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Bluestrike_2
06-24-2004, 10:06 PM
Bluestrike's Guide to Digital Photography

NOTE: This is a work in progress. I am just too darn lazy to sit down for a few hours and type all this. So, I will chip away at it over 2-3 days. :D If anyone wants anything added, or clarified, please PM me or post a reply. Thank you! Update lists are available at the bottom Right now I am chipping away at this in a weird Greek kind of way. (Not a racist statement. Look at Athens for the games. They look like they're in trouble, but they're not. It's just their way of organizing.) it will become clerer, and in the proper order..

Another note: This is not a guide on how to take a good photograph. Buy a book for that! :D No, really, you should just get out there and read that book!! Oh yeah, experiment.

Every week or so the same question pops up. I want to buy a digital camera. So, what should I buy. This is on ALL forums. AO, too. A lot of these posts, on other forums, are by people too lazy to research the cameras. Now, here on AO, these posters already have done research, and come up with a choice with which they want some advice on. Now, this advice can sometimes be overwhelming, and sometimes not very easy to understand. So, let's get started on this long and intensive guide on digital photography, one which will no doubt help you make an informed decision. Or so I hope.

Contents

Later.....

Time to learn about that camera

Film Speeds (Digital cameras have equivalents)(Digital cameras have settings to change this)

The speed of film, or it's digital equivalent, indicates it's sensitivity to light. The more sensitive(faster) it is, the higher it's ISO number. [ ISO = International Standards Organization] A basic rundown:

Slow Film (ISO 25-100)

ideal for any image where light levels are likely to be high. For example, brightly illuminated subjects, portraiture, and landscapes that are rather sunny. For film, it is extremely low-grain.

Middle - Speed Film (ISO 200 & 400)

This speed of film is suitable for the types of images mentioned in the slow category, but also dusk and dawnt shots, where light levels are lower, and action shots.

Fast Film (ISO 800-3200)

I cannot think of any compact cameras, both film and digital, that have setting for this type of film, or DE[digital equivalent]. Some may have 800, but I only see 1600 in D-SLR's. Low-light photography and for high speed action shots where you MUST use a very short shutter speed even when set to maximum aperture. This is an extremely sensitive film. To quote John Hedgecoe


This film is so sensitive that it is possible to take good pictures by, for example, the light of a bonfire at night.

Another Hedgecoe quote:


Bear in mind, however, that fast lenses(those with large max. apertures)allow more light to reach the film, and so can record a successful exposure on less sensitive film than can slow lenses.

Here is a scan of a section in John Hedgecoe's New Book of Photography. I feel that it can SHOW the differences, instead of just having to take my word on it.
http://homepage.mac.com/stoecklein1/.Pictures/Photo%20Album%20Pictures/2004-06-24%2019.34.25%20-0700/Image-B2B96970C64F11D8.jpg

Lenses

Ok, I promise this is my last scan.

http://homepage.mac.com/stoecklein1/.Pictures/Photo%20Album%20Pictures/2004-06-24%2019.34.25%20-0700/Image-B2B94F48C64F11D8.jpg

In order, the sections are.

FISHEYE (Ultra-Wide Angle)
WIDE-ANGLE
STANDARD
LONG-FOCUS (telephoto)
EXTREME LONG-FOCUS (telephoto)

Let it be known that it is not easy to assign lenses to the different groups because they are dictated by each format. 35mm, medium format, large format, digital. Digital is even more broad with "lens magnification factor(or whatever mumbo jumbo you wish to call it. Us nature photographer's just call it god's gift :D ).

Some digital lenses have 1.5x LMF, while others have 1.8x. Some even have 2x LMF. So with a 1.5x LMF a 80mm lens performs life a 120mm equivalent in 35mm. Although that raises another question. Why do we compare digital to 35mm like this. They are, after all, different formats. Ok, enough babbling.

What all of this truly applies to are the film SLR's and D-SLR's.

Lens Magnification Factor aka Crop Factor aka Field of View Multiplier etc. etc.

A 50mm lens on a digital SLR camera will still be a 50mm lens. The size of the objects will be identical to the size they would be if it were a normal full-frame 35mm film camera.

The difference is in the Field-of-View (FOV) ONLY. The FOV with a 50mm lens on a digital SLR will be as if it were shot through an 80mm lens.

So the objects within the image will be the correct size, but the amount of objects in the frame will be as if someone cropped the edges of the photo away. The factor is typically 1.6 for all but professional end digital SLR's and is known as the "crop factor".

It occurs because the digital sensor in the SLR is about x0.6 the size of a 35mm frame. Thus a 35mm frame size is effectively divided by 1.6 (the crop factor) to get the digital SLR frame size.

Many mistakenly believe that using their lenses on a D-SLR will effectively increase the focal length of that lens and "bring objects closer" than normal with that lens. It just isn't so. Only the FOV changes.

Let it be known that Canon and Kodak have introducted camera's with full frame sensors. This then corrects the FOV change. Everything thus behaves the same as on a 35mm camera.

Below is an example of sensor sizes. The circle is what the lens sees. Then 35mm, then a Nikon D100,

INSERT SENSOR TAG HERE

Below is an example of what was above, but with an image in it.

INSeRT ANIMAL TAGE HERE

Below is a photo of a bird. Suppose I have an AF-S 80-200mm lens, and I put that lens on a 35mm Nikon. I take a shot at 200mm. What you see below is the 35mm size. Now, I take the same lens (keeping at the 200mm setting), put it on my D100, and take a shot of the exact same position. The D100 will only capture the image highlighted below in the photo--it will not cover the same area of the 35mm camera, at the same 200mm focal length. Now here is where the magnification factor comes in, and this is also where many photographers are benefiting from the magnification factor.

The D100's sensor creates an effect that looks as if I magnified the photo. Technically, I haven't really magnified the photo, because it's just a "crop" of part of the 35mm area. However it appears as if I have, so for purposes of this , I am going to say there is a magnification. If it looks like the photo was magnified, then it is.

Now, we start to make some heads explode....

Field of View Equivalency Factor

Since Olympus(4/3 system) and Nikon(DX lenses) have introduced lenses which are matched to their camera sensor sizes, we now have another complication when discussing FOV Crops. Since the lenses are matched to the sensor, there is no FOV Crop. A FOV crop only occurs when a lens is larger than the sensor it was designed for. Now that we have Nikon DX lenses and Olympus 4/3 lenses, there is no crop, but there is a Field Of View Equivalency Factor (FOVEF). You're probably scratching your head asking, Soooo, if there's no physical crop and no crop factor, then how do you come up with the 2x factor? Good question indeed, and let's take a look at degrees and Angles of View. Sorry for the exploding heads at this point :D

All 300mm lenses are not necessarily the same. The physical focal length is still the same (this is why a 300mm is still branded a 300mm on all lenses, no matter what brand or size), but the Angle Of View, can change. And it does change when you see the following examples.

Not all 300m lenses are the same. The physical length is the same(that's why manufacturers brand these lenses as 300mm on ALL formats.), but the angle of view changes. See below for an example:

http://www.digitaldingus.com/articles/fov/oly300mmfocallength.jpg
Olympus 4/3 300mm w/ AOV @ 4 degrees

http://www.digitaldingus.com/articles/fov/35mm300mmfocallength.jpg
35mm 300mm AOV @ 8 degrees

See the difference? What you see is FOVEF. The physical length does not change, Angle Of View does. You can get AOV specs from manufacturer websites.

Now, Olympus touts their 300mm as the equivalent of 600m 35mm format. So, how?

Below: Nikon 600mm

http://www.digitaldingus.com/articles/fov/35mm600mmfocallength.jpg
Why, the Nikon 600mm has an AOV of 4 degrees. Hmm, what else does? Oh yeah, the Olympus! See? Hey! it looks the SAME as that Olympus 4/3 300mm lens does!


Digital Compact's Fixed Lenses

With Digital compacts, you have your fixed lenses. Usually the manufacturer touts "optical and/or "digital zoom." Always go with OPTICAL ZOOM! Digital zoom is an unnecessary evil. Why? Because digital is basically cropping the imaging, and blowing it up. If the camera has both, great!!! You can use both together, just don't go too far with digital, if any.

Quality
Now for the most important point. Quality.

Low quality glass()lenses) means low quality images. Stick with established companies. No, not Sony.....(I will explain if wanted)

Nikon, Canon, Konica Minolta, Mamiya, Rollei, Hasselblad, Horsemen, etc. etc.

Woa, getting into med. format and large format country there...

Fuji is also a good camera brand. Their D-SLR's use Nikon F-mount, so I am not sure about their compacts...




Ok, just wanted to get this project started. Hopefully it will be a group project. Tomorrow I will update, and make any corrections, along with better the organization. Suggestions, comments, corrects, requests? Post 'em below!


=================================================
Coming Soon:

-Black and White: Various procedures.
-The Compact or the new, affordable D-SLR's?
-Megapixels: The Myth, and The Truth
-......


=================================================
Guide Updates:

- fixed a typo, little organization work

- Field of View Crop facotr ; Heads can now explode

- First upload. None yet.

=================================================
Resource List(Reccomended Reading, etc)
John Hedgecoe's Photography Basics
John Hedgecoe's New Book of Photography
David Stoecklein's The Spur(any other of his books) to see a very cool set of photographs, and a cool digital workflow.

websites:
http://www.digitaldingus.com <- Very informative articles
http://www.shutterbug.com
http://www.outdoorphotographer.com
http://www.nyip.com <- New York Institue of Photography
http://www.dpreview.com < - Looks like a dungeon, but actually very informative reviews etc.
http://www.nanpa.org <- North American Nature Photographer's Association Download a copy of their newsletter. Pretty informative.

Magazines:

Outdoor Photographer
American Photo
Shutterbug
Digital Photo Pro
Many, many others....

Just going to add this little logo...

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2208/mac.gif
:D

Halliday
06-24-2004, 11:08 PM
Just an example :)

Not my usual kind of photo..........
a flower my Wife grew. Cleaned up in Paint Shop Pro. Shot with a Canon PowerShot A40.

http://jayloo.com/files/pics/4000/Picture%20006b_small9638_rs.jpg

It looks WAY better large.

Muzikman
06-25-2004, 12:23 AM
Very good start...and glad someone is taking the time to do this...there is no way I would wanna write a book on it:)

Ya might wanna explain why LMF (AKA Crop Factor) happens. If I feel energetic, maybe I'll explain it:)

Halliday
06-25-2004, 05:02 AM
Back when I sold cameras, I'd have local Community College students come in with their film. Usually the same assignment too, "Shoot at night downtown (Des Moines woohoo :cheers: )

Anyway, they'd shoot color film with exposure times into the minutes. The color pix would have odd colors in them, and it was not our machine. Then they would get mad at me!

So there I'd be in a mall trying to explain Resciprocity Failure to guys in Beginning Photo 101.... then they would say, "Do you ever teach Photo classes?" I should have started doing that as a side job, I would have made more $$ teaching than being Manager of that store :cuss:

Bluestrike_2
06-25-2004, 10:31 AM
I will have to dig up some of my photographs of a local BP station at night with long exposures. I have the settings written down somewhere too.

I will edit this page with them. My god I love .Mac!!!! Pretty soon I will post a nice photo gallery on it as I am still trying to design a good website. Any suggestions on that take? Not to get off topic, but I keep making it more "extreme" instead of "subtle" and "formal."

Keep the stuff coming.

Although I think that if I put a title of "Naked Women; Come inside" I'd have gotten more page views :p

-Blue

taylor492
06-25-2004, 02:47 PM
Thanks thats all very informative. My problem is loading the pics on to my computer. When i do that they come out messed up.

Example:http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=19702&highlight=sig+test+thread

Check out the last post. Thats how all my pics turn out when i load them on my computer. They are perfectly fine when i take them, but when i load them thats how they turn out. :mad:

HELP!!!!

Muzikman
06-25-2004, 02:54 PM
Hmm..that doesn't look good...

What brand / model camera is it?

What is your process to downloading them to the PC?

taylor492
06-25-2004, 03:32 PM
Hmm..that doesn't look good...

What brand / model camera is it?

What is your process to downloading them to the PC?


Its a brand new Canon A75

I bought a card reader.The guy said would be easier to load them that way

I just stick my memory card in the reader and it pulls em up like that. But the pic is fine when i view it on the cameras lcd screen. I wish i knew how to do a screenshot, id show u what it looks like. When i click on the f drive it pulls them up with little thumbnail pics then u can click on them to enlarge them. The thumbnails r fine just when i click on them is when they get all screwy like that

Muzikman
06-25-2004, 03:35 PM
When you double click on them, what program launches them?

taylor492
06-25-2004, 03:43 PM
When you double click on them, what program launches them?


Dunno, i just open up the f drive and they pop up. its a dell pc

edit:im at work right now but i look at it when i get home

Bluestrike_2
06-25-2004, 04:19 PM
Eh, It was Sunoco.

Ok, I have 14(Got to find the first one, for a total of 15) shots here. Uploaded here:

http://homepage.mac.com/stoecklein1/PhotoAlbum2.html

I would post them here except for the fact that, well, it's large. So, here it goes. Let it be known that I will try to keep them up for a while, but if in the months to come, it's gone, just PM or email me. I would be glad to email a contact sheet to anyone who requests one.

These were shot with two friend of mine. It was cold. It was dark. And we got plenty of weird looks as the three of us were sitting on the side of the road taking these photographs. In hindsight, there are a few changes

Settings in order:

160 NC Film (Forgot to write down make, model)

fStop/Time in seconds

F22 30

F22 60

f22 90

f22 15

f16 15

f16 30

f16 30

f16 45

f16 60

f11 15

f11 30

f11 45

f11 60

f8 15

f8 30

Then, it got too cold....

Once again I must thank .Mac for making my life easier.

I think that I will keep the main post about cameras, while make other posts in regards to other areas, such as Photoshop, File browsers etc. etc.

I haven't looked at PQ, so if they are pixelated, please post.

bornl33t
06-25-2004, 04:28 PM
This thread was good until I saw the "I love mac"

I'll just ignor that and enjoy the thread. I have a friend that's been halping me out a little. I don't wanna get too crazy I already bought my canon a80 and have no intension of buying something bigger and better. He just bought his first digital canon this week with a price tag of 1100$ .His thing is weather. To see some of his stuff go to www.positiveflash.com (http://www.positiveflash.com)

Thanks for the info Blue.

Bluestrike_2
06-25-2004, 04:50 PM
This thread was good until I saw the "I love mac"

I'll just ignor that and enjoy the thread. I have a friend that's been halping me out a little. I don't wanna get too crazy I already bought my canon a80 and have no intension of buying something bigger and better. He just bought his first digital canon this week with a price tag of 1100$ .His thing is weather. To see some of his stuff go to www.positiveflash.com (http://www.positiveflash.com)

Thanks for the info Blue.


.Mac

.Mac

It's internet web space. Why I love it is that my Mac integrates seamlessly. if I use iPhoto(mainly I use Extensis though) I can upload my photos directly. I can also make edits. It's seamless. It's pretty cool.

Another thing to mention, is that "I love Mac" is improper. It would be "I love Macs" or "I love the Mac." :D

bornl33t
06-25-2004, 04:54 PM
I will have to dig up some of my photographs of a local BP station at night with long exposures. I have the settings written down somewhere too.

I will edit this page with them. My god I love .Mac!!!! Pretty soon I will post a nice photo gallery on it as I am still trying to design a good website. Any suggestions on that take? Not to get off topic, but I keep making it more "extreme" instead of "subtle" and "formal."

Keep the stuff coming.

Although I think that if I put a title of "Naked Women; Come inside" I'd have gotten more page views :p

-Blue


adgada

Muzikman
06-25-2004, 06:21 PM
Blue: Those photos look VERY grainy. Is that the scan or the images themselves? I have a few long exposures that I have done, most are film, but a few are with my 10D, I'll try and dig them up.

Bluestrike_2
06-25-2004, 06:27 PM
That was the scan.

I screwed up and hit the wrong button. They're pretty screwed up. Will fix.

Heat:

did you see a "." before .MAC as in http://www.mac.com

It's not the computer. It's the .MAC service. not the computer. Ok?

bornl33t
06-25-2004, 07:34 PM
typo

Bluestrike_2
06-26-2004, 09:08 AM
huh?

.Mac isn't a typo.

Anyhow, on another note, your friend is crazy!!! To get close enough to a tornado to take a good photo is insane. I'd be going the other way.....

taylor492
06-26-2004, 10:31 AM
I was looking at those pics again last night. Ive come to the conclusion that my problem has to have something to do with my pc and not the memory card or the card reader. So I'll be calling Dell in the next couple of days. :mad:

trevorjk
06-26-2004, 10:52 AM
hey im actually looking at getting webspace to host pictures... nothign wrong with Jayloo.com but i have lots of other pictures id like to host any suggestions on this? i am html illiterate so the easier it is to use the better :)

but how is this for a start? im useing my moms sony camara 2.1 megapixels is all i know about it the only thing that sucks is when i zoom in at any rate what so ever the pictures become very fuzzy so i can only take pictures not zoomed... and i am looking at getting my own. for everyday use while still be able to get speed shots or very fast exposure shots with crystal clear zooming... any great camara with lots of great features in the 300-400$ range?

(do have fullsize pic)

vf-xx
06-26-2004, 11:27 AM
I'm interested in hearing about your rant on sony cameras. Especially because I was consiering buying one.

I really want a D-SLR to replace my mid 70's Cannon AT1. Or a flash. anybody have an old cannon flash?

Muzikman
06-26-2004, 12:23 PM
pbase.com is a great place host pictures. It's not 100% if you want a large amount of space, but it's a good quality service for a cheap price.

As for Sony cams, I'll start his rant, because I think we have the same view on them. I have owned a lot of digital camera over the years and the thing I learned, stick with brands that have a history of many camera. Sony makes great TVs, good stereo components, but when it comes to their Digital Cameras and Video cams, they fall behind in my mind. If you are looking for a simple Point and Shoot digital cam, Sony might not be too bad, but there are still better options in my opinion. And as you get into their more expensive camera's, you really should look else where for the money. When you walk into Best Buy the guy behind the counter will push Sony stuff quite often. It's easy to do because they have a popular name and the first thing the salesman will point out is the "Carl Zeiss" lens. For years Zeiss has been making some great optics, but I seriously think that when Sony came to them and asked to use their glass, Zeiss chased the money and did not hold up to their standards (this is my theory). What I can tell you is the optics on even the most expensive and top of the line Sony cam is average at best. And if you didn't know, Optics are more important than anything when it comes to cameras. Good glass will give you a good sharp image regardless of how many Mega Pixels it is. (in paintball terms, MP = BPS, Optics = Consistancy).

Bluestrike_2
06-26-2004, 02:20 PM
Canon just came out with a Digital Rebel D-SLR. Nikon also has the D70. Both broke the $1000 barrier.

What's really nice is that these are both full-feautured D-SLR's. Granted, they are no D2H or Eos 1-D, but are very good. Fuji also has their Finepix S2 and S3 models, which are Nikon F mount lenses.

http://www.nikon.com
http://www.canon.com
http://www.fujifilm.com ???

http://www.adorama.com
http://www.bhphoto.com
http://www.calumetphoto.com

Now, Sony....

Ah heck, Muzik stole the words right from my mouth....
For the money, a Nikon, Fuji, or Canon would be a wiser choice.

For the record, I own a Fuji medium format camera. Superb craftsmanship.


Trevor,

<a href="http://www.imageshack.us/"><img src="img/imageshack.png" border="0" alt="ImageShack(tm) Frog Logo" /></a><

Touch the Frog :D

Edit: They changed the extension to .png

trevorjk
06-26-2004, 05:06 PM
http://www.cameraunlimited.com/webstores/www/stores_app/Browse_Item_Details.asp?Store_id=101&page_id=23&Item_ID=2516
or
http://www.cameraunlimited.com/webstores/www/stores_app/Browse_Item_Details.asp?Store_id=101&page_id=23&Item_ID=2928
or
http://www.cameraunlimited.com/webstores/www/stores_app/Browse_Item_Details.asp?Store_id=101&page_id=23&Item_ID=2848
or
http://www.shopharmony.com/product.asp?file=NEXTAG&i=MINDZ2

hmm can some one explain the major difference between these besides the megapixels? as i plan on spending around 500 ish on a nice camara those are just 3 that i found that to me seamed similar... if this is a camara that far exceeds these in the 500 range please let me know but as of know im leaning towards the konika minolta z2

taylor492
06-27-2004, 01:13 PM
http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=72841&stc=1


ok this is what it turns out like. Dunno if you guys saw this before :ninja: