Bullet-Shaped Paintballs

[Jaremy Rykker]

Based on this data we believe round paintballs are too light and have lousy aerodynamics to expect any more accuracy than what we are currently getting. When the military came to us and wanted a more accurate non lethal system we made a bullet shaped, spin stabilized paintball that far outperformed any equal weight round projectile. Accuracy by volume has been, and will remain, the best way to score eliminations.

This is out of Tom Kaye's Tech Tips #3 regarding spinning paintballs. I looked at this, and am wondering how it performed, as if you are going into the world of scenario play, you might want to pick up a patent on this design. Sure, you might have to start out developing a pump with a ten round clip over the top of the marker that would have to be handloaded, but perhaps it would be the first time that a rifled barrel would actually have been used, and that old dream about "paintball snipers" could actually come true. It would be huge for you in scenario paintball, and could get you pretty far if it worked.

Could I at least get some information on how these bullet shaped paintballs worked, and whether it would be feasible to develop a system for them that could be used in scenario paintball and big games and such?

[PsychoBaller]

Some airsoft games are played with pretty much bullet like projectiles with tiny splooges of paint at the tip...

Suckers zing like a mofo though...

-baller

[WenULiVeUdiE]

and what if your field isnt BYOP? I doubt the paint would be cheap and a common find. But you may be on to something...

[Jaremy Rykker]

Yes, I know that some airsoft games are played that way, and I have a friend at school who tried that. Problem with airsoft is that it is much smaller and less popular than paintball, everything feels minature (in my opinion), and the feel just isn't as good. Scenario paintball is big, and if a working bullet shaped paintball were brought to this market, even if it were a 10-15 round clip setup for a specific AGD-made pump, you would see them sell. People still play with pumps and 10 round clips in scenario, and you would see them used as a sniper gun, just as pumps currently are. You really would revolutionize that area, and you know all that concern about trying to break into that market? You wouldn't just break in? You'd smash in the door and set off the fireworks in the process. You really would go far if a bullet-shaped paintball could be designed (even if only for a pump). Note that the tip of it would need to be soft, but the break would still be similiar considering the front would be pushed back in while the outside would whip creating our favorite ring welts.

Another alternative setup that could do well is to setup a paintball shotgun. I've heard of people setting up spare barrels loaded with a setup of toilet paper and the 6mm paintball BBs, and using them as a single-use paintball shotgun barrel with moderate success (although imperfect and poorly designed which has hurt their effectiveness as you basically have to change barrels to shoot once. Once again, some design along these lines could be nice for scenario paintball as shotguns are quite effective against ye old bum rush.

As a conclusion though, the most ingenius thing that you could do though would be to develop these bullet shaped paintballs and set up a design that could work with them. That old claim that the "paintball sniper" wasn't realistic in paintball would go to rot if this could work. Of course, I really would need to see some information on the effectiveness of the design. By my understanding of physics, it could increase range as well as accuracy, but I don't know very much regarding physics as my knowledge is very... very basic.

EDIT: And wenuliveudie... if this revolutionized paintball the way it could if it works, you will see this start to be picked up at fields. Sure, it may be a little expensive, and a 100 round case for $10 might be average, but it would be a sniper's paintball, and considering that its main market would be pumps at big games and scenarios, you aren't shooting that much paint.

[space_weazel_45]

look at the ammo for the fn303 it has more bullet shaped paintballs with fins.

[Muzikman]

As stated, above, FN303 rounds are shaped like a bullet, but instead of the barrel being rifled, the projectile it's self has fins. One of the things that makes these rounds work so well in the FN is the weight. They are about 8grams, compared to a paintball at about 3grams.

[GT]

They are about 8grams, compared to a paintball at about 3grams.


jebus!,
I bet that makes bunkering fun

[AGDlover]

crapy pic but this is what it is
http://www.jayloo.com/files/pics/3000/AO-IL%20Disk%20Photo%209mm%20paintball3047.jpg

[Jaremy Rykker]

Right. But, why haven't these sort of projectiles actually been developed and optimized for paintball. The FN303 is honestly a short-range crowd control device, and although not lethal is still very painful, and well beyond the range of what would be considered reasonable for a paintball. An ideal paintball bullet would be a little heavier than normal, but it wouldn't be designed to hurt. The design is good for law enforcement, but far too dangerous for paintball. However, the concept is good, and if somebody in paintball were to develop it, you could possible make a sniper weapon. Note their comments on effective range, with paintballs having an effective range of about 10 meters which is fairly reasonable. On the other hand, these FN303 rounds (although heavier) had about five times the effective range, and although a variety of factors come into this, the fin design could account for a large part of this increase in effective range.

Tom Kaye himself said that bullet-shaped paintballs when spinned increased accuracy. I feel that if this increase is significant, a paintball marker could be designed to shoot these, even if only a pump, and AGD would have created the first true paintball sniper rifle.

[judster]

I looked at this, and am wondering how it performed, as if you are going into the world of scenario play, you might want to pick up a patent on this design. Sure, you might have to start out developing a pump with a ten round clip over the top of the marker that would have to be handloaded, but perhaps it would be the first time that a rifled barrel would actually have been used, and that old dream about "paintball snipers" could actually come true. It would be huge for you in scenario paintball, and could get you pretty far if it worked.
most of the major scenario producers(MXS,Viper, Blackcat, MMP, Wayne) are all event paint only, so as much as this would be a cool concept they would not work at a scenario game. however i remember a loooonnnngggg time ago(im sure tyger would remember ;) ) they made little fins that you could attach to a paintball. you would have to muzzle load each paintball, but i remember them being pretty cool.

[bubbleman441]

I don't know what you guys are talking about those simunition rounds. My dad uses them in his training and no, they don't have fins and they're not heavier than a paintball. There rounds are propelled by gun powder just like a real bullet. My dad paintballs and he said that paintballs hurt more and travel a greater distance.

[Jaremy Rykker]

We're referring to the rounds used in the FN303 Launcher. Take a look up on it. As compared to the average weight of a paintball at 3.1-3.2 grams, the FN303 rounds weigh 8.5 grams and have a small fin design that you can note on the back. In the link, look at the pictures of the rounds, and you will note that the lower half has a small fin design on it.

FN303 Information (http://www.pol-tec.de/fn303.htm)

This link should provide you with some information about the usefulness and accuracy of the FN303 round, and how they are much more painful than a paintball. Your did may use a practice munition, but he is not using an FN303 if it is how he described it according to the statistics I've found online.

[rx2]

Guidelines have been set that limit the weight of a paintball for sporting purposes, so as to limit risks to players, and limit insurance costs. Also, imparting more of a parabolic shape to a paintball results in a shell that is more rigid, and less prone to breaking. In fact, I can't remember who it was, but there were some oval paintballs released in the early to mid ninetees. They were a bit harder, and hurt more than round paint. Of course, you could change the shell such that it has weak points designed to break. In any case, any of these changes would result in a much higher price. This is OK for police and military, as they are using them in special instances, such as crowd control, and they don't typically need high volumes, but I don't think that the average person would want the greatly higher prices, and more rigidity.

Also, as far as I have ever heard, simunitions actually are much more painful than paintballs, and require the use of much protection. But, they are not referring to simunitions anyways, but special paint designed for training and crown control that is not fired from standard firearms, and does not use s brass casing. These ARE heavier, and DO have fins.

[Jaremy Rykker]

As I said, a bullet-shaped round would need to be designed with a weak point to break at (most likely a weakened round tip). Even if they sold them at the price of $10-$15 ofr a case of 100 and it was used on a pump, you would see them sold because they would be the first fairly accurate paintball gun. Certainly it would require a good deal of refinement to make feasible, but the idea is there, and I really think that AGD who is now going into the scenario market could run with this.

[Muzikman]

Umm...they would be expensive to make, a lot more than $10-$15 for 100.

[rx2]

Certainly it would be a good idea if fiscally feasible. I would pay that much for them, easily, as I somtimes pay 2 dollars and up for handgun rounds. The problem is, spherical paintballs are dirt cheap as they are extremely easy to make, and the machines to do so are already in place, and have been so for years. In order to develop these ballistic paintballs, you would need a decent sized production facility with lots of proprietary equipment. That takes a lot of money for R&D, and a lot more to produce the machines themselves. Granted, they wouldn't need to start from scratch, per se, but I suspect that early on, it would cost MUCH more than 10 or 15 dollars. Hell, I remember when 100 rounds or spherical paint cost nearly that much. And, like I said, they are much easier to produce. Furthermore, if you used proprietary designs, you (the buyer) would have to deal with the fact that there is no competition around to drive down prices, unless the company decided to part with their intellectual property and rights, which would be another gamble. In all, it would take a huge demand for anyone to even attempt this. I just don't think a company could pull this off, right now, and still charge what people are willing to pay. I would like to see something like this, personally, but I just cannot forsee such a thing any time soon. Too much cost and risk.

[GoatBoy]

Damn man, so many naysayers in here. You know, they probably said the same things about paintball before they figured everything out.

I like the idea. We're all so used to more or less a level playing field (barring guns that are... uhm, out of spec and... well, playing fields that literally aren't level) that this would really change things up. Pumps pretty much are a rarity in play because there isn't much advantage to using them; if they could either be more accurate, or as I suggested a long time ago, allow them to chrono at slightly higher speeds, they'd have a place again.

The machinery that makes our paintballs didn't come... from paintball. They came from the pharmaceutical industry. Trying to kill the idea based on what you think our technology, either today or in the near future, can bear seems shortsighted. It's hard to believe that all of you who benefit from numerous advances in technology, not just paintball but in so many facets of your lives, can't be bothered to give the idea a chance.

They already make gelatin capsules. They're just not the right size yet. In fact I was just looking online at the process... gee, seems shockingly familiar. I wonder if gelatin caplet manufacturers had as much difficulty discussing the topic when they started their process.

"OMGLOLZ THAT WILL BE SO EXPENSIVE! NOBODY WILL PAY 4 DAT WEN THEY CAN JUST EAT THE MEDICIN THEMSELFS!!"


Another thing I was thinking of though... I think everyone's still thinking .68 caliber. I would say stick with the same paintball weight, but reduce the bore size for the rounds. Make the tip weakened, and you have a significantly different beast.

Yes yes, I know, lots of things have to change; bolts, barrels, chambers... I'd seriously consider it though.


I'm not particularly a fan of scenario ball, but I have to say, if anyone would be willing to accept an idea like this, I think they would be the ones.

[Deathshadow9k]

yeah swat team training uses FN303's but they call em sim shots, they work really well but the only problem is they usually shoot em at abotu 500 fps.....and yes they wear lots of body armor

[Jaremy Rykker]

Damn man, so many naysayers in here. You know, they probably said the same things about paintball before they figured everything out.

I like the idea. We're all so used to more or less a level playing field (barring guns that are... uhm, out of spec and... well, playing fields that literally aren't level) that this would really change things up. Pumps pretty much are a rarity in play because there isn't much advantage to using them; if they could either be more accurate, or as I suggested a long time ago, allow them to chrono at slightly higher speeds, they'd have a place again.

The machinery that makes our paintballs didn't come... from paintball. They came from the pharmaceutical industry. Trying to kill the idea based on what you think our technology, either today or in the near future, can bear seems shortsighted. It's hard to believe that all of you who benefit from numerous advances in technology, not just paintball but in so many facets of your lives, can't be bothered to give the idea a chance.

They already make gelatin capsules. They're just not the right size yet. In fact I was just looking online at the process... gee, seems shockingly familiar. I wonder if gelatin caplet manufacturers had as much difficulty discussing the topic when they started their process.

"OMGLOLZ THAT WILL BE SO EXPENSIVE! NOBODY WILL PAY 4 DAT WEN THEY CAN JUST EAT THE MEDICIN THEMSELFS!!"


Another thing I was thinking of though... I think everyone's still thinking .68 caliber. I would say stick with the same paintball weight, but reduce the bore size for the rounds. Make the tip weakened, and you have a significantly different beast.

Yes yes, I know, lots of things have to change; bolts, barrels, chambers... I'd seriously consider it though.


I'm not particularly a fan of scenario ball, but I have to say, if anyone would be willing to accept an idea like this, I think they would be the ones.

I realized that the round would probably have to be substantially redesigned. But, note that not only were the gelatin capsules in medicine a leap of faith, but they aren't round either.

Certainly, a marker would need to be designed to work with these bullet shaped rounds. But, I doubt that is beyond the limits of a major company that is trying to get into scenario paintball. The barrel bore and such would almost certainly have to be smaller, and if you are looking for a loader, either a clip shaped gravity loader (which is limited in size unless you make it wide at top), or create a force-feed system that looks similiar to a SAW's magazine. The whole idea of a marker would be redesigned for these rounds, but I feel it would revolutionize paintball and make Smart Parts cry because they hadn't patented something somebody would use.
:cheers:

[bubbleman441]

Guidelines have been set that limit the weight of a paintball for sporting purposes, so as to limit risks to players, and limit insurance costs. Also, imparting more of a parabolic shape to a paintball results in a shell that is more rigid, and less prone to breaking. In fact, I can't remember who it was, but there were some oval paintballs released in the early to mid ninetees. They were a bit harder, and hurt more than round paint. Of course, you could change the shell such that it has weak points designed to break. In any case, any of these changes would result in a much higher price. This is OK for police and military, as they are using them in special instances, such as crowd control, and they don't typically need high volumes, but I don't think that the average person would want the greatly higher prices, and more rigidity.

Also, as far as I have ever heard, simunitions actually are much more painful than paintballs, and require the use of much protection. But, they are not referring to simunitions anyways, but special paint designed for training and crown control that is not fired from standard firearms, and does not use s brass casing. These ARE heavier, and DO have fins.

My dad has been shot by both paintballs and simunition and he said paintballs hurt more because they're heavier. Also, the picture that Sniper king posted is the exact stuff my dad uses for training (he is a firearms instructor.) As you can see in the pic, there is a BRASS casing filled with gun powder which propells the plastic shell filled with paint which is fired by their standard side-arms with a special simunition barrel.

[Jaremy Rykker]

I apologize for disagreeing with you, but those FN303 rounds are made by AGD, and weigh 8.5 grams as compared to 3.2 grams for paintballs. The entire point of their increased weight and shot velocity is to induce trauma in whatever they hit so as to stop them. For one, they are shot at a much higher velocity, and secondly they are a lot heavier. What I am saying is that your dad is not using the FN303 or its rounds.

Your injury from an FN303 round will be much worse than that of a paintball from point-blank, and for a number of reasons (insurance and pain), the FN303 rounds as currently made will never be used for paintball. However, the design is effective, and if AGD were to work on it, they could perhaps make a pump gun with either a banana clip above the gun as a gravity feed (10-20 rounds) or if they were to make a semi-automatic, to try to use a box similiar to that used on the SAW.

Understand that the rounds would have to be significantly retooled and redesigned as would the marker that shoots them.

:shooting:

[xXHavokXx]

ok here is the problems that I see:

1. You have to do propritary guns due to the fact the shape of the ball wont fit down a std. neck
2. You've seen how the wind effects the heavier spherical paintball, this will be worse
3. Without a regand expansion chamber, the inconstant expansion of Co2 will cause them to tumble
4. The last thing we need is paintball snipers, I remember when I got into this all I heard was: Im a sniper, One shot one kill, Look at my 300 dollar scope, Im a sniper. :shooting:
5. Complete re-design of the machinery, packaging, shells , and the like is going to make it cost too much to be fun. :dance:

[bubbleman441]

I apologize for disagreeing with you, but those FN303 rounds are made by AGD, and weigh 8.5 grams as compared to 3.2 grams for paintballs. The entire point of their increased weight and shot velocity is to induce trauma in whatever they hit so as to stop them. For one, they are shot at a much higher velocity, and secondly they are a lot heavier. What I am saying is that your dad is not using the FN303 or its rounds.

Your injury from an FN303 round will be much worse than that of a paintball from point-blank, and for a number of reasons (insurance and pain), the FN303 rounds as currently made will never be used for paintball. However, the design is effective, and if AGD were to work on it, they could perhaps make a pump gun with either a banana clip above the gun as a gravity feed (10-20 rounds) or if they were to make a semi-automatic, to try to use a box similiar to that used on the SAW.

Understand that the rounds would have to be significantly retooled and redesigned as would the marker that shoots them.

:shooting:

I agree with all of that, just not with the picture that was posted. The round in the picture is certainly not the FN303 round you speak of becuase you people are saying it has fins and has no brass casing...now how can you look at that picture and tell me it has not brass casing? I have some of those rounds right here at home if you guy want to see some pictures, I can get them.

Oh ya, let me correct Sniper kings mistaken picture with the real FN303 round...

http://www.spa-simrad.com/orange.jpg

[Jaremy Rykker]

That's correct. Sniper King's round is not FN303... and as such it hasn't been mentioned. I believe that round is a simunition. However, your Dad is not using the FN303 round. I can't figure out how in the world to post a picture, so I haven't bothered but I've put up a lot of links.

That round Sniperking posted, does appear in the picture to have a brass casing.


ok here is the problems that I see:

1. You have to do propritary guns due to the fact the shape of the ball wont fit down a std. neck
2. You've seen how the wind effects the heavier spherical paintball, this will be worse
3. Without a regand expansion chamber, the inconstant expansion of Co2 will cause them to tumble
4. The last thing we need is paintball snipers, I remember when I got into this all I heard was: Im a sniper, One shot one kill, Look at my 300 dollar scope, Im a sniper.
5. Complete re-design of the machinery, packaging, shells , and the like is going to make it cost too much to be fun.

1)As I said. A new style of marker would be developed for these rounds. No big deal, and the early model could even be a somewhat expensive pump design and it would still sell.

2)The weight will be the same. However, the design will be different as it will be shaped to be more aerodynamic and the spin imparted on it will balance out its imperfections. The round shape of a paintball makes it so that spin cannot make it more accurate like a bullet. However, spin placed on a bullet-shaped paintball will improve its accuracy.

3)I'd say like most new AGD markers that we make this one an air-only.

4)There currently is no such thing as a real paintball sniper, but a setup like this could make them a reality and actually make them truly effective in that role. Sure, they wouldn't have that same real-world effectiveness, but at least they could do something.

5)We don't need to re-design all of the machinery. Make a few new machines specifically designed for the new design and start producing a basic model. All that would be needed really would be a re-design of the paintball, a re-design of the barrel, and a re-design of the breech. Everything else could remain somewhat the same.

[ogre55]

ok here is the problems that I see:
5. Complete re-design of the machinery, packaging, shells , and the like is going to make it cost too much to be fun. :dance:

We already pay a upwards of $1,500 for our markers and sometimes as much as 110 per case of paint. How much more can these things cost?

Ogre

[Jaremy Rykker]

I assure you for one that the design on this shouldn't be that expensive. You will have a redesigned barrel and breech system that is designed for the longer, narrow projectile, and it should have a semi-automatic or pump action.

I doubt the price would be excessive, although it would be higher than normal. I'm just thinking that this could work. Paint would be on the expensive end, but you wouldn't be shooting off 50 shots in hope of a hit. Just a few would work, so paint prices would equal out.

[GoatBoy]

ok here is the problems that I see:

1. You have to do propritary guns due to the fact the shape of the ball wont fit down a std. neck
2. You've seen how the wind effects the heavier spherical paintball, this will be worse
3. Without a regand expansion chamber, the inconstant expansion of Co2 will cause them to tumble
4. The last thing we need is paintball snipers, I remember when I got into this all I heard was: Im a sniper, One shot one kill, Look at my 300 dollar scope, Im a sniper. :shooting:
5. Complete re-design of the machinery, packaging, shells , and the like is going to make it cost too much to be fun. :dance:


1. Wow that's news to me! No, not really.
2. Are you sure it would be worse? How much worse would it be than a normal paintball being tossed around in the wind? You seem to be convinced that it's worse; I'd like to hear some specifics. Don't skimp on the details! At the very least, what happens to your argument should the product be made to be the same weight as a paintball, as I suggested?
3. Well, now you're just babbling. Even if you had a point, we've had regulators and HPA for ages now; since when did trying a new paint style send us tumbling back into the stone ages?
4. *Sigh* You certainly are quite the authority on how other people should have fun.
5. See #2 and #4, and a little bit of #3. And #1.



I'm with Rykker on this one, because I'm pretty sure I'd have a LOT of fun with something like this.

[Jaremy Rykker]

A link to a thread in the Deep Blue forum where I hope to soon get some more solid, technical facts provided regarding the performance of 3.0-3.2 gram bullet-shaped paintball projectiles.

Deep Blue Thread (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1501919#post1501919)

I might in the coming week or two try to draw out a 3d model of a working pump marker that could fire these sort of rounds.

[the larch]

Originally Posted by xXHavokXx
ok here is the problems that I see:

1. You have to do propritary guns due to the fact the shape of the ball wont fit down a std. neck
2. You've seen how the wind effects the heavier spherical paintball, this will be worse
3. Without a regand expansion chamber, the inconstant expansion of Co2 will cause them to tumble
4. The last thing we need is paintball snipers, I remember when I got into this all I heard was: Im a sniper, One shot one kill, Look at my 300 dollar scope, Im a sniper.
5. Complete re-design of the machinery, packaging, shells , and the like is going to make it cost too much to be fun.

1. Build the marker, make the paintball. Scenario players would EAT IT UP.
2. The wind would have LESS effect on a bullet shaped paintball as long as the spin was high enough. (refer to gyroscopic effect of spinning objects etc...etc.) Though, I would question if our fps limit would allow enough spin to be imparted to make an important difference.
3. CO2 expansion behind the paintball (the only expansion that could effect the ball) is uniform. If it would cause a bullet shaped paintball to tumble, it would cause a round paintball to spin causing it to go wildly off course.
4. Scared of snipers huh?
5. Unless your the guy who does the work, and makes a TON of cash doing it allowing you to drive a new ferrari to your paintball field where you choose which one of the xmags your going to shoot for the day.

THERE IS A THREAD discussing how the new Shockteck DM$ is over $1700. Why in the world would you think people wouldnt pay for something like this then.

[rx2]

I wasn't being a nay-sayer at all. I would personally give them a shot, even at, say, 25 cents per round. However, I am trying to be realisitic. Many people will talk a lot, but when it comes down to acting, they don't. I have seen many times where people say that they will buy something for x amount of money, or that they would like to see something designed in such a way, only to have them complain later, and the product goes bust. There are a lot of fickle people out there, and a lot of people who never really intent to follow through on their word. As for the price, I can think of a couple of things that could jack up the price signifcantly.

For one, you would have to have excellent consistency of size and shape, meeting or exceeding what we already see. If you want to spin this projectile enough that it would impart an effect, you would need to be certain that each round makes maximum contact with the rifling on the barrel, and this is provided we could ever get enough spin into the round at safe velocity, and with current fill viscosity. Any that are too small, or too out of round would suffer. If you make them fit snugly, then you run into the problem of possibly having too many barrel breaks. Even the most expensive paint I have used has not been perfect (which is part of the reason Tom can tout his perfect-circle paintballs). In order to keep the consistency, you may also need to take added precautions against temp and humidity. Of course, you would also need a tray to hold them, as you probably wouldn't want to just throw them in a bag.

Another problem would be in the design of the shell itself. As has been suggested, the parabolic shape would most likely impart more rigidity. If you create a shell that has break points built in to combat this, then you introduce the need for new tools and/or techniques that are not currently employed. Furthermore, you would have to be sure that this didn't weaken the structure in other directions, such that it might lead to more barrel breaks from a snug fit, or the like.

Aa for the size, I don't think you would want them much smaller. Lowering the size, and weight would mean poorer trajectory in the wind, as well as decreased effective range. Furthermore, while the bullet shape would have more volume, you would still need to maintian enough volume that you would create visible hits that aren't so easily wiped. Finally, from my experience, smaller paint (.40 cal) really doesn't break to well to begin with.

Again, I am not saying that this shouldn't be tried, or that I wouldn't use them. But, I do think that it is something that won't be as easy or cost effective as some or you might like to think. Also, we musn't forget the fickle nature of consumers.

[Muzikman]

First off, bubbleman441 where did you get the 303 rounds? and which are they? I really need some, and was hoping to have some by the end of July, but I can not find a place that will let me buy them.

The reason the 303 round is so much better is because of the weight. you take that weight away and it will fly worse than a normal paintball...let me see if I can find the thread...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=133126&highlight=FN303

Read Manikes post and then Tom's.

[WGPforlife]

i think it's a bad idea. i mean for all these people who just bought new guns, wouldnt they be pissed to find out that the marker system has changed and their DM4s or bladed cockers are now obsolete?

also, wouldnt it hurt a whole lot more than a ball? it'd be like a bullet.

[GoatBoy]

For one, you would have to have excellent consistency of size and shape, meeting or exceeding what we already see. If you want to spin this projectile enough that it would impart an effect, you would need to be certain that each round makes maximum contact with the rifling on the barrel, and this is provided we could ever get enough spin into the round at safe velocity, and with current fill viscosity. Any that are too small, or too out of round would suffer. If you make them fit snugly, then you run into the problem of possibly having too many barrel breaks. Even the most expensive paint I have used has not been perfect (which is part of the reason Tom can tout his perfect-circle paintballs). In order to keep the consistency, you may also need to take added precautions against temp and humidity. Of course, you would also need a tray to hold them, as you probably wouldn't want to just throw them in a bag.

I don't know, is it harder to make a perfectly round sphere, or a consistent, straight cylinder? Personally, I think the cylindrical object is easier. With a cylindrical object there may be methods available to bring them closer to spec that aren't feasible with spheres. Have you pondered this?

I wouldn't worry about storage; we have members on the forum hand-sorting paint into stock tubes and storing it all away with dessicants in hermetically sealed containers. We can handle it.



Another problem would be in the design of the shell itself. As has been suggested, the parabolic shape would most likely impart more rigidity. If you create a shell that has break points built in to combat this, then you introduce the need for new tools and/or techniques that are not currently employed. Furthermore, you would have to be sure that this didn't weaken the structure in other directions, such that it might lead to more barrel breaks from a snug fit, or the like.

You also have to wonder how strong a shell you have to have in the first place for a system like this. I wonder if you could go with a thinner shell. I'm still thinking this one over.

Also, I was thinking about a break points today... I wonder how complicated those would need to be. If it could be a process like, say, scoring or making a very small puncture on the front of the round just before firing... that might be enough to drastically improve break rates, perhaps beyond those of regular paintballs.



Aa for the size, I don't think you would want them much smaller. Lowering the size, and weight would mean poorer trajectory in the wind, as well as decreased effective range. Furthermore, while the bullet shape would have more volume, you would still need to maintian enough volume that you would create visible hits that aren't so easily wiped. Finally, from my experience, smaller paint (.40 cal) really doesn't break to well to begin with.

Well, I was thinking more along the lines of .50 cal or larger. And, for the third time, keep the weight the same, if for no other reason, just to keep keep the amount of paint a round carries roughly the same for marking purposes. Just imagine squishing a normal paintball into a more cylindrical shape. If you keep the weight the same, but reduce the diameter of the round, while giving it a cylindrical shape, what comparative effects would THAT have on accuracy/range?



Again, I am not saying that this shouldn't be tried, or that I wouldn't use them. But, I do think that it is something that won't be as easy or cost effective as some or you might like to think. Also, we musn't forget the fickle nature of consumers.


You're right; I see this all the time. But do you get the impression that the crowd that wants a product like this might be different from the crowd that wants the latest wiz-bang chromed/splashed low pressure venturi gun?



Anyways, I was just poking around the web last night, and here's some stuff that caught my eye.

http://www.rjengineering.com/process.htm
http://www.cardinal.com/pts/content/aboutus/whoweare/broch/CH-PTS-OT-Hardshell-Sellsheets.pdf



WGPforlife: I'm sure there will be no shortage of people who will prefer to stay with their normal paintball equipment.

Would you care to explain yourself a little better on why you think bullet shaped paintballs would hurt more?

[xXHavokXx]

Would you care to explain yourself a little better on why you think bullet shaped paintballs would hurt more?


Here's my guess: Upon impact the ball's spherical shape collapses into a semi-torroidal shape which either retains its structure an bounces off and returns to normal shape or collapses completely and breaks. The energy is at the point of contact is spread over .68 inches due to initial collapse.

With the pointed bullets the widest part of the ball is .68 inches or whatever that becomes, but the initial impact is going to be with a much narrower point which transfers the energy over a smaller cross section which = more pain.

[Cheeseball24]

also, wouldnt it hurt a whole lot more than a ball? it'd be like a bullet.

so?

[Dayspring]

It's a noble idea... However, quite futile.

You're talking about making proprietary technology to ONE marker. Make a special barrel, breech, paint & loading system. The thing that has allowed paintball to flourish is the fact that there are standards and you can take your hopper from your Spyder to your Timmy and your barrel from your cocker to your DM4.

AGD tried redefining paintball several times. The only one that REALLY took off was compressed air. The Warp feed? Yeah. You see TONS of people with those. Z-grips? Those too.

And btw- the cost of R&D is far more than you think it is. "It shouldn't cost too much to totally redesign a loading system, barrel, breech system & paintball manufacturing." Riiiight.

[tasker89]

Have any of you ever heard of "Machofire" paintballs? Many years ago a gun was "developed" which used a forcefed magazine to fire oblong (football) shaped paintballs. The gun was semi-automatic. It never went anywhere. Niether did the finned "sniper balls" which had to be muzzleloaded. JMHO but this direction was abandoned long ago....diminishing law of returns and all.

You cannot demand real accuracy out of a gel-cap. Which is why high-volume, high ROF markers dominate the game....

It is hard enough to get precision accuracy with real firearms...let alone trying to do it with lightweight balls of egg-shaped gelatin. :dance:

edit - http://www.warpig.com/paintball/articles/funkyguns.shtml

[Jaremy Rykker]

Have any of you ever heard of "Machofire" paintballs? Many years ago a gun was "developed" which used a forcefed magazine to fire oblong (football) shaped paintballs. The gun was semi-automatic. It never went anywhere. Niether did the finned "sniper balls" which had to be muzzleloaded. JMHO but this direction was abandoned long ago....diminishing law of returns and all.

You cannot demand real accuracy out of a gel-cap. Which is why high-volume, high ROF markers dominate the game....

It is hard enough to get precision accuracy with real firearms...let alone trying to do it with lightweight balls of egg-shaped gelatin. :dance:

edit - http://www.warpig.com/paintball/articles/funkyguns.shtml

I know about the Machofire paintballs, and I know that they didn't work.

However, I quote this to you from Tom Kaye himself.


Based on this data we believe round paintballs are too light and have lousy aerodynamics to expect any more accuracy than what we are currently getting. When the military came to us and wanted a more accurate non lethal system we made a bullet shaped, spin stabilized paintball that far outperformed any equal weight round projectile. Accuracy by volume has been, and will remain, the best way to score eliminations.

These bullet shaped, spin stabilized paintballs far outperformed any equal weight paintball.

This means that Tom Kaye's bullet-shaped rounds would actually outperform any 3.2 gram standard paintball, and the claim that they would be ineffective that a lot of you are claiming is bogus, because Tom Kaye himself has said that out of experience they clearly outperformed the 3.2 gram .68 caliber spherical paintball. I'm not advocating a return to football shaped paintballs, but what about a bullet shaped paintball, or something that looks like a lightened FN303 round. The main point for the weight in the 8.5 gram FN303 round is to increase trauma in the target and be more effective in neutralizing resistance.

Accuracy by volume may make you :bounce:

But accuracy by skill will make you :cheers: and :hail: and :clap: and maybe even :dance:

I'm just saying that you could even make a very rudimentary model, and it could still go far if it improves it like I believe it would. As far as pain, I do not believe it would be that significant of an increase. In a standard paintball design, the first impact in fact is at a single point, and then it spreads. Suddenly, the paintball's shape collapses, and the part that is impacting falls back into the paintball while the outside hits you. Therefore, the part causing the pain and welt in a standard paintball isn't the point of contact, but actually much further up the paintball. Why couldn't we refine it that it would be the same with these rifled rounds.

[GoatBoy]

Damn, Jaremy beat me to it.

Yes, that's why we have ring welts. The only thing is with a smaller round as I suggested, you will get a slightly smaller surface area from the toroid formed as the thing breaks (not the surface area based on the diameter of the circle, but the surface area of the toroid ring). But nobody's listening to me on that one, so I assume nobody's actually arguing this point.



In addition, let me reiterate the break point thing.

Paint seems to hurt the most when it doesn't break.

Trying to put a weak point on paintballs doesn't work so well for many reasons, perhaps the greatest reasons being you don't know what point on the paintball is going to make impact, and what point it's going to be accelerated from.

With a bullet shaped round, we get to cheat. We know which point is going to make impact. This also happens to NOT be the point from which the round is accelerated by the gun. It's the front of the round. So... weaken the front of the round.




Dayspring: This is partially true, but I also think that "standards" have really, really held us back in paintball. How long were we as paintballers under the mercy of gravity for our feed systems? This was something of an inherited standard, and propagated to the continued use of feed necks as structural support for hoppers, and people complaining about them constantly breaking as well as having a big blimp on the top of the gun. You can bring up the warp feed, but you have to remember... the warp feed was designed to accomodate the standard feed systems, from both the conventional hopper sitting on top of it to the path right into the chamber through the feed neck. By design (in trying to accomodate the standards), I think the warp was simply... stillborn.

There are a lot of inherent "standards" in paintball; things I call legacy design concepts, that probably could be changed. Feed system orientation/location is one of my bigger peeves, but there are others out there.

The z-grip had issues of its own. I think of the y-grip as the z-grip v2.0.

In addition, why does everyone think that there would be only one gun to support a bullet shaped paintball? Looking at regular equipment, we have tons of guns that shoot the same caliber paintball, yet share practically NO interchangeable parts. We're having a hard enough time just getting a common barrel threading. Where are standards when you need them? Not sharing barrel threads seems to have become the understood standard in paintball. Hell, technically speaking, you can't always just move hoppers from one gun to another; there seem to be two prevailing hopper neck sizes these days: the oversized and the normal. Why the heck do we need two hopper neck sizes for the same size paintballs?!

Hell... we can't even agree on paint size. .689 in the old days used to be large bore. What the crap is up with this .693 and up stuff? Has our LACK of a truly standard paintball size helped or hurt paintball?

Now, on the flipside, I can see the argument when I think about the AT-85 and the Tippmann A-5. Probably more so with the AT-85. I just think the AT-85 was too ahead of its time, really. Kind of like mags. But in the end, I'm not feeling so much pain when it comes to wrecking our "standards".

[xXHavokXx]

Damn, Jaremy beat me to it.

Yes, that's why we have ring welts. The only thing is with a smaller round as I suggested, you will get a slightly smaller surface area from the toroid formed as the thing breaks (not the surface area based on the diameter of the circle, but the surface area of the toroid ring). But nobody's listening to me on that one, so I assume nobody's actually arguing this point.




I think that was me. Yeah the torroidal ring area is right, I was just up too late to think about that.

[Muzikman]

These bullet shaped, spin stabilized paintballs far outperformed any equal weight paintball.

This means that Tom Kaye's bullet-shaped rounds would actually outperform any 3.2 gram standard paintball, and the claim that they would be ineffective that a lot of you are claiming is bogus, because Tom Kaye himself has said that out of experience they clearly outperformed the 3.2 gram .68 caliber spherical paintball. I'm not advocating a return to football shaped paintballs, but what about a bullet shaped paintball, or something that looks like a lightened FN303 round. The main point for the weight in the 8.5 gram FN303 round is to increase trauma in the target and be more effective in neutralizing resistance.



I again point you to this thread.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=133126&highlight=FN303

Those little white things are a bullet shaped, finned .68 cal projectile. Read what Manike has to say about how they fly. Then, scroll down and read Tom's post. Yes the white projectiles are not paintballs, but they could be if they were made out of gel caps and liquid filled.

EDIT: Fixed URL

[bubbleman441]

Sorry Muzikman, but my dad doesn't have 303 rounds but he uses the simunition rounds. Since my dad is a firearms instructor, I may be able to get you information on where to purchase this stuff...However, I'm almost 100% sure they won't sell to civilians...but you know we could work out a little deal.;)

[AGDlover]

I agree with all of that, just not with the picture that was posted. The round in the picture is certainly not the FN303 round you speak of becuase you people are saying it has fins and has no brass casing...now how can you look at that picture and tell me it has not brass casing? I have some of those rounds right here at home if you guy want to see some pictures, I can get them.

Oh ya, let me correct Sniper kings mistaken picture with the real FN303 round...

http://www.spa-simrad.com/orange.jpg


yes they do use that but my mom works for the IRS and for small arms training the one i posted is one for a small Sig Sor .9mm the one you posted i've yet to see my mom bring home