No Al Qaeda Cooperation with Iraq

[Chojin Man]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/16/911.commission/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The panel investigating the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks found that there was "no credible evidence that Iraq and al Qaeda cooperated on attacks against the United States," according to a staff report issued on Wednesday.

[Jack_Dubious]

Bah!! Impossible!! Cheney says there are definate ties to AlQaeda, and hes never wrong.

Well at least we found those WMDs!

:rolleyes:


:p
JDub

[aaron_mag]

We didn't need them to give an official report to know that!!!

This thread is going to have a very short lifespan. We know the routine. One side will say, "Finally you guys can see that you were mislead" (the sane side to my eyes).

The other side will say, "First of all you can't trust CNN. Second of all the 9/11 commission is just a democrat ploy to undermine our fearless leader and put a democrat in the White House. You can't trust anything it says...."

:rolleyes:

Arguing it is really pointless. The old saying is the first casaulty in war is truth applies...

And for this election (not to mention the war in Iraq) it really is war to both sides. People on both sides of this issue feel really passionately about it. And I suppose we should...

[Head knight of Ni]

:wow: CNN is the devil FOX News is the only PATRIOTIC news source. :rolleyes:

However the Oil did have connections to al qaeda so it was attacked. :shooting: :spit_take

[cphilip]

Did you people read the whole thing? Or am I the only one? "they found no evidence" is the key phrase...

However they also reported:

The report says Osama bin Laden "explored possible cooperation with Iraq during his time in Sudan, despite his opposition to (Saddam) Hussein's secular regime. Bin Laden had in fact at one time sponsored anti-Saddam Islamists in Iraqi Kurdistan.

"The Sudanese, to protect their own ties with Iraq, reportedly persuaded bin Laden to cease this support and arranged for contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda."

A senior Iraqi intelligence officer reportedly made three visits to Sudan, finally meeting bin Laden in 1994.

Bin Laden is said to have requested space to establish training camps, as well as assistance in procuring weapons, but Iraq apparently never responded.

"There have been reports that contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda also occurred after bin Laden had returned to Afghanistan, but they do not appear to have resulted in a collaborative relationship," the report said.

Sounds like this pannel found plenty of attempts at colaboration and efforts to WANT to collaborate...but "found no evidence to substantiate" anything ever came to fruition at least tied to 911 attack (the narrow focus of thier inquiry). Thats what it says anyway... At leasts this commission did not find any direct link to 911 planning. So...

[cphilip]

We didn't need them to give an official report to know that!!!

The other side will say, "First of all you can't trust CNN. Second of all the 9/11 commission is just a democrat ploy to undermine our fearless leader and put a democrat in the White House. You can't trust anything it says...."

:rolleyes:
.

You weren't misslead. You missread. It clearly DOES establish meetings and attempts to collaborate. But can't substantiate it ever happened. And all along you said there were NO TIES! This just lends credence to that fact that there might have been and indeed there was an attempt and reason to do so.... ;) Game, Set but still no match...

[Chojin Man]

the bush administration stands by the link between al queda and saddam

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/06/15/bush.alqaeda/index.html

[cphilip]

And this commission just proved some of it is true. Not nesscariy linking it to specific 911 but linking them to Sudan and a reasonable effort to cooperate was afoot. If not carried out to some extent. That remains murky what and if they ever did end up succeeding on cooperating on anything. But they did meet and attempt to do so.

[taylor492]

I read the whole article(what else am i supposed to do at work?)

im just really tired of this subject

[cphilip]

Good but then why are you posting on it? :confused:

[taylor492]

same reason you are

[cphilip]

hehehe... well I never said I was tired of it.

Ok now that Sudan has been brought into the picture....

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0614/p06s01-woaf.html

Seems the Arab leaders there are enbarked on a Genocide. Where is the UN in a resolution. Someone want to protest putting Sudan a notch or two up now on the "hit list"?

[aaron_mag]

And this commission just proved some of it is true. Not nesscariy linking it to specific 911 but linking them to Sudan and a reasonable effort to cooperate was afoot. If not carried out to some extent. That remains murky what and if they ever did end up succeeding on cooperating on anything. But they did meet and attempt to do so.

With all due respect Phil...look at what you just typed? You are saying 'well this is murky...but they did attempt to meet...etc."

Are we going to commit troops and resources on murky evidence? Are we going to start dropping bombs and 'well it might be true...might not...but oh welll....you can't really be sure on such things...."

I still believe that if we had focused on Afghanistan (had the number of troops in Afghanistan that we have in Iraq) it would have been BRILLIANT!!! Everything was clear cut. Osama had screwed with us. We said, "Give him up...or else." They said, "Well let us think about it." And we said, "Too late!"

But we're not going to convince each other. And there are arguments on both sides (I really believe the Iraqi people are going to be better off in the long run). If Iraq was totally clear cut you wouldn't have such divisive debates on it.

-Later

[-Carnifex-]

Did you people read the whole thing? Or am I the only one? "they found no evidence" is the key phrase...

However they also reported:

The report says Osama bin Laden "explored possible cooperation with Iraq during his time in Sudan, despite his opposition to (Saddam) Hussein's secular regime. Bin Laden had in fact at one time sponsored anti-Saddam Islamists in Iraqi Kurdistan.

"The Sudanese, to protect their own ties with Iraq, reportedly persuaded bin Laden to cease this support and arranged for contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda."

A senior Iraqi intelligence officer reportedly made three visits to Sudan, finally meeting bin Laden in 1994.

Bin Laden is said to have requested space to establish training camps, as well as assistance in procuring weapons, but Iraq apparently never responded.

"There have been reports that contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda also occurred after bin Laden had returned to Afghanistan, but they do not appear to have resulted in a collaborative relationship," the report said.

Sounds like this pannel found plenty of attempts at colaboration and efforts to WANT to collaborate...but "found no evidence to substantiate" anything ever came to fruition at least tied to 911 attack (the narrow focus of thier inquiry). Thats what it says anyway... At leasts this commission did not find any direct link to 911 planning. So...

Then Saddam didn't collaberate, though he was given an offer?

[cphilip]

Then Saddam didn't collaberate, though he was given an offer?

this commission cannot confirm does not mean didn't... and they are talking about 911 planning mostly. Not nessicarily any link specific to that. Thats thier mission is 911 only. Which is what the current administration is claiming is that there is a link between Al Quieda and Iraq...but not specificaly 911 itself.

and he sent his lacky to meet so he was indeed exploring it....

[-Carnifex-]

So, we went to war on the premise of: There's no evidence for or against, so let's get 'em?

[cphilip]

Uh they just confirmed a link. And where do you suppose they got the evidence to conclude that?

How extensive they did not confirm... But in the past everyone has denied there was a link between Saddam and Al Quieda (and support for Muslim extreemists) and the reasoning was they hated each other so they just could not have... but this commission found a valid and supportable reason why they would (Sudan) and might have cooperated on something. At least meet to do so. We have always known Saddam paid Palestinian suicide bombers families. Thats still a fact as well. He openly bragged about it and filmed himself awarding them the money.

[-Carnifex-]

I see it as we know they met, that means nothing. I've never seen evidence that he was aiding terrorism (can you give me a link about him paying the suicide bombers?). I'm only bringing all of this up because I'm having issues giving arguments in support of the war.

[cphilip]

It means more than we were allowed to see before. Before people said they would NEVER cooperate. It appears they attempted to at least.

Links? Sure

There are tons of them by the way. And he liked to film the ceremonies too

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/03/25/1017004766310.html?oneclick=true

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,58871,00.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2846365.stm

Just a few varied scources.... many more of them out there and all about the same.

Added on edit: Note I did not just give you a hawkish link or a liberal link. I gave you some of both.

[-Carnifex-]

Thanks Phil.

[cphilip]

No problem Carni

You want more then just google with "Saddam Palestinian" or something along that lines.

[Konigballer]

man, why cant the whole middle east just dissapear and be replaced by another Canada. Well, heres to wishfull thinking :cheers:


I hope, berfore we tackle any other middle eastern "terrorist state", we take down our lying Saudi
"friends" quick. Everytime I see those rich Sauidi's talking pure crap on TV I wanna' drop our guys on top of them, guns a blazin', and set up a giant Exon.

[Jack_Dubious]

I hope, berfore we tackle any other middle eastern "terrorist state", we take down our lying Saudi "friends" quick. Everytime I see those rich Sauidi's talking pure crap on TV I wanna' drop our guys on top of them, guns a blazin', and set up a giant Exon.

Amen to that!

JDub

[cphilip]

Amen to that!

JDub


they on my list too.... ;)

[FactsOfLife]

man, why cant the whole middle east just dissapear and be replaced by another Canada. Well, heres to wishfull thinking :cheers:


I hope, berfore we tackle any other middle eastern "terrorist state", we take down our lying Saudi
"friends" quick. Everytime I see those rich Sauidi's talking pure crap on TV I wanna' drop our guys on top of them, guns a blazin', and set up a giant Exon.


Most intelligent thing said in this thread yet.

[1stdeadeye]

I would not have a problem with turning the entire Middle East into the world's largest filling station! :ninja:

[1stdeadeye]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/16/911.commission/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The panel investigating the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks found that there was "no credible evidence that Iraq and al Qaeda cooperated on attacks against the United States," according to a staff report issued on Wednesday.

Nice job reading the WHOLE article! :nono:

:p

[-Carnifex-]

Nice job reading the WHOLE article! :nono:

:p


All it really says is that they met. In my eyes that's not enough to say there's a link between Al Qaeda and Saddam.

[Hasty8]

With all due respect Phil...look at what you just typed? You are saying 'well this is murky...but they did attempt to meet...etc."

Are we going to commit troops and resources on murky evidence? Are we going to start dropping bombs and 'well it might be true...might not...but oh welll....you can't really be sure on such things...."

I still believe that if we had focused on Afghanistan (had the number of troops in Afghanistan that we have in Iraq) it would have been BRILLIANT!!! Everything was clear cut. Osama had screwed with us. We said, "Give him up...or else." They said, "Well let us think about it." And we said, "Too late!"

But we're not going to convince each other. And there are arguments on both sides (I really believe the Iraqi people are going to be better off in the long run). If Iraq was totally clear cut you wouldn't have such divisive debates on it.

-Later

Aaron, whether or not Saddam was tied with AQ is incidental as Saddam was tied with numerous other terrorism around the world. AQ does not have the market cornered on terrorism.

[cphilip]

Well aron, stay with me here for a minute...

what I am trying to point out is its murky exactly and specificaly what particular terrorist act they were trying to collaborate on... or wether it was just general support they were trying to agree on. Its murky to me... and to this commission. It may not be as murky to intelligence but I have no idea.

But meeting and attempting to collaborate is aiding each other and is evidence they found a common ground. Which to this point many have tried to say could not and would not. Now if there is some specific plot out there still waiting to happen then I doubt we would be told it at this time. Or if there is specific evidence of support in camps we already have found some of that. And perhaps there is more to be found financialy. But they were attempting to get together on one thing. Killing Americans. All of them for their various reasons were attempting to strengthen their postion in doing that through cooperation. And so it is best to make sure that collaboration never occurs.

[aaron_mag]

Well for those of you who would like to turn the middle east into a big filling station....

A family friend is in the oil refinery business. And he claims that the oil reserves in the middle east will only last another 60 or so years. There is another oil reserve that they think is even bigger than the one in the middle east. That one is off the northeast coast of the U.S.

So oil power will shift away from the middle east...some of us won't be around to witness it...but we should see the start of it!

[Rooster]

The middle-east is only useful becuase its cheap oil. At any rate, every media outlet in the country is of course trying to sensationalize this story. The fact is that there are Iraq-Al Quida ties, regardless of whether or not the helped with 9-11. At the very least they provided moral support and a refuge for former Al Quida members. Coupled with Sadam and his blatant refusal to adhear to UN resolutions and the terms of his own surrender, we had all the reason we ever needed to remove the threat.

[-Carnifex-]

What would these ties be Rooster, along with the proof of said ties?

Also, proof that he was harboring members / former members of Al Qaida?

[Hasty8]

What would these ties be Rooster, along with the proof of said ties?

Also, proof that he was harboring members / former members of Al Qaida?

Carnifex -
1 - Saddam openly supprted Palestine terrorists. Saddam Hussein's Iraq provided material assistance to Palestinian terrorist groups, including the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command, HAMAS, and the Palestine Islamic Jihad, according to a State Department report. This included paying the families of Palestinian suicide bombers, according to testimonials from Palestinians and cancelled checks. Also, according to State Department reports, terrorist groups the Iranian Mujahedin-e-Khalq and the Abu Nidal organization were protected by the Iraqi regime protected by the Iraqi regime.

2. A senior al Qaida terrorist, now detained, who had been responsible for al Qaida training camps in Afghanistan, reports that al Qaida was intent on obtaining WMD assistance from Iraq. According to a credible, high-level al Qaida source, Usama Bin Laden and deceased al Qaida leader Muhammad Atif did not believe that al Qaida labs in Afghanistan were capable of manufacturing chemical and biological weapons, so they turned to Iraq for assistance. Iraq agreed to provide chemical and biological weapons training for two al Qaida associates starting in December 2000.

3. Saddam Hussein would not uphold his international commitments, and now that he is no longer in power, the world is safe from this tyrant. The old Iraqi regime defied the international community and seventeen UN resolutions for twelve years and gave every indication that it would never disarm and never comply with the just demands of the world.

Strike 1, 2, 3...yer out!

[-Carnifex-]

1.) First, I didn't ask about Terrorists in general. Learn to read.

2.) Article / Documents, arguing with heresay doesn't do me any good.

[aaron_mag]

1.) First, I didn't ask about Terrorists in general. Learn to read.

2.) Article / Documents, arguing with heresay doesn't do me any good.

All you'll get is hearsay...since if there was any truth to these things it would be all over the news. As Rooster pointed out, the media loves nothing better than something to sensationalize. They make lots of money that way.

But since they don't have any WMD to sensationalize, or Al Queda ties to sensationalize, they are going to sensationalize this...

Rooster loves to cry 'sensationalizing media' but he doesn't like to carry the logic all the way through. That they would sensationalize any credible link between Al Queda and Saddam...but it ain't there.... ;)

[1stdeadeye]

Well for those of you who would like to turn the middle east into a big filling station....

A family friend is in the oil refinery business. And he claims that the oil reserves in the middle east will only last another 60 or so years. There is another oil reserve that they think is even bigger than the one in the middle east. That one is off the northeast coast of the U.S.

So oil power will shift away from the middle east...some of us won't be around to witness it...but we should see the start of it!

The oil power will shift, but they still have the fortunes reaped from it. :(

[Hasty8]

Doubtful.

Oil power will be going the way of the dodo soon.

Seattle is taking delivery of almost 235 hybrid-fuel buses this year. I can't remember the actual number of estimated gallons of fuel saved but it's big. I have the article back home and will post later if I remember.

San Fran is taking delivery of the new Honda FCX this year as well. This puppy runs on hydrogen and uses zero "fossil fuels".

Australia is looking into using large scale glass covered farms to battle a few differnt problem areas. The farms are all located under a single glass "dome". The "dome" is rather flat until it arcs suddenly upward in the center. In this column are fans connected to generators. The fans are moved by the warm air and generate electricity.

solar power panels are getting better and better. Smaller panels are producing more energy than their larger counterparts from just a few years ago. My house in Montana is solely off the grid and derives over 83% of it's power from solar panels.

Technology is getting better and soon we'll be finally weaned from oil. :bounce:

[Chojin Man]

thats a start hasty8, but we still have a long long time before we stop using using petrol products all together

[Ronin Baller]

As long as my car produces gut wrenching, tire smoking, 10 second quarter mile torque I'll feed it whatever ya want. :headbang: :shooting:

[Rooster]

Al-Zawakiri is a known Al-Quida member that has been operating in Iraq since almost imediately after 9-11. Senior Iraqi officials were meeting with Al-Quida in Germany. Not to mention the Sadam offered to pay the families of the hijackers and anyone else who would make such an attack.

[Southpaw]

Seattle is taking delivery of almost 235 hybrid-fuel buses this year. I can't remember the actual number of estimated gallons of fuel saved but it's big. I have the article back home and will post later if I remember.

San Fran is taking delivery of the new Honda FCX this year as well. This puppy runs on hydrogen and uses zero "fossil fuels".


This is incorrect while the Honda FCX may not use fossil fuel. The productoin of hydrogen DOES!! Hydrogen cars will just shift who uses the fossil fuel to the power plant operators! I get so mad when they take a car and say "look you can drink what comes out of the tailpipe" and in dont show the HUGE coal burning power plant belching out smoke needed to make the electricity to seperate the hydrogen from the oxygen in water then the power to compress it ect. My next pet peeve is Bio Diesel and Ethnol!!! :mad:

[Bluestrike_2]

True.

Yet, we will be able to use geothermal energy, solar, and nuclear to take care of the hydrogen. That, coupled with the cars, will effectively eliminate our need for fossil fuels, just not over night. It will take some time....

[taylor492]

1.) First, I didn't ask about Terrorists in general. Learn to read.

2.) Article / Documents, arguing with heresay doesn't do me any good.

Whaddya want? A copy of the check from the local bank?!

If you want articles and documents try www.google.com :D

[-Carnifex-]

Al-Zawakiri is a known Al-Quida member that has been operating in Iraq since almost imediately after 9-11. Senior Iraqi officials were meeting with Al-Quida in Germany. Not to mention the Sadam offered to pay the families of the hijackers and anyone else who would make such an attack.


Once again, where's the proof?

The man may be operating in Iraq, that doesn't mean he's supported by Saddam.

I'm not seeing where it said they met in that article. Is it possible you can show me where you saw this?

Also, where's the proof for this? I know he supports Palestinians, but I haven't heard that he vowed to support an attack on America. Can you point me to an article?

[-Carnifex-]

Whaddya want? A copy of the check from the local bank?!

If you want articles and documents try www.google.com :D

No, if he's going to make claims he should be able to back them. Not to mention, I'm sure he'd be much obliged to help a fellow American make the correct argument when it comes up.

[taylor492]

No matter how hard any of us argue the point, noone will be able to produce actual physical evidence. But the same could be said about your claims.

Now if this were court, the burden of proof would be on the prosecution,( Hasty, Rooster, me etc.) Unfortunately, theres just no way for anyone other than the govt. to be able to produce any evidence.

I am confident in the governments reasons for the war. I don't think they would spend billions of dollars and hundreds of american soldiers lives unless they had good reason to.

[cphilip]

Once again, where's the proof?

The man may be operating in Iraq, that doesn't mean he's supported by Saddam.

I'm not seeing where it said they met in that article. Is it possible you can show me where you saw this?

Also, where's the proof for this? I know he supports Palestinians, but I haven't heard that he vowed to support an attack on America. Can you point me to an article?

Actually the Commission admits all that happened. Thier only point is that it has nothing to do with 911

But niether they nor the current administration is claiming they cooperated on 911 attacks. Never have.

But no one is claiming they did not meet multiple times over other terrorist sponsorships nor is anyone denying that Saddam sponsored terrrorism... except perhaps you? In fact the commission confirmed the meetings. And where do you think they got that information? Apparently good enough information they were shown to convince them that it did occur....

[-Carnifex-]

I'm aware of what the commission said Phil (in this article), and I agree with you.

I'm not claiming they didn't meet, but that article mentions nothing about Germany (unless I missed it).

I definitely believe they met and that Saddam supports terrorism, but Rooster posts points that I haven't seen any verification of and I would appreciate it if he could show me some so that I am able to make the same points when I am brought into an argument like this.

[cphilip]

I'm aware of what the commission said Phil, and I agree with you.

I'm not claiming they didn't meet, but that article mentions nothing about Germany (unless I missed it).

I definitely believe they met and that Saddam supports terrorism, but Rooster posts points that I haven't seen any verification of and I would appreciate it if he could show me some so that I am able to make the same points when I am brought into an argument like this.

Oh I gottcha now...

I do not know where the Germany thing came in but I remember some scuttlebut about it a good while back. Just do not recall the details. I will see if I can find something on it...

[Hasty8]

1.) First, I didn't ask about Terrorists in general. Learn to read.

2.) Article / Documents, arguing with heresay doesn't do me any good.

I learned how to read in grade school. My post was to show that Saddam was in league with terrorists but if it's specifics you want"

In late February 2004, Christopher Carney made an astonishing discovery. Carney, a political science professor from Pennsylvania on leave to work at the Pentagon, was poring over a list of officers in Saddam Hussein's much-feared security force, the Fedayeen Saddam. One name stood out: Lieutenant Colonel Ahmed Hikmat Shakir. The name was not spelled exactly as Carney had seen it before, but such discrepancies are common. Having studied the relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda for 18 months, he immediately recognized the potential significance of his find. According to a report
last week in the Wall Street Journal, Shakir appears on three different lists of Fedayeen officers.

An Iraqi of that name, Carney knew, had been present at an al Qaeda summit in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, on January 5-8, 2000. U.S. intelligence officials believe this was a chief planning meeting for the September 11 attacks. Shakir had been nominally employed as a "greeter" by Malaysian Airlines, a job he told associates he had gotten through a contact at the Iraqi embassy. More curious, Shakir's Iraqi embassy contact controlled his schedule, telling him when to show up for work and when to take a day off.

A greeter typically meets VIPs upon arrival and accompanies them through the sometimes onerous procedures of foreign travel. Shakir was instructed to work on January 5, 2000, and on that day, he escorted one Khalid al Mihdhar from his plane to a waiting car. Rather than bid his guest farewell at that point, as a greeter typically would have, Shakir climbed into the car with al Mihdhar and accompanied him to the Kuala Lumpur condominium of Yazid Sufaat, the American-born al Qaeda terrorist who hosted the planning meeting.

The meeting lasted for three days. Khalid al Mihdhar departed Kuala Lumpur for Bangkok and eventually Los Angeles. Twenty months later, he was aboard American Airlines Flight 77 when it plunged into the Pentagon at 9:38 A.M. on September 11. So were Nawaf al Hazmi and his younger brother, Salem, both of whom were also present at the Kuala Lumpur meeting.

How's that for specifics? Until the Senators and Congress men who are obvisouly better at intelligence gathering than our military and governmental employees who are hired to do just that can discount this curious tidbit I will continue to believe that Saddam and AQ were daisy-chain partners.

Link (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/152lndzv.asp)

As the article goes on to explain, this may not clearly demonstrate that Saddam was personally involved but it does show that there was a definate connection between Iraq and AQ.

[cphilip]

while looking I found some interesting reads...


Germany involvement in Lethal Gas production:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/cw/az120103.html


Money laundering assistance given to Saddam including Marc Rich (tax evader pardoned by Clinton)

http://www.insightmag.com/news/2004/05/28/World/Following.Saddam.Husseins.Secret.MoneyLaundering.T rail-684337.shtml


I think the real scandal that is going to evolve is the money trail and the countries that helped Saddam during sanctions.

[-Carnifex-]

Good find. I'm wondering why the 9/11 commission didn't think this was proof enough? If an Iraqi official went to a meeting for planning the WTC bombing.

[Hasty8]

This is incorrect while the Honda FCX may not use fossil fuel. The productoin of hydrogen DOES!! Hydrogen cars will just shift who uses the fossil fuel to the power plant operators! I get so mad when they take a car and say "look you can drink what comes out of the tailpipe" and in dont show the HUGE coal burning power plant belching out smoke needed to make the electricity to seperate the hydrogen from the oxygen in water then the power to compress it ect. My next pet peeve is Bio Diesel and Ethnol!!! :mad:


Dude, what are you talking about? This car requires no electrical input. While curerntly hydrogen is produced as a by product of petroleum refinement it can be done a number of other ways.

Electrolysis also separates the elements of water—H and oxygen (O)—by charging water with an electrical current. Adding an electrolyte such as salt improves the conductivity of the water and increases the efficiency of the process. The charge breaks the chemical bond between the hydrogen and oxygen and splits apart the atomic components, creating charged particles called ions. The ions form at two poles: the anode, which is positively charged, and the cathode, which is negatively charged. Hydrogen gathers at the cathode and the anode attracts oxygen. A voltage of 1.24 Volts is necessary to separate hydrogen from oxygen in pure water at 77° Fahrenheit (F) and 14.7 pounds per square inch pressure. This voltage requirement increases or decreases with changes in temperature and pressure.

The smallest amount of electricity necessary to electrolyze one mole of water is 65.3 Watt-hours (at 77° F; 25 degrees C). Producing one cubit foot of hydrogen requires 0.14 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of electricity (or 4.8 kWh per cubic meter).

Renewable energy sources can produce electricity for electrolysis. For example, Humboldt State University's Schatz Energy Research Center designed and built a stand-alone solar hydrogen system. The system uses a 9.2 kilowatt (KW) photovoltaic (PV) array to provide power to compressors that aerate fish tanks. The power not used to run the compressors runs a 7.2 kilowatt bipolar alkaline electrolyzer. The electrolyzer can produce 53 standard cubic feet of hydrogen per hour (25 liters per minute). The unit has been operating without supervision since 1993. When there is not enough power from the PV array, the hydrogen provides fuel for a 1.5 kilowatt proton exchange membrane fuel cell to provide power for the compressors.

Producing Hydrogen (http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumerinfo/refbriefs/a109.html)

Hydrogen refills were arranged at Patrick's alma mater, our nearby University of California Irvine. We drove a total of 310 miles during our week with the FCX. In our two refuelings, we put in 2.97 and 3.54 kg of hydrogen, these stints giving gasoline-equivalents of 41.8 and 29.9 mpg, respectively.

Road & Track tests the FCX (http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=6&article_id=1336&page_number=1)

While I have no clue how to convert cubic feet into kilograms I'm willing to bet that the Humbolt's device should produce enough hydrogen on a daily basis.

While I am sure that there are probably fairly large initial costs to either buying or building one of the Humbolt devices the benefits that will be reaped go far beyond simple money issues.

It does a brain good! (www.google.com)

[Hasty8]

Good find. I'm wondering why the 9/11 commission didn't think this was proof enough? If an Iraqi official went to a meeting for planning the WTC bombing.


I'm not sure whose post you are referring to. If you are referring to mine about Ahmed Hikmat Shakir here is my answer.

There are quite a few reasons, the most obvious being that the commission was never fully detailed on this.

The problem I have with non-intell people questioning the intell community is this.

The intell world is composed of ghosts, shadows and smoke. Nothing is overtly substantial in this area. Yes, there were communication failures at multiple levels that lead up to the attacks of September 11, 2001 but this was unavoidable.

Also, since the end of the Cold War the CIA received less and less fudning and this greatly effected the assets they had in the field. Back in the 80's they had handfulls of money to toss at people in order to flip them.

Also, after America's positional change on ME issue in the late 80's early 90's where we flipped on a lot of our assets in the region and most of them died, it's no surprise they don't want to get into bed with us. Tis of course in no way means that I sympathetic to the freask who attacked us. Let me make that abundantly clear.

My point is that the members of the commission want concrete answers when there are just none to give.

If you were referring to another post sorry for wasting your time.

[Bluestrike_2]

Hehe...

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/06/18/saddam.terror/index.html


(CNN) -- Russian President Vladimir Putin said his country warned the United States several times that Saddam Hussein's regime was planning terror attacks on the United States and its overseas interests.

==============================

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/06/18/russia.warning/index.html


MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) -- Russian intelligence services warned Washington several times that Saddam Hussein's regime planned terrorist attacks against the United States, President Vladimir Putin has said.


The warnings were provided after September 11, 2001 and before the start of the Iraqi war, Putin said Friday.

There you go, just contributing to the discussion.

CNN posted these at about noon, and then at 1:20 TODAY.

[Southpaw]

New Alternative-Fuel SUV Will Deplete World's Hydrogen By 2070
DETROIT—Ford announced a Sept. 3 rollout date for its new Ford Foresight, a hydrogen-powered SUV that, if it reaches sales projections, will deplete the earth's supply of hydrogen by 2070. "America has asked for a car that does not use fossil fuels, and we've delivered," Ford CEO William Ford Jr. said Monday. "With an engine nearly 20 times as powerful as that of our gas-burning SUV, the 11-ton Foresight will be unaffected by the price-gouging whims of OPEC, as it uses water electrolysis to gather fuel from the oceans and the fresh mountain air." Ford acknowledged that, when hydrogen supplies are depleted, the usefulness of the Foresight, as well as life on earth as we know it, will end.

From the ONION (http://onion.com)

Near the Bottom of the page :D

[Hasty8]

I assume that this is a joke?

he Onion is a comedy site and hydrogen is the most abundant material in all of existance.

[Kellen_p8nt]

Yea Hasty that is satire.

However Hydrogen is the most abundant element, both in combined forms a on its own.

However, On earth that majority is much less.So Hydrogen is not nearly as abundant as other elements(at east in a singular form).

However. We DO NOT need fossil fuels to seperate hydrogen from oxygen. There are other options