Spyder Mag

[tonybhall]

Hey everyone,

Thought some of you might find this interesting. I saw on AO where a guy had modified a spyder e-frame to fire his mag. I thought this was a great idea since it was a cheap way to go electro and b/c there are so many upgrades for spyder frames.

I told my team mate about it and after two days of working on it, he has a working prototype. The grip frame is from a spyder imagine. Keep in mind when you watch the video that the spyder imagine board is capped at 12 or 13 bps. He plans to upgrade to a faster board.

He says it was pretty simple to do if you have machine tools. He said it can be done in about 2 hours. Depending on what all you wanted, this mod can be done for between $90 with a base spyder trigger frame, or for $189.00 you can upgrade to a 50g micro switch, T-board (36 bps) with eyes and a blade trigger.

videos
http://kustombiker.com/pb/Spyder%20004.avi
http://kustombiker.com/pb/Spyder%20006.avi


the original discussion thread is located at
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=533969
and contains more details about the mod.
****Edited... Link fixed, it should work now.****

http://kustombiker.com/pb/Spyder%20001.jpg
http://kustombiker.com/pb/Spyder%20002.jpg

[Chicago Pb 7]

Your link does not work.

[AkumA]

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=533969

[tonybhall]

Thanks for posting a good link. once you get there you will have to scroll down. the pics and videos are in a later post.

[OysterBoy]

PLEASE Make a detailed write up!!!

I can get one for cheaper then an Intelliframe, so BOO FREAKIN YAH! :D

[OysterBoy]

http://kustombiker.com/pb/Spyder%20004.avi
http://kustombiker.com/pb/Spyder%20006.avi

Videos

[tonybhall]

PLEASE Make a detailed write up!!!

I can get one for cheaper then an Intelliframe, so BOO FREAKIN YAH! :D


Click in the link to PBN again. It has additional info!

[tonybhall]

*** Update: We have found another cool aspect to this mod. The mag is much more efficient. Or at least, it shoots deeper into the tank. Before, we could not shoot much past 1000 psi. Now, Daniel has been able to get down to around the 500 psi mark on his tank. :wow:

[barrel break]

veeerry interesting, if it works, and i get my mag, I'm VERY interested...

[Backyard Bandit]

Will it work on a ReTro valve? And where is this guy because I'm in the maket for a trigger frame, and actually like the spyder frames. Hey, you could add a trigger stop to remove the post-fire pull from the micro-swich... I'll do that... muhahahaha!

Umm... the link didn't work for me. Could someone who doesn't have a stoneage computer please copy and paste the info here please? Also, is he selling them or what? If he is, I might buy one. Or if it's easy enough, I'll modify my own.

[Ronin Baller]

My marker (new ULE X-valve) will cycle right down to the 400psi mark as indicated by my tank gauge. I know that all gauges have a 10% margin of error; let's say it's really 440psi. Am I lucky? I have seen other people post about not working under 1000psi, and I don't understand. I know the X-valve uses 450psi internally, and likes to be fed at least 650psi to avoid starvation.
BTW, this is my first mag, so please bear with me if this is a sophomoric question. :)

[warbeak2099]

Gaaah! Too bad I have no clue how to do any of the work you posted about on pbnation. I'm so not mechanically inclined. Any chance your buddy might do this for a price?

[jesseyo13]

Hey Ronin Baller, I would say that yoyur guage is VERY far off, mine would not work below 800. Ive tested it against 3 tanks too :headbang:

[AkumA]

true, under 800psi on either an AIR valve (and especialy a retro) is farfetched.

[budhall088]

Shweet. Just got a Mag from one of my friend's and have a e-spyder sitting right next to it. it's a loaner so I could put the old frame back on. :dance: WOOOOOOOOOOT.

[Ronin Baller]

Must be that low-quality Air America junk I use... :)
Seriously though, the gauges are around 8 years old; I guess it's time to replace them.

[tonybhall]

***Update, Daniel is getting his PC back this evening and may be back online as early as tonight or tomorrow. I will defer any future comments concerning this mod to him unless he asks me to field any questions. Thanks everyone for your interests.

[Backyard Bandit]

Could somebody PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE copy paste the original article on the spyder mag or email it to [email protected] or something!!! My P.O.S. computer will NOT load it, but I am desperate to see if I could do it myself! PLZ!!!

[tonybhall]

Could somebody PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE copy paste the original article on the spyder mag or email it to [email protected] or something!!! My P.O.S. computer will NOT load it, but I am desperate to see if I could do it myself! PLZ!!!


Here is a link to the first thread. http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=533969

here is the description of the process.

Hey Guys,

Here is a brief description of what was done. I will give you more when I have the time or Daniel will post up when his computer is fixed.

The only Mag part that had to be modified was the sear. A mech mag sear has a trigger rod attached to it. This rod has to be removed since it will not be used. It comes off without any tools.
THen the bottom of the mag sear has to be milled down so that it will work with the spyder frame. once you look at the two, it's pretty easy to see what needs to be done.

There are a couple of mods to the spyder trigger frame as well.

First, you have drill a hole inside the trigger gaurd for the front frame screw. This is were the trigger frame attaches to the mag.

Second, the mag rail has a little post that sticks out and helps hold the mag trigger frame in place. You will need to drill out a hole in the spyder trigger frame for this post to go into.

Third, you will have to dremmel out a channel in the back of the spyder trigger frame for the mag sear to fit into.

Last, you will have to modify the part of the spyder trigger frame that will actually activate the sear. Daniel cut this peice and the sear both at an angle so that they fit together. So, when the spyder trigger frame trigger is pulled, it just slightly pushes against the sear. With a ULT trigger pull on/off valve, it only takes the slightest pressure to fire the mag.

He has not tried this with a regular on/off valve and does recommend using a ult trigger on/off valve because of how little force it takes to activate it.

Once mine is done I will try to get some pics up of the modifications.

Hope this was helpfull.

[Backyard Bandit]

Thanks, tonybhall. I think I could do that. Can't like a regular drill press or hand drill be turned into a mill/dremel? If he gets some pictures of modifying milling the thing that activates the sear or milling the chanel in the back of the spyder frame for the sear and someone with a less crappy computer would post them I'd be gratefull. Could someone on pbnation PM him and ask for pictures for me?

[budhall088]

Yeah man, seombody definitely needs to put up some pictures of how the sear goes into the frame, what is done to the frame, and really anything you've modified. I've got the front of the frame cut off, and drilled the hole to mount the frame to the Mag. I just can't figure out where the channel needs to be cut or how the sear for the Mag goes into the frame. Do I leave the Spyder frame sear in? I would really like to know some more details about it, because if I take the Spyder sear out of the frame, the Mag sear is nowhere near the inside of the frame where it would need to be. I just want some pics of everything you've modded if that's possible please. :cheers:

[Bobsbarricades]

has anybody done this with a regular on/off valve?

[budhall088]

Well, I;m trying to. I can't finish it until I get some pictures!!!! lol, This is the only thing holding me back. :cuss: I just wanna get this done so I can say I have an electro-mag. :dance: :bounce:

[tonybhall]

********NEW UPDATE**********

I talked to Daniel today. I gave him the stuff to do the mod on my mag. He plans to take pics of each step of the process and post them here when he is done. He said he wanted to post the pics from mine because he thought he could do a better job on it now that he knows exactly what he is doing. He should be done in a few days. Expect an update from him with new pics and video by in about a week.

Also, I shot his today. It is so much faster than it was when we shot the video. He did a modification to the micro switch making it a lighter trigger pull. Now, out running the stock board in the spyder trigger frame is childs play. We will have to get a T-board and see how fast we can get it up to.

Thanks for everyone's patients.

[AkumA]

tony -
does your mag have a classic valve or retro?

just curious if the mod is possible with classic valves.

thanks

[tonybhall]

update 2
another update.....

I realized that I omited one step in my description of this mod. It has now been updated and can be seen on the first page of

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread....975#post5851975

[tonybhall]

tony -
does your mag have a classic valve or retro?

just curious if the mod is possible with classic valves.

thanks

My Mag has an X-Valve. We have not tried it on a classic. Here are our thoughts on that.

There are a couple of reasons that this might not work or might not work as well on a classic. First, the mags we are doing this to have the ULT which means a much lighter trigger pull than the stock on/off. We are not sure if the spyder trigger frame has the power to fire a mag with the stock on/off. Even if it does, we believe that it will not be as fast and will run the battery down much faster. Also, we are not sure if the classic valve will keep up with the ROF that will be possible with this mod. We have already outrun the stock board in the spyder trigger frame which is capped at 13bps. I don't think the classic was disigned to recharge that fast. I could be wrong.

If you put a ULT in your classic, that will help. But I still think that you will be shooting faster than your valve will recharge. But if you left the stock spyder board it, you would be limited to 13 bps. If you don't put out long streams of paint at that ROF you would probably be ok.

Hope that helps.

[AkumA]

my friend has got his ULT down pretty well on his classic, so thats why i was pretty sure of ULT working on classics.

i wouldn't mind attaining 13+bps. i'd probly end up shaving the double trigger to a single (running and holding the frame while running is a lot easier).

plus im a pumper, i save balls :D and my bigest pet peeve is short stroking.

...

so thinking about what i just posted, i probly answered my own question if the ULT tuned correctly in a classic, this should work.

[tonybhall]

so thinking about what i just posted, i probly answered my own question if the ULT tuned correctly in a classic, this should work.

I would agree. You will also need a level 10 if you don't already have one.

[AkumA]

I would agree. You will also need a level 10 if you don't already have one.

now...if i where to use a fast enough loader, would a lvl10 be nessesary? since the frame would nearly eliminate short stroking, and as long as theres a ball in the breech when the gun is to be fired, there shouldn't be a need for a lvl10.

i've seen my friend go without a lvl10 with no chops.

[Bobsbarricades]

actually the classic valve is supposidly capable of 16 bps....

[tonybhall]

thanks bob.

I was not sure how fast it could go. 16 bps is pretty fast. :shooting:

[Bobsbarricades]

thats what i said when i herd that. one of the reasons im really intrested in this. I have a classic valve with 2 o-rings inside the on/off housing, and that is aparently the only guidelines to have a working ule trigger, so if I can get a ULE kit, and a good deal on spyder trigger frame... i can get me an e-mag for about 100 bucks

[the electrician]

I've got a bit of knowledge in this department myself.

I built my own electro grip for the mag, and I have been doing some tests and modifications, running it on a classic valve.

I have found that putting an RT on/off in a classic valve reduces the needed force to actuate the sear by about half. this also does not hinder the recharge rate of the gun. when using a lvl 10, the RT on/off(a bit modified to work in the classic valve) and the electroframe, I have been able to get the cps up to 18 cps, without any noticeable drop in sound, but the actual bps is around 16 bps(just a bit above).

the ULT on/off will get around 11 bps on a mechanical classic valve mag, and when modified, it can do 13 bps on an electro conversion. this is because the sear does not have to push the trigger pin against the trigger, and the trigger finger, when it is returning. this let's it recharge a bit quicker.

now if you are using this spyder frame, modified to work on a mag, and it is capped at 13 bps, then with a bit of modification, you should be able to get the ULT on/off to do 13 in a classic valve, and the two would work well together. you could feed it with w revy, use a lvl 10 and consistently get a good 12 bps out of it no problem.

the only thing that concerns me about using this spyder electro frame on a mag is the solenoid energize time. can you adjust the energize time? you really should use atleat 30 msec of solenoid energize time, to keep from having abnormal wear, and perhaps lvl 10 problems. I know that the really short energize time that the spyder frame probably has, is very efficient on battery consumption, but it could be at a price of wear and tear.

sometimes the combination of a force feed loader and a really short solenoid energize time(like in a hyperframe) can cause the lvl10 bolt to not reset properly. essentially the sear is able to comeback and hit the bolt, (if the lv 10 is doing it's job and stopping on a ball) and put pressure on it. this pressure along with the pressure of the paint from the force feed loader can slow the lvl 10 down so much, it does not reset when it stops a chop, or it actually limits the bps of the gun. just something to look out for.

on a side note, the reason that an electro frame can get more shots per charge if you use the ULT on/off, is not because the solenoid really draws less current. it's because as the battery is drained the voltage goes down right? so the current draw goes down to. that means less power or force is generated by the solenoid. but since the ULT doesn't require as muc force, the solenoid is still able to do the job.


the other thing is if you are running an RT/X valve, and you can out shoot the stock spyder board, and you want to go faster, then perhaps you should think about a morlock board? that's what I use in all my homemade electro guns. no bps cap.

all in all, pretty cool stuff Tonybhall.

[tonybhall]

I've got a bit of knowledge in this department myself.

the other thing is if you are running an RT/X valve, and you can out shoot the stock spyder board, and you want to go faster, then perhaps you should think about a morlock board? that's what I use in all my homemade electro guns. no bps cap.

all in all, pretty cool stuff Tonybhall.

Thanks for all the info. We have looked into the T-board, the IS board and the XSF board. We are leaning towards the T-board. While it is capped at 36 bps, I don't think there's much chance of outrunning it.

Can you post up a link to info on the Morlock Board?

THanks again,

[ZapTheMad]

I did a Dragun frame conversion over the weekend and had a ton o fun! I am running it on an X-Valved ULE Mag. It works OK with the ULT but it doesn't work at all with the stock on/off. It runs up to 12-13 CPS. Anything higher and it skips (I have a 20 BPS LCD version). It seems that the sear is not resetting fast enough for the higher rates of fire. I am going to experiment a bit more after I get my adjustable tank and I think I can get the CPS up with a little more input pressure. I may also try increasing voltage using the stock on/off.

I decided to hack up a plastic frame first. The nice thing about this mod is that the sear is not modified at all. All you need to do is take the trigger rod off and the solenoid sits right against the sear.

Heres a couple pics. The top has been milled flat and this also lets the sear get deep enough into the frame to contact the solenoid plunger. The front is also milled off so there's no need to modify anything on the gun to make it work. The solenoid is reversed and the cavity is enlarged. I had to make a spacer to keep the solenoid from moving because the plastic frame is not capable of clamping the solenoid hard enough to keep it stationary. Another nice feature of the Dragun solenoid is that the actuator rod is pressed into the plunger. I am able to change the length of the plunger to make it push the sear a little farther by driving the rod out a little bit.

http://www.iodclan.net/zap/emag/emag1.jpg

http://www.iodclan.net/zap/emag/emag2.jpg

http://www.iodclan.net/zap/emag/emag3.jpg

[tonybhall]

Nice work Zap, keep us updated!

[warfrik]

I thought this might be a good idea. Try using an M92 frames for a dragun tes w/c is capped to 20 bps. Dragun frames and spyder frames are about the same.

[Bobsbarricades]

hmmm, i wonder if anybody can do this with a 32 degrees frame. Those are like 50 bucks new. spend another 20 on a t-board... and ur still under a kingman. any thoughts?


the electrician - could you possibly PM me, or post somewhere HOW you build your own internals for an electronic trigger frame. I figure you can buy a t-board, then go to radio shack and buy the part that actually moves, then go buy the 50g switch and be pretty set, but I dont know how to hook all the wires up. Thanks if you can, oh well if you can't.

[Paintball_4_Fun]

I did a Dragun frame conversion over the weekend and had a ton o fun! I am running it on an X-Valved ULE Mag. It works OK with the ULT but it doesn't work at all with the stock on/off. It runs up to 12-13 CPS. Anything higher and it skips (I have a 20 BPS LCD version). It seems that the sear is not resetting fast enough for the higher rates of fire. I am going to experiment a bit more after I get my adjustable tank and I think I can get the CPS up with a little more input pressure. I may also try increasing voltage using the stock on/off.

I decided to hack up a plastic frame first. The nice thing about this mod is that the sear is not modified at all. All you need to do is take the trigger rod off and the solenoid sits right against the sear.

Heres a couple pics. The top has been milled flat and this also lets the sear get deep enough into the frame to contact the solenoid plunger. The front is also milled off so there's no need to modify anything on the gun to make it work. The solenoid is reversed and the cavity is enlarged. I had to make a spacer to keep the solenoid from moving because the plastic frame is not capable of clamping the solenoid hard enough to keep it stationary. Another nice feature of the Dragun solenoid is that the actuator rod is pressed into the plunger. I am able to change the length of the plunger to make it push the sear a little farther by driving the rod out a little bit.


i dont get it how does the sear fit in?
can i see a pic with the sear on it?

[budhall088]

Are the pics of the original Spyder frame mod ever going to be posted up here? I have a half hacked up Spyder frame that I could have just left on the Spyder. I really would appreciate those pics. :confused:

[tonybhall]

*************UPDATE**********************

Sorry for the delay. Daniel is working on my Mag this weekend. I hope he'll have it done tomorrow (Sat.). Since his was done on a trial and error basis and was not done with cosmetics in mind, he did not want to post those pics. We had hoped he would be able to post pics as he was working on mine. But, something was wrong with the memory card for his digital camera. He says he thinks his son spilled somthing on it. :cuss: If he gets it done on Saturday I will take pics of it with my film camera and try to get them posted early next week. I will try to get good close ups of the Sear, the top of the trigger frame, the ESP plunger and any other part that is modified.

Also, for more regular updates, check this thread http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=533969
it is the most active and has the latest updates.

Here is where we are right now. Daniel is doing mine this weekend. He should have it done by Saturday afternoon (we hope). I will try to get pics and maybe a new better video on Sunday and have them all posted early next week. Also, once Daniel is finished with mine he will have a real good idea of the time involved to mass produce these mods and the amount he will need to charge (he thinks somewhere between $50-$75 plus shipping). Look for an official announcement on the price and how to get yours done by Daniel. He or I will be contacting each person by pm that expressed an interest and will also be posting a thread in the buy, sell, trade forum.

Stay tuned