The SpyderMAG, Incl a How To

[Xenocide]

I saw a pic of something like this In a thread here, and I figured it would be fun to do. I picked up an E-frame on e-bay, took my e-mag bolt, ule body, rail and I went and ruined it by bolting on a Spyder part ;)

::Update::
Now with video!
www.hxxl.com/~mjb/XenoMag.mp4
In the video you can see the infamous mag man Hexis making my frankenstein marker sing!
The eyes are off(they work, just forgot to reset the eye delay), you can hear the lvl 10 doing it's job. This was using paint that had been sitting in my closet in unsealed bags for at least a year and a half, I think they are from last year's first biggame at paintballsam's.
::Update::

I finally got some pics ready to go, so here they are; click on the image for the full size/correct hight to width ratio

here is the whole shebang:
<a href="http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v343/xenocide_X/SpyderMag.jpg"><img src="http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v343/xenocide_X/SpyderMag.jpg" width="600" height="450"></img></a>

here is the gripframe with eyes:

<a href="http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v343/xenocide_X/gripframe.jpg"><img src="http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v343/xenocide_X/gripframe.jpg" width="600" height="450"></img></a>
The red circle is the detail of the spyder sear spring moved to the 3rd peg of the micro switch, explained later. The yellow circle is the connection for the eyes, which i routed the wires for under the t-board.

the ule mainbody with eyes:

<a href="http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v343/xenocide_X/ulemainbodyeyes.jpg"><img src="http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v343/xenocide_X/ulemainbodyeyes.jpg" width="600" height="450"></img></a>

the rail with slots for eye wires:

<a href="http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v343/xenocide_X/railmill4eyes.jpg"><img src="http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v343/xenocide_X/railmill4eyes.jpg" width="600" height="450"></img></a>

the rail and ule mainbody with eye wires and rounting:

<a href="http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v343/xenocide_X/railandmainbodyeyes.jpg"><img src="http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v343/xenocide_X/railandmainbodyeyes.jpg" width="600" height="450"></img></a>

and here are the sears, showing before and after, the modifications I did to each:

<a href="http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v343/xenocide_X/spydersear.jpg"><img src="http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v343/xenocide_X/spydersear.jpg" width="600" height="450"></img></a>
<a href="http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v343/xenocide_X/agdsear2.jpg"><img src="http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v343/xenocide_X/agdsear2.jpg" width="600" height="450"></img></a>

Here it shows how the 2 sears contact each other:

<a href="http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v343/xenocide_X/searstogether.jpg"><img src="http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v343/xenocide_X/searstogether.jpg" width="600" height="450"></img></a>






The only tools I had used were a vise, a drill and a dremel. My friend has a mill but we had trouble with our scheduals, (I work nights, so on my days off I usually still sleep during the day ) I spent a day on it, and it works great. So far no bugs, I am trying to borow Hexis's scuba gear so I can put a few thousand rounds through it and make sure everything is solid.

I am trying to get some pics of the project up, including close ups of the sear work, and meybe even a movie of the gun working. I have a t-board I am going to put in, along with break beam eyes, and a WAS switch, probably in 3 weeks, after I get back from vacation. i'll update with all that info when I get it done.

For only 60$ for the frame, this is a really cheap way to get a fast electro. I'm pretty poor so this made me happy :headbang: The t-board is 65$ or so. It isn't a devilmag, but for me it was fun.


Here is what I did to make the mod work. I did all this with the full understanding that I might have wasted the 60 bucks I spent on the frame, not to mention the sear for the AGD RT. YOU AND ONLY YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR ACTIONS. Don't do any of this, I don't recomend it. Now, for the adults who don't sue everyone for everything:

The parts beeing cut/ground/smoothed will get very hot! I have wood in my vise so that I dont damage the parts with metal on metal friction. I had to be very carefull because the pieces will get hot enough to ignite this wood, and start a fire. if the metal gets too hot, let it cool before continuing.

1. Products:

I bought a kingman e-frame on e-bay, I don't think It was a 3.0, the packaging just says kingman spyder e-frame. I also ordered a T-board from scenarion dreams with break beam eyes, which I will get into later. You of course need the ult trigger mod to get this to work.

2. Starting up:

Poke out the post holding the the sear, the post holding the trigger, and the 2 posts holding the micro switch. Put these aside, along with the trigger and the Spyder sear, and the springs for both of these. You will need all of these. Pull the switch out of the gun, forward through thetrigger area. The wires will still be there. Take the spring from the Spyder sear and wedge it onto the top post (as it sits in the gun) of the switch. it is the only one without wires atached. this will push the sear back, we will need this later.


3. Changes to e-frame:

1. I drilled out a hole in the e-frame for the frame screw which secures the AGD ule body to the rail, and subsequently to the gripframe. (about an inch forward of the trigger adjustment, I just put the rail over the top of the frame and penciled the spot for the hole)
2. I then bored out the hole on the back of the E-frame so that the stock AGD thumbscrew would fit through it.
3. I took my dremel, and for speed's sake I took 3 heavy duty cutting wheels, and put them on the dremel spindle. I then drilled 2 holes in the grip frame. From the top looking down with the back of the frame towards my stomach, the 2 holes are below the end of the Spyder Sear. I used a bit roughly the same width as the space for the sear. These holes are simply to make the boring out of that space easier for the dremel. This space is ultimately to give the AGD sear space to rock back and forth. It is just deep enough to stop right above the solenoid, and is about an inch long, it basicly takes the space for the Spyder Sear and extends it towards the back of the E frame.
4. As stated earlier; Take the spring from the Spyder sear and wedge it onto the top post (as it sits in the gun) of the switch. it is the only one without wires atached. this will push the sear back, we will need this later.

4. Changes to the Spyder Sear:

This is one of the 2 hard parts. If you take off too much metal, you will have to get another sear and start over.

With the dremel I cut the top of the Spyder sear,(the shortest arm) so that it would fit under the agd sear. I made it about half of the origional thinckness.

Next I cut the part of the sear that touches the spyder bolt in a stock spyder. You can tell which end of the l shape it is easily because it is the shorter of the 2, and it has a small depresion in the bottom that we pulled the spring out of. What you want to do is cut this hole ALMOST off. Then I took the same cuting wheel and slowly rounded the end where it will contact the AGD sear. I then polished it smooth with the polishing wheels. The less friction this part exerts, the less the Solenoid needs to work.

5. Changes to the AGD Sear.

This is the more difficult of the 2 sear modifications. If you do this wrong, you have to get a new sear and start over. This takes a little luck, and some skill to get right. make sure you have a full tank of air and test often.

The AGD sear has an arm that hands down into the grip frame and has a swinging rod atached to it. I cut the last fourth of this off, a little above the rod hole so that it would fit into the space I made in the e-frame. Thats the easy part.

Now, using the dremel I ground the lower arm of the AGD sear at an angle. At the bottom of this arm (the part I had just cut short) There is no grinding done at all! The slope made is inward towards the top of the sear. Here is a crappy idea of what I am talking about:


|||====0==||
/|
/ |
/_|

The 0 is the bearing in the agd sear.

The slope I made in the AGD Sear is there so that when the Spyder Sear is activated, and moves downward, it pushes the AGD Swing arm backwards, thus activating the On/off.

The reason you have to be so very carefull is if you make the angle incorectly, you can either make the Spyder sear simply Not have enough contact to activate it, or you can make it too thin and it will snap during use.

I assebled and tested the mag at least 5 times making sure I didn't take off to much, until I got it just right.

6. Conclusion:

Put the Spyder sear back in, and pound the post back in, flush with the frame. Put the switch, with the spring on it, back in and pund the 2 posts back in, fluch with the frame. if you want to do a switch job, now is the time. Here is a link to a good how to, if you want to stretch the the spring.
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=399023
Put the trigger back in, I did it without the trigger spring, I find the switch has enough force to return the trigger, makes it real easy to walk. Pund the post back in, flush with the frame.




7. End notes:

All in all this project took me a long time, about a full day. There are other and probably better ways to do this. I am intruiged by the idea of turning around the Solenoid, I think it would work better, but I would have to manufacture a custome AGD sear to do this, not to mention using a milling machine to mill out more channels in the e-frame. I will be putting up the pictures of the sears, and hopefully a movie of the gun firing at some point, all depending on my friends.
When I get the eyes in and working I will put up a how to for that as well. I am also getting a WAS switch, because I like the feel of those better than the stock micro switch.

Big up to all the Tinker-ers out there!

Finally got a mag, and I go and put a spyder part on it! What a punk

[SCpoloRicker]

Sounds good.

Unfortunately, this is a little hard to mentally visualise... It would be a lot easier to follow along with some pics.

Seems like a strong idea. I would love an elector sear tripping frame for mags. Careful, there are several in various stages of production.

I have heard that turning the noid around works better, but is more to difficult to install/make work/fabricate.

Good work, can't wait for pics!

Ricker

[AGDlover]

^^^^ya i really wouldn't want to trust anything that wasn't desighned for a mags use espicaly when it involves grinding some of the sear

[Carbon]

Xenocide, you can make yourself famous in AO lore with some pics! Im telling ya, done "right" this will be the new AO Hot Modfication!

[ZapTheMad]

Here ya go Xeno. I did your mod using the reverse solenoid. No modification of any mag parts are needed except removing the trigger rod. All the mods are only done to this "disposable" frame. The only catch is you need a vertical mill to get it done unless you have some incredibly amazing dexterity with a dremel.

In the first pic you can see that the frame has been totally chopped. The top was milled flat to fit the mag rail. This also allows the sear to drop into the frame deep enough to contact the solenoid plunger. The front is also milled off and VA's fit without any modification. The frame is just a simple "bolt on" conversion.

http://www.iodclan.net/zap/emag/emag01.jpg

In the second pic you can see that the sear slot has been milled out farther back to fit the Mag sear. In stock form there is no way for the sear move because there is not enough room. There are 2 set screws to hold the solenoid in place. I also milled a slot in the back for the rail bushing rather than drill a hole. This allowed me to "adjust" where the frame sits before setting it in place with the front frame screw.

http://www.iodclan.net/zap/emag/emag02.jpg

In these pics you can see how the solenoid is mounted. I had to mill quite a bit out to bring the solenoid far enough forward to hit the sear correctly. I was having some problems with the solenoid moving around so I made a spacer to keep it from moving and glued it in place. It's a plastic frame and the set screws can't clamp the solenoid hard enough to keep it stationary. I think a metal frame will have enough strength to clamp the solenoid in place. The first pic shows the sear at rest and the second shows it when fired with the plunger extended. This was done on a Dragun frame and the nice thing about these frames is that the plunger is pressed in and you can make it longer by simply driving it out a bit with a hammer and punch.

http://www.iodclan.net/zap/emag/emag03.jpg

http://www.iodclan.net/zap/emag/emag04.jpg

These last pics show how the setup lookes assembled. The front screw was countersunk and adds a nice finishing touch. This was by far the hardest part of the project! I don't think I will be able to countersink into the metal when I try the conversion on my other frame.

http://www.iodclan.net/zap/emag/emag05.jpg

http://www.iodclan.net/zap/emag/emag06.jpg

Some problems I've encountered are that it only works with ULT's. The solenoid is not strong enough to overcome the stock on/off. The other problem I am having is rate of fire. I cannot exceed 13 BPS without it skipping shots. It seems that the sear is not resetting fast enough to get the higher rates of fire. I'm using a full function 20 BPS LCD frame. I think I can fix this tho. I just got an adjustable tank and I believe increasing input pressure will help reset the trigger faster. I also beleive my fixed pressure tank doesn't have the recharge rate it needs so it may just be as simple as that. I will probly do more testing on this conversion in the next couple weeks to see if I can get the rate of fire up to 20 BPS. when I convert to a metal frame, I may just try and mill one from scratch rather than try to mod an existing frame.

[FragTek]

Could you o this mod to a Dragun "The One" frame with the 30bps board? That would be pretty slick.

[Carbon]

Zap! that is friggin awsome! i had no ide you a mill dude! i would like to see that bad boy the next AO de we roll. This may breath new life into my classic, despite the uncertainies of a ULT with a classic.

[ZapTheMad]

I don't think it is possible on a "ONE" frame. They don't use this kind of solenoid. It can be done on a TES tho.

Sure Carbon, I won't be attending another AO day until it starts to cool down tho. Bring your Classic and we can bolt it on.

[Xenocide]

::Update::
added pictures to the origional post. click on them for the full size/correct proportions.

Trying to get a movie filmed, hosted by weeks end. the eyes are awesome, the t-board is fast as all get out. can't wait to rip up some fields!

[baka]

awesome, i was waiting for someone to do this w/ a t-board, Tell us how it is at high rates of fire and if there is any problems u've encountered and get that vid up soon. good luck.

[MicroMiniMe]

Hey Xeno, I know that has to run on the ULT, but gimme a ring if you want to try it with an adjustable (Dynaflow) tank and see if a high PSI (900+) will get back some reactivity. Or rapidfire like a madman =)
Or try it like Z-man and run it straight off Hexis' scuba. :headbang:

[Xenocide]

while tuning the ult for the mod, before I atached the gripframe, I tested out the ult with my inteliframe, and it had a hell of allot of reactivity! I couldnt get the bad boy to behave (fir without running away) no matter how many shims were in there.
The solenoid solves that problem, as it only activates for a 1 ms pulse, so no runaway :)

The problem with trying to get reactivity with this mod is that there is no more trigger rod atached to the sear, in fact if you look at the picture, the place where the triggere rod atached has actually been cut off with a dremel. There is no reactivity with this electro trigger, as far as I know the only marker that can do that is an e-mag in hybrid mode.
This mod is specifically to get a 5g trigger on my mag, for the total price of 140$. I can fire this trigger faster than I could fire my intelli, with or without the ult. The stretched micro switch trigger totally rips, and thats with a 7ms debounce.

While I was working on the gripframe I was looking at ways to add reactivity to the trigger again. Everything from triger rods that bypased the solenoid, to levers from the firing solenoid to push the trigger, to a tiny solenoid just for the trigger. The thing that I found after making the mod, was that when it came right down to it, you don't need any of that crap with an electro trigger, the micro switch is enough force to push back the trigger all by itself, just as fast as my fingers can push, the rof i'm achieving is easy proof of that.

all in all I have never fired a gun that felt this fast. Meybe it's the fact that I built it, but I don't remember beeing able to fire my friends alias or hexis's super sweet triggered e-mag anywhere near this fast. I won't know for sure until next big game probably, but I will deffinately let everyone know then.

I'm trying to get a video up soon so the techie's here can do an rof count for me. Until then it's all heresay.

[Hexis]

Didja get the video filmed? If so, pop on over, we can get it off the MiniDV onto the Mac and get it uploaded.

[THEFITZ]

Just ordered a Rebel 02 frame with LcD cant wait to try this out on my mag :)

[Lurker27]

ON skipping shots... Thats a function of 9v batteries not having the life to pump much more than 15bps on a sear tripper...A small pack of AAA NiCd batteries under your tank cover wil fix these problems and make a world of difference, and run around $8 at your local ratshack. Wit the T-board, you can then up the solenoid dwell to trip more reliably, at a small hit to battery life.

[GoatBoy]

while tuning the ult for the mod, before I atached the gripframe, I tested out the ult with my inteliframe, and it had a hell of allot of reactivity! I couldnt get the bad boy to behave (fir without running away) no matter how many shims were in there.
The solenoid solves that problem, as it only activates for a 1 ms pulse, so no runaway :)



That's funny, all you wind up using the on/off pin for then is basically a sear return spring.

You might still want to get the thing working without runaway to help with efficiency though. Have you tried it with NO shims?

The other route, if you don't care for the on/off ever closing, might be to just cut off the back end of the sear that makes contact with the on/off pin. Let the pin just hang out. Then go back to a return spring on the sear. Sort of... desert fox style, if you remember that thread from a long time ago. No need to increase input pressure.

[A Nobody]

THE FITZ, I'm pretty sure that the 02 LCD rebel frame you speak of won't work nearly as well as the Spyder frames. First of all, the back of the rebel frame is shaped such that you'll have to do a ton of cutting in order to get the field strip screw all the way in. I guess you could try to get a screw with a smaller head on it, but that's not the only problem. The sear in the rebel is farther back than it is in the spyder guns, so I don't know how well this mod would work on one, if it would even work at all. My brother has two of them, and I've examined one to see if I could get it to work on my mag. I decided to get spend some extra money and get a spyder esp frame. Just a heads up, maybe you can figure something out.

[tony3]

That's funny, all you wind up using the on/off pin for then is basically a sear return spring.

You might still want to get the thing working without runaway to help with efficiency though. Have you tried it with NO shims?

The other route, if you don't care for the on/off ever closing, might be to just cut off the back end of the sear that makes contact with the on/off pin. Let the pin just hang out. Then go back to a return spring on the sear. Sort of... desert fox style, if you remember that thread from a long time ago. No need to increase input pressure.

I hope I'm reading this right but basically what you are saying is get rid of the on off pin? The on off pin does a lot more then just move the sear. It is what sends air to the dump chamber before everyshot. Without the on off pin the gun simply won't work.

[robdamanii]

Actually, if you think about it...

The ONE frame is basically a board and solenoid....attach that to a micro-ram....and you've got a hair trigger of sorts.

[THEFITZ]

o well ill still make an attempt but thanks for the heads up tho

*i also got a great deal on the frame thats why i dident get an esp

[Xtraboy]

so did you ditch the XSF board for a T-Board yet? Or, are you going to?

Any chance we could get a video? that'd be pretty sweet...

oh yah, and props ;)

[GoatBoy]

I hope I'm reading this right but basically what you are saying is get rid of the on off pin? The on off pin does a lot more then just move the sear. It is what sends air to the dump chamber before everyshot. Without the on off pin the gun simply won't work.

Your choice of terminology might need a bit of adjusting... The pin doesn't "send air to the dump chamber"; more like it "releases air to the dump chamber". The pin is there to actually block the air passage to the dump chamber so you don't refill it before the sear is ready to catch the bolt. No pin means constant refilling of the chamber.


It's probably not the best idea, but hey, I thought I'd throw it out there.


Ergo! Vis a vis! Concordantly!

[Xenocide]

xtraboy: I have alwaysused the t-board. Some other people who did this mod tried the xsf board, and apearantly it sucks. I have the t-board, with break beam eyes, and it rocks.

[robdamanii]

Actually, the more I think about this the more I think it could be done with a humphrey's solenoid and something like a timmy board....

Now just working it all out...

[than205]

Your choice of terminology might need a bit of adjusting... The pin doesn't "send air to the dump chamber"; more like it "releases air to the dump chamber". The pin is there to actually block the air passage to the dump chamber so you don't refill it before the sear is ready to catch the bolt. No pin means constant refilling of the chamber.


It's probably not the best idea, but hey, I thought I'd throw it out there.


Ergo! Vis a vis! Concordantly!


Without the pin, I doubt the bolt would reset.

[Lurker27]

To do this with a timmy board, you'll need a big cap 15V 6800uF or bigger, in parallel with the battery, and a step up transformer in place of the solenoid, so you can dump the full 9v.

[Linkwarner]

ok out of subject, but how does the "stiffi" barrel perform?
oh and back on subject, would that work for an old E99 trigger frame, if so I will be doing that soon.

[Xenocide]

While I havent seen an e99, I think you could probably look in the grip and see weather it will work or not.

The stiffi works great. I love it.

Movie should be posted sometime tomarow, hexis shows what a pair of fast fingers can really do, and that the lvl 10 rocks joor boxors. (didn't have the eyes on)

[Xenocide]

::Update::
Now with video!
www.hxxl.com/~mjb/XenoMag.mp4
In the video you can see the infamous mag man Hexis making my frankenstein marker sing!
The eyes are off, you can hear the lvl 10 doing it's job :) This was using paint that had been sitting in my closet in unsealed bags for at least a year and a half, I think they are from last year's first biggame at paintballsam's.
::Update::

[Hexis]

Now we just gotta make it pretty.

Do I get to put at least one green part on there?

[Xenocide]

sorry, the girlfriend said no green :) plus I don't think it would go with the smoke theme to well. Maybe I'l switch to steel braided hoses and use green heat shrink on them l :headbang:

[Linkwarner]

That was awesome, It was late when I was surfing the forums last night. When I woke up this morning (or afternoon) I looked at the E99 trigger frame and it was the same one.

[Xenocide]

i think the e99 trigger is even better, since I am pretty sure it is not bps locked. With the lvl 10 you should be good to go up to 23 bps. I would suggest stretching the microswitch spring and taking out the trigger return spring. There is a link to how to stretch the micro switch spring in my how to.

[robdamanii]

All the stock Kingman boards are capped at 13 BPS.

You'd have to be getting an aftermarket board to get higher than that.

[Igotu]

How would a m4 piranha frame work, there a little less spendy then the spider frame?

[madmatt151]

All the stock Kingman boards are capped at 13 BPS.

You'd have to be getting an aftermarket board to get higher than that.


Didn't he replace the board, so it doesn't matter anyway, right? Also, are the eyes necessary? Could I build this without the eyes?

[robdamanii]

Hmm, perhaps he did replace the board.

The stock kingman boards are capped at 13 though, regardless (some are 14).

Eyes aren't necessary.. You don't have to install them. All the aftermarket board work without the eyes, so it would indeed simplify your installation.

[flyinasian016]

Xenocide, i would like to have this mod done to my gun, but unfortunatly im a bit clumsy with tools. Would it be possible for me to send you the frame and my mag and let you install it for a price? PM me and let me know if that would be possible

[Ityl]

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=114036

:D

[Igotu]

to know if it would fit, would i just have to measure it to see if its long enough.

[noahyay]

i know this is an old thread but whatever,

dont have a mill but i did the zap the mad conversion in about 2 hours

need to glue the soleniod in place still

bought an e-dragunfire frome my friend for 60 bucks and used that same frame.

i kept messing up the screw holes and there are some plastic spacers and misc. metal parts holding it on but its nice and sturdy

cant wait to try it out -first i need a ule trigger though

[daviselk]

Is that a pewter clamp feedneck?!?! I need one!

[BigEvil]

Anyone know where I can get parts for the Spyder e-frame? I would like to get an extra sear or two before I start choping away with my dremel.

Thanks

http://www.jayloo.com/files/pics/17000/Skullsig_4549.jpg (http://www.jayloo.com/files/pics/17000/Skullsig_4549.jpg)

[coofoo777]

hey bigevil, here ya go...
http://www.firstcallpaintball.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&currency=USD&products_id=497 (http://http://www.firstcallpaintball.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&currency=USD&products_id=497)

[Resurection]

Your link had extra stuff in it:
http://www.firstcallpaintball.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&currency=USD&products_id=497

[coofoo777]

idk how many people are still looking at this forum, but i was wondering if when making a spydermag if there is a difference if you have a classic valve or x-valve? Also i was wondering if it was absolutly necessary to have the ule trigger kit? And my last question is if there is anything i should know before get the rest of my needed items and start that i might not know already just from ready and researching about this mod? Thanks... :D

[Xenocide]

yes you do need the ult, the small wimpy spyder solenoid cant force the agd sear to move. as for the clasic valve, you need the ult, and it may have trouble keeping up with the rate of fire. co2 is pretty much out of the question.

[MacDave]

is it possible to do the noid flip mod with the kingman frames?

[BigEvil]

idk how many people are still looking at this forum, but i was wondering if when making a spydermag if there is a difference if you have a classic valve or x-valve? Also i was wondering if it was absolutly necessary to have the ule trigger kit? And my last question is if there is anything i should know before get the rest of my needed items and start that i might not know already just from ready and researching about this mod? Thanks... :D

My Spydermag MK-1 used a classic vavle and ULT. I had to shorten the lenght of the pin in the ult to get it to work properly. I worked ok, but now that I have changed it to an xvalve it works much better. It s noticably faster, since there is more pressure returning the on/off pin to the starting position in the xvalve than there is in the classic.

[11 Bravo]

is it possible to do the noid flip mod with the kingman frames?


Dont take my word as the final answer, but yes. I have read other threads somewhere that this was done. Maybe I saw it on Pbn.