I found a niche market and am not going anywhere. All with out the need to advertise or whore myself on AO or any Other Forum.

[Flow_Tech]

^the OG..the man..the cool guy from the west..your best AGD hookup line..your best CCI hookup line..your best anodizer. :)

[firebanex]

Hey i got my phantom a month earleir than i expected the grey silver acid VSC 45 grip clear parts one... thanks WW.

and yes this is sending it to the top again... make you work more :p

[Magglerock]

^the OG..the man..the cool guy from the west..your best AGD hookup line..your best CCI hookup line..your best anodizer. :)


Yeah, he's the best - that's why this thread got started; because he's the best. Your business "spikes" on bad pub? Then I guess you should keep on doing what you do best; holding people's markers and not doing the job you agreed too. You're doing so well that you can't pay the bills on smithing alone, nor hire someone to answer simple email for you. Please. I know one customer you WONT get any business from; but then again, "business" would emply you doing what you say you will, which you seem to have a problem doing.
Oh, and as long as we're getting facts straight, this thread was started five weeks ago. I'm not sure you can add, so I'll do it for you. 13 weeks + 5 weeks = 18 weeks, and the job, according to you, will or won't be done when the kid gets his marker back. So yeah, 18 weeks (that's a little over FOUR months) of nothing certainly trumps my typo.

You know what's the kicker? You havn't offered this kid an appology. You havn't tried to make things right with him. You've done nothing but get defensive and try to cover your own butt. Now that's quality service! All you AOer's out there looking for friendly, timely work, look no further! :rolleyes: You're right; there a plenty of other places people can take their work, and I suggest they do. Do us all a favor: if that crap about bad pub spiking your business is true, don't take the business. Clearly you can't handle what's on your plate as it is. Later joker.

[Magglerock]

All with out the need to advertise or whore myself on AO or any Other Forum.


You sure about that? Here's a thread you started in the dealer's forum:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=129704&highlight=White+Wolf

"Finally got my ducks in a row and got some inventory built up. Good prices on AGD parts and markers.

RT Customs in stock in various Configurations

Karta and Chord V2 body options availible

Other things of interst to AO Members:
Custom Hardline fabrication, in SS and Anodizable Aluminum.
New Small lot Ano pricing on most single color ano's
CNC Rail milling for Warp bodies and or lightening

Also a dealer for CCI and WGP

As usual email me for best pricing"

As long as we're being accurate...

[splat15k]

1. Customers DO NOT PAY upfront, I have no ones money, I am not sitting on money to collect interest or pay for vacations or buy crack. I do this for exactly the reason so people won't think I am doing any of those things. People that read the page would know this, people that like to assume...well we know what happens when that happens.




ummm...you have $599.50 of my money...

[GT]

That's rediculous. FYI, nearly 1500 people have viewed your reaction to this situation

well since you asked allow me too add my ever important 2c's

I think I am becoming more and more disgusted at the morons who post on AO. It clearly states on his webpage that there is no time frame. If you can’t read it’s not WW"s fault.


You haven’t offered this kid an apology.

right......



17 weeks

That’s it? Hell I ordered a 1300 Viking and yet to have it in my hands, going on month four. How many guys waited 1yr+ for an X mag. if you are not patient then don’t ever try to get ANY custom work done ever again! I see this same crap posted about WW, Doc, Punisher, coolhand, AGD, etc. I am getting so dam sick of it! Do you have any idea what kind of favor these guys are doing by providing us with these services? Hell, two years ago there weren’t nearly as many custom choices for mag owners as there are now. I cant imagine how many other folks out their would love to become dealers or offer additional products but wont because of customers you can never make happy.


You guys have any idea how much it costs do get custom work done in other industries? I have had buddies that have had to wait for car parts for 1 yr plus, not to mention the litany of firmware and software update issues.

Take Home message here kids: If you have to have it now, go to your local pb store or wal mart

p.s If I was a mod, and luckily I’m not, I would ban people for this idiotic slander. BTW: WW could be working on someone else’s gun instead of dealing with this idiotic post.

Sidenote: I had an angel anno'ed with WW. It used to be on his webpage, Dust Blue LED, simply incredible job considering the shape it was in when I sent it. :clap: :hail:

[Magglerock]

p.s If I was a mod, and luckily I’m not, I would ban people for this idiotic slander. BTW: WW could be working on someone else’s gun instead of dealing with this idiotic post.

Sidenote: I had an angel anno'ed with WW. It used to be on his webpage, Dust Blue LED, simply incredible job considering the shape it was in when I sent it. :clap: :hail:

Where is the slander? Please point it out to me. The kid says he hasn't gotten his marker in 18 weeks. WW has made no rebuttle to the contrary. In fact, he says he's going to send it back to the kid, regardless of what shape its in, i.e., whether or not the agreed-upon work is done. Now please, point out the slander. In fact, its rather ironic you would call it slander, since that's exactly what you are doing by eroneously claiming that others are perpetrating it. You're happy to wait months for work? Good. No one asked you. This kid isn't, and many others arn't either. But you're right; if he says no time frame, then that's that. But you know what? If that's his policy, then what type of idiot do you have to be to do work with him? In fact, I believe he says that work could take two weeks or TWO YEARS. That's just retarded. Peroid. And he has yet to appologize nor offer a solution to the problem at hand. He got your marker to you quickly? Good for you. What if he didn't? Would you feel the same?

And while we're at it, we arn't just talking about the work; he won't even respond to EMAIL. How is this kid supposed to know whether or not he got scammed? Maybe a sentence "not done, please wait" would have kept him happy. But WW wouldn't even give him that. If I were him, I would have filed mail fraud charges by now, and maybe he should.

[GT]

What if he didn't? Would you feel the same?

No, I wouldnt because I can read. I understand what "no time frame means" Do you? You guys are wrong, plain and simple. I certianly wouldnt go onto a public forum to talk trash about it.


since that's exactly what you are doing by eroneously claiming that others are perpetrating it.

You sure are trying your best to demean a reputation, by which you are not a party too, nor do you read the binding agreement bewteen the two, i.e unlimited time frame, the craptastical basis of your argument.


Maybe if you would have read the posts and gotten correct information you would realize it was not "13 months" as you have repeatedly said...but "13 WEEKS" but why ruin a good rant with pesky facts.

I do realize that getting anyone to come to thier senses on a web board is slim to none. I just couldnt allow you to crack on someone anymore.


You can not wait for the best, you dont desrve it!

gt

[Muzikman]

Where is the slander? Please point it out to me. The kid says he hasn't gotten his marker in 18 weeks. WW has made no rebuttle to the contrary. In fact, he says he's going to send it back to the kid, regardless of what shape its in, i.e., whether or not the agreed-upon work is done. Now please, point out the slander. In fact, its rather ironic you would call it slander, since that's exactly what you are doing by eroneously claiming that others are perpetrating it. You're happy to wait months for work? Good. No one asked you. This kid isn't, and many others arn't either. But you're right; if he says no time frame, then that's that. But you know what? If that's his policy, then what type of idiot do you have to be to do work with him? In fact, I believe he says that work could take two weeks or TWO YEARS. That's just retarded. Peroid. And he has yet to appologize nor offer a solution to the problem at hand. He got your marker to you quickly? Good for you. What if he didn't? Would you feel the same?

And while we're at it, we arn't just talking about the work; he won't even respond to EMAIL. How is this kid supposed to know whether or not he got scammed? Maybe a sentence "not done, please wait" would have kept him happy. But WW wouldn't even give him that. If I were him, I would have filed mail fraud charges by now, and maybe he should.

Well, you have obviously never have done business with 90% of the custom shops out there. Doc Nickle has had peoples guns or projects for years. This is how must custom shops operate. If the kid was not willing to wait, why did he do business with WW? Yes, I am willing to wait as long as it takes to get the job done. If this means 5 years for a custom piece, I'll wait that long. Now that the problem is resolved, why don't you just drop it!

[FooTemps]

Alright, you have a point about WW making people wait and not sending emails and stuff...

But you see, a lot of these clients are:
a) impatient and ignorant to the world of customizing
b) untrusting (due to impatience)
c) constantly bugging the customizer
d) loud mouthed and annoying
e) not understanding of the time it takes to build something (it's a pain and takes time. For example, Nicad and Arowmic took weeks to get the karta design rolling...)

and customizing takes:
a) time
b) patience
c) trust
d) an understanding that it MIGHT take time
e) PROPER communication

You see how i bolded and underlined proper? Do you want to know what I mean by proper?
okay, I'l tell you. But first I will tell you what it ISN'T. The proper way to of communicating a concern over your custom work isn't constantly bugging WW, Doc, Pun, Coolhand, Rogue, etc. It isn't writing angry emails and threats to take legal action. Notice how many people fall into the category of improperly communicating their concerns? I'm sure you did, you're a smart guy.
The right way of doing it would be to not pester the customizer, maybe an email every other week would be cool since you should understand they have busy schedules with work AND their shops. You don't have to be sending angry emails, even one or two whiney, angry emails a day is annoying. Maybe you could actually talk about something other than "is it done yet?"... you know, maybe something along the lines of "i got an idea, i might want to tweak my order a little bit, wanna talk?"... something more friendly, then maybe as a side note ask for a quick update. Be tricky about it!
You see, the reason why WW and other customizers say "NO EMAILS" is because people can't write a friendly email every once and a while (that means not every other day, or every 3 days). They got sick of flames and threats and constant pestering so they decided not to waste their time with it. Now they're caught in a bad cycle.

You're right, it is a bad practice, but what would you do? Waste 2 hours responding to bad emails, and then spend another 3 responding to good ones? That's 2 hours of your time wasted and 2 hours that could have been used to finish up projects and cut that email count down.

[Magglerock]

Well, you have obviously never have done business with 90% of the custom shops out there. Doc Nickle has had peoples guns or projects for years. This is how must custom shops operate. If the kid was not willing to wait, why did he do business with WW? Yes, I am willing to wait as long as it takes to get the job done. If this means 5 years for a custom piece, I'll wait that long. Now that the problem is resolved, why don't you just drop it!

Why? Because the guy has yet to have his marker returned with the work as promised. And you're willing to wait FIVE years? Really, five years?

Some things that take less than five years:

The construction of an average 20+ story building
A Presidential administration
The construction of your average Virginia class nuclear fast-attack sub
The construciton of a CVN nuclear aircraft carrier
The design, choice, and procurment of a next-generation fighter

Now really, are you willing to accept that a custom paintball marker should take longer than five years? Stop being silly. The kid has a problem with this guy, and the guy is being an *** about it. This is why the business-end of this industry sucks - because most of its players are too young to realize how rediculous some of the stuff that gets pulled on them is.

And while we're on comparisons, here are some things that take less than 18 weeks:

The construction of your average single-family home
The repair a car that has been "totaled"
The fighting of your average late-20/21 century war

[Magglerock]

Alright, you have a point about WW making people wait and not sending emails and stuff...

But you see, a lot of these clients are:
a) impatient and ignorant to the world of customizing
b) untrusting (due to impatience)
c) constantly bugging the customizer
d) loud mouthed and annoying
e) not understanding of the time it takes to build something (it's a pain and takes time. For example, Nicad and Arowmic took weeks to get the karta design rolling...)

and customizing takes:
a) time
b) patience
c) trust
d) an understanding that it MIGHT take time
e) PROPER communication

You see how i bolded and underlined proper? Do you want to know what I mean by proper?
okay, I'l tell you. But first I will tell you what it ISN'T. The proper way to of communicating a concern over your custom work isn't constantly bugging WW, Doc, Pun, Coolhand, Rogue, etc. It isn't writing angry emails and threats to take legal action. Notice how many people fall into the category of improperly communicating their concerns? I'm sure you did, you're a smart guy.
The right way of doing it would be to not pester the customizer, maybe an email every other week would be cool since you should understand they have busy schedules with work AND their shops. You don't have to be sending angry emails, even one or two whiney, angry emails a day is annoying. Maybe you could actually talk about something other than "is it done yet?"... you know, maybe something along the lines of "i got an idea, i might want to tweak my order a little bit, wanna talk?"... something more friendly, then maybe as a side note ask for a quick update. Be tricky about it!
You see, the reason why WW and other customizers say "NO EMAILS" is because people can't write a friendly email every once and a while (that means not every other day, or every 3 days). They got sick of flames and threats and constant pestering so they decided not to waste their time with it. Now they're caught in a bad cycle.

You're right, it is a bad practice, but what would you do? Waste 2 hours responding to bad emails, and then spend another 3 responding to good ones? That's 2 hours of your time wasted and 2 hours that could have been used to finish up projects and cut that email count down.

Excuse me, but theyare being PAID to do the work. Paid. Not free. For a fee. Part of that fee is customer service. This is how business (in every other industry, but not paintball for some reason) works. If I called up Microsoft every day and pestered them about my windows, they would still pick up the phone and at least TRY to be helpful. I didn't see anywhere in this thread or mentioned by WW that this kid was flaming him or sending him an inordinate volume of mail. He DID try and change the subject (I.E., make notice of his address change) and STILL recieved no reply. Clearly, email is part of the business. If its taking two hours a day to answer, then cut back on your workload; you clearly have to many customers. You can even set-up your account to auto-reply email with simple messages "Thanks, work still in progress, check back soon" and update the autoreply as situations change. See? How tough was that. Not very. For someone who is trying to get customers, being beligerant and telling the potential market that they are privlaged to have their service doesn't exactly motivate me to use them.

But back to the topic at hand, as this has gone of it. The guy has had his marker for 18 weeks. He wants to know what the status is. He has a right to be upset when he gets NO response out of the person holding his property. Peroid. You can defend him all you want, but you know you're wrong. If this was de regular for everyother aspect of our lives, the world as we know it would not work. Prompt, friendly service is expected. If you can't deliver it, don't be surprised when people tell you they are unhappy with it, and you promply lose business.

[FooTemps]

Okay, I see your point, I said that in my previous post...

I was just making a generalization for on a broader range of clients... You know, the ones that usually screw everything up and cause the customizers to become cranky hermits.

I agree that there should be communication, but sometimes bad things happen and they stay bad.

[GT]

Some things that take less than five years:

The construction of an average 20+ story building
A Presidential administration
The construction of your average Virginia class nuclear fast-attack sub
The construciton of a CVN nuclear aircraft carrier
The design, choice, and procurment of a next-generation fighter

And while we're on comparisons, here are some things that take less than 18 weeks:

The construction of your average single-family home
The repair a car that has been "totaled"
The fighting of your average late-20/21 century war


Wow,
I dont think it gets any worse than this. We are not talking about simple construction on ANY of those projects. The R&D takes years if not decades. Bessides the average budget for all of those projects would be in the tens of millions of dollars. How much did this mag project cost again?

PM me when you get to admin a large project, even a small home, and tell me how it goes. I can gurantee that something will get screwed up beyond belief and it will be something stupid that any moron can pick up at home depot..... but it has to be purchased through this certian account, through this vendor.......

WW's website sums it up best:
"Fast, Good, Cheap: You can pick two. (don't pick fast)"

You will find this as the industry mantra, i.e. customization.


This is why the business-end of this industry sucks

you're right,
I think the problem with the paintball industry, if we can even call it that, is the consumer. Our dealers and fields make little profit that ever translates into capitol improvements. Tell me what industry survives on this little profit margin?

[Magglerock]

Wow,
I dont think it gets any worse than this. We are not talking about simple construction on ANY of those projects. The R&D takes years if not decades. Bessides the average budget for all of those projects would be in the tens of millions of dollars. How much did this mag project cost again?

PM me when you get to admin a large project, even a small home, and tell me how it goes. I can gurantee that something will get screwed up beyond belief and it will be something stupid that any moron can pick up at home depot..... but it has to be purchased through this certian account, through this vendor.......

WW's website sums it up best:
"Fast, Good, Cheap: You can pick two. (don't pick fast)"

You will find this as the industry mantra, i.e. customization.



you're right,
I think the problem with the paintball industry, if we can even call it that, is the consumer. Our dealers and fields make little profit that ever translates into capitol improvements. Tell me what industry survives on this little profit margin?

No need to pm you. I've worked in the federal appropriations process. You know, that little thing Congress does every year to keep the country working? If a less than a 100 people can draft, debate, conference and pass a $400 billion defense budget in under four months, getting a marker anno'ed shouldn't take this long. In fact, if I recall correctly, the entire anno process takes less than two days. But again, you are completely missing the point. I don't have a problem with the time frame on SOME work, and that is not the issue of this thread as it was oringonally posted. The problem I have is that WW refuses to talk to this kid, then gets on here an moans about his business and how hard it is. Even you, who seems to have serious comprehension problems, can admit that not responding to an email denoting one's change of address is unacceptable. Furthermore, rather than appologizing or attempting to at least end the discussion with civility, WW's answer to the issue is to return the marker with or without the work done, then boast how public negative feedback is good for his business. Now that's mature, don't you think? There arn't enough smiths out there, but the demand will change that. And when it does, folks like WW, Doc, and all the others who feel the can drag *** will be in for a serious wake-up call. Oh yeah, the problem with the industry is the consumer. That is a rather illogical statement; without consumers, there is no industry, so how can it possibly be the consumer's fault? All they are demanding is prompt, complete service. Functioning markers, quality parts, and reasonable delivery times. There is yet to be a company within this industy that can do all three, and that includes AGD.

My advice to those out there needing a mod? Go to your local machine shop. That's what I do. Their turn-around time is ussually about a week. Need something Annoed? Send it to PK or another of the larger companies. Most smiths are just amatuer machinists anyway; might as well use a professional. At least they understand the word "service", and they have no option but to listen to you when you show up at their door asking about your project.

[White Wolf]

Maggle exactly what should i be apologizing for? the one that broke this "contract" was the customer. What I promised to deliver was a first class anodizing job for a good price, it was explained that ther was "NO TIME FRAME" on ano jobs and there would be no response to emails about when the job was to be completed. This process was broken by the customer not me.

If you are naieve enough to think this kind of thing only happens in the PB industry you obviously lead a very sheltered life. In most all my dealings in other areas of custom work where i have been a customer when some one tells me there is no time frame i believe them, I let them do there job. Dealing with "artistic" people will never and should never be like calling some outsourced Indian Microsoft tech, even from that analogy its obvious you have never called microsoft for tech support.

Most of these problems seem to stem from inexperiance to how things work, which happens much more in the PB indusrty as it it driven by the under 18 crowd.

[magman007]

Oh my Maggerlock, you make me ashamed to be an Aoer. Look, CUSTOM WORK TAKES TIME! Ask Manike How long he has been waiting on his custom pgp's from Doc Nickel? A good couple of years il tell you that.

The consumer in this deal, should have noticed the no time frame clause, and went some where else. places like MAX anno, will turn around very fast, and for that fact, it costs a butt load more.


GET OVER IT. LEVE WW alone, he is getting the marker, and returning it. This thread is over, and you should get over it. it isnt your marker, so let it go.


Damn ignorant people

WW. I offer an appology on my behalf, as i would not like to be associated with Ao'ers like this. If ao has given you a sour taste, please, exclude my self from that taste, and the others that have stuck up for you.

thanks

-Bill

[cockermongol]

But again, you are completely missing the point. I don't have a problem with the time frame on SOME work, and that is not the issue of this thread as it was oringonally posted. The problem I have is that WW refuses to talk to this kid, then gets on here an moans about his business and how hard it is. Even you, who seems to have serious comprehension problems, can admit that not responding to an email denoting one's change of address is unacceptable. Furthermore, rather than appologizing or attempting to at least end the discussion with civility, WW's answer to the issue is to return the marker with or without the work done, then boast how public negative feedback is good for his business. Now that's mature, don't you think?
Now THAT is the problem at hand, gentlemen. No one here denies the fact that custom work takes time, and if you're going to get custom work done you will be expected to wait.

BUT THE WAIT IS NOT THE PROBLEM, PEOPLE! The problem is that people like WW can spend 20 minutes reading a 4-page thread and responding to it, but can't take two minutes to acknowledge the change of address of a customer. I think that is ABSOLUTE CRAP. It's not like you're working 24/7... you've already said you just send the guns out to be annoed elsewhere... So, explain to me WHY you seem to be TOO BUSY to answer a simple e-mail telling you about a change of address?



Maggle exactly what should i be apologizing for? the one that broke this "contract" was the customer. What I promised to deliver was a first class anodizing job for a good price, it was explained that ther was "NO TIME FRAME" on ano jobs and there would be no response to emails about when the job was to be completed. This process was broken by the customer not me.

He didn't ask when the job was going to finish (though I wouldn't doubt he wondered). He simply wanted you to acknoledge the fact that he was going to have A CHANGE OF ADDRESS. CAN YOU NOT GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL?



Oh my Maggerlock, you make me ashamed to be an Aoer. Look, CUSTOM WORK TAKES TIME! Ask Manike How long he has been waiting on his custom pgp's from Doc Nickel? A good couple of years il tell you that.

The consumer in this deal, should have noticed the no time frame clause, and went some where else. places like MAX anno, will turn around very fast, and for that fact, it costs a butt load more.


GET OVER IT. LEVE WW alone, he is getting the marker, and returning it. This thread is over, and you should get over it. it isnt your marker, so let it go.


Damn ignorant people

You OBVIOUSLY cannot read, and know nothing of what you're talking about, and you call HIM ignorant? Look in the mirror, bud. While time is a concern, it is not the REASON this has been one big blowup. The primary dilemma is the LACK OF COMMUNICATION. And NOT about time frames, about a SIMPLE, NECESSARY question regarding a change of address.

[CoolHand]

I'm probably going to regret this, but for some reason, I can't keep from putting my foot in the circle.

First off, I'm not here to defend WW, nor am I here to attack Aliens8MyDad, or to attack you, or take up your opposition's argument. All I want to do is say what I think, and then see what happens.

Alright, that said, here goes.

In the paintball business, there are many things that go on, which make it hard for a small company to stay around. Be it manufacturers who sell direct to the public for less than they will sell to me, or the random manufacturing difficulties, or the upstart competitor who is only around long enough to make people think your prices are too high (everyone has seen these guys), or the random project that refuses to go right no matter how hard you try, and the customer attached to said project who you cannot make happy afterwards.

All that crap, and then to top it off, your customer base never really grows. No matter how much people like to say that PB is growing, the fact is that the players turn over in a matter of months, not years. So we've got a bunch of new players, that's great, but the one's we had are gone - having moved on the bigger and better (or just different) things. This produces a more or less static market size, which is being competed over by more and more shops who all think they can do it better/cheaper/faster than the other guy. And on occasion, you will have a shop pop up that can do things well, cheap, AND in timely manner. This is usually due to having enough help, and the infrastructure to back them up. However, that all costs money, and because of this, these places seldom last long.

The larger share of the market they garner is still not enough to feed their expenses, and they fold. Thusly, you don't see too many of them around - this is not because no one has yet thought of it.

The shop with the lowest overhead prevails. Consequently, we can't have secretaries answering the phones, and a shipping department making sure all the parts go out without any delay, and a dedicated customer service guy to hold the hands of those customers who weren't blessed with patience.

We have to do it on our own. Which is fine. No complaints here. But, being only one person, and needing a certain amount of sleep in a day, puts a hard and fast limit on how much you can do.

This is where you have to make a judgment call, one which determines how well you and your customers will get along.

Do you take all the work you can find, and make everyone wait?

Or do you turn people away after you get to a certain point?

Will they come back again if you do?

Will they come back again if you don't?

These are all questions that each business owner must puzzle out for themselves.

In the past I was a take-the-business-at-all-costs kind of guy, but the longer I went, I realized that, for me, it was best to turn away the work I couldn't handle, and take care of what I had. That may not be the case for others.

I also seem to have a unique outlook on customer contact. If I'm busy, that email asking what all I can do to a Mag may get ignored, but if I have a customer's parts, I will talk to them (it may take me a day or five, but I get to it). It’s the constant "Are we there yet?" emails that get you down, and will usually be ignored after the first one (these are what prompted my infamous "announcement" on the main page of my site).

I also believe that there is a basic ignorance (don't be offended, it just means you don't know, not that you're stupid) amongst most younger pballers about how things work (which I try to remove every chance I get) that causes a lot of the friction between customizers and their customers.

Case in point: You have a customer's marker that is off being anodized. Unless you do it in house (which most of us don't), the time it takes is out of our hands. I've had batches take up to six weeks (due to problems). Now, if the customer gets antsy say four or five weeks in, and demands his marker back, what can we do?

Say the ano guy is local, then you drive over and retrieve the marker (done or not), and send it back.

Now what if the ano guy is in New York (and you're in Missouri)? Or California? Then what?

You can call and badger, and whatnot, and maybe get the marker back sooner than if you'd let them finish it, but you'll still have to pay them for the work they did. Now the kid has got his marker back, and he's pissed that it’s not done. What can you do?

Refund his money and eat the cost? That is a big deal, and the mindset of customers is kinda scary. If they don't like it, they don't want to pay for it. If they change their minds mid-stroke and screw the whole deal up, they don't want to pay for it, and some even go so far as to want it redone at no cost (that's two ano jobs on your nickel). What do you do?

You tell him no, and he tells everyone he can find that you suck and you screwed him.

You tell him yes, and you loose a bunch of money because of the customer's inability to make up their mind, and he never tells another soul how well you took care of him, only that you screwed up his ano the first time. So what can you do?

Make it turn out right and on time, every time you say?

It can't be done, not even by the giant industrial anodizers who do nothing but ano alum every day, all day. The ano process (and many other aspects of what we do) is so temperamental and so drastically affected by subtle changes that it’s impossible to do right every time. So what do you do?

Give up? Run away? Or soldier on as best you can?

Now, I'm not whining that my business is so hard, and no one understands, but a little bit of consideration is in order here.

Some folks are of the opinion that the customer is always right (which they are, to a point), and we should just shut up and ask "How high?" when told to jump. But the problem is, the customer can want and demand whatever they feel like, but what we can deliver in return is constrained by our resources and associations. Just because the guy wants his marker back right now, does not mean we can make it happen. Also, just because we can't make it happen, does not mean we don't want it to happen.

I am also slightly confused as to why people think that a project gone off course should be done free of charge? Here is a perfect example of this not being true anywhere but pball:

I race stock cars. They are expensive. Everything about them is custom. There are no "Off the Shelf" race cars (at least not the kind I run). Every one is hand built (in my case, mostly by me), and comes with no warranty. I have an engine builder who puts together some serious motors for me (650+ Hp), which cost a fair amount ($10k+). If something bad happens, say an intake manifold gasket doesn't seal, and the air leak causes a cylinder to lean out and burn a hole through the piston, that motor is junk. Now say this happens on the very first lap on the very first night that it’s in the car. It’s obviously something that the engine guy missed, cause we've had the motor for less than a day. Can we go back and demand the he rebuild it on his nickel? Nope. Should we? Not really. Think about it. Is there any way to test that motor to see if the intake leaks under the negative pressures experienced at wide open throttle? Sure. But the rig costs a ton of money, which would cause my $10k+ motor to become an $18k+ motor.

This just falls into the category of **** happens, and can't be blamed on the engine guy, any more than it can be blamed on us. He does the best he can, both to make us happy, and still keep his doors open.

The same is true of countless other custom work situations, anodizing being chief among them.

Another thing that disturbs me is the idea that the only ways to get anyone to talk to you, or take you seriously, is to be rude, and talk down to them, or threaten legal action, or make demands. I take everyone seriously, even the people who have bad grammar, and never use a single period or capital letter in a two page email. And I kinda get angry when I get an email from a guy who is mad that his $10 part didn't get to him in two days like he thought it should, and who then naturally assumes that I'm never sending it, and that I spent all this time and effort, just so I could steal his $10. A certain amount of that is to be expected, so I just let it roll of my back, and continue on. I would like to tell everyone who reads this that it’s not necessary to make threats, or even to be rude to get what you want.

The bottom line is, that we all do our best (whatever form that takes), and we want to see our customers happy, even when the deal goes sour, but at the same time, we have to make sure that the business survives, and often, that means making compromises.

Now of course, if I had all the answers, this would be LogicPaintball.org, so take what you read for what it is - my opinion (which just happens to be tempered with a little real world experience)

All that aside, I hope you get your marker back, and in a condition that suits you.

:ninja:

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

cockermongol, i appreciate that, its basically everything ive been trying to say. I mod x-boxes and even do a little work on guns myself but I assure you that I stay in contact with my customers, Im not saying Im as big or as overloaded with work as whitewolf but I do know what its like somewhat. really I would have been totally satisfied with a e-mail at least once a month (is that asking to much?) to just tell me whats going on. also whitewolf does state that you dont pay him till ano completion, but if he has possesion of my $900 gun is that not just as bad as paying him before... it seems like the same thing to me.

I PM'ed WW about the situation at hand and if he responds we can just let this thing die down.

but just a Q... if the gun is at the anodizers, shouldnt the wait from now on be minimal?

[Magglerock]

Now THAT is the problem at hand, gentlemen. No one here denies the fact that custom work takes time, and if you're going to get custom work done you will be expected to wait.

BUT THE WAIT IS NOT THE PROBLEM, PEOPLE! The problem is that people like WW can spend 20 minutes reading a 4-page thread and responding to it, but can't take two minutes to acknowledge the change of address of a customer. I think that is ABSOLUTE CRAP. It's not like you're working 24/7... you've already said you just send the guns out to be annoed elsewhere... So, explain to me WHY you seem to be TOO BUSY to answer a simple e-mail telling you about a change of address?


He didn't ask when the job was going to finish (though I wouldn't doubt he wondered). He simply wanted you to acknoledge the fact that he was going to have A CHANGE OF ADDRESS. CAN YOU NOT GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL?


You OBVIOUSLY cannot read, and know nothing of what you're talking about, and you call HIM ignorant? Look in the mirror, bud. While time is a concern, it is not the REASON this has been one big blowup. The primary dilemma is the LACK OF COMMUNICATION. And NOT about time frames, about a SIMPLE, NECESSARY question regarding a change of address.


Nothing more to add to this. Several of you folks clearly have difficulty comprehending the written word. I understand local communicty college classes offer remedial courses for people just like you. I would suggest looking into it. WW says he'll do the job, doesn't, and refuses to provided a status on the work. That's poor service, and its pathetic that you would rush to his defence over some poor kid who's been stuck, waiting, wishing he could get his marker back and go play. Now, not only will the kid be getting his marker back at somewhere around the 20th week mark, but it may or may not be done. But you're right, Mag007 or whatever you name is, its not WW, its the kid's. How dare he have the audacity to expect the man who has his proporty to provide a one-sentence email regarding its status. String him up, I say. Much better to gang up on a kid than expect an adult to behave as such. And you're ashamed of me?

[Magglerock]

Now, I've done business with Coolhand. He responded to email, and when asked about custom work, he told me whether or not he could do it. In fact, I could be wrong, but I think it says on his site he isn't accepting anymore work at the moment do to what he has already committed to. He is responsive and honest, and won't take work he can't handle. Good guy, good work, good smith.

A word to the folks attacking me because I stuck up for a kid who has had his market held hostage. What, exactly, is your point? How can you possibly defend such practices? Are you such sheeple that anyone associated with this board gets a pass because they happen to be associated with the board? The kid didn't read or assumed that WW's disclaimer wouldn't extend to nearly half a year's wait for what should be - at the most - a six week affair. But you know what? That didn't mean that WW can keep his marker until he feels like returning it. It didn't mean that WW could cut all communication until he got around to doing the work. He should have responded to simple questions - not flames or threats - with a simple answer. Custom work takes time, sure, and we should all be patient. But there comes a point where patiences runs thin, and in this case rightly so. Your blind defense of someone because of their relationship to this board is the reason AO gets branded a cult.

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

a couple things to be noted,

Im 18, (not sure if u consider me a kid or not, but i think im old enuff to know whats going on with my own marker, seing as I aligned the whole deal, and payed for it with my hard earned money.)

I didnt e-mail whitewolf everyday, every 2 days, or even every week. I kinda gave up checking on my gun assuming that whitewolf didnt like telling his customers whats going on.

I have a back up gun ive been playing with so im not tottaly out of paintball, but I have had to sit out a couple tournaments in the past 4 or so months..

I didnt expect the ano to be done in 3 weeks, or else I would have never gone with him in the first place, I know good things take time and I was willing to wait. what i was not willing to do was to be excommunicated from the person my had my hard eaned money (in the form of an e-mag)

If someone was doing custom work to a car that you had saved up and worked very hard for, even tho you had a uglier slower backup car, you would still feel pretty pissed if they didnt let you know what was going on at least once a month (is that asking too much?)

[Magglerock]

a couple things to be noted,

If someone was doing custom work to a car that you had saved up and worked very hard for, even tho you had a uglier slower backup car, you would still feel pretty pissed if they didnt let you know what was going on at least once a month (is that asking too much?)

Its not too much, and the few cult freaks on this board who tell you otherwise are dillusional. Good luck; I would be shocked if - after all this - you didn't get your marker back soon. Too bad it probably won't be anno'ed.

[Magglerock]

i.e unlimited time frame, the craptastical basis of your argument.


You can not wait for the best, you dont desrve it!

gt


The only thing that's "craptastic" around here is your reading comprehension. Yeah, the time-frame is rediculous, and yeah, he has a "disclaimer" warning of it, but what is really outrageous is his inability to answer an email that had NOTHING to do with the project, followed by his responses to this thread. I'm just trying to help another 'baller get his marker back. What are you doing, besides being an *** (something you seem to do with frequency around here)?

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

Its not too much, and the few cult freaks on this board who tell you otherwise are dillusional. Good luck; I would be shocked if - after all this - you didn't get your marker back soon. Too bad it probably won't be anno'ed.

well yeah, it will suck to wait for almost 5 months as if you were lending it away. If its at the anodizers the wait should be short, I will wait longer, I just need to hear something about my gun... thats all... but i will tell you I wont cry if he sends it back now, ill just go to max and pay extra cause at this point I dont give a crap

[FooTemps]

Maggelrock... just wondering... but have you read any of my posts?

Yes, I do defend WW and Doc and Pun (the customisers who don't respond to emails (but pun does have a forum he posts updates on)). And yes, I do agree that they should respond to emails. But you can't always get things like that. Do you know why? There is always the few that screw things up for everybody else. I've been trying to say this the whole time.

It's stupid that WW and such customizers don't respond to certain emails.

It's stupid that some people bug the hell out of WW and etc

It's stupid that they made a policy that they don't respond because of the people who bug the hell out of them.

It's all a stupid cycle. Maybe if one party stopped being stupid, the other one would too.

It's not about what they should do. You can't always stay on the right path or idea. If you could, marxism/communism would be a great goverment system and there would be world peace, no hunger, and widespread joy.

Edit: YES, THEY OUGHT TO RESPOND TO EMAILS so don't say I'm wrong because I'm agreeing with you. I'm just pointing out the problem so maybe we could come up with a constructive solution.

[vf-xx]

Maggerlock I think you need to calm down. You seem to be taking this too personally and whether you realize it or not, you're being quite offensive.

I agree with your overall point. Communication is key. I'll not get into it here, but if you want my opinion its been posted in the recent thread on Doc Nickel.

[GT]

The only thing that's "craptastic" around here is your reading comprehension.


Yeah, the time-frame is rediculous, and yeah, he has a "disclaimer" warning of it,

hhhhhmmmmmmmmm................. :rolleyes:


I'm just trying to help another 'baller get his marker back.

So lets summarize this whole debate, forgive me since I waited so long to flame :mad:

- Aliens sends marker in
- Aliens does not receive any communication for a period of 13-14 weeks. Of course there are these two great quotes, from the customer, which are grossly in error:

I believe 13 weeks is more than enough time
and

should I consider this theft?
- Aliens then posts here on AO. The cool thing that happened after he posted is that people who have done business with WW in the past simply state that this is normal for him, and further state what is on his webpage, in full public view, which aliens should know about

Now let’s get to the part where you come in-
- Magglerock starts to claim that WW is running off to canada/mexico with a 7-800 dollar gun or is using it every weekend at the local field or......
- WW posts on here a few times and had successfully failed at curbing world hunger and stopping terrorism
- WW is now going to send the marker back in whatever condition it’s in, pre-anno

Not only has Aliens, WW, and AO pissed away and inordinate amount of time on this issue but Aliens gun still is not annoed. Congrats you got his marker back. Although its not anno'ed and has been a complete waste of time for all parties involved. :clap:


If its at the anodizers the wait should be short, I will wait longer

Does anyone find this just a bit ironic? Maybe we should have done this from the start Aliens?



What are you doing, besides being an *** (something you seem to do with frequency around here)?

hmmm... Dunno about this. My pm, email, and aim's get pretty full from buds here on the cult, errr AO. SO I must not piss too many people off. I know Rogue has said on a few occasions that I always speak my mind, whether that puts my butt in the hot seat or not. Sorry but my opions are not always popular but that doesn’t mean they are any less valid. Allow me to insert a quick point here; my posts may come off abit rough. Don’t take this as if I hate your guts or think you’re a moron, what I do think is that you are way out of line. If I do meet you at the next AO event Ill be sure to pick up the tab on a few barely pops between us.

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

Does anyone find this just a bit ironic? Maybe we should have done this from the start Aliens?


well I didnt know where it was at the start, no communication. hell i figure he still had it sitting in the box all wrapped up on his tv or something.

If it is at the ano company for real, then I have no problem waiting. I just dont see why he couldnt tell me that, none of this would even be here if he had sent a couple e-mails to me.

[PissedGodzilla]

I just dont see why he couldnt tell me that, none of this would even be here if he had sent a couple e-mails to me.


AND THIS IS THE WHOLE DAMN POINT!!!! A little communication and NONE of this would be happening...

Be in communication with your customers, and everything would be fine!

[splat15k]

What really burns me is that he did take my money up front and has yet to deliver any product. I did not send a gun in for custom anno, I simply ordered an RT ULE Custom, which, according to his web site, should only take 7-12 days to get to me after he receives the payment....It is now 3 and a half months later and I have no flipping idea what is going on. I could be collecting interest on that 600 bucks he has of mine.

[Flow_Tech]

What really burns me is that he did take my money up front and has yet to deliver any product. I did not send a gun in for custom anno, I simply ordered an RT ULE Custom, which, according to his web site, should only take 7-12 days to get to me after he receives the payment....It is now 3 and a half months later and I have no flipping idea what is going on. I could be collecting interest on that 600 bucks he has of mine.


just thought i would tell you that as long as AGD is backordered,WWA is back ordered,which means until hes gets your gun from AGD,you wont have it..so dont blame him,blame AGD for not having parts.

[splat15k]

just thought i would tell you that as long as AGD is backordered,WWA is back ordered,which means until hes gets your gun from AGD,you wont have it..so dont blame him,blame AGD for not having parts.


I did blame AGD for the delay...for the first month and a half anyway.

[Flow_Tech]

Yeah, he's the best - that's why this thread got started; because he's the best. Your business "spikes" on bad pub? Then I guess you should keep on doing what you do best; holding people's markers and not doing the job you agreed too. You're doing so well that you can't pay the bills on smithing alone, nor hire someone to answer simple email for you. Please. I know one customer you WONT get any business from; but then again, "business" would emply you doing what you say you will, which you seem to have a problem doing.
Oh, and as long as we're getting facts straight, this thread was started five weeks ago. I'm not sure you can add, so I'll do it for you. 13 weeks + 5 weeks = 18 weeks, and the job, according to you, will or won't be done when the kid gets his marker back. So yeah, 18 weeks (that's a little over FOUR months) of nothing certainly trumps my typo.

You know what's the kicker? You havn't offered this kid an appology. You havn't tried to make things right with him. You've done nothing but get defensive and try to cover your own butt. Now that's quality service! All you AOer's out there looking for friendly, timely work, look no further! :rolleyes: You're right; there a plenty of other places people can take their work, and I suggest they do. Do us all a favor: if that crap about bad pub spiking your business is true, don't take the business. Clearly you can't handle what's on your plate as it is. Later joker.

and as for this comment,yes,he is the best,ive been dealing with him for,atleast 6 years,never a SINGLE complaint.

[splat15k]

and as for this comment,yes,he is the best,ive been dealing with him for,atleast 6 years,never a SINGLE complaint.



Perhaps your money is better than mine...

[Flow_Tech]

maybe its just because i know him,and hes a one man show..dealing with everything he does is alot on his shoulders..hes trying to pump out custom barrels,get ano done,take AGD orders+CCI orders,all while trying to keep his customers happy.dont flame if you dont know whats going on.

[Flow_Tech]

and hey,i will even quote it from his site.
Our Mission
Provide the lowest price on Guns, parts and service. Since I am a one man show and I have to deal with all milling, anodizing, disassembly/reassembly, packing, shipping, ordering, web design, and inventory. No employees means lower over head, lower over head means less cost to you.
"Fast, Good, Cheap: You can pick two. (don't pick fast)"
Quick notes:
1. Don't IM me and expect a response, the Computer is on but I'm seldom at it email me with any questions.
2. Allow email from AOL users, its the account I respond from. several people have blocked AOL users and have not been getting my email.
3. DO NOT EMAIL ME about when an ano job will be done, I say NO TIMEFRAMES for a reason. If you wanted fast you should have paid the 200$ for single color ano other companies charge.

[splat15k]

and hey,i will even quote it from his site.
Our Mission
Provide the lowest price on Guns, parts and service. Since I am a one man show and I have to deal with all milling, anodizing, disassembly/reassembly, packing, shipping, ordering, web design, and inventory. No employees means lower over head, lower over head means less cost to you.
"Fast, Good, Cheap: You can pick two. (don't pick fast)"
Quick notes:
1. Don't IM me and expect a response, the Computer is on but I'm seldom at it email me with any questions.
2. Allow email from AOL users, its the account I respond from. several people have blocked AOL users and have not been getting my email.
3. DO NOT EMAIL ME about when an ano job will be done, I say NO TIMEFRAMES for a reason. If you wanted fast you should have paid the 200$ for single color ano other companies charge.


That's only been posted a hundred times before and I am totally aware of his declarations. I also know that he is a one man show, but he did post that it should only take 7-12 days. It has been 3.5 months.

[TAG]

I gotta say this one really hits home with all of us at TAG.
We use Joe as much as we can and when we get our products back we get them back. Every item we have gotten from him was top notch and far better than anyone else we have ever done outsourcing with. This is why we recommend him when someone ask us for an annodizer.

Of course we can send the items off ourselves and yes we do have accounts with all of the larger annodizers but Joe is the guy we use.

We constantly have to defend ouselves on the net for our L O N G, Extended, take 2 damn long service times. Should we? No....but I guess it makes the customer feel better when you apologize for trying to do a job better than anyone else. Many times the delays are caused by other suppliers or even the customer themselves. Trust me when I say noone in the custom business likes to get hate mail or fit flinging rants on the internet. I am willing ot bet that most would love to just get the product back in a couple of days and everyone would be happy........but it always cant happen. As a matter of fact it probably only happens like this 10% of the time.

Show Joe some love and thank the paintball god that he takes pride in what he does. If he does the work at least it will be done right and you will have something to show off.

BTW.....Joe, sorry about all the recent emails from Dee asking about our current anno jobs ;) Can you actually believe we are being impatient....LOL

[GT]

No....but I guess it makes the customer feel better when you apologize for trying to do a job better than anyone else.

Show Joe some love and thank the paintball god that he takes pride in what he does. If he does the work at least it will be done right and you will have something to show off.




can i get an amen! :headbang: :hail:

[cockermongol]

Whatever, I still see this as a simple case:

-aliens is moving and tried to contact WW as to his change of address
-WW does not respond to aliens letting him know he knows the new change of address
-aliens posts on this site to try to get the community behind him because of such an OUTRAGE that it is when a company does not respond to a CHANGE OF ADDRESS REQUEST.

I still don't understand how you people can't see such a cut-and-dry case. If this were you I'm SURE you'd be frustrated, because you know if you can't get a hold of him then the next owner of your house is gonna have a shiny new emag, GET IT?

[Chronobreak]

i just dont get why aliens doesn just speak for himself he doesnt need U to defend him he can post here and state his case as he did u sir have no busines posting your opinions because there bases off of his....i agree with angelguy and gtrsi 100% :hail:

[cockermongol]

u sir have no busines posting your opinions


i agree with angelguy and gtrsi 100% :hail:
...

[cockermongol]

"-aliens is moving and tried to contact WW as to his change of address
-WW does not respond to aliens letting him know he knows the new change of address
-aliens posts on this site to try to get the community behind him because of such an OUTRAGE that it is when a company does not respond to a CHANGE OF ADDRESS REQUEST."

What part of that is an opinion?

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

and i do belive I posted everything I've needed to, just because someone comes and reemphasizes my opinion you claim i dont speak for my self... I could easily say the same to you, why not let whitewolf talk for himself instead of you all defending him.

just so everyone knows, he claimed it would be shipped out monday through a pm. not done, stripped from the line. I have no problem with this, and I think this thread should Die unless I dont get it back within a week.

[cockermongol]

So who are you going to have ano it now?

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

So who are you going to have ano it now?

http://www.maxanodizing.com

[tyrion2323]

Wow. This is still going on?

Hrmph. Well, it looks like the AO cult is at it again, stifling any dissension in the ranks. Of course! If you disagree with the big guys, you're automatically naive (NOT Naieve...) or impatient. Only on AO is it okay to piss all over some kid who hasn't heard word from the guy with his marker. 18 weeks merits a freakin email response, especially if you can somehow find the time to read this darned thread.

It is funny, though, that there are people trying to push the idea that taking on more work than you can handle and not communicating with your customers denotes good business skills.

Let me say it again: if you can't handle communicating with customers, you shouldn't offer your services. This doesn't mean calling them every day or emailing them every day. It's a simple short email every week or so detailing progress on the marker. If you can't handle spending an hour corresponding with your clients each week, then you've taken on too much work.

And please, please stop comparing this to waiting for an XMag. It's not even close to similar. AGD continued to field emails and phone calls and posted on the internet about how things were going.

[GT]

Wow. This is still going on?

Hrmph. Well, it looks like the AO cult is at it again, stifling any dissension in the ranks. Of course! If you disagree with the big guys, you're automatically naive (NOT Naieve...) or impatient. Only on AO is it okay to piss all over some kid who hasn't heard word from the guy with his marker. 18 weeks merits a freakin email response, especially if you can somehow find the time to read this darned thread.

sorry man your wrong,
his webpage stats excatly what he provides inregards to service, i.e. little to no email response. If you are unsure of what that means then maybe you should take your buisness elsewhere. This has nothing to do with who is who on AO, rather who can read...

[tyrion2323]

Actually, I'm not.

I completely understand his policy. He doesn't give time limits and doesn't respond to emails asking about the status of projects. I'm not arguing that. However, that's not what the email was about... It was a notification of change of address. It then escalated into a lack of willingness to respond to a customer who wanted his property back. Not only is that irresponsible, it's criminal.

And yes, AO is just as much driven by hegemony as PBNation. If you disagree with the "big guys," you will inexorably be verbally beaten down. Watch and see what happens when someone expresses dissatisfaction with (1) AGD (2) Automags or (3) Scenarios/Woodsball. A bunch of old school a**holes come out and punish them for "buying into the hype," or "being young and inexperienced," or "being a 15 year old with a Timmy." Don't try to deny it - it happens every freakin' day.


sorry man your wrong,
his webpage stats excatly what he provides inregards to service, i.e. little to no email response. If you are unsure of what that means then maybe you should take your buisness elsewhere. This has nothing to do with who is who on AO, rather who can read...

Perhaps it's not a question of who can read, but of who can spell. Or use the English language with at least an elementary understanding of its innerworkings.

Yowch!

[EDIT] Oh, and I DO take my business somewhere else. I use Fear Factory Customs. He's got better prices, better communication and a better overall attitude than Captain Wolf. We make contact at least once a week regarding my Omen, which is currently getting overhauled. I'm not revealing the Omen yet, but I can tell you that it's getting a full work over for less than the price of a single color gloss at WW's. His time frame: 1 month.

If anyone else is interested in custom work, talk to me about it or check out his website: www.fearfactorypb.elementpaintball.us

[minion450]

I came online to find help about WWA and found this thread. I sent my LED Angel to TAG to be disassembled then sent to him for anodizing in the end of April. I have been e-mailing him and calling TAG to get in touch with him for the past month and he doesn't answer either of us, until recently. "Still at the anodizer." This is what he sends. Same answer he gave me back on June 12th. I had friends get stuff anoed and it took about 3-4 weeks. I bought a Karta body that needed to be anoed and that took about 2 maybe 3 weeks. How could I possibly be happy about this? Why would I want to pay for this? Why would he take more work on if he is that busy, not even notification that he is this busy and it could take this long?

[splat15k]

I just wanted to let it be known that Joe (whitewolf) emailed me last night and it seems that everything is cool now.

[evan123]

For those of you complaining about a timeframe, check out www.maxanodizing.com

Now, grant it it's not as good as WW nor as cheap but it's fast.

Sorry but Max's anno owns everyones out there. They do the most incredible annos sometime and i highly doubt WW can touch Max in anno.

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

wow seems this thread put some fire under his a$$ to communicate with his customers.

[Empyreal Rogue]

Sorry but Max's anno owns everyones out there. They do the most incredible annos sometime and i highly doubt WW can touch Max in anno.

I still thing WW's Ano is best. Well, his Dust Finish is better than anywhere else I've ever seen. Including MAX's and Fear Factory Customs. The only thing pushing me away is his lack of communication. If he changes his policies in the next few weeks I'll definitely do business with him but until then, it's probably MAX.

[Magglerock]

Actually, I'm not.

I completely understand his policy. He doesn't give time limits and doesn't respond to emails asking about the status of projects. I'm not arguing that. However, that's not what the email was about... It was a notification of change of address. It then escalated into a lack of willingness to respond to a customer who wanted his property back. Not only is that irresponsible, it's criminal.

And yes, AO is just as much driven by hegemony as PBNation. If you disagree with the "big guys," you will inexorably be verbally beaten down. Watch and see what happens when someone expresses dissatisfaction with (1) AGD (2) Automags or (3) Scenarios/Woodsball. A bunch of old school a**holes come out and punish them for "buying into the hype," or "being young and inexperienced," or "being a 15 year old with a Timmy." Don't try to deny it - it happens every freakin' day.



Perhaps it's not a question of who can read, but of who can spell. Or use the English language with at least an elementary understanding of its innerworkings.

Yowch!

[EDIT] Oh, and I DO take my business somewhere else. I use Fear Factory Customs. He's got better prices, better communication and a better overall attitude than Captain Wolf. We make contact at least once a week regarding my Omen, which is currently getting overhauled. I'm not revealing the Omen yet, but I can tell you that it's getting a full work over for less than the price of a single color gloss at WW's. His time frame: 1 month.

If anyone else is interested in custom work, talk to me about it or check out his website: www.fearfactorypb.elementpaintball.us

OH SNAP! "Can I get an 'amen'"

[GT]

Watch and see what happens when someone expresses dissatisfaction with (1) AGD (2) Automags or (3) Scenarios/Woodsball. A bunch of old school a**holes come out and punish them for "buying into the hype," or "being young and inexperienced," or "being a 15 year old with a Timmy." Don't try to deny it - it happens every freakin' day.

This is so totally false. Look at the influential people on AO and you will be hard pressed to find someone who "hates" on someone (BTW we have a guy on AO who designs timmies so it would be counterproductive to hate on his own design) for their style of play or what gun they shoot. Have you been to an AO meet? Have you experienced what this is really all about? You need to get out from behind your computer and go to an AO meet. I will am willing to bet that you have never played with a more friendly, honorable, and trustworthy group of paintballers in your life.

Or you could pack up your bags and take the cult stigma with you; don’t let the log off button hit you on way out!


Perhaps it's not a question of who can read, but of who can spell. Or use the English language with at least an elementary understanding of its innerworkings.

I love these shots! You know your argument lacks substance so you rely on grammar and spelling errors to decrease the validity of my statement.

[FooTemps]

Oh god just quit arguing already, it's reached the point of stupid and pointless.

We can all read that we are making points and we aren't comprehending that we are all trying to make different points! We're arguing about different things people!

Some people here are arguing about customer service and business
Some are arguing about what his policy is
Some are just sititng here trying to point out the problem

JUST SHUT UP! WW is handling the situation already. Quit arguing with each other and trying to boost your ego and e-cool points or whatever.

Tyrion:
Just shut up and appreciate the OG's. I do know that there is cult status in AO but the OG's usually have sense. Those "big guys" that are starting that crap aren't really the BIG GUYS. You should know better yourself since you're acting all high and mighty and above the system. Kult of Kaye all the way! :p

People show dissatisfaction with AGD so what? AGD has problems, the main one is that they are still a small company that can't keep up with demand. Tom wants it that way. Most of the OG AOers accepted that fact already. I don't see any "big guys" that would actually go out and openly attack someone about it.

Automags have problems. So what's wrong with showing dissatisfaction? The only problem I have with the dissastisfaction is when people are asshats about it.

And I personally dont' care about the woodsball/speedball/scenario debate. Do you know why? It's because all of those are still paintball! Sure, I'll be likely to protect whatever category, but only with the argument that they are all part of the same sport and should be appreciated equally, even if it isn't your style.

Oh yeah, I've been posting longer on AO than you, I should know about the cult status of AO better.

Man... has ao declined... ::sigh::

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

well done foo, lets just end this.

[xXHavokXx]

MAX is better from what ive seen. my friend just had a gun done by them, he knew when they got it, when it was done, when it was shipped and when to expect it. Plus ive seen max's work on quite a few guns at the field. I've also seen WW's which is very good but MaX's is just more....dynamic like as you look at it it moves or catches your eyes, his fades are clean, his "camo" is distinct and his colors just seem to jump out and grab out. The stuff I've seen from WW has been more muted and calm. Maybe I just havent seen enough of his work. I guess its hard to describe colors without sounding like your stoned.

[adam_61550]

WW's site now says he's no longer offering anodizing: http://www.whitewolfairsmithing.com/serv02.htm

I e-mailed him to see if my gun was still going to be anodized due to the update of the site, and I didn't get an answer. This is not a flame, just wondering if anyone knows anything...