Is K2/WGP the next Smart Parts?

[Gambit1106]

Well you can read it for yourself but K2/WGP is claiming that the Illusion from Action Markers is infringing on their intellectual property rights.

http://www.flagpull.com/comment.php?335

The industry is going in some interesting directions as of late.

Edit: Just read this too:
Flagpull has just heard the Jackal Machine (aka G3pb.com) ran by Terry and Jeremy Garrett may have recieved a phone call/letter/cease and desist order from K2 inc within the past few days. We assume this is in regards to the custom 'A/C' bodies and markers that Jackal Machine Sells.

Stay tuned for confirmation...

[Muzikman]

Damn...

Now they do have a small point. Everyone that first sees an Illusion says...hey look, a new Sniper. That being said, once you get down to the operation, it's not a sniper. So can someone sue someone else because of looks? If something looks "similar" but operates completely different, does that infringe on patents? A lot of us thought WGP/K2 thing would stop SP, but a few also thought that WGP/K2 would turn into SP, well, guess what happened. Well, guess what, big business sucks.

[Gambit1106]

I know that at one point I read somewhere that K2 was going to go after "knock off" cocker bodies. I am assuming that because the Illusion uses a non-WGP body that K2 is hitting them. Someone correct me if I am wrong on this.

[Automaget]

its a shame because i have no idead what the heck your talking about at all :confused: can you explain this so that the little boys and girls can figure it out better? :clap:

[Gambit1106]

This is what I am talking about:
After their acquisition of WGP, K2 has announced an immediate and aggressive campaign enforcing the acquired intellectual property rights of Worr Game Products (WGP) including the premium paintball markers incorporating its proprietary Autococker technology.

K2 Inc. intends to vigorously protect its investment as well as WGP’s rights by taking action against imitators who violate those rights. K2 Inc. will promptly investigate all reports it receives of customer confusion, warranty representation, and illegal importation of substandard or knock-off products. K2 Inc. will take all necessary remedial action to swiftly terminate transgressions upon its intellectual property rights.

Bud Orr, President of WGP in explaining this action to custom product manufacturers and players alike stated, “Our intent is to protect our customers from being misled by non-genuine Autococker product falsely presented in the market place. We are going to aggressively pursue all companies that we feel are manufacturing, marketing or distributing non-WGP premium markers as the Autococker brand or look.”

K2 Inc. looks forward to continuing WGP’s long-standing relationships with responsible custom product manufacturers. Bud Orr reiterated, “Our company wants to make sure that players have the opportunity to experience genuine Autococker brand markers including those from our approved custom manufacturers.”

[Muzikman]

hmm..so, if AM-P changed the look of the Illusion, they should be able to come out of this unharmed. hopfully that is the case, as the Illusion is a great gun.

[Fred]

K2 has no case...

WGP already tried this with AKA a few years back when AKA released the Merlin bodies... and LOST.

AM should have no problem at all.

---Fred

[cockermongol]

I don't get it- what is the difference, mechanically, between that gun and a sniper? How is it so "original"?

[OysterBoy]

Possible to think that AGD could sue SP for 'trade dress' mumbo jumbo? :headbang: :hail: :dance: :headbang: :hail:

[Steelrat]

Is it that they think they have an oustanding case, or just the resources to beat the smaller companies down? Since the letter hinted at Federal legislation being expensive, and since AM has already said they will comply with the letter, I guess this is another case of "might makes right."

[Empyreal Rogue]

Well if this case falls through, then can't AGD sue Smart Parts over the 2003 Shocker? :confused:

It certainly looks a helluva lot like the ULE 'Mags, that have been around for ages, and a lot of people at my field seem to think so too.

[Jack & Coke]

from:http://pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=536163


Originally posted by DocsMachine


AM_Andy, let me be quite blunt: If "Big Steve" actually stops making the guns, he's being an idiot.

He's doing precisely what K2 hopes- he's looking at the letter, fears litigation, and chooses to roll over rather than look too close or fight.

As far as I know- and I admit I'm no lawyer- K2 has almost nothing by way of patents, trade dress or copyrights covering Bud's markers.

Remember, back in 1997 Bud sued AKA over making centerfeed bodies. At that time it was revealed that WGP had no patent on any aspect of the 'Cocker, and had, in fact, at that point not even copyrighted the name.

Bud tried to argue "trade dress", IE, the look and "feel" of the marker (trade dress covers things like appearance of a product, for example the distinctive shape of a coke bottle) but the court basicaly threw the case out on it's ear.

THAT opened the door to other companies being able to make aftermarket bodies (Air America, AIM, Jackal, ANS, System X, me, etc) and since then the only thing that WGP has done- that I know of, I'll admit- is copyright the name "AutoCocker", and "'Cocker".

If you're not calling it an AutoCocker, basically K2 has no case at all.

As I posted over at the Tinker's Guild, if I were in the same position, I would tell K2 to "put up or shut up". In other words, tell me what, precisely, patent, trademark or trade dress I'm violating.

Cough that up, then we'll talk. 'Til then I'm gonna keep making guns.

You yourself said the letter was vague, never stating what you're infringing on. Like the infamous Nigerian scams, the letter looks good at first glance, but something's rotten underneath.

Doc.

[Blazestorm]

I was planning on getting an illusion too.

WGP is being stupid, like Doc said, they have no patents on anything the illusion is doing, they are insane.

I'm getting sick of companies fighting over one an other because someone else made a gun similar to theirs and people are buying it. I'd rather have 1,000's of options to choose from for a gun I buy, rather then 20.

[Steelrat]

The sad thing is that our legal system, like our political system, favors those with the most resources. A company can beat you into submission with a lawsuit even if its near-groundless. These kinds of lawsuits can take forever to make their way thru the courts, and even if they were able to recover their attorney's fees, it would be a long time coming.

I can't see this being an easy case to win, though. Carol Shelby tried something similar a while back with regards to the replica Cobras:


Shelby American Inc. and automotive manufacturing and racing legend Carroll Shelby, have launched a second lawsuit in Massachusetts Federal Court against a Cobra replica car manufacturer. This second action is against Superformance Complete Replicars, and follows a similar action brought against Factory Five last year. Both actions have been filed in the same Federal court and assert trademark infringement, dilution and unfair competition claims.

The suit charges Superformance with unlawful use of Shelby trademarks and other intellectual property rights. As is the case with Factory Five, the suit alleges that Superformance has manufactured and sold counterfeit copies of the famous Shelby Cobra 427S/C.

And here is the decision:


Ford and Shelby's company, Las Vegas-based Shelby American Inc., sued Superformance International Inc. in December 2000, saying the supplier of sports car kits was illegally using the design of Cobra cars built by Shelby in the 1960s. U.S. District Court Judge Rya Zobel dismissed Ford and Shelby's counterfeiting claims, saying that Shelby couldn't establish the Cobra shape was distinctive enough to merit protection. The judge didn't dismiss claims related to other Cobra trademarks.

Shelby failed to "present any evidence that consumers associate the Cobra design with Shelby, and Shelby alone,'' the judge wrote in a ruling released yesterday.

Unless WGP has a patent on the specific design of the Illusion, its going to be hard to prove that Action is impacting their business. People no longer automatically associate "Cocker" with WGP.

[tyrion2323]

The thing is, Bud Orr wants everyone to buy his bodies. If they don't, then he's going to sue them because it's a lesser-quality product.

Here's the catch: Bud Orr wants something around $300 for each body. :eek: that's right. That adds $300 to each cocker or focker that you want to purchase because it had to come from Bud Orr.

The thing is, companies are going to THE SAME EXACT SOURCES for the bodies that Bud gets them from. I'll use Hybrid, for example, since I'm sponsored by them and am familiar with their situation. They originally went to Bud for bodies. When they found out how much he was marking up the bodies, they decided to go instead to Bud's source for the bodies. They get the same stock bodies that WGP uses, just much cheaper and from the same guy....

It's simply a case of money. Bud wants it and now he and K2 are having a fit because they're getting beaten by cheaper, higher quality products.

Shazam!

[Steelrat]

Sigh, once again proving how inconsistent the Amercian legal system is.

[LudavicoSoldier]

<shrug> They should buy WGP bodies anyways. Afterall, most custom mag bodies are built off of slugg bodies...

I can see the lack of the threaded "angel" feedneck on the stock WGP bodies being an issue though...

[Pickle]

From Flagpull.com

ACTION MARKERS CONTACTED BY K2.


Some thoughts on all of the litigation, and threats of litigation, in the paintball industry...

We received a letter from the lawyers for K2/Brass Eagle/WGP on June 11, 2004. They are demanding that we "immediately cease and desist" from selling the AM-P Illusion marker.

As we sat and discussed our options at Action Markers, it occurred to me that one of the things that made Bud Orr a respected leader in the industry was that he didn't go around threatening to sue everyone like Smart Parts has done. While Smart Parts has been referred to as "Nazi's" because of their strong-arm tactics, I have read many posts and articles citing much respect and praise for Bud Orr and Tom Kaye. A large part of the respect given them was due to the fact that over the years they probably could have sued other companies, but chose not to. Many people have given them credit for encouraging innovation and growth in the paintball industry as a result of refraining from suing everyone.

So, what has changed with WGP? I suppose the fact that a large, multi-national company now owns them is what has made the difference. So... all this time was it just the lack of financial resources that prevented WGP from suing everyone that used the term "Autococker"(r)? I'd like to think not, but only Bud Orr knows the answer to that.

The letter we received is quite vague. It alludes to "patents, trademarks and/or trade dresses" but doesn't reference any. It states that they were "shocked" to discover that Action Markers currently sells markers that "infringe" their properties, and has caused "excessive customer confusion". Really? People are mistaking the Illusion for an AutoCocker(r) or a Sniper? I highly doubt it. I suppose it has been "compared" to a Sniper, but, causing excessive customer confusion? Huh? Give the players more credit than that... We have not received a single call from a customer asking to buy an Autococker(r) or Sniper from us. I wonder how many calls they have received confusing the Illusion with their guns?

Their letter also states that they plan to aggressively protect their "intellectual" rights, but the letter never mentions exactly what those intellectual rights are. The letter finishes by reminding us that litigation in Federal Court "can be very expensive". In other words, K2/Brass Eagle/WGP has a lot more money than puny Action Markers, so you may as well just give in.

Their threat of action is really too bad for the players. When we introduced the Illusion pump marker, we introduced several innovative designs. The Illusion is the only marker in the world to offer the pump player five types of interchangeable feed options. It also has an entirely different trigger system than the AutoCocker(r). It has an entirely different body and includes dual push rods which are flush with the body. In fact, there have been several articles written which explain that the Illusion is not a "Cocker" or a Sniper.

I recall Bud Orr, as well as numerous WGP employees, stopping by our booth at the Hell's Survivor's game in 2002. Bud took a good look at the Illusion and complimented us on it. "Nice gun" was his exact comment. If it was so obviously violating their "intellectual rights", shouldn't he have put us on notice then?

Because of the innovative features of the Illusion, it became a big hit with serious pump players. Is K2/Brass Eagle/WGP afraid of a small, new-comer like Action Markers? Obviously, rather than encourage competition, as we do, they would rather stomp out any competition with all of their might and financial power.

The only positive thing in this is that we take it as a compliment that they sent us their threatening letter. That means that they recognize us as a serious competitor and a company that they need to stop.

As a player, you may think; "what's the big deal.... so what if AM and other companies can't make a particular model?" Well, with Brass Eagle and WGP being bought by the same company, and now Tippmann being bought by a huge company, the industry is headed towards monopolies. With monopolies come fewer choices, less innovation and higher prices.

And, where will they stop? If our Illusion which only resembles their guns, is fair game, are they going to go after barrel companies that make barrels with Autococker(r) threads? After all, by K2's definition, they are infringing upon WGP's intellectual rights too.

While I think it's a mistake for K2 to take these actions, just as I think Smart Parts has made a big mistake, K2/Brass Eagle/WGP is right about one thing. We don't have the resources to fight them. Our only choice is to "cease and desist"!

If you are the type to keep score, this is (1) win for K2/Brass Eagle/WGP and (1) big loss for consumers and players. You now have one less choice. Undoubtedly, because of their huge resources K2 will score many more points in the near future, with paintball players being the losers!

As you may know, Action Markers' slogan is "Welcome to Tomorrow!" It signifies that our goal is to give players innovative products.

Well paint-ballers: Welcome to K2/Brass Eagle/WGP...

Note: The viewpoint expressed herein is strictly my personal opinion. I invite readers and paintball players to form their own opinion on the subject. "Autococker" is a registered trademark of WGP. The full text of K2's demand letter will soon be posted on the AM web site.

Sincerely,

Steven Deam, Sr.
Action Markers, Inc.
www.actionmarkers.com

[xsiled]

whine whine whine blah blah blah :tard: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[athomas]

I'm not a cocker guy. But, when I went to the website and looked at the markers to see what the fuss was about, I thought I was looking at a cocker/sniper clone. I can see how customers would get confused.

Edit: just fixed a grammar mistake.

[FreakBaller12]

http://www.actionmarkers.com/amProductPages/product%20images/diadem-photo-large.jpg

that has to be the most fugly grip frame evar...

[teufelhunden]

Why does everybody feel the need to make a new topic on a subject that already has 100 on it?

Seriously, look at the Flagpull date. 6/11. It's 6/13. Do you really think that all of the online paintball community has missed that for the past 2 days, especially considering SP's suits?

[Pickle]

My question was short and to the point. The letter posted was well written and constructed. Quite frankly I expected more the AO forum than this. Athomas I could see your point.

Devil Dog: I searched this forum and did not find anything relating to this specific topic. Start being part of the solution or at least a productive member of the paintball community instead of a self righteous "Adam Henry". :rolleyes:

[Creative Mayhem]

I personally think this whole patent issue is a load of crap. If it wasn't let go so long, then paintball would only be a fledgling sport. Innovations and excitement are the key factors that keep players playing, and new players coming back for more. Things like this make me ill... all it does is hurt the end consumer. I own a AM-P Illusion, yes it resembles a sniper/cocker(r :rolleyes: ), but it definately out performs it, hands down. I have also had the opportunity to play a AM-P tournament featuring the Diadem(the one with the "most fugly grip frame ever", and let me tell you, it may not look it, but it is very comfortable. People need to look into things more... its a relatively new company, they have some cool innovations, but with lawsuits and people's derrogatory comments based on looks alone, it no wonder why many companies have decided its not worth it to stay in the sport we call paintball. Just my .02

[AGD]

I want a serious discussion on this topic. Stupidity will be deleted without notice! This whole thing is playing an important roll in the future of AGD. Virtually everyone even using the name "Autococker" is getting a legal notice. This means accessory manufacturers too.

When someone in this industry gets sued and you use their products, you are getting sued too. Maybe its not going to cost you money but it does cost you in lack of choices, lack of future innovations and higher prices.

WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO START SUPPORTING THE COMPANIES THAT SUPPORT YOU??

That is the answer that holds the future for AGD, let these lawsuits continue and I promise you AGD will be gone in a year along with a bunch of other companies. More and more products are being sold through mass merchants and being made in China. The only way for small companies like AGD to survive is to innovate new and exciting products.

Right now there will be NO MORE innovation from the small companies in loaders, e-guns or cocker parts. The fear of lawsuits is causing us and other companies to drop products all together. Can you can imagine how many ideas are getting shelved that you never see?

I talked to (company name deleted for fear of lawsuit) about who they were suing. They said no its not those guys, its only THESE guys we are going after. Well that was a crock since I just walked away from an accessory guy who got notice. The thing is I really dont think the guy I talked to knew or really cared who was getting sued. He expressed the fact they could now handle all the products themselves and was tired of all these guys eating away at them.

Well I tell you, from my point of view, "ALL THESE GUYS" are what made paintball. They are me and you, players and dealers, thinkers and plinkers. You are making a choice and voting with your dollars. Please make your choice soon, tell me if your going to vote companies like AGD and others in or out of this industry I dont want to live inder the dark cloud of financial violence any longer than I have to.

Tom Kaye

[AGD]

Threads merged for continuity.

AGD

[1stdeadeye]

Well said Tom.

Dark days ahead indeed. :cry:

[coolcatpete]

Please make your choice soon, tell me if your going to vote companies like AGD and others in or out of this industry I dont want to live inder the dark cloud of financial violence any longer than I have to.

I vote you in Mr. Kaye
Pete

[luke]

Tom,

I find it very disturbing that you are on the verge of throwing in the towel. You really are one of the true innovator’s of the sport. Perhaps you can’t change what has happened recently with all the law suites and such, but you are one of the few that can change the face of the sport in the future.

My advice would be for you to join them in their own game. You have already taken the first step by dropping the E-mag line, which was a wise choice in my opinion. Why waste money in court when you can use it for product development.

Really there is only two choices for you at this point, either bring the sport into its next evolution by developing brand new ides that have never been attempted or conceived of (and patent every damn one) or choice two, throw in the towel and walk away.

I guess I’m an optimist, I think the law suits will force technology to change and move forward. Those that are not true innovators will be left behind. I don’t see why you are sweating the whole mess. You are probably one of the few that has the smarts to get threw this…

[gibby]

It's understandable for a company to protect their intellectual properties but the way the paintball industry is doing so is very sad and disturbing. I think the biggest problem with all this is the lack of standards. The problem is that the most popular gun became the standard, i.e. autococker barrel threading. Of course, this also spans other parts/functionality not just barrel threading. Back then, it was natural to say it has autococker threading to broaden the choices. Had it been the Spyder that was most popular amongst players, it would have been spyder threading. But no one knew how ugly it would get.

Let's take a step back and see how standards help with innovation yet still maintains a base to design around. For example, the bicycle industry. Bottom brackets, headsets, levers, grips, seats, etc...have standards. However, parts are made that adhere to those standards. Yet, companies makes all kinds of innovation without infringing on each other. This is what the paintball industry needs. So instead of calling it autococker threads, it'd be called something more generic, for example American or European bottom brackets, not spyder or autococker threading. There'd be no fueds nor claims of company B infringing on company A's name just to sell their product. For me, "autococker threads" listed as one of the features of a gun just meant that I had a wide range of choices when it came to aftermarket barrels. I never thought I was getting an autococker.

I can understand how companies want to get as much market share as there's a lot of money invested in this sport/hobby. But someone needs to step in and set these standards and take out the name association that are tagged on aftermarket parts. But the big question, who's going to do that? Problem is, no one is willing nor capable of doing that ... thus, all the law suits.

Tom, I wish you all the luck in surviving. I wished I could contribute more to the solution and say the right words that will change things around. It will be very disappointing to see your company be forced out because of all this.

[Pickle]

Tom, I wish you all the luck in surviving. I wished I could contribute more to the solution and say the right words that will change things around. It will be very disappointing to see your company be forced out because of all this.

Ditto. I have been playing for about 15 years now and I have seen firsthand how money and greed have destroyed this sport of "honor". Live by the sword die by the sword, I don't plan to buy any WGP products and have not bought any SP products. Why? Because I support the small guy, the brick and mortar stores...and as often as I possibly can I buy from them. I also have a ULE in the pipeline as we speak. :D

p.s. Tom please get rid of that bannana man :mad: . All I keep thinking is "this is not pbn, this is not pbn."

[GT]

Tom,
I really dont understand the legal proceedings as well as the totality of the sistuation....

SO k2 is sueing people who make cockers parts, of which about 90% are meer cosmetic, and people who make cockerish bodies. Lets be honest there isnt much performance difference bewteen a stock 2k4 cocker and the badest most expensive mech cocker, performance wise. It sounds like to me that K2 wants to be the only maker of autococker markers, perfectly fine with me they OWN the rights to the gun. If I am not mistaken AGD didnt take to kindly to a certian company making mag knock offs.




just walked away from an accessory guy who got notice. The thing is I really dont think the guy I talked to knew or really cared who was getting sued. He expressed the fact they could now handle all the products themselves and was tired of all these guys eating away at them.

I am sorry but I just dont buy this. Not saying your a lier, I am saying that K2 may not have any legal recourse for aftermarket parts. Take a look at the aftermarket for cars or even computers.



Lastly, As a consumer I dont see the list of SP related companies I think that the rabbit whole is now so deep that it is getting increasingly more diffuclt to buy from such companies.



Here is a A few comments I posted in the AKA forum:

I was under the impression that companies could have some kind of pantent/inteluctial rights insurance, I get the feeling that most, if not all, paintball companies do not or cannot afford this coverage. My guess, and its a big one, that in the buisness world if you recieve a letter on your desk about compyright/patent/trademark issues you would just forward it to your insurance/council and they would take care of it. Hell it could be tied up in court for years but it wouldnt cost you a dime since you were insured(directly).



p.s. there are so many sides to this issue that we could easly end up writing a books worht of text. Tom, if you can break away, come down to the next AO meet here in TX, I would love to pick your brain. I am sure you are able to be alittle more candid in person.

jason

[Lohman446]

I may be wrong in some notes, and right in others - look at this concern.

Barrels - do you ever see barrels for Impulses, Shockers, etc. not made by SP - no, because SP has a proprietry threading for instance.

Cocker barrels also have a "cocker" proprietry threading. I do not know what this threading is, most threading on nuts and bolts are referred to in a different format - like 10mm X 1.25 pitch, understand that is a small size, but I eventually see having to refer to the cocker threading as 3/4 find thread - or whatever it actually is. What if it isn't a easily defined one, what if we have to start paying K2 just to make a barrel referred to as having "cocker" threadings. Or feednecks, or detents... or whatever.

When you get into arguing trade dress you are generally stretching, its meant as an annoyance factor, but if you cannot afford to fight it sometimes you loose.

The industry is getting out of hand, with lawsuits flying around you have stalled innovation. The happiness that I keep in mind is that my e-mag, or my RT mag is still better than I can be, so I'm happy with them.

You will not see an innovation in loaders next unless it comes from Oddyssey, Ricochet, Viewloader, or someone willing to risk it. And why improve if you own the market? We may never see the improvements.

You may never see a "better" paintball - I hope now that TK owns "perfectly round paintballs" and can sue anyoen else that looks round for trade dress issues because they are not round.

This is a rant, but here you have honest, innovative companies either hiding and hoping they have the patents to hang on (AGD), being forced backwards in business (AKA), being forced to compete on unfair terms (ICD), allow themselves to be bought out by a company that can protect them (WGP), or allying themselves with a large company (SP, NPS, Dye). We have hit a problem in paintball, innovation has been hampered and put in the hands of those not only daring enough to try to make something, but willing to be sued over it and fight it out in court - which is likely more expensive than developing in the first place.

Tom, you have asked us where we vote - let me put it this way. You have my vote, my markers come from AGD.

Now you have a problem, tell me where the rest of my equipment comes from.

My tanks come from Crossfire, a smaller company based in Battle Creek MI, I have seen that factory.
My paint comes from Kick'n... another smaller company.

You get the point, AGD is not going to supply me with everything - it would be helpful to see a list of those companies that work on the "old principles" - but we need to know who they are and who they are not.

In my opinion, knowing nothing of the company and its financial standings, etc. I am of the impression that AGD main source of income is likely not the recreational/tournament paintball scene, but may be in its military and theatrics productions. Its time to see a super gun, a gun that harks back to the days of cooperation, a gun that harks back to the "glory" days of the sport. A conglomeration of sorts - AGD and WDP? AGD and Kingman? Perhaps its time for those who have not surrendered th fight to start working together, and see us through the times we are in now.

[coolcatpete]

Man I just bought a cocker too. Oh well.
Pete

[252]

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=140793



:)

[coolcatpete]

Threads merged for continuity.

AGD
here 252

[teufelhunden]

Someone said it somewhere else... maybe Blacksheep on PBR.

Everybody wants paintball to get huge and Olympics and on TV... but they don't want what comes with the territory. These are big business tactics, and like it or not, your push to make paintball bigtime and mainstream has brought these business tactics about.

Go ahead and call WGP Nazis, and boycott them, it'll hurt them as much as it's hurting SP [releasing plenty of new products, can't fill their orders fast enough..]


Said that in one of the other threads about this.

Tom, the fact that you're talking about folding within a year is weak. You've got the hAir trigger/whatever else you're doing, which alone will be able to carry the company. I'd also bet that with minimal modding, it could be applied to other markers. Imagine a mech Spyder shooting that fast. AGD has survived the past few years, and you haven't been moving 500k 'Mags a year. I'm not extremely well versed in patents in paintball, but your product line is extremely unique, so I don't see much that you could get sued for.

Or you could roll over and die.

[trevorjk]

man this is just sad... either microsoft or apple... maybe macintosh... but if you want true perfomance you go to alienware and falcon studios but at a premium cost... thats the way i see it anyways and i for one will always get the performance before the crap and if a vote is what your looking for then you have mine... i will be one of the first in line for that hair mod if it ever comes out... hell i dont even buy off the interenet anymore just so i can support the local stores. hmm im just pissed and really cant use my brain right now Tom you cant give in you have thousands of people who are willing to help you and AGD well i sure hope so

[teufelhunden]

:tup: for computer ignorance.

Apple=Macintosh.

Microsoft makes software, Alienware and Falcon make computers...

[trevorjk]

:tup: for computer ignorance.

Apple=Macintosh.

Microsoft makes software, Alienware and Falcon make computers...

yeah i just noticed that after i posted... like i said to much going on for me to think straight :( but i sure hope it gets my point across?

[logamus]

so does this mean that ule bodies are going to be pulled off the shelves soon?

[Beemer]

How candid can you be? Sure some things you cant say but what dont we know that you can tell us??

I dont brouse other forums much so there is probably much I and others dont know. So can you be candid with what you can?

I've been voting with my dollars since the PMI Mask. All AGD All the time. Mags, FlatLine,Warp, only 1 thing not AGD, tanks are good for 10 yrs or so and even then all I have to replace is the tank. FlatLine, Only reg with a fail safe.[if it doesnt come back it will be a standard of the futrure] Gun Valve rated at 3000psi [another standard] Put up the facts and see whos at the top for safety.

Whats the big picture? Help me out with some of the politics. What about Safety issues.

I keep doing the math and AGD keeps comming out on top.


I said no quotes so this is from memory.

Its tuff coming from a point of truth and constantly getting knocked down.
I have 5000 post that say I Care.
It would be a new day for AGD if it was mec only.

Ya like how can 47 people form a committee for standards[ASTM] and then just disregard them. Whats up with that.

If youre gonna get called out, show your hand.
If you step aside make it a big step and make the difference you and I know you can.

I'll never forget playing a game with the Panther[thanks]

There will always be reserved parking for the Wizard.

[GoatBoy]

Said that in one of the other threads about this.

Tom, the fact that you're talking about folding within a year is weak. You've got the hAir trigger/whatever else you're doing, which alone will be able to carry the company. I'd also bet that with minimal modding, it could be applied to other markers. Imagine a mech Spyder shooting that fast. AGD has survived the past few years, and you haven't been moving 500k 'Mags a year. I'm not extremely well versed in patents in paintball, but your product line is extremely unique, so I don't see much that you could get sued for.

Or you could roll over and die.

This is what I am afraid of. I have this feeling that AGD will get cold feet and somehow manage to kill the hAir trigger. I've got this weird feeling about what's going on in the background. It wouldn't surprise me, but it would certainly be disappointing.

I really don't know what to say about the rest of Tom's post. I agree that people are voting with their dollars. All badgering aside, I feel that I can trust AGD is at least TRYING to do the right thing.

I wish people would be more responsible with their money, but it isn't going to happen. The world's full of people who cannot overcome the insurmountable obstacle of ... themselves. They're not going to figure it out. It's too much to ask that people think, make decisions, and act on them. "HELP ME DECIDE?" You're beyond help.


*sigh* here comes mister banana! :dance:

Ahh, happy again.

[thei3ug]

Post from Aaron Alexander on "Trade Dress" and the WGP vs. AKA suit...


Do not forget that trade dress only applies to non-functional ornamental parts, i.e. the back block is functional to the operation of the marker and was never covered by the trade dress laws, which WGP tried to claim was non-functional to the marker and therefore was covered under trade dress. Again trade dress covers look and feel of something, a good example has always been the curvy shape of the coke bottle, which by the way the coke bottle was first patented and then later trade-dressed. WGP tried to also bring in copyright and patents stuff but we quickly shut that down when in the paperwork we showed there was not patents, copyrights or trade dress protection of any kind, WGP jumped to another subject. Yes, the judge dismissed the case with prejudice (meaning they couldn't sue us again) because of jurisdiction but it was the only easy way for the judge to throw the case out. Now just recently Bud and Jeff have both recieved patents. Bud recieved a patent for (yes you won't believe this) a Low Pressure chamber for the cocker. (Again the patents office shows that it's not doing its job when the LPC was already covered under AKA patents) and Jeff got a patent on the hinge frame. This is also interesting since Palmer has been doing a hinge type frame on his guns for over ten years. Also it wasn't until recently that they actually filed for copyrights. Bud also has his name copyrighted as well as they tried to copyright Jeff's name.

Aaron

Really, the past 5 years I've seen everything I've enjoyed in paintball being taken away through underhandedness and jealousy.

[PsychoBaller]

I hate paintball politics... can't everyone just play paintball and get along?

[slasherdan]

AGD will most likely get hit for having on their stat sheet for the RT ULE ... and all because it is worder as such "uses Autococker threads" ....

I wonder what kind of suit they would have if Tom were the change it to:
"uses a thread count that can be found on other top market markers."

That way there is no name listed. Or patent the thread count and then sue WGP ...

[thei3ug]

Well, instead of "AutoCocker® threads" you could say "Using the widely acclaimed 15/16"-20 threads"

[manike]

I'm thinking in future all guns I work on will have 'Standard' threading.

Now if that just happens to fit barrels made with '15/16"-20 threads' then wouldn't we all be lucky? ;)

You know Bud never made a print of what Autococker threads are... We should do a print of 'Standard threads' and copyright it, then release it for general use. I'd put a few less threads on it that Bud does, and give some nice set dimensions...

[G3PB]

I came home from DDAY to find a letter from K2's attorneys. It was a cease and desist order to stop selling products that bear the name "AutoCocker", "MiniCocker", and even "Cocker". Several Months ago, Jeremy at Jackal Machine received an email from WGP telling him he could not use any of those names in any of his product descriptions....now, as a dealer, they are telling me the same thing. Seems it causes mass consumer confusion.
Jeremy at Jackal is now looking into making his design of the 90 degree frame, similar to those he makes for the "AC", and the Impulse (SP hasn't threatened us yet:).

Anyway, to make a longer story short, I told Tom about it and he said" Make **** for the Mag, I won't sure you, do whatever you want."....so, since we both (Jackal and I) have really missed the Mag end of things, look forward to a future expansion.

I also have to say, Tom gave Jeremy a couple of slug bodies to mill on, he gave me an X-Valve, ULE trigger, and a couple of level 10 kits....so, Tom's the man. Of all the guns I've owned, I still have my Mag from '95 although there is nothing left of how it started. I never chopped or broke paint in it, I just never liked the triggers that were available....but, the times have changed

[trevorjk]

similar to those he makes for the "AC"


hrm are we talking autococker or air conditioning? see now im confused

[GT]

I'm thinking in future all guns I work on will have 'Standard' threading.
...


Simon in all honest I am not sure why this hasnt happend yet. It would be really nice if we had indsutry wide standards, ISO, ANSI. Simply if yu are going to build a 'gun this is what you need:

Cocker barrel threads
AKA vertfeed threads
cocker or angel detents


IF the industry were alittle more standradized our local shops could carry less overhead in random barrels and other parts, and spend more of their cash flow on other products.



(Jackal and I) have really missed the Mag end of things, look forward to a future expansion.


O wow,
You guys do some incredible work, and equally wonderfull customer service keep us posted here on AO.



I need help from the Industry guys
We, as consumers, need to know which companies to support and which to not support. So if there is anyway, through a few degreas of seperation, pass a list to a member here on AO for posting purposes. A memeber could clearly post whom to buy from to support the cause, without putting anyones job/livelyhood in jerpordy.

gt

[G3PB]

They cannot stop someone from making parts or bodies. Notice what Bud said, something to the effect that selling products represented as "Autococker" will be dealt with. Most all manufacturers received notice and fixed their problems before K2 bought out Bud. Jackal Machine just changed all the "AuctoCocker" listing to "AC". as did MacDev and others. Now it seems they are going after the stores that use those terms on other than WGP manufactured goods....we will just have to change our listings from "AutoCocker" to AC also.

Tippman sold for what I heard was 75 million to the Summit Group, a non-paintball conglomerate made up of private investors...like K2, they could care less about what they make so long as they make money......Seems to me that AGD is the only company that has any thoughts for the little guy, the player, or anyone else these days. If it keeps on this way, in a few years, I hope the politicians do manage to ban it all so that these companies will loose out and realize they cut their own throats....screw 'em.....

[openboater]

My feelings --- THIS IS GOOD FOR INNOVATION AND PAINTBALL. BAD FOR K2 AND BUDD.

When you hear the name Benedict Arnold, what do you think ?? Do you remember the American General that captured Fort Schuyler ? How about the American general that helped capture Fort Ticandaroga ??

Nope you remember the traitor!!

What will Budd’s legacy be ? Will it be one of a fine designer and manufacturer or a legacy of a man manipulated by large corporate conglomerates with greed and power as the end result ?

While I’ve always thought ‘crappers were stupid, I admired Budd for being able to make that silly bucket o’ bolts really work. But, if I find out Budd’s been swayed by $$$ and not morals, I for one am ready to condemn the man to a legacy of TRAITOR.

Why is it bad for K2 ?? well, they bought old technology and a dated design. They can have it. I owned one of those ‘Crappers once, man am I glad it’s gone. Anybody wanna’ buy a nice Betamax, How about a 8 track ? Maybe some 45 rpm records ?

Why is it good for paintball and innovation ? Hackers out there will start exploring new avenues of propelling paintballs by means of compressed air. Hopefully we’ll see something besides stacked tubes and those silly back blocks that move back and forth.

Tom, all I can say is for you to do what you feel in your heart, do the right thing. You may not die filthy rich, but you’ll have friends to the end. Just keep pluggin’.

[G3PB]

[QUOTE=spleefstylez]<shrug> They should buy WGP bodies anyways.
QUOTE]



Why? The last time I had 12 WGP bodies in here, none of them miked out the same. Yes, you can build a good gun from one, I'm not saying that, but there is a very wide birth in fit these days. At DDAY, there was an AIM built that Jeremy's bolt would not even attempt to slide into the bolt channel.....any of them can usually be built into decent guns, but to me, as an old guy that has an understanding of old-fashioned quality - meaning quality above profit, there is no comparrison....

And, since WGP seems to be going the way of Smart Parts, why would I wish to help them screw us as a whole.....I don't carry anything from SP on principle, not smart from a business end, but I'd rather take the loss anyday.

[thei3ug]

To expound on your point, the "wide berth" isn't just "these days," at any point in their manufacture of bodies, WGP always had wide tolerances. The fact that all of a sudden WGP came out with marketing "quality WGP bodies" over "cheap copies" is funny. Or it was, until people believed it.


cocker or angel detents
I'm sorry, but the correct term is "cooper-T detente." ;)
Problem. Different bodies are different sizes. Not easy to just say "ok, let's all use this ball detente now."

[G3PB]

The really sad thing is is that the only thing Bud came up with is the name "AutoCocker". He certainly did not invent the autococking gun and he certainly did not invent the Sheridan that his original gun was based on.

Unfortunately, there are some cheap junk bodies out there and WGP's are a little better...but, what will happen when they're made in China ? I'm going back to Mags.

[slasherdan]

Already gone MAG ... But I'm also waiting for my Palmer's to come back to me!!!

I was a little concerned about the Action Markers cutting their Illusion, and then I remembered that I have a Houndstooth and a Hurricane coming my way.

Now all I have to do it pick up my Warp Feed from AGD HQ down the street and my RT will be complete until the new trigger comes out.

:headbang:

[Muzikman]

First off, I now know where I will be doing ALL of my shopping. I have always liked G3PB, but that like just turned into love:)

I think this year's IAO is going to be interesting. I wonder if Debra would give me 10 mins to speak at their Industry Conference. I do think a list of stores (online or not) and manufactures that do not support the SP and K2’s of the world would be great to have. Anyone wanna work on this list?

[SlartyBartFast]

I came home from DDAY to find a letter from K2's attorneys. It was a cease and desist order to stop selling products that bear the name "AutoCocker", "MiniCocker", and even "Cocker". Several Months ago, Jeremy at Jackal Machine received an email from WGP telling him he could not use any of those names in any of his product descriptions....now, as a dealer, they are telling me the same thing. Seems it causes mass consumer confusion.

Seems reasonable to me. If you make after market parts, give them a name based on your own image and don't sponge off the image created by the OEM. Same as any other industry.

The owner of the trademark/name can then capitalise on its value.

Nothing stops aftermarket parts from listing what they are compatible with or what they install on. It's the difference between having "AutoCocker Swing Frame" on the top of the packaging or some name with "fits AutoCocker(tm) paintball marker" somewhere else.

In the first case, the product is capitalising on the trademarked name for promotion. In the second, it is the product's own name that is being used for promotion and the packaging simply states the fact it installs on AutoCockers.

As for threading and detents, saying Angel feed neck or AutoCocker barrel threading is incorrect anyways. Both are standard screw threads. It would be more accurate and correct to say AutoCocker(tm) compatible barrel threading. Can't be sued for that. It's a fact.

But if you say ULE Mags have AutoCocker threading, the lawyers CAN make a case that that implies the participation and/or blessing of the AutoCocker makers/trademark holders.

If you play fast and loose with either the AGD logo, name, or Automag/RT/RTPro/EMag names I'm sure Tom would be certain to look closely to ensure that no AGD participation or endorsement is even remotely implied unless explicit rights were given.

As for rolling over after a vague lawyers letter, well that's just lame. Just send a letter back saying you'll be happy to comply with their intellectual property rights as soon as they provide you with an exact list of which rights they feel you are contravening and how exactly you are contravening them.

[GT]

Anyone wanna work on this list?

Jason,
that is what I am talking about. Making a list, I am sure its not very long, of retailers as well as product lines that are still in it for the players. Problem is I would like input from guys that are close to the source, TK and Manike to name a few. Problem is I dont want to drag those guys into any potential litigation.

Kinda why I wanted to just get a few emails (I wouldnt use anyones name) from people and post it on AO and PBN. Some people will listen, some will think I am crazy, the difference is OUR voice will be heard.

jb

[G3PB]

I finished up all my changes a little while ago, I did not remove a single product. Tomorrow I will write them back. Just changed what I call them. After all, I would not wish to confuse you guys into thinking that the RDL's are made by WGP....these are far better.

[G3PB]

I think what irks me the most is the fact that they were sold to a company that is not Paintball...same as Tippmann selling out to Summit. All these guys like PB so much thay started making parts, then guns, or whatever...now some multi-national runs them.

Funny though. we all know what a Spyder clone is...do you think Kingmann is bent by that term? I really doubt it.

[nippinout]

So is K2/WGP trying to get more dominance in the aftermarket?

A big part of the AC is all the fun stuff you can throw on it.

Where would the AC be today without a 3 o-ring design x-way. The Eblade and Raceframe are what make the AC even present in the PSP and NPPL. All those aftermarket swing frames were out before WGP made their own models.

Players are paying less attention to the field and more attention to the court room. I have no problem with a company protecting their IP. But when they start using the court room or the threat of litigation as a means of financially strong arming a company when they did not even have any legitimate claims to begin with, it is very irritating.

[nippinout]

I think what irks me the most is the fact that they were sold to a company that is not Paintball...same as Tippmann selling out to Summit. All these guys like PB so much thay started making parts, then guns, or whatever...now some multi-national runs them.

Funny though. we all know what a Spyder clone is...do you think Kingmann is bent by that term? I really doubt it.

I found this: Summit Group (http://www.summit-group.co.uk/)

I'm not sure this is the right investment group, though.

If it is, not only did Tippmann go with a non-paintball company, they went with a non-American company.

:nono: :shooting: :mad:

[Butterfingers]

I think a solution is a aftermarket paintball manufacturers group. I union of aftermarket manufacturers.

Just like SEMA (Specalty Equipment Manufacturers Association) protects the intrests of automobile aftermarket manufacturers.

Give it a name make it look legit. When people are threatened to be sued they will bite.

[SlartyBartFast]

I think what irks me the most is the fact that they were sold to a company that is not Paintball...same as Tippmann selling out to Summit. All these guys like PB so much thay started making parts, then guns, or whatever...now some multi-national runs them.

Funny though. we all know what a Spyder clone is...do you think Kingmann is bent by that term? I really doubt it.

As long as the MARKETING isn't using spyder clone as a selling point. So that if Kingmann puts down a couple million dollars on an advertising campaign, their promotion doesn't help 'the competition'.

As far as the Multinationals "taking over", weel they can't do that till the little to medium guys "sell out". But come-on. If you start a business, money is one of the reasons you keep going. When the fun starts becoming 'work', or you have to think about the future, etc, nothing wrong in cashing in on the time and energy you invested and getting the best payback you can.

[cledford]

The really sad thing is is that the only thing Bud came up with is the name "AutoCocker". He certainly did not invent the autococking gun and he certainly did not invent the Sheridan that his original gun was based on.

Unfortunately, there are some cheap junk bodies out there and WGP's are a little better...but, what will happen when they're made in China ? I'm going back to Mags.

Um, Bud's bodies are already made in Taiwan - not sure what he does with all of that space in his new warehouse...

Is this Terry Garrett?

-Calvin

[Lohman446]

Please note: A lot of this post is historical conjecture - what I state is what I beleive to be true.

I guess the question comes to this - and it may or may not be the answer we like.

Is TK willing to move forward in the new paintball industry? Did far sighted diversifcation of AGD and his other interests put him in a position that it is possible to walk away from paintball? If it did, is he willing to move ahead, to continue to move forward with technology and innovation, or is it time to just quit - to find the K2/Summit/SP that wants the AGD name, and let go of the game he was such an important part of? Here it is, TK you have survived near direct copies of your markers (the colonial, the patriot) - you won then because you wanted to. Now you face legal issues, a restricted path of innovation, you are forced to think of an entirely new way to approach the problem. Does anyone have the old Automag manual - page ten and eleven are what I am thinking (you can find it on the AGD page http://www.airgun.com/Images/automan.pdf). You have new problems, new goals, new issues. You also have more resources, and a larger target audience (albeit with more competition in it). You have people comfortable with semi-autos, you don't have to fight to get people to accept them. You have the air source alternative - where CO2 plagued your early attempts at design. I do not expect that you have a company going to blatantly copy your design after you are done. Sure you have other issues to contend with, but you dealt with problems before and you overcame them. Is AGD going to be here next year? I guess thats up to you. You have my respect for all you have accomplished regardless of what you decide, it is more than I could have accomplished and we ask more of you now than most of us can ever do.

[DK1]

Um, Bud's bodies are already made in Taiwan - not sure what he does with all of that space in his new warehouse...

Is this Terry Garrett?

-Calvin

I thought they were from Mexico? I know either way, the tolerences aren't that great on what they've been getting. I wonder if they make any of their higher end stuff in the US still...

And isn't it Garnett? I'm fairly sure it's the man though. I've been a big fan of G3 for a while.

DK1

[Blazestorm]

I don't know what to do, me spending my 500-600 on an RT ULE isn't going to save AGD, but I want to support them, I currently have a Revenge owned by AKA because I support them (and my local store). This is frustrating to see a good sport go from being innovative and expanding to a way to make money, I get irritated when people say in videos about paintball how it's a multi-million dollar business expanding fast, that is true, but that is not what paintball is about. I would be happy if everyone shot pump guns, as long as I got to play, but what paintball is turning into, I just don't like it. Which is why I don't feel to support these big companies, Paintball is fun no matter where or when it's played, but when the sport is becoming something that I don't want to support, I'm not sure what to do. My friends want me to play tournies with them and have a good time, but I have just as good of a time in the woods, crawling through trees and hiding behind trees.

I'm debating whether to sell my revenge and get a Tac-One just to show my support for AGD...

My 2 top companies are AGD and AKA... next to PMI...

[G3PB]

Um, Bud's bodies are already made in Taiwan - not sure what he does with all of that space in his new warehouse...

Is this Terry Garrett?

-Calvin


Bud was already having his bodies produced in Taiwan?...that would explain the drop in price and the lack of quality.....

A few years back, Cockers were selling slow because of reputation, Mags are slow due to an ancient idea that they break paint.....now, if only we could get the truth out about AC's :)

Yep, this is Terry......

[G3PB]

I thought they were from Mexico? I know either way, the tolerences aren't that great on what they've been getting. I wonder if they make any of their higher end stuff in the US still...

And isn't it Garnett? I'm fairly sure it's the man though. I've been a big fan of G3 for a while.

DK1


Calvin got it - it's Garrett

[slasherdan]

Got rid of my Tiawan POS Armotech WG65 ...

got my RT ULE .... Just ordered my Warp directly from AGD ... just have to walk down and get it.

I'll never go Tac One because of my love of the original design of the AutoMag. Granted through the years I never had the chance to purchase one. Well I got my RT ULE and now I have to wait and order my WARP ULE .... I would have ordered it when I got my RT but I didn't know they were still available!!!

I'll post a pic when I get it up.

Besides .... My A5 is my scenario marker .... my RT I will use for every other game.

I think the only scenario I'll play this year where I don't use my A-5 will be Shatnerball ...

Well at least until I shoot Shatner or Mancow ... then I might switch to my a5 ... At least then I can still stay I gave them a AGD brand in the butt :shooting:

[slasherdan]

Hey Tom,

If you're a little concerned about the AC barrel threads, just post the thread count and remove the AC wording ...

THEN ... either make you're own barrels, OR contact all the company's that are being told to cease making "AC" barrels and tell them they can call them AGD barrels. No retooling on their part because I REALLY don't think WGP can "patent" a standard thread measurement on a barrel, and they end up lovin' you because you help them keep their product on the shelf.

In the long run new people will be looking to purchase a new paintgun and see the WGP has some options but it's only from them, or they can get a AGD markers and really personalize it because everyone out there will be making AGD parts.

Just a thought. Most likely you either thought of it already or it's been posted and I'm to lazy to read every one.
:sleeping:

[G3PB]

[QUOTE=slasherdan]Hey Tom,

If you're a little concerned about the AC barrel threads, just post the thread count and remove the AC wording ...

QUOTE]

I was told by an attorney that as long as "compatable with" is used and trademark considerations were observed, there is nothing they can do about it...

This is still paramount to the days that I listed "Dye Two-Finger AutoMag Grip Frame" but Tom never threatened to sue me for it.....seems rather obvious to any other than an idiot that this is a Dye frame...no one ever asked me if it were a genuine AGD part. No one was ever confused over it.....

[DK1]

Calvin got it - it's Garrett

Well, you learn something new every day.:)

DK1

[banzaimf]

and to think, I've hated K2 since they bought out Pro-Flex.

Anyways. Why is it that even as the knowledge rate doubles, innovation in big industry dies?

[G3PB]

Innovation dies when an industry looses competition. Without competition, there is no need to innovate. If a couple of companies wind up with virtually all of the Paintball industery, there is little need to outdo oneanother as they will seek their own markets and not even bother to compete with each other. Small guy will not have a chance.......if you are old enough, recall Ma Bell and even MicroSoft.

[amhildreth]

From the time I started playing with Caleb Strong in 1985, I've seen plenty of markers (and companies) go by the wayside. It used to be that the PLAYERS decided the survival of the fittest by their spending habits. What didn't sell didn't last. This whole flurry of vaporous lawsuits has me worried about the sport as a whole. I've owned an AM Illusion Pro for 1 1/2 years, and have found it nothing short of a dream. As a pump, the Illusion line is in a higher peformance class than the Sniper, and has far more flexibility for setup choices. Much to the wife's dismay, plenty of Snipers and Illusions have spent time with me on the field/my workbench/diningroom table, allowing me plenty of time to get a good "feel" for both. Aside from the barrel threading and basic external looks, the 2 are quite different. The Illusion has a much more direct internal airpath than the Sniper series. Using stock setups on both, with a set 265fps, the Illusion garnished 39-40 good shots before severe dropoff, compared to 17-19 on the other. I will admit than many have at first pointed to my Illusion and said "hey, is that a Sniper?", until both markers are set down next to eachother, and the two are then easy to tell apart. Due to function, those of us in the pump faction don't get offered many choices of body style - it's either a single-tube Nelson design, or stacked-tube Sheridan style. Action Markers should make some minor design changes to keep the Illusion alive, but I sadly doubt it would happen. It makes more financial sense to drop a product line, than to spend the time and money in R&D on a product with a limited customer base. My apologies for making this so long - I spend so much time writing product reviews, I seem to have forgotten the finer points of brevity. I am, and always will be a firm believer in letting the market, and not the corporations, decide what is best for the consumer, and loudly support Tom (and other innovators like him) for everything he has, and will continue to do for the sport we love so much. Go get 'em!

Andy "A.M." Hildreth
NorthEast Rep.
www.stockclasspaintball.com

[HurtZ_dOunut-ryan]

well if k2 wants to sue every body then that makes them look like jackasses cause everybody has somthing on there guns that may be on a cocker. It's obvious that AGD made the ule cocker threading to save people money. Cocker threaded barrels are the most common barrels sold so players will get a wide varity. some people may have previosly owned a cocker and still has the barrels.

I have went threw 8 guns and the automag has been the best shooting one ive seen. All of my friends use the WGP 03 cockers and to me they BLOW.

I think it is gay that K2 went around and messed evrything that is paintball

[G3PB]

Here's another one for ya.....

In my letter it tells me that will obtain injunctive relief to prevent me from selling the offending markers.....hmmm.....we do not, nor have we ever sold a marker. None, nada, zip, so what the hell is going on here. I have to assume that virtually everyone that makes or sells a clone will be threatened with suit other than those approved to do so.....

I though WGP already tried this with AKA......apparently K2 is will to throw the money into the wind in hopes of bankrupting smaller manufacturers.....

[TDonovan]

WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO START SUPPORTING THE COMPANIES THAT SUPPORT YOU??

That is the answer that holds the future for AGD, let these lawsuits continue and I promise you AGD will be gone in a year along with a bunch of other companies.

Tom Kaye

A year?! I've made my choice though... I thought about getting a WGP gun but really wanted a mag. Once these K2 issues started becomming trouble I decided that I won't buy ANYTHING from them. Another company to boycott just like SP.

I think that mags are probably the coolest and most innovative guns out there.

I plan to buy a ULE rt pro as soon as I can once I get to test it out a little more. But I would hate to see AGD dissapear anytime soon. Is there anything we as consumers and players can do to help you out aside from buying your products? I'd be more than willing to help to keep a good company in business, and keep the excellent ideas and products flowing.

[G3PB]

I just X-Valved and ULE triggered the same powerfeed body I've had since '95. I told Tom to send me an lightweight whatever, surprise me, so I plan on getting more AGD guns....and I can't even play anymore...that's how I show support. I think I'll put a tank into the works just so I can get on a big field again.

[SlartyBartFast]

Sorry, but the response and actions of AM-P are just spineless and lame.

I would have just responded that I would be happy to discuss which specific rights I was infringing and how I might satisfy K2. But until such time as specifics are provided no further action is warranted.

[Spaceman613]

AMP was looking at shelving the Illusion even before the K2 letter. So it became the straw that broke the illusion's back.

[SlartyBartFast]

AMP was looking at shelving the Illusion even before the K2 letter. So it became the straw that broke the illusion's back.
Still a bunch of wusses.

As long as they weren't losing money on them, the letter would have made me decide to continue selling them just to spite the lawyers and use up as much of K2s money as possible.

[MaChu]

It shoulda stopped with SP, but the lethargic paintball community didn't do one thing. Sad...just plain sad. I will give this issue a few more years and everyone that isn't owned by a big business will be gone. Its sad, unless we do something now.

Butterfingers had a great idea. Present the problem to all the aftermarket vendors at major events because everyone is there. Not only aftermarket vendors, but outreach your arm to all the gun manufacturers who aren't going to sue everything with a big pocket book. Get some heavy hitters like our own AGD, WDP(they are against SP), maybe a major distributer of paint like PMI(or are they part of National...), and maybe Kingman. Why Kingman? Because they basically own the lower market of guns, don't seem to care about clones and can move some weight around. If all these people came around, said as one along the lines of, "don't sue anyone or you will get screwed over" Maybe paintballs reputation for innovative small products will be saved... :confused:

[ZapTheMad]

I came across some interesting tidbits at COG.


This is Terry at G3 Paintball. I received one of the letters in question.
In our case and one item specifically mentioned was "Jackal 90 Degree AutoCocker frame". I was to cease and desist from selling this product because it would confuse you guys. What we did was just call it a "Jackal 90 Degree Frame". Anyone looking at our catalogue will know what it fits so the term that I used was not really necessary. Back months ago, Jackal, Macdev, and others received similar emails telling them basically the same thing although WGP's emails made it clear as to what the problems were. The letters from K2 are extremely vague. WGP, in their emails knew exactly what the problems were and addressed them accordingly. I imagine that since K2 knows nothing about Paintball, they let their attorneys guess at what may or may not be a problem. Case in point. One of the items specifically mentioned in my letter used the term "MiniCocker"...this morning I found out that that is not even copyrighted; so that tells me they're guessing at this point. I have made all the appropriate changes without dropping a single product from our line.

So, all the time that I sold a "Dye Two-Finger AutoMag frame", Tom could have sued me for using "AutoMag" in it's description.

While at DDAY last week Jackal and I ran into Tom. I informed him about my letter and he said, quote, "make **** for the Mag, I won't sue you, call it whatever you want, I don't care".....Tom was kind enough to completely upgrade my old Mag for free, X-Valve, ULE trigger, etc. He gave Jackal some Slug Bodies, and it looks at though we may push in a different direction. Jeremy at Jackal will still make all his AC goodies and probably come out with even more of them but Mag items may be bumped ahead of other guns just because we like Tom so much, especially now.

[1stdeadeye]

That is great. If Tom can convince more after market guys to do Automag upgrades so much the better for us!!!

[thei3ug]

whatever happened to that autoresponse frame you dropped into a benchmark?
How do you think that mod might work with a ULT?

[G3PB]

whatever happened to that autoresponse frame you dropped into a benchmark?
How do you think that mod might work with a ULT?

Trigger pull length was almost non-existent but it was too stiff by today's standards.....however, ask me again in a couple of weeks...I do have something in the fire based on that only with "assist".....

I had a couple years back but lost interest, but as soon as some parts arrive, I'll see what I can do with it again since I have renewed interest.

[Scott Hudnall]

I honestly think that AGD is positioned very nicely in the market at this time.....positioned to make a significant gain in market share, that is, with all the shtuff flying around from lawyers to the small innovators.

Let's face it...for us old timers.....the paintball high-end choice will never boil down to a choice between only 2 guns again (ie - automag and autococker) but the market has grown so tremendously in the past 5 years that a smaller market share could actually net more users of the product. And...if as indicated in an earlier post....the aftermarket manufacturers start leaning toward 'mag upgrades (bodies, frames, front grips, etc), then it will only help AGD.

It's going to be interesting to watch. I hope TK really puts his mind to developing the next AGD gun and/or next generation of 'mags, as well as upgrades such as the hAir trigger system. Could prove to be some really cool stuff.

Here's to the future :cheers:

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

Bud Orr, President of WGP in explaining this action to custom product manufacturers and players alike stated, “Our intent is to protect our customers from being misled by non-genuine Autococker product falsely presented in the market place. We are going to aggressively pursue all companies that we feel are manufacturing, marketing or distributing non-WGP premium markers as the Autococker brand or look.”

...DOWN WITH PSYCHO BALLISTICS, i got both of their fake cockers brand new and both broke within a day!

[GT]

Alright guys:


so here we are on page three and I have yet to see any actions items, wiskey tango foxtrot, what are we going to do. Thus far this is what I have found,

G3: is going to start making mag stuff
TK: will continue to make mag suff
AO: ***** and moan about how crappy the industry has gotten

Anyone see a problem with what AO is doing? AO this is going to be one of your final warnings: Do something now or face extinction.

[SlartyBartFast]

Anyone see a problem with what AO is doing? AO this is going to be one of your final warnings: Do something now or face extinction.


Honestly. Even if AGD disappeared, paintball would still be around. :rolleyes:

What do you want players to do? In the Autococker case, all the MANUFACTURERS have to do is stop using the word Autococker in their product names. :cry:

Like I've already said. Just because a lawyer's letter tells you to stop, doesn't mean you have to. :rolleyes: It's up to the manufacturers to get some backbone and put up a fight. To put up a fight, you don't always need lots of cash. Just putting up a minimal resistance to K2 or Smartparts would cost them a lot of money in lawyers fees.

[lopxtc]

One thing that gets me is that people are always saying that we need to voice our opinion through our pocketbooks ... in otherwords show your support for the little guy by buying their product over the big guys ...

Well here is where the problems lies for me, in paintball most (if not all) items that are involved are not consumable items. In other words you buy them once and you are done. So while I am in support of giving support to the little guy, it really is only good for a one shot deal ....

If you think about it allot of the high end aftermarket parts out there are great ... they work and they continue to work ... so once you have paid for it, your done. There is no buying the item multiple times. If anything some moving parts might wear out and you have to replace those, ala repair kits. Even then I dont see many people making aftermarket repair kits. Its typically one or two people for a given product. Not much support being shown there really as this consumable items are relatively cheap and can in many cases be bought from a bulk supplier (in case of o-rings, grease, screws, hoses, etc) ....

In many cases I can only think of a few consumable items that we use in this sport;
pods ....
lenses ....
paint ....
barrel swabs ....

All relatively cheap items and usually made by a ton of people (lenses being the only propriety (sp?) item up there) ... and in this case not the subject of a lawsuit.

Im willing to guess that the community is not full of people who buy a new marker ever few months or even years ... but by people who buy one marker and then work to upgrade it. In this situation you will eventually hit an apex ... you will not be able to go any further unless you buy a new marker. Many of the high end markers coming out now are not even needing aftermarket parts, heck AGD has been promoting out of the box and top of the line for some time.

This sport is not like any other sport with aftermarket parts (ie racing) that are full of consumable items .... its one thing to support a company by only using their tires, brake pads, spark plugs, etc .... those are items you know you will have to replace and choose an item becasue you like the brand ....

Someone tell me how in this support to continue to show support for the aftermarket maker when I really only do it once .... even given the number of players in the sport who would be making this one time sale.

I for one have no intention of buying another $1000+ marker just because I feel I need to support someone ....

Aaron

[ogre55]

People have been asking "So what now?" "How do we fix it?" "How do we make this right?"

The answer is that there is nothing to do.

As others have pointed out, if push came to shove, K2 has no case. They have no patent on the basic operation of the marker (that presumably still belongs to Benjamin Sheridan or their successors in interest) and if they tried to get one for the "auto cocking" aspect, Glenn Palmer has all but screamed that he would kick them where the sun don't shine.

All they have is trade dress, which, legally speaking is not all that much.

So if they have no case, what are they trying to do, you ask. They same thing that SP did. They use pressure to get people to enter into BS licensing contracts, which are still enforceable even if their patents are not.

Notice that now that SP is getting sued by WDP and that AGD is applying for patents on various aspects of electo-pneumic markers (I beleive AGD posted something about this a little while ago) SP is not so hot to go after everybody and their mother. Instead they get the licensing fees from all the suckers who signed on with them (DYE, NPS, etc.)

K2 is using the threat of litigation to get rid of as many competitors as it can before the fact that they have no legal leg to stand on becomes too obvious to ignore. Its a win/win situation for them.

So perhaps there is something that you can do after all. Spread the word that K2 is full of hot air.


Ogre

[MagRipper214]

i cannot stand this bull****. it ruins the ****ing sport, makes me sick. i just wish everyone would stfu and stop making their guns for the money, and make their guns just to have cool guns for everyone. like millions of other people have said, innovation is what makes the sport grow, companies are sueing left and right now, the ICE Epic guy just sued Jack Rice over the Alien, because it uses a ram operated trap door, which is only somewhat similar to his design. i hate all this crap about "blah you stole my idea im going to sue your balls off" sometimes i consider quitting paintball because of all this arguing and bickering bull**** that goes on all the time, on every forum, on every field, everywhere. Companies like WGP and SP are ruining our sport that we love, that we are so dedicated to we spend every ounce of time reading every new little thing that happens or comes out, and daydreaming all day about when the next time your going to play is. thats what paintball is about. its everything, its fun and exciting, competitive, its the biggest rush ever, and people are ruining it for me and many other. i just wish it would stop

[DK1]

UPDATE...


http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=9013&messageid=1088188799

DK1

[SlartyBartFast]

UPDATE...

Very cool. Hope they sent an apropraitely worded letter to K2 and the lawyers. ;)

[rabidchihauhau]

So where do you people fall when the following occurs:

AGD gets their patent grant for the electronically actuated sear, Tom starts to make a new product depending heavily on the patent, and some Chinese clone eats AGD's lunch on the market because they can build 12 guns for the same $ that Tom can build one?

Would AGD be right to sue in defense of their patent - or should he just let it go because trying to control an idea is a 'bad' thing?

No arguments about quality, please. Chinese 'cockers' are/were eating WGP's lunch regardless of quality because just about 99% of our market is easily distracted by glittery, shiny, advertising hype.

[Lohman446]

So where do you people fall when the following occurs:

AGD gets their patent grant for the electronically actuated sear, Tom starts to make a new product depending heavily on the patent, and some Chinese clone eats AGD's lunch on the market because they can build 12 guns for the same $ that Tom can build one?

Would AGD be right to sue in defense of their patent - or should he just let it go because trying to control an idea is a 'bad' thing?

No arguments about quality, please. Chinese 'cockers' are/were eating WGP's lunch regardless of quality because just about 99% of our market is easily distracted by glittery, shiny, advertising hype.

First I want to know what Chinese "cocker" we are discussing, please tell me its not the DragunFly that wished it could have competed with a 'cocker want to be thing that took a VERY small segment of the market. Besides AMP is not Chinese, and I am certain the people on this board that received cease and desist letters for the parts they produced are not producing them in China.

As for the above happening - it did in one form in the British Colonial, guess who won on that one - though I will grant it was not Chinese competition?

IF it happened, if there was a Chinese version made to compete with the automag maybe its right. What I am unhappy with K2 and SP over though does not involve Chinese competition, in fact Im pretty certain SP has stayed away from the major Asian manufacturer Kingman.

[DK1]

So where do you people fall when the following occurs:

AGD gets their patent grant for the electronically actuated sear, Tom starts to make a new product depending heavily on the patent, and some Chinese clone eats AGD's lunch on the market because they can build 12 guns for the same $ that Tom can build one?

Would AGD be right to sue in defense of their patent - or should he just let it go because trying to control an idea is a 'bad' thing?

No arguments about quality, please. Chinese 'cockers' are/were eating WGP's lunch regardless of quality because just about 99% of our market is easily distracted by glittery, shiny, advertising hype.


If AGD were the ones to acutally invent the system, I would have no problem with it. If AGD were to take a design that wasn't theirs, make it popular, then try to claim that they have protection of the design based on a trademark on the name of said product... then yes, I'd have a problem with that.

DK1

[SlartyBartFast]

First I want to know what Chinese "cocker" we are discussing

The "Chinese Cocker" argument is a red herring. It doesn't particularily matter where in the world the competition is coming from and ALL cockers were produced in China anyways (or at least all bodies were/are). Part of the deal WGP had for the body production is that the producers could sell complete guns to any other market except the US.

If a company owns a patent and the basis of the patent is just, I don't think anyone would bellyache over its enforcement.

But if the patent is frivolous (use of standard compenents, switches, and batteries) or foundless (unfounded vague and frivolous cease and desist lawyers letters), then I think everyone should make as much noise in protest as possible.

[Linkwarner]

At my field the other day, we were discussing this topic, and came to the plain and simple conclusion... Smart Parts = Satans Pants. no not really, but we thought what would happen if Kingman took this route of sueing all of these people, Kingman would be extremely rich, they would also be able to sue WGP, for the T-Ranger. just a thought..

[ogre55]

At my field the other day, we were discussing this topic, and came to the plain and simple conclusion... Smart Parts = Satans Pants. no not really, but we thought what would happen if Kingman took this route of sueing all of these people, Kingman would be extremely rich, they would also be able to sue WGP, for the T-Ranger. just a thought..

As far as I know the T-Ranger is no longer in production.

While Kingman could theoritically sue all the compnaies making Spyder clones under the doctrine of trade dress, they would have little to no case, just as WGP/K2 has not real case against AC.

Ogre

[rabidchihauhau]

ok - so what it seems to come down to is that YOU - the uneducated public - want to be able to analyze a patent and, based on nothing more than your 'feelings' about it (or the internet rumors you happen to fancy at the moment), make a decision as to the moral and ethical fiber of the patent owner...?

I've read so MANY incorrect assumptions about patents, patent rights and how they affect lawsuits etc that only one things is clear to me: the people here who know what they are talking about are not saying anything...

[ogre55]

ok - so what it seems to come down to is that YOU - the uneducated public - want to be able to analyze a patent and, based on nothing more than your 'feelings' about it (or the internet rumors you happen to fancy at the moment), make a decision as to the moral and ethical fiber of the patent owner...?

I've read so MANY incorrect assumptions about patents, patent rights and how they affect lawsuits etc that only one things is clear to me: the people here who know what they are talking about are not saying anything...

Thank you for that enlivening and erudite comment, however, aside from insults do you have anything to add?

Ogre

[HurtZ_dOunut-ryan]

ive previously owned a 2002 cocker and every time i would upgrade it with a new 3-way or something it would take awile to time and dink with it. Now i own a stock automag that i upgraded with the ule body, double trigger intelframe, lv 10 bolt, ule trigger pull, and a reg then i put it all togather and right off the bat worked perfectly!!!!!!!

TAKE THAT K2 AND YOUR SKATES AND SNOWBOARDS SUCK!!! :headbang:

[Linkwarner]

yeah but this is a "what if" scenario.

[Beemer]

the people here who know what they are talking about are not saying anything...

Thats classic.

[DK1]

ok - so what it seems to come down to is that YOU - the uneducated public - want to be able to analyze a patent and, based on nothing more than your 'feelings' about it (or the internet rumors you happen to fancy at the moment), make a decision as to the moral and ethical fiber of the patent owner...?

I've read so MANY incorrect assumptions about patents, patent rights and how they affect lawsuits etc that only one things is clear to me: the people here who know what they are talking about are not saying anything...


I agree that there are quite a few poorly researched positions on patents (which the K2 demands have nothing to do with), however I am interested in just what it is that you have been enlightened about that the rest of the poor dumb public has missed?

DK1

[Scott Hudnall]

Please, Rabid.....you're an old timer...like me.....

give us the low down on the true patent issues. I'm not bashing anyone (and certainly, am not being disrespectful towards you).....give use the inside scoop.

And, while we're at it....why couldn't Benjamin-Sheridan sue the crap out of everybody else for using their upper bolt/lower hammer set up? It seems to me that all these guns, from the F1 to the spyder, etc, are simply scaled down clones of the VM68. I'm being sarcastic, of course, but come on now...let's hear it for the old timers.

I think that TK's comments about the paintball industry being in a weird state at the present time (not his words exactly....I'm paraphrasing) is worth everyone revisiting.

[Scott Hudnall]

and BTW, I still think the 'mag A.I.R. valve is an ingenious design.

In case no one has told you recently, TK....Way To Go!!!!!!

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

[Worrgames2k98]

damn man, k2 just had to expand there territory into paintball, the sport that stayed away from all that crap, yea i think wgp is going to become the new sp, as much as i like wgp and there guns, i would have to say they will start becoming the new smartparts. What has paintball become? i guess now its all about money, soon it will be just like any other major league sport, i would hate to see that, but thats what it seems like this is becoming...