Is this really the way things are with the pro level markers?

[hobbesTZ]

There was a kid today at the field with a DM4. Everyone that tried it was able to rip on it without any trouble at all, and by rip I mean I normally can't walk markers, but I and all the others were able to make it hum with no trouble. That's also the way it was used in the games. There was no skill involved in shooting it fast. It's really hard to explain it, but if you pulled it once it would shoot once, if you went any faster it literally sounded like a humming bird.

I think it was definately setup to bounce like mad, but I haven't anything to compare it to.

[hAppy]

ramping?
yes, you have just discovered bounce. its present in almost every electro gun alive now...

[Blazestorm]

Some guns are legal (My friend's timmy, I can't get that thing to bounce at all.)

But it's present in almost all guns, or boards can be bought/setup that way. It's pretty sad though. I think guns should just be set at a limit of 13bps and anyone shooting over that would have their gun revoked until they brought the limit down. It's just really sad that this game went from skill, accuracy and timing... to shooting and timing. My friend was talking to me about him playing X-ball and all they did were run-thru's (Not stopping at a bunker, just running around bunkering people) They even had some 10 second games. Dunno :ninja:

[digitard]

With the newer electronic markers you can get it to walk easily due to the EXTREMELY SHORT trigger pull.

I couldn't walk a marker to save my life back in the day... picked up a used Excal and was able to do 10bps constant at first, now with a Razor trigger on a viking I can hit 15 constant (which is good for my stubby fingers)

[teufelhunden]

^^ Of course, all we do now is pull triggers. Nobody bothers actually shooting at a guy, we just shoot. We all stay in the same place the whole game.. :rolleyes:

It's a progression. I guarantee you if you took Dynasty off the field and gave them Phantoms, they'd still roll teams. Probably not Infamous and the Dogs or the rest of the tip top of paintball, but they'd roll people. It's not like if you take 20 bps out of peoples hands they run around confused and kissing their *** goodbye..

[Lohman446]

My E-mag does this, when I first got it, I couldnt beleive I was actually pulling the trigger that fast. When my team captain tried it his first words were "is this legal?" "Are you sure?" and eh shoots an Imp. Its just the ease of the triggers. Now I have people tell me when I lay paint on them that the couldnt beleive it was me as I normally fire very conservatively, its just nice to have when you want it

[Blazestorm]

I highly doubt they could roll a Rookie team shooting timmies or other high-end guns. Especially teams like CDR and X-Factor (Div3)

20bps does make a difference. If they can't stop CDR from doing run-thru's because their pumps are only doing 2-3bps they're going to get rolled.

Why is there a need for people to shoot 10-11 pods a game? CDR used to play 5-man rookie tourneys up here with hopperball. And they'd still win, they won 75% of the tournies they played in. the others they got like 2nd or 3rd.

I just don't like what the game's turning into :(

[Lohman446]

Point - I know three people up here who played ten man Chicago Open on two different teams. There teams took 3rd adn 4th place and between the three of them they played 30 some games, I think it was 34. They shot TOTAL ALL THREE less than a case of paint.

[SlipknotX556]

Bounce is cool for about 5 minutes, my timmy had some mad bounce because I set it to have bounce, but after playing with it set that way, I thought it was kinda lame, I was shooting most of my paint in the first 2 min of the game, I would have to end the day early because of loss of paint. If any gun has bounce, anyone can rip on it. I now have my timmy with very little to no bounce, I love it that way.

[tony3]

With the newer electronic markers you can get it to walk easily due to the EXTREMELY SHORT trigger pull.

I couldn't walk a marker to save my life back in the day... picked up a used Excal and was able to do 10bps constant at first, now with a Razor trigger on a viking I can hit 15 constant (which is good for my stubby fingers)

Extremely short pull? I like it with some slack, like 2-4 mm, otherwise I can't get consistent strings.

[The Action Figure]

my talon has some mad bounce, and is the gun for the top pro teams. if they werent sponsored theyd all shoot talons

[jesseyo13]

What exacly is ramping? I dont understand it really, I set my a4 to ramp and I held downt the trigger and it went full auto. It slowly over about 2 seconds started to go auto though.

[845]

Ramping is when the board is programmed so that when you hit say 10 bps it goes straight up to 20 bps.

[Scott Hudnall]

The "ramping" issue is exactly what makes the DeadlyWind hAIR trigger so interesting.....

here we have a completely mech paintball gun that is able to throw some serious paint....all with single trigger pull...no bounce, no ramping, no turbo.

[Torbo]

i swear...half of the threads on ao are about/turn into people *****ing about how people shoot fast and they dont like it, and it was better in their day and how we shouldnt shoot so fast.

but anyway...i wish i could get my gun to do that....mines the opposite. My timmy bounces like a mo-fo if youre trying to get it to with one finger, but double tapping its compeletely legal....one shot one pull.

[XbeasleyX]

My B2K4 = Absolutely no bounce. None. I'm always broke and paint isn't cheap so I guess I like it that way.

[AGD]

Well this is a big point of contention. Most pro eguns today go full auto when fired above a certain rate for a certain time. This is against industry agreed and voted on ASTM standards. Going against instustry standards opens the companies up to huge lawsuits. Since we are not in a position to take on huge lawsuits we dont produce this software and hence will never be conpetitive in the tournament world.

If you look at the ASTM votes you will find it really interesting on who was behind this and you have to ask the question why are they now making products that dont meet this standard.

AGD

[teufelhunden]

Tom, AGD won't be competitive in the tourney scene not because your guns don't ramp or bounce, they already have a bounce mode, you guys just call it hybrid. Your guns won't compete because you don't market them and hell, you don't even produce them. On top of that, the future of the 'Mag [or whatever you're gonna call it] is being left up to the hAir trigger, which, aside from being mech, goes against all the 'Mag ever was... simple and reliable. While I can't say anything about the reliability of the hAir, which I assume will be excellent like most Airgun products, it adds a level of complexity to 'Mags. Adding a system very similiar to 'Cocker pneus makes the 'Mag what it never wanted to be... complex. Well, at least that's what I'm lead to believe by every 'Cocker vs 'Mag, as the 'Cocker is "omg sooooo complex and hard!" Unless you make it unadjustable, which would defeat the purpose of it, because trigger feel is a big thing among ballers. You know as well as anyone else does, that you like your trigger different than I do, and I like it different than Army does.

[Stimulation]

Whoa, dont want to start anything, but the ball is in your court Mr. Kaye...

What can you possibly say to that?

A beauty of a post teufelhunden, a beat!

[JimmyBeam]

yes it sure is, im very interested in what he hasd to say

[GotMag?]

yeah, it is like that, and not, cause on my friends pbx vike i can walk it like over 10 with no debounce most eblades have crazy bounce, but also they might not have been bouncing cause anytime im shooting a good electro i can usually get a decent rof

[The Action Figure]

you dont need bounce to get a high ror, personally I think major tournaments series should have a capp on bps. anything above 20 is simply ridiculous. Velocity can also be spiked when some guns hit 10 bps. refs can somewhat regulate that by handheld chronos. Pros suck the freakin cheaters :mad:

[tony3]

I don't think many people are hitting 20 bps....

[AGDlover]

i really do think electros are overrated mainly bacause if ya look at my gun and the deadly wind gun they preform just as good as a electro with out haveing boards to worry bout and going in the rain. u get a mech like a few months ago i was playing in near floods and never had a problem. with turnys like i siad just 1 too many things that could go wrong that you really may not be prepaired for. i would rather go mech mainly because you know ou can't cheet and saying your going semi when they can just look and see it but on the other hand electro are usealy faster witch is sometimes better. but if you look at my theroy bout me owning a mag it puts it into some perspective

[teufelhunden]

The only [possibly] tourney level mechs are really nice 'Cockers and hAir Mags, both of which have more moving parts than most electros, save Eblades.

[ilikePB]

i swear...half of the threads on ao are about/turn into people *****ing about how people shoot fast and they dont like it, and it was better in their day and how we shouldnt shoot so fast.
Annoying, isn't it. They sound like my Grandpa"Well back in my day it wasn't like that....". Well guess what it's today not yesterday.


I don't think many people are hitting 20 bps....
Not w/o cheater boards.

[68magOwner]

I don't think many people are hitting 20 bps....



sustained...no way in hell, bu ti think you would be amazed at the # of people who can shoot 20bps in 2-3 shot bursts, while tehcnicially its not 20bps becasue its no a whole second, you know what i mean, i think if you put a 20bps cap on most markers alot of people would experience skips in streams of paint from hitting over 20bps for a few shots

[$tevo]

i was playing around with Rob's Alias from team Hustler today, the trigger was amazing. i currently own a mech mag, classic valve. i was able to rip on it, it had 0 bounce and i loved it..i guess thats why im buying it from him

[lamby]

Well this is a big point of contention. Most pro eguns today go full auto when fired above a certain rate for a certain time. This is against industry agreed and voted on ASTM standards. Going against instustry standards opens the companies up to huge lawsuits. Since we are not in a position to take on huge lawsuits we dont produce this software and hence will never be conpetitive in the tournament world.

If you look at the ASTM votes you will find it really interesting on who was behind this and you have to ask the question why are they now making products that dont meet this standard.

AGD

Tom, this sounds like it is dancing on slander :nono: .. Do you have any proof of this? If so, post the code and PROVE it to us.

I know you can make a gun ramp with the code but I do not think that most or ANY out of the box markers use ramping code.

Shot buffering is another thing... If you have shot buffering with a large buffer and a small debounce setting you can get a a runaway situation, but that is not ramping just allowing the marker to store registered trigger pulls. Hell, your own 3.2 software does this but your trigger timming was so slow that you could not get the same effect as a timmy, dm4, or eblade can do (but will most likely get banned in most tourneys under the " trigger bounce" rule.)

Dont blame being non competitive on "the other guys cheat and we dont" mentality. Try blaming your poor marketing, small market presence, slow development, terrible roll-out capabilitys, and just plain lower performance for once and fix the problems instead of complaining about the situation.

[jesseyo13]

Dont blame being non competitive on "the other guys cheat and we dont" mentality. Try blaming your poor marketing, small market presence, slow development, terrible roll-out capabilitys, and just plain lower performance for once and fix the problems instead of complaining about the situation.

ouch..I do agree that they need to fire the marketing directer at AGD though. I only see advertising here. If you come here than you are all ready a customer or have been. Go place adds were it really makes a difference like pbn, pbreview and warpig. "terrible roll-out capabilitys" you said it brother.

[Beemer]

Here is this slander...........The Pros cheat..........sue me

Gee what happened at the Euro Masters 04? What team got DQ for a whole Game and Why?
If the NPPL had the nads they would do the same thing. To much inside politics. Thats the problem. Its all about the money and market share instead of safety and industry longevity

Who is on the ASTM Safety Standards subcommittee that voted 1 shot 1 pull no full auto, valves rated at 3000psi etc... then they come out with turbo and debounce settings.Correct me if im wrong is there a debounce setting on a e-mag


Heres a fact about the ASTM standards. If it has a debounce or buffer setting or at SOME point isnt 1 shot 1 pull it dont meet standards.
No matter how hard I try I cant get my e mag to shoot 16 if I pull 12 set up to factory specs.
When all I hear is the e-mag cant compare to these other e guns I dont wonder why I know why. Thing is if you took away the bounce and made these e guns 1 shot 1 pull you would be just as fast with a ULT. hmmmmmmmm[note to self ,talk to my laywer and insurence co about liabilities useing a gun I know doesnt meet ASTM standards]

Oh ya dont forget the politics.........Cant have no warp cause its force feed. But then how long till the Halo came out? Oh thats not force feed its just a loader you can use that. Wonder how many more warps wouldve sold. Guess it really dont matter because most of todays players are stuck in the box[old skool] with the blimp on top.


This is the one I love the most.........[DYE]Our gogs are tested to twice the current ASTM impact standards.........Our guns, well they dont quite meet em but we're working on it :headbang:


Heres what the industry is about today

1.MONEY
2.MONEY
3.Market share
4.Politics
5.Industry stability or longevity
6.Standards and SAFETY


What I THINK AGD was and is about today

1.SAFETY
2.SAFETY
3.longevity
4.Money


Theres the problem AGD is on the right side of the river. They dont want to listen to what he has to say any more. Why?
When the dust settles which side of the river will you be on?

AGD can talk. Will you listen and hear? The industry sure aint

[teufelhunden]

I don't think AGD has a marketing director. They don't need one...

AGD needs to get away from the all R&D no marketing thing. Nobody knows about your R&D, therefore it doesn't really matter, does it?

Word of mouth only gets you so far til it becomes like a game of telephone and 'Mags suck' and 'Mags are blenders'

[Rebel46_99]

Tom, this sounds like it is dancing on slander :nono: .. Do you have any proof of this? If so, post the code and PROVE it to us.

I know you can make a gun ramp with the code but I do not think ....

Amazing!!! In one sentence you demand proof and in the very next sentence you use the words "I do not think...", without any PROOF for your statement. Talk about a double standard. :tard:

If anyone has the equipment or technical capabilities to PROVE his point, IF he wished to do so just to satisfy your constant whining, it would be Mr. Kaye. Or are you privy to these Industry and Standards meetings? Are you on the Who's Who List of Marker Manufacturers to accuse another Manufacturer of slander? Didn't think so......... :rolleyes:

DW

[smartfarts]

guys.. please let mr. kaye post a reply first. You have to be BEHIND him to kiss his ***.

[SCpoloRicker]

Gonna get worse before it gets better... :(

Not to fan the flames, but I object to the tone of this conversation in general. The internet allows us to share our thoughts, equally, which is good; however, it seems we often don't take enough time to consider our words here.

If you search [gaak! search nazi :wow: ] for AGD's posts here, he is always professional, for lack of a better term. If not professional, then 'cool' or just, responsible. Same for many, many other members here. Ex and current armed forces, police, palientologous (sic), who the heck knows what else.

Unlike other online BBS communities, many of us consider AO a little, well, communal.

Flaming Tom Kaye, AGD, and the firm they've built is probably fueling the fire a little bit. :mad:

I'm not saying "All hail the chief! If it says AGD its the best! I hate SP/anti-anti-SP!" However, the dude did start his own firm, based on his hobby, and continues to operate.

Respect is earned, not given.

I work in Marketing, on the agency side. I admit that I cringe at AGD's market share decline. :( If it fit into TK and AGD's priorities, they could expand their efforts here. Personally, I doubt they will. I don't think they want to be in that market. I don't think they want those clients, that business, or that attitude about the sport.

It's rude to be totally dismissal of what a man and who knows how many employees have created, not to mention others adults (or well behaved youn un's ;) ), when you are most likely sitting in a dorm room... :eek:

No offense, have a beer on me sometime your in Nor-Cal :cheers:

Ricker

[edited for spelling]

[Beemer]

guys.. please let mr. kaye post a reply first. You have to be BEHIND him to kiss his ***.

Not for me, Im not behind Him.....figure it out

[Jaremy Rykker]

I don't think AGD has a marketing director. They don't need one...

AGD needs to get away from the all R&D no marketing thing. Nobody knows about your R&D, therefore it doesn't really matter, does it?

Word of mouth only gets you so far til it becomes like a game of telephone and 'Mags suck' and 'Mags are blenders'

Teufelhunden, as much as marketing is nice and will get you far, I really think you need to realize that AGD is really showing some class by not wasting all their time there. The best ideas I could see in the world is actually the sort of marketing that they're starting right now. Sponsoring Blitzkrieg in the scenario market, so that people will now see a large team and have a chance to interact with them. Hell, maybe even get a chance to tag along and try not to get in the way.


AGD needs to get away from all the R&D no marketing thing. Nobody knows about your R&D, therefore it doesn't really matter, does it?

I think Tom realizes that not a lot of people know about the level of R&D and anti-hype Tom goes to when putting out products. Nothing is ineffectual or hype-based, and he seems to put an intense amount of preparation into his products before they hit the market, rather than SP and their new nerve. The whole Nerve just sounds like some old design slapped together backwards and given a new price tag and some lovely hype.

Hype is the worst thing that could happen to AGD. It would be like swimming back across the river and joining the rest of the hype mongers.

Best thing you can do is to try to keep word of mouth going, and get people into mags. I'll be getting a TAC-ONE setup soon after trying one at my proshop, and I've got a friend who'll be getting one as well. Word of mouth works, and that's how you got me here.

[lamby]

Amazing!!! In one sentence you demand proof and in the very next sentence you use the words "I do not think...", without any PROOF for your statement. Talk about a double standard. :tard:

If anyone has the equipment or technical capabilities to PROVE his point, IF he wished to do so just to satisfy your constant whining, it would be Mr. Kaye. Or are you privy to these Industry and Standards meetings? Are you on the Who's Who List of Marker Manufacturers to accuse another Manufacturer of slander? Didn't think so......... :rolleyes:

DW


I was not the one that was slandering another company. If you make accusations in a public medium (internet) about a company or person you better have proof or that can be slander.

I said "I do not think that any markers come out of the box with ramping software"... That is my thoughts, and not the thoughts of anyone else. I did not make a broad generalization (sp) about a company. If I am wrong about my thoughts, I can be persuaded.... by facts PROVE ME WRONG AND TOM RIGHT THEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[spantol]

As this is a print medium, it'd be libel, not slander.


I was not the one that was slandering another company. If you make accusations in a public medium (internet) about a company or person you better have proof or that can be slander.

[Smoke]

As this is a print medium, it'd be libel, not slander.

Damn, I was going to post that.

Cheers on the quickness.

[Smoke]

I don't think AGD has a marketing director. They don't need one...

AGD needs to get away from the all R&D no marketing thing. Nobody knows about your R&D, therefore it doesn't really matter, does it?

Word of mouth only gets you so far til it becomes like a game of telephone and 'Mags suck' and 'Mags are blenders'

Advertising is a wicked thing.

You need money to advertise, but you won't make money unless you advertise. See how that works?

I think you should lay off Tom, he's doing well with his small business. I say small because it does not have it's own seperate corporate headquaters, it's own warehouse, marketing dept,etc. AGD is basically run out of 1 building (correct me if I'm wrong). It's easy for people like yourself to sit on the sidelines and complain, but it's another thing to actually try and do something as expensive as advertising. Magazine ads cost money, sponsoring teams costs money, getting your product's name out there (save for word of mouth) costs money. That's what our industry is about: money, money, money. He who has the deepest pockets calls the shots. It's sad to say, but I don't think Tom sleeps on a mattress stuffed with $100 bills. Give him a break.

[AGD]

I am totally amazed that you guys think that most eguns only fire one shot per pull but by some technical feat or brilliant design they are able to shoot a consistent 17 bps the first time you pick them up. Ask Dayspring how long it took him to hit 17 the first time he tried an Empire Intimidator.

I wasnt slandering or libeling anyone, I didn't mention any names. Go ask someone who was at the ASTM meetings and they will tell you.

AGD

[FallNAngel]

Thing is if you took away the bounce and made these e guns 1 shot 1 pull you would be just as fast with a ULT.

I somehow doubt I'll be pulling 14 or so with a mech ULT trigger

[Jaremy Rykker]

Could you explain this a little further Tom? I'm actually interested, but I'd like some explanation of what is actually done, because everything isn't always clear.

Are these guns shooting full auto once you get past a certain cps on the semi-auto trigger, or is that because of some aftermarket board.

[Steelrat]

I don't know about you guys, but I don't get any bounce on my viking, it just shoots one shot per pull.

http://homepage.mac.com/mvetter/.Movies/Viking_Dyndaflow.mov

[Head knight of Ni]

Well denial aside everyone can agree that many competitive tournament teams are using markers that are ramping or runing away. I'm thrilled to see that the NPPL is cracking down on Illegal markers. New devices have been imployed to catch cheater boards and the such. One team has already been eliminated from an entire tourney for illegal markers
cough- redz hurricane-cough.

[Beemer]

I somehow doubt I'll be pulling 14 or so with a mech ULT trigger

Because Why? Youre not that fast........go see my, how fast are you really thread
Sandman could pull 12 on a classic back in 92, wonder what he does on a ult now.

Avg is 8 to 10
Fast is 12 to 15
After that youre in the special skill group if it really is one shot one pull.


I am totally amazed that you guys.........

Hey I aint with that "you guys" group. My world is in a different shift.


I wasnt slandering or libeling anyone, I didn't mention any names. Go ask someone who was at the ASTM meetings and they will tell you.

Ask Bud Orr. He is the Chairman of the paintBall subcommittee.

[teufelhunden]

Advertising is a wicked thing.

You need money to advertise, but you won't make money unless you advertise. See how that works?

I think you should lay off Tom, he's doing well with his small business. I say small because it does not have it's own seperate corporate headquaters, it's own warehouse, marketing dept,etc. AGD is basically run out of 1 building (correct me if I'm wrong). It's easy for people like yourself to sit on the sidelines and complain, but it's another thing to actually try and do something as expensive as advertising. Magazine ads cost money, sponsoring teams costs money, getting your product's name out there (save for word of mouth) costs money. That's what our industry is about: money, money, money. He who has the deepest pockets calls the shots. It's sad to say, but I don't think Tom sleeps on a mattress stuffed with $100 bills. Give him a break.

I've always been taught that doing well, in a business sense, means expansion. I'm sure TK has a method for his madness [or hell, maybe not], but I haven't seen much in the way of expansion. New products, yeah, but an expansion in the market, not really.

Off to work. Will return later.

[billmi]

New devices have been imployed to catch cheater boards and the such.

New devices have been employed in the NPPL to catch legal guns that are adjusted into an illegal mode of operation.

No new deviced have been employed, or even designed to catch cheater boards (i.e. boards designed to operate illegally only when secretly selected to do so, and then revert back to legal operation automatically) nor has anyone even laid out a method for which to catch them.

[Muzikman]

New devices have been employed in the NPPL to catch legal guns that are adjusted into an illegal mode of operation.

No new deviced have been employed, or even designed to catch cheater boards (i.e. boards designed to operate illegally only when secretly selected to do so, and then revert back to legal operation automatically) nor has anyone even laid out a method for which to catch them.

Not sure how you would ever test that. Maybe standardize on boards and code and plug the guns in at random before or after games and check the code. Byond that, what could you do? To say you can only have factory boards would not work as people have found that they can reverse engineer the code in these boards and make it do what ever they want.

I personally think it's a lost cause and the problems will just get worse.

[billmi]

To say you can only have factory boards would not work as people have found that they can reverse engineer the code in these boards and make it do what ever they want.


It also assumes that a manufacturer would not make a cheater board for its own sponsored teams. History shows that is not the case.

[Stimulation]

Teufelhunden, as much as marketing is nice and will get you far, I really think you need to realize that AGD is really showing some class by not wasting all their time there. The best ideas I could see in the world is actually the sort of marketing that they're starting right now. Sponsoring Blitzkrieg in the scenario market, so that people will now see a large team and have a chance to interact with them. Hell, maybe even get a chance to tag along and try not to get in the way.




Holy Sh*t that is complete genius!!! GENIUS I SAY, GENIUS!!!!


I really wished somebody or some company would have thought about this new thing, sponsoring a team. They should call is sponsorship!!

Maybe other companies will catch on, like the big ones, AGD's competitors that are succeeding them in every category, soon we will see teams wearing their company names on paintball vests and sights and jerseys and such.

I just can't wait for everybody else to catch up to the times, it should be excellent. :rolleyes:




"Dont blame being non competitive on "the other guys cheat and we dont" mentality. Try blaming your poor marketing, small market presence, slow development, terrible roll-out capabilitys, and just plain lower performance for once and fix the problems instead of complaining about the situation."






Tom, this sounds like it is dancing on slander :nono: .. Do you have any proof of this? If so, post the code and PROVE it to us.




Shot buffering is another thing... Hell, your own 3.2 software does this but your trigger timming was so slow that you could not get the same effect as a timmy, dm4, or eblade can do (but will most likely get banned in most tourneys under the " trigger bounce" rule.)





The only [possibly] tourney level mechs are really nice 'Cockers and hAir Mags, both of which have more moving parts than most electros, save Eblades.

[Xtraboy]

Sadly, all guns have bounce today, nearly every single electro marker can bounce now... sad really..

shoot, even my spyder can bounce... http://home.comcast.net/~slipknot_fan/No_paint_-_33bps.MOV

[Jeffy-CanCon]

OK, THIS is why paintball isn't a serious sport.

ASTM aside, no governing body of a real sport would allow the use of equipment they cannot verify as being safe and within their own rules. That is proof that the industry calls the shots in paintball. If they can call the shots on the equipment, it's a short leap of logic that they are interfering in other ways as well. That's not honest competition, and thus paintball is not respected as a "real sport".

[GoatBoy]

New devices have been employed in the NPPL to catch legal guns that are adjusted into an illegal mode of operation.

No new deviced have been employed, or even designed to catch cheater boards (i.e. boards designed to operate illegally only when secretly selected to do so, and then revert back to legal operation automatically) nor has anyone even laid out a method for which to catch them.


And there probably never will be without some sort of really invasive solution.

This is sadly more a failing of our little paintball community.

We have way too many in our midst who admire, and aspire to be, the cheaters in our sport.

Then, out of the minority that doesn't admire the cheaters, you can slice the ranks down even further by separating those who have the integrity to speak with their money, and those who don't.



In the end, as far as the companies are concerned, they don't care because the people don't care.




All that aside, it's funny to see AGD get roasted like this. AGD is always right, huh?

[SlartyBartFast]

OK, THIS is why paintball isn't a serious sport.

ASTM aside, no governing body of a real sport would allow the use of equipment they cannot verify as being safe and within their own rules.


Too true.

The whole invasive garbage about proper enforcement is hogwash. There are only so many microcontrollers on the market. It would be a simple issue to have an independant individual examine and approve all code and have compiled code and the equipment to flash all guns prior to a tourney. Put a tamper resistant sticker over the whole board and VOILA! end of all cheater boards.

There are escrow companies for large complex coputer code, the piddling little programs for paintguns would be a joke to examine and monitor.

[hitech]

Actually, detecting cheater boards is a lot harder than at first it appears. I could make a cheater board for an eMag that would be undetectable. Why? Because it wouldn't be mounted in the marker! It would be mounted in my glove and never have to come in contact with the marker.

F1 racing couldn't figure out how to police "fly by wire", even with their huge budget. How can we expect to?

That said, you would think they would at least make an attempt. They should at least be able to slow it down. The problem is that they are not motivated enough.

[billmi]

Too true.

It would be a simple issue to have an independant individual examine and approve all code and have compiled code and the equipment to flash all guns prior to a tourney.

That would be a far, far from simple issue.

[GoatBoy]

Too true.

The whole invasive garbage about proper enforcement is hogwash. There are only so many microcontrollers on the market. It would be a simple issue to have an independant individual examine and approve all code and have compiled code and the equipment to flash all guns prior to a tourney. Put a tamper resistant sticker over the whole board and VOILA! end of all cheater boards.

There are escrow companies for large complex coputer code, the piddling little programs for paintguns would be a joke to examine and monitor.


Hrm.

Even if this were the case, are you assuming the only way to cheat is to change the main microcontroller's code?


Yeah, checking a micro's code is fairly simple. Same with glue logic (CPLD's, FPGA's, etc), ROM's, and whatever else, I guess provided the pins for the interface are accessible and that they're not read-protected. I guess you'd mandate that the manufacturers are going to leave the debug ports open and code unlocked for this?


But alas, that's too simple.


To do this right, you would need more than a simple-minded code check. It would require a full physical audit of components and layout, because boy, you could really be sneaky and bury a micro right inside the trigger switch, right? Or how about that one mysterious IC that was either unmarked or mislabeled?


How about an RF/magnetic triggered cheat? How about an out-of-spec board that happens to "accidentally" make contacts with points on the marker that are electrically (or any other means) accessible from the outside? Uh oh, now you have to start checking the physical gun itself.





This tamper resistant sticker technology... can you describe it in detail please? How would that work exactly? Maybe you're thinking of something more advanced than what I'm used to.

[jesseyo13]

It would be a lot easier on wdp guns with infa red ports. If someone really wanted to they probibly could. Acording to the manual it can read up to 20-25 feet.

[lamby]

As this is a print medium, it'd be libel, not slander.

Thank you for the correction.. I work in a tv station and slander is drilled into my head. I forgot about the seperation of print and spoken media..

I bow in my concession.

Tom still is not giving us anything to use to prove his arguement or debunk the libal that he was speaking off.

TOM CAN YOU PROVE THESE ACCUSATIONS???

[Head knight of Ni]

"New devices have been employed in the NPPL to catch legal guns that are adjusted into an illegal mode of operation." :tard: well not cheater boards but "the such" yes. :ninja:

NPPL 1 PSP 0 cheaters 20651 :argh:

[Jaremy Rykker]

I just can't wait for everybody else to catch up to the times, it should be excellent. :rolleyes:


"Dont blame being non competitive on "the other guys cheat and we dont" mentality. Try blaming your poor marketing, small market presence, slow development, terrible roll-out capabilitys, and just plain lower performance for once and fix the problems instead of complaining about the situation."

Poor Marketing... Blitzkrieg is the first.
Small Market Presence... Only in tournament. They're picking up in scenario.
Slow Development... As compared to "Slap two tubes together, and if it doesn't work, just make hype that it does."
Terrible Roll-out Capability: TK, he has a point
Lower Performance... Back that up. I've found the newest AGD products to be of great quality.

Tom doesn't really give a care in the world about being a competetive tourney manufacturer anymore. Haven't you figured that out Stimulation? That's why the E-Mag and X-Mag were discontinued, and the two latest releases by AGD are the long-term TAC-ONE and the short release of the Sydarm. Heck, the only tournament-style marker they make anymore is the RT-ULE and it isn't an electro.

TK has a definate point, in that there is a ton of crap going on in tournament paintball, and a large number of the influential players cheat.

What is the advantage of sponsoring a tournament team to use your RT-ULE? People see this slow shooting mechanical marker that is shooting definitively slower than these electro cockers that are ramped and whatnot. Then finally, the team starts pulling their hair (triggers) out, and they come back to it, but there is no point in trying to advertise a legitimate product when cheat products outperform yours because they cheat the rules.


On the other hand, lets look at the brilliance of TK's latest move by sponsoring Blitzkrieg. For the opening note, scenario teams get a lot more contact with average players than some tournament team. They will be largely using well equipped TAC-ONEs (my understanding), and this is in an environment where the TAC-ONE and other similiar high-speed mechs really shine.

Scenario teams are on the whole more interactive with other participants in events, and the whole nature is friendlier. And, after that even, Tom Kaye himself no longer bothers with speedball, and comments how he basically just plays scenario now. Wonder if its just his selfish enjoyment of scenario that has him coming out with such sweet products, but believe my, I'm grateful for that selfish enjoyment.

[Beemer]

Thank you for the correction.. I work in a tv station and slander is drilled into my head. I forgot about the seperation of print and spoken media..

I bow in my concession.

Tom still is not giving us anything to use to prove his arguement or debunk the libal that he was speaking off.

TOM CAN YOU PROVE THESE ACCUSATIONS???


Read the thread again. Tell me what part of the math you dont understand and I will explain some more.

What guns come out of the box with a debounce setting????????????????

Has the NPPL or any one banned any of these???????????????????
Why dont we have a governing body again???????????

The simple fact that there is a debounce or buffer makes it non ASTM conforming. PERIOD

I dont need no special code. All I have to do is reset it, of course how good I do that depends on how good I can cheat. Which aint to hard REALLY.

41 of your peers from in and around the industry put up these standards. Why??????????

Then to back pedal and do it anyway. WHY?????????????????

Tell me again why full auto was banned????????
Tell me again why we dont use uvex gogs anymore?????????






In the end, as far as the companies are concerned, they don't care because the people don't care.

All that aside, it's funny to see AGD get roasted like this. AGD is always right, huh

1 company I know of still cares but you are right about the rest. Are you with the people that dont care????

Who says AGD is always right? YOU? Big difference between always right and always cares.

[FallNAngel]

Because Why? Youre not that fast........go see my, how fast are you really thread
Sandman could pull 12 on a classic back in 92, wonder what he does on a ult now.

Avg is 8 to 10
Fast is 12 to 15
After that youre in the special skill group if it really is one shot one pull.


A) That thread you made asked how fast you *think* you are. Not how fast you've been confirmed at. BIG difference.
B) With my fiances Angel LCD, I've hit 13 or 14. I've gone faster with my Cyborg, so it's not just me.

If someone can pull 14 on a mech ULT gun without bounce/sweetspotting, etc. I'd like to see it. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'd like to see it anyway.

[Beemer]

A) That thread you made asked how fast you *think* you are. Not how fast you've been confirmed at. BIG difference.
B) With my fiances Angel LCD, I've hit 13 or 14. I've gone faster with my Cyborg, so it's not just me.

If someone can pull 14 on a mech ULT gun without bounce/sweetspotting, etc. I'd like to see it. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'd like to see it anyway.

And your angel and cyborg are really one shot one pull no bounce FORSURE. Meets ASTM Standards? Whats the human limit again? If you can pull 15 plus REALLY, good for you. Above average and skilled[fast] should mean something right. Well it did, but not no more.


I.A.D.S.P.B.P
Beemer

[jesseyo13]

The angel lcd has 0 bounce on its micro switch. If you have ever shot one you would know. It is impossible to get them to bouce even once, trust me Ive tried. Every angel with the opto board can bounce though if it is set up right.

[Dayspring]

He's right. First time using the Empire & the new Frenzy board (before it was actually released to anybody) you could feel the gun take off. Hell, we have it on video some where...



Ask Dayspring how long it took him to hit 17 the first time he tried an Empire Intimidator.

[Lurker27]

I have a friend that can hit 18+ consistently... It's definately not bounce, if you sound graph it you can see the rhythm, where they come in bursts of 2...index, middle, index, middle.

On the field, its detectable...jsut start pulling people for shooting faster than 25. It's not physically possible to sustain more than 20 for any appreciable length of time.

[Danman69]

A) That thread you made asked how fast you *think* you are. Not how fast you've been confirmed at. BIG difference.
B) With my fiances Angel LCD, I've hit 13 or 14. I've gone faster with my Cyborg, so it's not just me.

If someone can pull 14 on a mech ULT gun without bounce/sweetspotting, etc. I'd like to see it. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'd like to see it anyway.\

In the last part, does fanning count?

[SlartyBartFast]

To do this right, you would need more than a simple-minded code check. It would require a full physical audit of components and layout, because boy, you could really be sneaky and bury a micro right inside the trigger switch, right? Or how about that one mysterious IC that was either unmarked or mislabeled?

F1?!?, unique board layouts?!?, hiding micro cicuits in triggers?!?, Radio frequency controllers in gloves?!? :tard:

Please. Authorized boards, from authorised manufacturers, with authorised code. It would be a start. The teams don't have the budget to cheat with complex and unique technology. All the cheats to date have been software no?

But, whatever. I suppose you could spend two billion dollars designing a marker that would get past the most sofisticated testing regime. So I suppose even attempting to raise the bar aginst cheaters is just pointless. :tard:

Well. Guess that leaves *****ing and whining about the cheaters and then *****ing and whining that nothing can be done. :rolleyes:

[teufelhunden]

Poor Marketing... Blitzkrieg is the first.
Small Market Presence... Only in tournament. They're picking up in scenario.
Slow Development... As compared to "Slap two tubes together, and if it doesn't work, just make hype that it does."
Terrible Roll-out Capability: TK, he has a point
Lower Performance... Back that up. I've found the newest AGD products to be of great quality.

Tom doesn't really give a care in the world about being a competetive tourney manufacturer anymore. Haven't you figured that out Stimulation? That's why the E-Mag and X-Mag were discontinued, and the two latest releases by AGD are the long-term TAC-ONE and the short release of the Sydarm. Heck, the only tournament-style marker they make anymore is the RT-ULE and it isn't an electro.

TK has a definate point, in that there is a ton of crap going on in tournament paintball, and a large number of the influential players cheat.

What is the advantage of sponsoring a tournament team to use your RT-ULE? People see this slow shooting mechanical marker that is shooting definitively slower than these electro cockers that are ramped and whatnot. Then finally, the team starts pulling their hair (triggers) out, and they come back to it, but there is no point in trying to advertise a legitimate product when cheat products outperform yours because they cheat the rules.


On the other hand, lets look at the brilliance of TK's latest move by sponsoring Blitzkrieg. For the opening note, scenario teams get a lot more contact with average players than some tournament team. They will be largely using well equipped TAC-ONEs (my understanding), and this is in an environment where the TAC-ONE and other similiar high-speed mechs really shine.

Scenario teams are on the whole more interactive with other participants in events, and the whole nature is friendlier. And, after that even, Tom Kaye himself no longer bothers with speedball, and comments how he basically just plays scenario now. Wonder if its just his selfish enjoyment of scenario that has him coming out with such sweet products, but believe my, I'm grateful for that selfish enjoyment.


Blitzkreig is a scenario team. Don't see any scenario coverage online. You can't say that sponsoring a scenario team is like sponsoring a tourney team. I doubt I'll see D-Day DVDs out any time soon, but I guarantee you the nppl videos will keep coming out.

Yeah, thats how all the other companies do. :rolleyes:

You agreed with bad rollout.

Performance? For $340, I could get a B2K or I could get an RTP. Hm. Performance usually means speed. B2K wins. Performance means accuracy. Equal, provided they have the same barrel and paint. Performance means efficiency... 'Mags lose to everybody here. That's performance. So there's lower performing.

Tom's taking Airgun from the tourney scene because they weren't successful, not because he doesn't want to be there anymore. If everybody was shooting X-Mags instead of Timmys, do you think he'd be leaving? Didn't think so.

Yadda yadda, cheating this cheating that. It's not as bad as everybody makes it out to be... its more people trying to bring down tourney ball cuz its not what they play. Ramps aren't even illegal anymore in the NXL, and gun cheats aren't as big of a deal in the NPPL... they haven't hit that heavy yet, from what I can tell. Only bounce, really, but now they have el robot.

I already wrote a nice thing about how the hAir may very well end up killing the 'Mag more than helping it. It's a few days old, you can search my posts.

Scenario players get more contact? Um, no? Maybe playing with the man next to you kinda contact, but there's nobody watching. And once again, far more videos/articles/pictures of tourney than scenario.



Man, I'm done with tourney ball for a while yet I still find myself defending it all the time. Hmm. Oh, I know why. Would offend people if I said it, but you can figure it out.

[billmi]

Please. Authorized boards, from authorised manufacturers, with authorised code. It would be a start.

And it's just not practical.

First - you have to get all the manufacturers to agree to make boards that can be flashed in the field, and to turn over their authorized source code to an independant autitor/installer. A few years back, almost all of the leading manufacturers agreed to make semi-only paintguns with a 14 bps cap. None of them followed through on the agreement (some had faster guns on the market, and didn't restrict them, others came out with faster guns since.) No way will this ever happen in this fractured industry.

If it did happen......

Picture a typical PSP event:

Number of guns here is an estimate taking into account backup guns and extra players on the roster:

35 10 man teams at 15 guns per - 525
40 5 man teams at 7 guns per - 200
55 X Ball teams at 10 guns per - 550
9 NXL teams at 20 guns per - 180

That's a total of 1,455 guns that need to be checked for proper function (if you don't check it first, and it's a bad board, the customer then complains that you ruined their gun), have timing values downloaded, flashed with new software, timing values re uploaded then re-assembled and sealed with the tamper evident seal. Ballpark - lets say an average of 4 minutes per. That's 97 man hours of labor for teams to get their guns checked in.

Taking a person's picture and dropping it into a database, then printing an ID card is a fraction as complex or time consuming as "secure prepping" a paintgun, yet it took the NPPL 3 years to get to the point where the majority - though not 100% of the players had IDs - the first year the IDs were considered little more than a souvenier as they were mailed to the players after the season was over.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

F1?!?, unique board layouts?!?, hiding micro cicuits in triggers?!?, Radio frequency controllers in gloves?!? :tard:

Please. Authorized boards, from authorised manufacturers, with authorised code. It would be a start. The teams don't have the budget to cheat with complex and unique technology. All the cheats to date have been software no?

But, whatever. I suppose you could spend two billion dollars designing a marker that would get past the most sofisticated testing regime. So I suppose even attempting to raise the bar aginst cheaters is just pointless. :tard:

Well. Guess that leaves *****ing and whining about the cheaters and then *****ing and whining that nothing can be done. :rolleyes:


Maybe all those things are possible, feasible, even easy. I'm not a tech, and I don't know. I'll trust Bill Mills' scepticism, though. E-markers are inherently difficult to verify. Maybe, if we want paintball to be a serious sport, with enforceable rules and a level playing field, we need to look at going back to mechanical-only markers.

But since none of us has any influence on the "pro" leagues, this is all academic.

[Smoke]

I doubt I'll see D-Day DVDs out any time soon, but I guarantee you the nppl videos will keep coming out.


Excuse me?!? Tell me you're joking.....

http://store.yahoo.com/actionvillage/059-143-0005.html

D-Day '04 is probably still in post production.

[SlartyBartFast]

That's a total of 1,455 guns that need to be checked for proper function (if you don't check it first, and it's a bad board, the customer then complains that you ruined their gun), have timing values downloaded, flashed with new software, timing values re uploaded then re-assembled and sealed with the tamper evident seal. Ballpark - lets say an average of 4 minutes per. That's 97 man hours of labor for teams to get their guns checked in.

Well, if the will is there it would be possible. How long does it take to chrono before each game? How long is it going to take the “robot” in the NPPL to do its job?
The ID card example is pathetic. It’s not an example of how difficult it is to do, it’s an example of how inept those that were doing it were. I’ve been at conferences where thousands of ID badges and information packages were prepared. In the case of paintball IDs it seems it was more of the same game of LOOKING like something was being done, but in essence not doing anything (or doing little).
As for people trying to have VERY complicated cheats, well that’s easy to stop. It’s all part of standard security ‘swiss cheese’ theory. No one measure will catch everything, but all measures together catch the maximum possible.
First, raise the bar with enforceable standards.
Two, enforce the standards and enforce them draconianly. (Perhaps this is Step 1.)
Three, make the sanctions large enough to dissuade breaking the rules.
Four, impound all guns on winning teams after the final win so they can be examined/tested in detail. (You could even impound guns randomly during the game schedule after a game the precedes a lull in a teams schedule.)
Or, some industry, tournament, or some enforceable regulatory (the insurance companies?) weight could at least be put behind minimum standards for out-of-the-box performance and specifications. WDP had the encapsulated electronics board. That, along with out-of-the-box enforced regulations would limit cheating to factory teams and would require provable collusion of the manufacturer or expensive counterfeiting/manufacturing capability on the part of the cheater.
But the paintball industry doesn’t care, nor does the average paintball player. Otherwise, consistent rule enforcement and uniform officiating standards would be a priority, not an afterthought. Players wouldn’t be lining up for tournaments based on unattainable prizes, but for the quality of the event. Perhaps the industry will only care once paint sales level off and then drop as fewer people become interested in playing a sport that involves win-at-all-costs attitudes, being lit up, bruising, and/or injury every time you play or demands that your day be a simple battle of who has the deepest pockets for paint purchases.
The tournament scene might not eat themselves alive anytime soon. They’ve been teetering on the brink for a long time. And it’s pathetic, because just a portion of the prize package would purchase a good bit of sustainable officiating.
But, if local fields want to have consistent repeat business and to attract new customers, they’re going to have to grab the beast by the horns and come up with rules to enforce what equipment a customer is allowed to bring to the field. But then again, even the largest fields here seem to have difficulty stopping walk-on idiots with spyders and thumb velocity adjusters. But, then again, the local scene has weeded-out the field operators that weren’t new player friendly or who didn’t effectively cater to a wide clientèle.
Even after all that, this whole discussion revolves around a basic falsehood. It assumes that, besides flash and image, the tournament market and aspiring tournament players are a large proportion of the paintball playing community.
I’ve never been a fan of AGD marketing, but maybe they’re onto something. Seems to me that the tournament scene is something like F1, lots of people watch but very few participate. If you want to run a successful race parts company, do you attack the F1 market or go after the stockcar racers? Many big name car makers aren’t in the ‘top’ race series. Some don’t participate in the ‘professional’ race scene at all and are more involved in club racing.
AGD has already identified the scenario game market as one key target of their marketing. Tom has also been on AO with offers to sponsor any mech-only tournament series. To each their own niche.
Hopefully, the preceding rambling mess made some sort of sense.

[FallNAngel]

It made sense to me... and I agree with the rules that need to be put in place and enforced. People complain about cheating, but when it comes time to prevent it, nothing is done. Perhaps it's just me, but I would think having the settings of the gun stored on one chip and the actual programming logic stored on another would simplify things.

When you go to walk on the field, you connect to a small laptop, and your gun is flashed. You turn your gun on, which will already have the settings (dwell, etc) stored on the other chip, and you're ready to go. If you're found with any other board in the frame, your team is ejected from the tournement and you lose all points gained. Checking the winning teams guns and other teams in lulls between games, would also help. It wouldn't need to be a huge indepth check... just open the grips and make sure there's nothing fishy going on.

As previously said though, it's not going to happen.

[Stimulation]

F1?!?, unique board layouts?!?, hiding micro cicuits in triggers?!?, Radio frequency controllers in gloves?!? :tard:

Please. Authorized boards, from authorised manufacturers, with authorised code. It would be a start. The teams don't have the budget to cheat with complex and unique technology. All the cheats to date have been software no?

But, whatever. I suppose you could spend two billion dollars designing a marker that would get past the most sofisticated testing regime. So I suppose even attempting to raise the bar aginst cheaters is just pointless. :tard:

Well. Guess that leaves *****ing and whining about the cheaters and then *****ing and whining that nothing can be done. :rolleyes:


It would take almost nothing to do something like this. Hell, I can. Yes, something in glove or crotch could work. A radio frequency switch, that switches the code rom cheat to non cheat or semi to full auto, and you trigger it by hidden buttons on your pocket or crotch or whatever

[GoatBoy]

F1?!?, unique board layouts?!?, hiding micro cicuits in triggers?!?, Radio frequency controllers in gloves?!? :tard:

Please. Authorized boards, from authorised manufacturers, with authorised code. It would be a start. The teams don't have the budget to cheat with complex and unique technology. All the cheats to date have been software no?


Some teams don't even have the budget to even PLAY paintball on their own. They usually get help on these things elsewhere. You think those players actually know how to write code for a microcontroller in the first place?

It looks like you acknowledged the need to audit hardware without actually admitting to it. You just used the term "authorised (sic)". That's odd, you went from a "simple" task of "an independant (sic) individual" examining and approving code to... well, someone examining and approving hardware. Maybe you simply implied this much larger requirement. Is there anything else that you've been implying that we should be aware of? We're obviously not as sharp as you on these matters.



But, whatever. I suppose you could spend two billion dollars designing a marker that would get past the most sofisticated testing regime. So I suppose even attempting to raise the bar aginst cheaters is just pointless. :tard:

So you think that the task of checking all markers for cheats is "simple", but you think designing a "sofisticated (sic)" scheme to defeat the checks would cost two billion dollars?


Well. Guess that leaves *****ing and whining about the cheaters and then *****ing and whining that nothing can be done. :rolleyes:

I guess if you were small minded, this would be the only course of action you were left with.

I never said there was no recourse against cheaters. I described the problem in the very post with the "invasive garbage" that you got hung up on. Did you go into your mad haze before you managed to finish reading my post?

There have been very few technological solutions that I can remember that actually managed to curb human desires. This is easily going to fall under this category.




Oh, and by the way, I am still waiting for you to explain your fabulous tamper resistant sticker technology.

[hitech]

F1?!?, unique board layouts?!?...Radio frequency controllers in gloves?!? ...

Please. Authorized boards, from authorized manufacturers, with authorized code. It would be a start. The teams don't have the budget to cheat with complex and unique technology. All the cheats to date have been software no?

But, whatever. I suppose you could spend two billion dollars designing a marker that would get past the most sophisticated testing regime.

While I agree that they need to start somewhere, trying to check the code and circuit board in the marker isn't a good start. For a few hundred dollars and a couple of weekends work I could make a cheater board that COULDN'T be detected by examining the marker. All it needs to do is produce a magnetic pulse (a simple thing to do) near the HES. Control it with a basic stamp, vary the time between the pulse and you have a cheater board that is not contained within the marker. No radio frequency necessary. ;)

All current cheats have been software because it's easy to do and no one is checking anything.

Having a "ref" randomly video tape players with a high-speed video camera and review it for extra shots would catch all bps increasing cheats and be easier to implement. A device that would mechanically fire a marker and check for bounce would seem like a minimum. Even THAT hasn't happened yet. :(


BTW, I am NOT some electronic engineering genius. I took two years of HIGH SCHOOL electronics and I know how to write business application software (not embedded circuit software). The cheat I am talking about requires basic electronic and programming knowledge. Almost everything you need to know can be found at www.warpig.com . :D

[SlartyBartFast]

Some teams don't even have the budget to even PLAY paintball on their own. They usually get help on these things elsewhere. You think those players actually know how to write code for a microcontroller in the first place?
So, you start by agreeing with my base principle. Makes the rest of your post which seems to vehemently opposed to my suggestions rather bizarre. The most cheating is from average paintballers using the cheats built into the standard software and failures in design of the hardware. Not big budget teams with access programming, development and (willing to cheat) factory support.
Auditing software and hardware isn’t such an onerous task. The Angel had (has?) an encapsulated board, standards could require a flashable chip, and it would be a once per production change exercise for manufacturers.
Granted, I added authorised boards to the list after you (and others) added the idea “hiding a circuit somewhere is easy”. I’d like to see that in practice if code needed to be flashed.

So you think that the task of checking all markers for cheats is "simple", but you think designing a "sofisticated (sic)" scheme to defeat the checks would cost two billion dollars?
Sorry, I’ll go back and add a sarcasm smiley. But, the main attack against technological enforcement of the rules has been people saying “It’s easy to develop a cheat”. Like the “RF board in your crotch” BS. That’s not that simple or cheap to develop. Need someone who knows circuits, programming, and be allowed to have any board you want in your marker.
Checking markers won’t be simple. Nor will it necessarily be cheap. But it needs doing and the manufacturers could be held for the cost by charging them to have their equipment approved.

I guess if you were small minded, this would be the only course of action you were left with.
Well, lot’s of small minds here then. Either complaining about the rules, their enforcement, the cheating, and how impossible it is to stop cheating is about all you hear. Precious little in the way of suggestions of what rules can be added or how enforcement can be improved. So far you’ve concentrated on mocking my suggestions. Got any positive suggestions of your own to contribute?

I never said there was no recourse against cheaters. I described the problem in the very post with the "invasive garbage" that you got hung up on. Did you go into your mad haze before you managed to finish reading my post?
You’re last post said very little. It certainly didn’t propose any alternative way to control the game. The workarounds you suggest are laughable at this time because the cheating isn’t THAT far advanced yet. Even if it was, if software was flashed and boards were encapsulated, out of spec boards and all the other garbage would be caught with a single inspection of the winning teams guns.

There have been very few technological solutions that I can remember that actually managed to curb human desires. This is easily going to fall under this category.
Well, gee. If we can’t curb human desire I guess we better embrace cheating and throw out the rule book. No? Why use the technology of the chronographs to monitor FPS? Why bother looking for cars speeding if they can use radar detectors to slow down and avoid a ticket? Your point was?

Oh, and by the way, I am still waiting for you to explain your fabulous tamper resistant sticker technology.
That’s so simple it’s laughable. Ever try to open an electronic device that has a “don’t tamper” sticker around it? Software often comes packaged with a seal that proves it’s genuine. Pull the seal off and the image is destroyed. Go ahead and try to open a hard drive. Or how about the little stickers they put on the side of rental VHS cassettes to make sure you haven’t messed them up. Or, the really low-tech stickers they put on large items at the grocery store to show you’ve paid for them.
Making something tamperproof is easy and VERY difficult to get around. Going back to the racing analogy, each race circuit has numerous items that need to be checked and computer boxes and controls that need sealed. Simple stickers and tags are sufficient to stop race teams with huge budgets from playing with certain parts.
If a control board is enclosed, a sticker with a serial number just has to be placed over to point where the enclosure halves join.
But, why should I go on. Seems the general concensus is to let electronic markers do whatever they want. :rolleyes:

By the way: Google "tamper resistant sticker tag" and see how many thousands of hits you get. They've got tamperresistant hologram marking on baseball cards for cripes sake. :bounce:

[SlartyBartFast]

Having a "ref" randomly video tape players with a high-speed video camera and review it for extra shots would catch all bps increasing cheats and be easier to implement. A device that would mechanically fire a marker and check for bounce would seem like a minimum. Even THAT hasn't happened yet. :(

I've suggested in the past that each team be allowed to designate a video camera operator. Then, have very specific penalties for evidence of rules infractions after the fact or of wasting the judges time with bogus complaints.

I'd love to see you build something with a basic stamp that wouldn't be obvious even to an untrained eye that it didn't belong on a production board. :rolleyes:

[trains are bad]

I have a simple solution. :rolleyes:

Limit paint, and allow any firing modes desired, and enforce overshooting. Nobody will want to shoot 20bps when they only have 500 rounds. And get pulled for shooting someone more than 3-4 times. The problem will solve itself.

If you want the ROF/safety factor to change, you have to make it to the teams advantage to change it. The teams' job is to push the rules. Right now the rules are unenforceable. Why this was not anticipated and is not being dealt with is obvious: Paintball's organizing bodies are a joke.

But nobody listens to me. :cry:

[SlartyBartFast]

I have a simple solution. :rolleyes:

But those are no fun! :p But you do make an excellent point. On the otherhand, go look at the threads we've had on AO when rying to discuss even the most basic rules and their enforcement.

Personally, I think limited paint is the best. It's the ultimate equaliser. But, the only real money to be made in paintball is the consumables. The number one consumable is the paint. Fields, manufacturers, and organisers won't like it. :shooting:


But nobody listens to me. :cry:

I know how you feel. :rofl:

[Halliday]

All these arguments, new tech, new rules and ramped cheating would just be a moot point if they just went full-auto.

[SlartyBartFast]

All these arguments, new tech, new rules and ramped cheating would just be a moot point if they just went full-auto.

Honestly, ther's probably only one reason they won't. The insurance companies would never allow it. :cool:

[hitech]

I'd love to see you build something with a basic stamp that wouldn't be obvious even to an untrained eye that it didn't belong on a production board. :rolleyes:
Since it won't be in the marker, it would be easy. ;)

Remember, I'm taking about the eMag. The trigger is magnetic.

[teufelhunden]

At least cheating well is a skill... full auto is a joke. Every 12 year old, E-Spyder nub's dream come true... he too can shoot as fast as the pros! :rolleyes:

[SlartyBartFast]

Since it won't be in the marker, it would be easy. ;)

Remember, I'm taking about the eMag. The trigger is magnetic.

So, you're hoping that nobody ever shakes your hand or otherwise notices that big lump in your glove with the wires running down your wrist and arm to the battery pack. :rolleyes:

So, your 'easy' cheat involves programming, board development, sewing, and spy like maneuvers to hide your equipment from any and all observation. :p

[hitech]

...And get pulled for shooting someone more than 3-4 times. The problem will solve itself.


You know, that might almost be enough by it'self. Regardless, I think THAT is a rule that should be enforced. PERIOD. But, that is another story.

[SlartyBartFast]

At least cheating well is a skill... full auto is a joke. Every 12 year old, E-Spyder nub's dream come true... he too can shoot as fast as the pros! :rolleyes:

What? Cheating with most boards/markers is as simple as settings and trigger adjustments. There's no skill in cheating with what's allowed on the field these days.

[hitech]

So, you're hoping that nobody ever shakes your hand or otherwise notices that big lump in your glove with the wires running down your wrist and arm to the battery pack. :rolleyes:

So, your 'easy' cheat involves programming, board development, sewing, and spy like maneuvers to hide your equipment from any and all observation. :p

There would be no wires running to a battery pack. The current and voltage requirements of a basic stamp and simple coil are small. There are flexible batteries that are paper thin that are capable of providing the necessary voltage/current. Hiding the basic stamp under the plastic shield on the back of some gloves isn't that hard either. But, yeah, you would also need to know basic sewing. Something anyone could learn in an hour.

I'm positive that I could build it and keep it hidden. Unless your going to confiscate ALL my equipment and clothes, I'd be able to do it. If I can figure out how to do this, imagine what someone who is actually on a "pro" team and wants to cheat can do. ;)

The bottom line is that catching cheating with electronically controlled markers is EXTREMELY difficult. That doesn't mean "we" shouldn't try. However, attempting to examine every marker's software and electronics just isn't a good answer...

Mechanical markers would solve all of this. :D

[hitech]

What? Cheating with most boards/markers is as simple as settings and trigger adjustments. There's no skill in cheating with what's allowed on the field these days.

Ahmen! :hail:

[Jaremy Rykker]

I heard an idea in another thread of giving everybody the same hopper. For example, give everybody a Revvy or Reloader, and give 'em whatever rate of fire they want, even if its full auto. They can't outshoot their hopper, so it avoids problems there.

Once again... fields hate it. No pain(t)=No (fiscal) gain.

[Tapper]

So, you start by agreeing with my base principle. Makes the rest of your post which seems to vehemently opposed to my suggestions rather bizarre. The most cheating is from average paintballers using the cheats built into the standard software and failures in design of the hardware. Not big budget teams with access programming, development and (willing to cheat) factory support.
Auditing software and hardware isn’t such an onerous task. The Angel had (has?) an encapsulated board, standards could require a flashable chip, and it would be a once per production change exercise for manufacturers.
Granted, I added authorised boards to the list after you (and others) added the idea “hiding a circuit somewhere is easy”. I’d like to see that in practice if code needed to be flashed.

Sorry, I’ll go back and add a sarcasm smiley. But, the main attack against technological enforcement of the rules has been people saying “It’s easy to develop a cheat”. Like the “RF board in your crotch” BS. That’s not that simple or cheap to develop. Need someone who knows circuits, programming, and be allowed to have any board you want in your marker.
Checking markers won’t be simple. Nor will it necessarily be cheap. But it needs doing and the manufacturers could be held for the cost by charging them to have their equipment approved.

Well, lot’s of small minds here then. Either complaining about the rules, their enforcement, the cheating, and how impossible it is to stop cheating is about all you hear. Precious little in the way of suggestions of what rules can be added or how enforcement can be improved. So far you’ve concentrated on mocking my suggestions. Got any positive suggestions of your own to contribute?

You’re last post said very little. It certainly didn’t propose any alternative way to control the game. The workarounds you suggest are laughable at this time because the cheating isn’t THAT far advanced yet. Even if it was, if software was flashed and boards were encapsulated, out of spec boards and all the other garbage would be caught with a single inspection of the winning teams guns.

Well, gee. If we can’t curb human desire I guess we better embrace cheating and throw out the rule book. No? Why use the technology of the chronographs to monitor FPS? Why bother looking for cars speeding if they can use radar detectors to slow down and avoid a ticket? Your point was?

That’s so simple it’s laughable. Ever try to open an electronic device that has a “don’t tamper” sticker around it? Software often comes packaged with a seal that proves it’s genuine. Pull the seal off and the image is destroyed. Go ahead and try to open a hard drive. Or how about the little stickers they put on the side of rental VHS cassettes to make sure you haven’t messed them up. Or, the really low-tech stickers they put on large items at the grocery store to show you’ve paid for them.
Making something tamperproof is easy and VERY difficult to get around. Going back to the racing analogy, each race circuit has numerous items that need to be checked and computer boxes and controls that need sealed. Simple stickers and tags are sufficient to stop race teams with huge budgets from playing with certain parts.
If a control board is enclosed, a sticker with a serial number just has to be placed over to point where the enclosure halves join.
But, why should I go on. Seems the general concensus is to let electronic markers do whatever they want. :rolleyes:

By the way: Google "tamper resistant sticker tag" and see how many thousands of hits you get. They've got tamperresistant hologram marking on baseball cards for cripes sake. :bounce:

This cheating topic was talked about in detail in a couple of threads a few months back. If I remember, you are one of the people that gives me a headache reading your posts. If I were you I would avoid commenting on this subject, you do not understand it on many levels. Yes, really. You do not. And most of you cannot except for the engineers and some sharp people who frequent these forums. Most of you simply do not have the foundation to begin understanding the problems that stem from the technology and are sputtering absolute nonsense - and you do not have the foundation to understand this very sentence and how it is true, and probably find it insulting.

Ok, let me repeat what I have said before.

You only need one person with the know-how to create a means for cheating. Distributing it is easy. Software or instructions on how to cheat can be dispursed through the Internet or however. To continue the usage of a cheat, it would be wise to keep it contained within a team or whatever small group.

There are two main types of cheater software in my mind. One kind can defeat every existing and anticipated trigger test and the other has adjustments that can be dialed in to change its behavior ie: the misunderstood topic of the "debounce" setting which to me is nearly equivalent to a "turbo" setting because that is what they really are on all the popular cheater markers and boards but people are too dumb to realize this because there is a different label. A rose by any other name. The first type of software none of you will probably have access to and is the kind that will not be caught. The second is a description of popular boards and software available for public consumption which is easily caught even moreso with the new testing machines.

I will not explain how this is done, but I can set up my marker such that the cheater board is in my loader and I toggle it on and off by licking my hopper lid. Do not think for one second that I am joking. Licking two metal leads will complete a circuit.

Go ahead and check my gun! Trace my PCB! Reverse engineer the software on my security locked microchip which does not have the cheater code on it in the first place! The good news is you could probably outsource the project to electrical and computer engineers from India or South Africa if you would like to save on costs. You would have to seize my marker to do this and study it - too bad it is my hopper that is actually the illegal component. I am sure people would love the NPPL stealing your marker for a few months and shipping it to India for investigation as a form of random check.

You do not even need to use software to enduce electronic cheating. What is needed is a method to change the electronic logic which is what software does but is not a requirement to have software to do this.

New testing devices can curtail some of the cheating but it will be ineffective against those with access to markers purposely setup to defeat the system. They are out there - can you guess who is using them?

Well there actually is a solution to the cheating problem - a saline solution and a bucket.

[Meph]

Can sum this up down to a trend I've sort of noticed during the years.

Back in say... late 90's and start of new millenium. What was the max anybody shot? About 10-13 balls per second. Even if there was a 'full auto' switch on the marker or a turbo-ramp they still couldn't outshoot the hopper.

Suddenly Halo came along. And Egg2. What happened? That paint limiting factor suddenly was broken, and the marker could cycle faster with paint keeping up. From a limited 12bps now to 18bps, then newer technology and programming pumping it up to now 35bps.


Not exactly a "solution" but damn closest and easiest to enforce since no special coding would have to be re-done on markers. Have a hopper limited back to gravity, or a 13bps force feed (making it pointless almost). And voila. Who cares if they ramp, that ramp is no faster than what everybody else can shoot any ways!


But it'll never happen. Politics + Money in the tournament world have corrupt it beyond repair. And since the players try and take as much leverage they can get via having their sponsors make them special cheater boards... rather than standing up for what's right with the 1-finger salute to those greedy promoters. Nothing will ever change. The players are the ones who really have the ability to make change, but they will never do it.

[GoatBoy]

Funny post Tapper... of course, I think licking your hopper mid-game might be a dead giveaway... Unless you were to develop a hopper that used a tasty candy shell...

I thought about what you said with the logic. I think I have a vague idea of what you're talking about. Much better than anything I have previously come up with.




So, you start by agreeing with my base principle. Makes the rest of your post which seems to vehemently opposed to my suggestions rather bizarre. The most cheating is from average paintballers using the cheats built into the standard software and failures in design of the hardware. Not big budget teams with access programming, development and (willing to cheat) factory support.


Here, let me clear the confusion up for you then. We call them 'script kiddies' in the computer world.

And this thread was started specifically in regards to cheats presumably coming from companies. Although I would say that they don't need to.


Auditing software and hardware isn’t such an onerous task. The Angel had (has?) an encapsulated board, standards could require a flashable chip, and it would be a once per production change exercise for manufacturers.
Granted, I added authorised boards to the list after you (and others) added the idea “hiding a circuit somewhere is easy”. I’d like to see that in practice if code needed to be flashed.


Not only did you add that, but you added a page full of other notable additions to this rather simple little task. We've already said code doesn't need to be flashed.


Sorry, I’ll go back and add a sarcasm smiley. But, the main attack against technological enforcement of the rules has been people saying “It’s easy to develop a cheat”. Like the “RF board in your crotch” BS. That’s not that simple or cheap to develop. Need someone who knows circuits, programming, and be allowed to have any board you want in your marker.
Checking markers won’t be simple. Nor will it necessarily be cheap. But it needs doing and the manufacturers could be held for the cost by charging them to have their equipment approved.

We have names for people who know circuits and programming. They're called electrical engineers. I happen to be one. Tapper might be one also. Or something with a physics background?

And finally, we see that it's not so simple, and probably not so cheap, to check these "piddling" paintball guns.


Well, lot’s of small minds here then. Either complaining about the rules, their enforcement, the cheating, and how impossible it is to stop cheating is about all you hear. Precious little in the way of suggestions of what rules can be added or how enforcement can be improved. So far you’ve concentrated on mocking my suggestions. Got any positive suggestions of your own to contribute?

From what I can tell, most people, not just me, are ripping your posts up. I didn't start "mocking" you until you decided to engage in the "garbage" of my post. You can roll your eyes, but it's only because you haven't come back with anything effective. Maybe you should stop giving us material to work with.


You’re last post said very little. It certainly didn’t propose any alternative way to control the game. The workarounds you suggest are laughable at this time because the cheating isn’t THAT far advanced yet. Even if it was, if software was flashed and boards were encapsulated, out of spec boards and all the other garbage would be caught with a single inspection of the winning teams guns.

I like that rider at the end... I think you emphasized the wrong word though, maybe it should have been "cheating isn't that far advanced YET."

Again with the software. Oh, and now we're talking about encapsulating boards! Whatever happened to putting a big sticker on the board? You realize that encapsulating boards is just a fancy tamper-proof sticker, right?



Well, gee. If we can’t curb human desire I guess we better embrace cheating and throw out the rule book. No? Why use the technology of the chronographs to monitor FPS? Why bother looking for cars speeding if they can use radar detectors to slow down and avoid a ticket? Your point was?

While you talk of throwing out the rule book, you might want to check the thread about the NXL rule change. Why did the rule change (if indeed it's true)? Because people wanted it that way.

Reading comprehension time: I never said human desire can't be curbed. Plenty of people still speed every day. Try another analogy; there are actually ones that could help your argument, but this one doesn't work.

The chronographs that I'm around are used by people who want to follow the rules, and I'm thankful that they're there for that purpose. With cheats like dwell time and such on these boards, they won't catch people trying to really cheat, unless they develop something better. The only way to do this so far is in-game on-gun monitoring. You know, that whole "invasive garbage" argument.


No, you see, I don't think you read the post with my "invasive garbage" in it. Either that, or you didn't understand it.

I'm going to space it out so you can see it a little better.












We have an atmosphere which is way too conducive to this sort of behavior. The tools? They're plentiful, I think you'd do well to stop arguing this. People like cheaters, and they want to cheat. Companies are aware of this. And if they're not explicitly supporting the behavior, they're tacitly doing so by not doing anything to help us out.

If you really want it to stop, this has to change. And it won't change by forcing some really poorly thought out overly complex yet sadly ineffective technical scheme onto players and companies that refuse to conform in the first place.

The solution is to create an atmosphere where cheating is NOT tolerated. Everything has to follow that, not the other way around. It should be badly ostracized, and if a company contributes to the problem then you should walk away from them as well. All too many times I hear people complaining about really flagrantly wrong things that happen at fields, yet they keep going back and giving them their money.

It's a tough problem.














That’s so simple it’s laughable. Ever try to open an electronic device that has a “don’t tamper” sticker around it?

Yikes. I'm going to assume this was a rhetorical question.



Software often comes packaged with a seal that proves it’s genuine.
Pull the seal off and the image is destroyed. Go ahead and try to open a hard drive.
Or how about the little stickers they put on the side of rental VHS cassettes to make sure you haven’t messed them up.
Or, the really low-tech stickers they put on large items at the grocery store to show you’ve paid for them.
Making something tamperproof is easy and VERY difficult to get around. Going back to the racing analogy, each race circuit has numerous items that need to be checked and computer boxes and controls that need sealed. Simple stickers and tags are sufficient to stop race teams with huge budgets from playing with certain parts.
If a control board is enclosed, a sticker with a serial number just has to be placed over to point where the enclosure halves join.
But, why should I go on. Seems the general concensus is to let electronic markers do whatever they want. :rolleyes:

By the way: Google "tamper resistant sticker tag" and see how many thousands of hits you get. They've got tamperresistant hologram marking on baseball cards for cripes sake. :bounce:


I dunno, I've pulled a lot of stickers off in tact. Most of the examples that you cited (barring the racing example, I'll admit I have no experience with that) I HAVE pulled off in tact. Hell I could just destroy the product in order to carefully take the sticker off and put it on something else if need be. Yeah, great, it's got a serial number on it. And it will have that exact serial number on it when I put it on the new device. I'll look into the racing thing if I have time, it does sound interesting. And I will google it, but you need to keep in mind the application you are trying to protect, and really think if a tamper resistant sticker's going to offer real protection.

On top of that, a tamper resistant sticker doesn't necessarily need to be destroyed or removed to be circumvented for our purposes.

[Brophog]

People like cheaters, and they want to cheat. Companies are aware of this. And if they're not explicitly supporting the behavior, they're tacitly doing so by not doing anything to help us out.

Woah. I stayed out of this so far, due to the sheer ridiculousness of it all. Have we gone so far as a country as to make the above statement true. Think about the ramifications, not just in paintball, of that particular statement.

[FallNAngel]

It would take almost nothing to do something like this. Hell, I can. Yes, something in glove or crotch could work. A radio frequency switch, that switches the code rom cheat to non cheat or semi to full auto, and you trigger it by hidden buttons on your pocket or crotch or whatever

..which would require modification to the board... which would be seen during inspection.


I will not explain how this is done, but I can set up my marker such that the cheater board is in my loader and I toggle it on and off by licking my hopper lid. Do not think for one second that I am joking. Licking two metal leads will complete a circuit.

Go ahead and check my gun! Trace my PCB! Reverse engineer the software on my security locked microchip which does not have the cheater code on it in the first place! The good news is you could probably outsource the project to electrical and computer engineers from India or South Africa if you would like to save on costs. You would have to seize my marker to do this and study it - too bad it is my hopper that is actually the illegal component. I am sure people would love the NPPL stealing your marker for a few months and shipping it to India for investigation as a form of random check.

OK... so you have this circuit in your hopper that you activate by licking it. That I buy. Somehow, that's going to have to modify the logic on the board somehow. On inspection, I would certainly hope they'd notice there'd wires running from the gun to the loader or a RF receiver attached to the board.

Standardized boards that are reflashable, are the way to go IMO. It's the easiest way to make sure that all of the boards are all the same and have the same code.

[Enemy]

ok ive read all of this and i know im not really well informed yet i do know enough so here goes...

how hard would it be to make a machine that fires a trigger x amount of times...if marker fires y amount of times then there is something wrong!!! nppl started this but they had a main focus more for ramping velocity then ramping firing. its hard to tell but skilled people know when they are pulling the trigger and when they arent the line gets blurred now adays cuz what we are used to be one shot one pull is infact more than that.. debounce is turbo mode guess who really started turbo mode, i believe it was sp in the shocker turbo where they noticed a switch would send offmultiple signals off of one pull up until then those bouncing signals were ignored but sp programed the boards to recognize those signals as another pull and fire the marker!!!under the current rules it was legal because the switch was being actuated bye the triggers bounce so there wasnt much done to stop it and the shockers were capped like all markers at 13 bps. ok i also know of cheater boards that before the game a preprogramed series of taps on the trigger or switch would turn on the cheat and then if the marker set unfired for a certain time the boarde would revert back to its legal mode..when i ref at my field i make it a point to shoot everything that comes throw the cronny if the owner will allow me ive caught e a5s on response mode and i told the guy to turn it off after 30 minutes of arguing my buddy checked the gun and said i was crazy cuz he didnt know what he was looking for i did..its all good the a5 saw little action as i gunned him down almost every round after that. the fact is too many people dont know what to look/feel for i got no help from anyone but myself and that didnt help matters at all!! now cheater boards are here and i do believe that dm4s may very well have a simple one stock on them as it is very easy to rip a consistent stream out of one of those and i myself hadent really walked any other marker in my life!! my new xmag is hard to rip a cosistant stream out of but with practice im getting better hmm maybe it is one shot one pull!! no all of the enforcement out there is a moot point the realliaty of the subject is that governing bodies need to start taking away cheater products that will help bye making cheats less accessable just like hacks are today..but there will still be cheaters out there so the next way at looking at it is if they are going to do it to me then i will do it back and that attitude is where we are at today so until the tourneys start finding methods of catching all cheats then everyone will have to accept that they are there and play on trying to help in anyone they can to find a way to stop it...thats all i have to say goodnight all

[teufelhunden]

What? Cheating with most boards/markers is as simple as settings and trigger adjustments. There's no skill in cheating with what's allowed on the field these days.


Uh, duhhhh? That's not cheating well, that's playing with your board. Cheating well is taking it onto the field and not getting caught.

[Tapper]

..which would require modification to the board... which would be seen during inspection.



OK... so you have this circuit in your hopper that you activate by licking it. That I buy. Somehow, that's going to have to modify the logic on the board somehow. On inspection, I would certainly hope they'd notice there'd wires running from the gun to the loader or a RF receiver attached to the board.

Standardized boards that are reflashable, are the way to go IMO. It's the easiest way to make sure that all of the boards are all the same and have the same code.

Hey goober. Reread my post and review how I noted how it is not necessary at all to use cheater software on the marker's board to cheat which was the point of my reference to an illegal loader - one of many many obscure ways you can cheat. This demonstrates the limited understanding of the masses that I mentioned earlier wasting our time on this subject by regurgitating the same misconceptions.

[Tapper]

..which would require modification to the board... which would be seen during inspection.


Agreed. An inspection done by outsourced labor force in India or perhaps Sri Lanka, take your pick. And the cheat does not have to be located on the board. The first problem is you will not even know where to look. The second is if you did you'd need an expert to figure it out and it could take him an unpractical amount of time.

[Tapper]

OK... so you have this circuit in your hopper that you activate by licking it. That I buy. Somehow, that's going to have to modify the logic on the board somehow. On inspection, I would certainly hope they'd notice there'd wires running from the gun to the loader or a RF receiver attached to the board.


It's called an Intellifeed cable.

[Jack & Coke]

What? Cheating with most boards/markers is as simple as settings and trigger adjustments. There's no skill in cheating with what's allowed on the field these days.

SlartyBartFast is correct.

[SlartyBartFast]

I'm positive that I could build it and keep it hidden. Unless your going to confiscate ALL my equipment and clothes, I'd be able to do it. If I can figure out how to do this, imagine what someone who is actually on a "pro" team and wants to cheat can do. ;)
Um, still no. I wouldn’t believe it until you built it. Just have to look at the various “Next Great Idea” threads with all the various Rube Goldberg (http://www.rube-goldberg.com/html/gallery.htm :)) devices that paintballers come up with and insist are simple to build and perform various miracles.
To put down proposed rule changes, it isn’t a valid argument to come up with farfetched (or even plausible) NEW cheats. Rules are designed to stop a specific form of current cheating or unfair play, or to regulate undesirable or unclear situations. Someone could come up with a radio controlled baseball or football. Racing teams could use encoded radio signals to defeat rules against in-car telemetry. Olympic athletes and their doctors/trainers come up with new more difficult to detect drug regimens. Doesn’t mean you don’t regulate the equipment and drug use to a reasonable and enforceable (and possibly ever changing) degree.
IMO valid arguments against a rule are whether or not it can be effectively implemented and enforced and what its impact on the enforcement of other rules and their enforcement. Can you enforce against the use of steroid X? Yes? Then regulate against it. Can you make it clear that the spirit of the rule is NO drug use? Yes? So write it in and add every drug possible to the specific ban as they are discovered.
The BIGGEST failure of all paintball tournament series is the implementation of unenforceable and vague rules. Once they’re lax for one rule, it opens the door to be lax on another. If one rule is open to interpretation, all rules are open to interpretation. Once you allow one group to ‘push the boundary’, all teams will push and every rule will be tested to its limits.
Tournaments can’t even enforce their standing rules on elimination, the definition of obvious/inobvious hits, or how a player is expected to behave when hit. Playing-on used to be when a ref had to call you out after an obvious hit. Now the only time you’d be called for playing on is if you refused to listen to the ref saying you’re out or you shot from the deadbox. It is clear in EVERY rule book that it is the responsibility of the player to stop playing and check themselves after any ‘obvious’ hit. Yet even in friendly play these days you find dorks that won’t leave the field until a ref says they’re out. Even if they’re gogged. If a ref sees a player hit in the chest off the break and the player then superman dives into a bunker the hits may be removed and the player may not be able to be eliminated on the basis of a paintsplat. But, a ref could eliminate them for not calling themselves out after FEELING the hit according to rules 10.01 and 10.02 of the PSP rules as it is NOT obvious that the paint must break if you consider just those two rules and that could be possible as the section is not clearly defined as simple definitions and that eliminations are in fact supposed to be determined by rules 10.2. But, failing to stop and check for a hit as soon as an obvious hit occurs IS a clear and undefendable contravention of rule 10.05. Failing to call a paintcheck is a clear contravention of 10.06. Even the quarter sized mark is NOT applicable if the ref sees the paintball hit and is only looking for confirmation of a break. The rules only say ‘generally’ and more in reference to when the ref does not see the impact prior to checking for a break. When was the last time any of these rules were ever enforced rigorously? Heck, I’d like to know if some of the rules have ever been enforced. :rolleyes:
I tried to get interest in a revised ‘AO’ rule book to straighten out the poorly organised and useless pidgin-legalese used in what passes as rule books on the tournament scene. I was roundly ignored, and everyone just argued the current rules were fine. But, numerous threads and arguments were started at the same time with widely varying interpretations of different rules and how they are supposed to be enforced.
While I believe the enforcement, clarification, addition to and even elimination of CURRENT rules is far more important, the discussion of electronic guns does bring up additional considerations. Currently, cheating with an electro is possible by any noob 10 year old playing with off-the-shelf unmodified hardware and software. If your hardware or software isn’t up to your liking, you can purchase boards that will accomplish ANYTHING you want with little in the way to prove to organisers or field owners that the board is REALLY “tournament locked”.
Barring even more technologically advanced, financed, and determined cheaters, there are four very specific issues. Poor “off-the-shelf” software, illegal software, poor “off-the-shelf” hardware, illegal hardware.
Some of the problems could actually be solved with non technological rules and enforcement. Limited paint, enforcement of overshooting rules, minimum trigger pull weights, limiting hopper feed rate (revys or non-agitated only), could all level the playing field and render technological cheats ineffective or counter productive.
Even if a technological solution was to be used, thinking back on my propositions, a software check/flashing could be completely unnecessary.
Encapsulating and applying a serialised tamperproof seal to approved software and hardware combinations would be sufficient to greatly control the two issues above concerning “off-the-shelf” problems. The outright illegal hardware and/or software may still be present but would then require collusion between the cheaters and the manufacturer and/or tournament organisers. Or, they’d have to be able to counterfeit the seals required and fit everything into a factory enclosure.
A check for intact seals (and recording the serial numbers, perhaps by barcode or RFID) before an event would be initial sufficient. Then at the end of the event, the boards could be checked for manufacturers serial number.
Until PLAYERS demand professional officiating, it’ll never happen.

[SlartyBartFast]

This cheating topic was talked about in detail in a couple of threads a few months back. If I remember, you are one of the people that gives me a headache reading your posts. If I were you I would avoid commenting on this subject, you do not understand it on many levels. Yes, really. You do not. And most of you cannot except for the engineers and some sharp people who frequent these forums. Most of you simply do not have the foundation to begin understanding the problems that stem from the technology and are sputtering absolute nonsense - and you do not have the foundation to understand this very sentence and how it is true, and probably find it insulting.

I don't find it insulting. I find your grasp of my understanding and capabilities laughable. :rolleyes:

I guess my four years of study for a bachelor's of engineering (Mechanical Engineering - Automotive Design), participation in many student competitions from robotics to building off-road racers, learning computer programming from the age of about 15 and programming in Pascal, FORTRAN, Assembler, C, and various scripts, playing paintball since about 1989/90 and 10+ years of working in the the rail transportation industry dealing with very hightech hydraulic, pneumatic, electric, electronic, and computer controlled and networked systems and using scripting and SGML/XML technologies doesn't give me any background that might be applicable to discussing the subject. :rolleyes:

You're the one getting the headache. So who's not qualified? :tard:

[SlartyBartFast]

It's called an Intellifeed cable.

Which would have to be used in conjunction with a board that was designed to communicate with the board in the hopper. So, you've got to hide the USD/Serial/SPI or other communication port connections between the fake intellifeed cable and the cheater board controller in the gun.

Yup, it's easy to do. :p

[hitech]

Um, still no. I wouldn’t believe it until you built it.

No problem, you don't know me. Read the warpig article (http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/electronics/basic_stamp) for yourself. You can see for yourself how easy it would be. BTW, I'm not going to build it as I don't want to waste the money.



Rules are designed to stop a specific form of current cheating or unfair play, or to regulate undesirable or unclear situations.

Sure, but to attempt to implement a costly, difficult and time consuming method of rule enforcement that requires cooperation of many companies that is easily circumvented just doesn't make sense. Besides the fact that under the current environment it will never happen.



Tournaments can’t even enforce their standing rules on elimination, the definition of obvious/unobvious hits, or how a player is expected to behave when hit. Playing-on used to be when a ref had to call you out after an obvious hit...

One of my pet peeves. The rule should be that if you continue to shoot after being marked you are penalized. Make the player responsible for determining if they are eliminated. It's been done before and I believe it was working well. If you don't like that, you could add SPECIFIC places that are considered "unobvious" and only require calling for a paint check.



Some of the problems could actually be solved with non technological rules and enforcement... enforcement of overshooting rules...

As I said above, THAT needs to be done. It is probably the easiest way to start curbing cheating. And it is a safety issue. Combine it with making the player responsible for calling themselves out and you have an effecting, easily "doable" start at curbing cheating. The problem is (as you probably realize) that not enough people are interested in curbing cheating. :(



Encapsulating and applying a serialized tamperproof seal to approved software and hardware combinations would be sufficient to greatly control the two issues above concerning “off-the-shelf” problems.

That might be workable, but the above two ideas need to come FIRST. If those can't even be done, who can we expect more complicated ideas to ever work. :rolleyes:


We don't really disagree all that much. :cheers:

[SlartyBartFast]

Read the warpig article for yourself. You can see for yourself how easy it would be. BTW, I'm not going to build it as I don't want to waste the money.
I’ve read the warpig article and done a lot of reading about BASICStamps, PICs., and Atmel Microcontrollers.
While it may seem simple, I still don’t think you’d get away with it. All you’re going to do is create a fluctuating magnetic field with a coil? How big a coil and how much power do you need to affect the HES in the right way?
It might also be a little obvious something’s up when you gun goes full auto when you change to your shooting hand. Or, that it continues to fire long after you’ve stopped pulling the trigger but only until you do something to your glove. :D
But, as I pointed out previously, the issue isn’t the many (implausible) ways you could still cheat. The issue is how players currently cheat and how to catch them. Put a clause in the rules stating that use of an external board or device to fire the gun or otherwise contravene the rules results in the team being ejected from the tournament without reimbursement. Are you willing to risk a malfunction or other detection of the cheat then? How about forfeiting ALL points for the entire season?
Heck, you don’t even need to make that rule specific to boards or software. Just make the rule that contravention of the trigger pull rule results in ejection from the tournament (without reimbursement).
You're probably right. We don't really disagree on much (except perhaps the definition of 'easy' :rofl: ).
What really gets me worked up is that we had more technology and oversight running local KubKar (Pinewood Derby) races in the Scouts than paintball has controls and checks for equipment used. :tard:

[AGDlover]

ok to everyone who believes the electos are mainly good for turnys, I'm running my all mech mag in major turnys this year starting with chi open. so think about that so really its not about speed its about useing your set up correctly.

[hitech]

BTW, I'm continuing to attempt to convince you it is easy because it's slow around here lately. This is about the only thread that is interesting. ;)


While it may seem simple, I still don’t think you’d get away with it. All you’re going to do is create a fluctuating magnetic field with a coil?

Not exactly. I would build a small table that would allow for a few seconds of pulses at varied timings. This would give the "appearance" of manual trigger operation. Especially considering what players are getting away with now, I don't think anyone is going to notice that the pattern repeats itself every few seconds. ;)



How big a coil and how much power do you need to affect the HES in the right way?

Granted, my understanding of HES specifics is a little limited, I doubt it would take much. Especially if the source is right up against the HES housing.



It might also be a little obvious something’s up when you gun goes full auto when you change to your shooting hand. Or, that it continues to fire long after you’ve stopped pulling the trigger but only until you do something to your glove. :D

A small membrane switch in a finger would toggle it on an off. Changing the position of your hand would also stop it as it needs to be close to the HES. The "pattern table" should keep it from seeming like fullauto.



Are you willing to risk a malfunction or other detection of the cheat then? How about forfeiting ALL points for the entire season?

Well, I'm not willing at all, but that apparently wouldn't stop others. I know someone who played FULLAUTO at a MAJOR tournament. He was tired of getting hammered with bouncing markers that were effectively fullauto anyway. He was willing to risk whatever that would have cost him. How said is it that he got away with it.



What really gets me worked up is that we had more technology and oversight running local KubKar (Pinewood Derby) races in the Scouts than paintball has controls and checks for equipment used.

Now there is an understatement if I've ever heard one! :hail:

[SlartyBartFast]

What's really sad, is the 10 year old Cub Scouts whined less too. :rofl:

Mind you, the parents were always much worse. :rolleyes: :rofl:


PS: Where'd ya go Tapper? :sleeping: Not willing to back up your putdown/insult or live up to your error? :nono:

Or is your brain hurting too much? :rofl: :dance:


I will now take a selfimposed timeout to atone for the overuse of smilies and the horror of using bananaman...

[hitech]

What's really sad, is the 10 year old Cub Scouts whined less too. :rofl:

Mind you, the parents were always much worse. :rolleyes: :rofl:


Yeah, when my neice was doing pinewood derbys they ended up having a separate "fathers" race. :rofl:

[SlartyBartFast]

Yeah, when my neice was doing pinewood derbys they ended up having a separate "fathers" race. :rofl:

This is really off-topic now (but nobody else seems to be left in the room).

We really ticked people off. One Year I won second place. Next year my brother won first place. Year after, my brother won first place with the same car AND second place with a new car. Year after that, won first place with the same car again and third place with a car that was made by cutting the block into a wedge and painting it (a couple hours work and the time for the paint to dry). :clap:

It's all in where you place your weight and attach your wheels. ;)

[hitech]

I never really got to race when I was a kid. The first time we (my dad an me) went we took a car that followed the rules. Unfortunatly for us, that was the ONLY car that followed the rules! :eek: That experence soured us both. :cuss:

The more things change, the more they stay the same...

[Tapper]

I don't find it insulting. I find your grasp of my understanding and capabilities laughable. :rolleyes:

I guess my four years of study for a bachelor's of engineering (Mechanical Engineering - Automotive Design), participation in many student competitions from robotics to building off-road racers, learning computer programming from the age of about 15 and programming in Pascal, FORTRAN, Assembler, C, and various scripts, playing paintball since about 1989/90 and 10+ years of working in the the rail transportation industry dealing with very hightech hydraulic, pneumatic, electric, electronic, and computer controlled and networked systems and using scripting and SGML/XML technologies doesn't give me any background that might be applicable to discussing the subject. :rolleyes:

You're the one getting the headache. So who's not qualified? :tard:

It is a pity that with all the time and money you invested, your brain does not perform any better and you are unable to apply what you have studied. With this in mind, my line of argumentation will be lost on you as well - so I write this for the entertainment of others. Do you realize that what "qualifications" you have mentioned are trivial and not pertinent to the subject in discussion? If it makes you feel better I started programming when I was 3 and knew all of the languages you mentioned before I was 15. Also, one of my degrees is more pertinent to this topic than yours. But unlike you, I understand why these things are not worthy of mention and are irrelevant for determining one's qualifications and judgment on this topic. It does not change how right I am, and it does not make you less wrong.

[Miscue]

It is a pity that with all the time and money you invested, your brain does not perform any better and you are unable to apply what you have studied. With this in mind, my line of argumentation will be lost on you as well - so I write this for the entertainment of others. Do you realize that what "qualifications" you have mentioned are trivial and not pertinent to the subject in discussion? If it makes you feel better I started programming when I was 3 and knew all of the languages you mentioned before I was 15. Also, one of my degrees is more pertinent to this topic than yours. But unlike you, I understand why these things are not worthy of mention and are irrelevant for determining one's qualifications and judgment on this topic. It does not change how right I am, and it does not make you less wrong.

Ok... I understand the point you are making and I won't say whether I agree with it or not, but I believe I understand it. However, I've already warned you on being combative with AOers and I'm going to call you on disruptive behavior/flaming like I warned you about. You can easily say the same thing without being uncivil.

3-Day Ban.

[swat150]

Back to the point about guns ramping like mad. It has never seize to anoy me with these new electronic guns. Ramping as you would say up to 33 bps. Its stupid, unfair, and should not be allowed on feilds. I go to my local feild and see new players playing with tippman 98s, getting wailed on by the cheap *** guns. I have some potential talent as you may say. Hand me one of these 33bps and I could rock your shorts, however me being a lower end middle class junior cannot afford one of these guns, and is stuck with a pirahna. I am so annoyed at these companys these days making these ridiculous guns. Alot of our feilds new customers turn away from paintball after just on day of it, all because of these cheap *** guns.

[FallNAngel]

If it makes you feel better I started programming when I was 3

I find that very hard to believe.

[Miscue]

Um, still no. I wouldn’t believe it until you built it.

Referring to shooting the EMag with an external magnetic field source... I actually did something like this when I was looking at the noise problem on the EMag. With a fully assembled EMag, I also had a bare EMag board plugged to a battery pack, with a solenoid attached to it. I was doing this so I could experiment with how far the solenoid had to be from the HES to not interfere with it and make the marker fire. If I fired my loose board, the marker would also fire if the solenoid was close enough.

I'd imagine all you need is a small battery, copper wire that you coil, and a means for pulsing the signal to create a glove cheat. The most expensive component of this would probably be the glove.

/me might just go pick up a few car batteries and a loom of copper cable to see what happens. :D

[GoatBoy]

Woah. I stayed out of this so far, due to the sheer ridiculousness of it all. Have we gone so far as a country as to make the above statement true. Think about the ramifications, not just in paintball, of that particular statement.

Yes.


Miscue: neato... although I have to wonder why you need something to pulse the solenoid... couldn't you just use the inherent bounce of whatever switch you were already going to use?

[Brophog]

That's scary, don't you think.

Guess not.

[GoatBoy]

That's scary, don't you think.

Guess not.


Yes.



Do you not believe it, or do you not want to believe it?

[lamby]

MIscue.. First I think you were wrong for banning tapper. He (in my eyes) was just stating a fact that a cert does not mean crap with out the logic to use it

Second, I have seen some really small oscillators (1/16 inch surface mount) that would be great to pulse your "coil"

Shartly... I promise you this If I wanted a gloved based cheat I can do it without a problem. This is not complex programming or electronics we are talking about.

If you can not figure it out fine.... the are other that can and have already...

I can put this tech inside a "wedding ring" If I wanted to spend the money to do so.

Edit to correct a speculation******

[Miscue]

MIscue.. First I think you were wrong for banning tapper. He (in my eyes) was just stating a fact that a cert does not mean crap with out the logic to use it

Second, I have seen some really small oscillators (1/16 inch surface mount) that would be great to pulse your "coil"

Shartly... I promise you this If I wanted a gloved based cheat I can do it without a problem. This is not complex programming or electronics we are talking about.

If you can not figure it out fine.... the are other that can and have already...

I can put this tech inside a "wedding ring" If I wanted to spend the money to do so.

Edit to correct a speculation******

Well, he said some other things that I was referring to... that I caught before he deleted it. There is a missing post, and I didn't quote it.

An oscillator is precisely what I had in mind, actually.

[Brophog]

Yes.



Do you not believe it, or do you not want to believe it?


I'd like to not believe it, but you're probably right. It's just sad, that's all.

[SlartyBartFast]

It is a pity that with all the time and money you invested, your brain does not perform any better and you are unable to apply what you have studied. With this in mind, my line of argumentation will be lost on you as well - so I write this for the entertainment of others. Do you realize that what "qualifications" you have mentioned are trivial and not pertinent to the subject in discussion? If it makes you feel better I started programming when I was 3 and knew all of the languages you mentioned before I was 15. Also, one of my degrees is more pertinent to this topic than yours. But unlike you, I understand why these things are not worthy of mention and are irrelevant for determining one's qualifications and judgment on this topic. It does not change how right I am, and it does not make you less wrong.

While your posts seem to prove that you are certainly a pompous prig and think very highly of yourself, your resorting to ad hominem attacks shows nothing to support your self image. :tard:

What magical experience/knowledge do you have that makes you so eminently qualified then? Or are you one of those mental midgets that just figures that because someone refuses to think and view the world in exactly the same way as you do it MUST be because you're somehow blessed with omnipotence? Using that logic, it could just as well be you that's delusional.

Seems to remind me of a pompous dink who couldn't argue his way out of a wet paper bag but was quick to claim no one could possibly understand him or was qualified to argue with him. Don't make boards for a multimillion dollar company operating from an empty lot do you Tapper? :p

Not withstanding the fact that I still think enforcement of the basic rules is required first: Easy test to stop the coil in a glove, just subject all hardware to external magnetic fields before it can be approved for tournament use. :rolleyes:

--edit--
Looks like I won't be hearing from you for a couple of days Tapper. Take care of your headaches. :cool:

[SlartyBartFast]

MIscue.. First I think you were wrong for banning tapper. He (in my eyes) was just stating a fact that a cert does not mean crap with out the logic to use it

Well, if you want to attack me on logic go right ahead. But you gotta prove you can use it yourself.
Tapper's last posts were more like brain farts than anything else. I don't understand something? All right smart guy, point it out and use your logic to prove why your viewpoint is right.
Take the insults, personally directed derogatory comments, and inuendo off down to the preschool playground.

[billmi]

I'd imagine all you need is a small battery, copper wire that you coil, and a means for pulsing the signal to create a glove cheat. The most expensive component of this would probably be the glove.


The battery itself might not even be necessary.

A coil in the palm of the glove would have a pulse inducted into it by the magnetic field of the solenoid coil - wire that to a cpoil in the mid-finger of the glover, and it will generate a corresponding magnetic pulse lined up with the HES. It would be a passive way to trigger the HES with the solenoid pulse - if it's strong enough.

[SlartyBartFast]

I'm always amused that the vast majority of the posts in every topic that complains about cheating is about how to better cheat and not how to make the game better and level the playing field. :rolleyes:

Seems most players here are resigned to accept cheating where it stands and to go along with it.

[billmi]

It would take almost nothing to do something like this. Hell, I can. Yes, something in glove or crotch could work. A radio frequency switch, that switches the code rom cheat to non cheat or semi to full auto, and you trigger it by hidden buttons on your pocket or crotch or whatever

That's complex and unnecessary. Having radio receiver circuitry on the board is a visible giveaway that it's designed to cheat.

I wrote a cheater program for my LCD Rainmaker in 1999 to demonstrate that this would become an issue and why (and no, I've never used it on a field - only to demonstrate that software cheats would one day become a problem.) When you tap "shave and a haircut" on the trigger it then fires full auto until you release the trigger. Because you can't download the software out of the board and decompile it the *only* way to catch this cheat is if you happen to know what the activation code is. That same tactic has been used successfully by at least one pro team (I've used the board and a player told me under condition of anonymity about it - and I can pretty much guarantee it's not who you think) in years past to unlock rate of fire ramping modes. If the modes revert to true semi-auto after a couple of seconds of not firing, there is no way a "trigger robot" or any other technology can catch it.

As for flashing boards before players go on the field, I've been told by more than one manufacturer that they'd never allow anything like that. They are concerned over liability issues with field flashable boards, where they could be sued for an injury caused by a paintgun being run by software they didn't write. As for encapsulated boards to prove it's got authentic software limiting software cheats to only "factory" teams - that's great, but when you get to the NXL and the majority of pro NPPL teams, you're talking about all "factory teams" and in many cases also teams owned by the companies that own the tournament series in which they are competing. When you get to the lower levels, there's less inscentive to ban teams from a series or do anything more than kick them out from a single event, because if they don't come back, there's less revenue in entry fees.

For the pranksters - it would indeed be entertaining to see the reaction of team managers, if someone (who is not event connected to the teams involved) stood near the netting pointing a small directional antenna at a player and pressing buttons on a small box connected to it, and refusing to comment if questioned.

Years ago, an Aftershock player showed up with a toggle switch mounted on his Autococker shroud - with two labels - "Hi" and "Low." Bob Long went straight to the refs with an objection. The switch wasn't wired to anything.

[billmi]

Having a "ref" randomly video tape players with a high-speed video camera and review it for extra shots would catch all bps increasing cheats and be easier to implement. A device that would mechanically fire a marker and check for bounce would seem like a minimum. Even THAT hasn't happened yet. :(


Not even bounce, I've seen folks shooting auto-response at pro level events that way with an NTSC camera. Anymore you'd need a high-speed rig though.

[GoatBoy]

Not withstanding the fact that I still think enforcement of the basic rules is required first: Easy test to stop the coil in a glove, just subject all hardware to external magnetic fields before it can be approved for tournament use. :rolleyes:


That's funny, Miscue just got you to include a clause that banned all x/emags or anything with a HES in your growing super scheme to eliminate cheating.



As far as Tapper is concerned, I didn't see the deleted post that got him banned. But I'd say you just crossed the line yourself. Of course, that's not for me to judge.

Tapper wasn't banned because he was factually wrong about anything that he said, and that includes statements regarding your background's relevance to what he was alluding to.

To put it simply, in one section he was talking about debounce, and means of bypassing, disabling, or simply interfering with the function of debounce. And it doesn't even have to be trigger debounce.

He's talking about some more advanced stuff. I prefer to stay low-tech and talk about simple things, like defeating little things like encapsulation and stickers. Decapping boards is an engineering co-op level job. The order of complexity that you included to perform encapsulation, make it practical yet still effective within the confines of a gun, and actually be able to properly check for tampering, is through the roof.

Other people have referred to the lack of practicality of your scheme.

And in the end, all your brainstorming can't fix the base philosophical dilemma that we face.




What you are proposing is neither technically, nor practically, nor philosophically sound. How much more wrong can you be? (Yes, that's a rhetorical question; I don't really want to find out.)

[billmi]

Seems most players here are resigned to accept cheating where it stands and to go along with it.

I disagree with that - I definitely think more needs to be done to address technical based (i.e. rigged equipment vs. what a player does on the field like wipe a hit) cheating. What I disagree with is the claim that it would be very simple to deal with, or what some have claimed is that it has been solved with devices like the NPPL's trigger bot.

[GoatBoy]

Not even bounce, I've seen folks shooting auto-response at pro level events that way with an NTSC camera. Anymore you'd need a high-speed rig though.


I can sort of understand hi-tech's idea.

The best (only?) way you can detect these cheats is to catch them in the act, in a recorded fashion. You must record behavior, and record results.

For velocity, it's on-gun or something that can trace and measure all shots.

For BPS, you'd literally have to monitor finger activity and motion (relative to trigger/frame) and link that to the shot recorder.



The implementation of something like this would prove... as I said so many pages ago, really invasive. How many posts ago was that? Yes, I know, I can come up with garbage sometimes, can't I? Maybe some of it could be done with cameras... but it would take LOTS of really high performance cameras... and lots, and lots, and lots of reviewing, although this could be helped by the assistance of the very low tech use of... people with good, trained ears.

[Brophog]

You do have to give Slarty some credit, even if he is technically out in left field. Atleast he's trying to solve the problem.

We can't really keep playing this semantic game, can we? It's not really full auto if you rub your belly, jump three times, and eat exactly 1.3 cups of sugar, but it is all other times. Isn't that about where we're at?

The real problem, is like Bill said here, and I and others have said for a long time, is everyone let it get this far. Early electros weren't a huge problem. But now, they've gotten so bad, that what can we do? I don't know. Let's just say it doesn't look pretty though.

[GT]

I'll throw in my 2 here and see if anyone reads my junk.

Cheating:
After class Tues. night I was chatting with a guy in my class. He said that the plan to run 2 planes in the the WTC was very simple. I told him he was very wrong.

You see the problem is cheating. What do we want to do? Stop cheating right? The logistics invovled are enormous and very complex.

Lets all begin to understand that cheating is a social problem. The inory here is you guys are attacking the problem as if there was something wrong with the equipment. I dont care if you think you have developed the best anticheating electro on the planet. Give it to any number of members on AO and they can find away around it. What needs to happen is to make cheating less bennifcial, i.e. start handing out lifetime bans.


Thoughts on the "industry":
Does it really matter that pros cheat? Honestly do you think it hurst the industry? Lets look at this wholistic and relize that there are much larger issues at hand, I will let you guys figure those out. My personal belief is that real soon here, next 5yrs, rec paintball is going to want to make a move to "tourney ball." I think this influx of players will overload traditional venues and new ones will be started. Futhermore, with more money in the industry, K2, SP, and tippmann, we are going to see these folks start thier own series. I think that is where we will begin to see the formation of new legues.


p.s. Stop arguing and begin to think. The new era doesnt need disention, it needs leadership, and AO only need chose one path.

jb

[Jeffy-CanCon]

You do have to give Slarty some credit, even if he is technically out in left field. Atleast he's trying to solve the problem.

...

The real problem, is like Bill said here, and I and others have said for a long time, is everyone let it get this far. Early electros weren't a huge problem. But now, they've gotten so bad, that what can we do? I don't know. Let's just say it doesn't look pretty though.

Agreed.

Sadly, I think the problem here is one of organization and authority. It IS possibly to turn back the technological clock, IF you have a strong governing authority to ensure compliance by all manufacturers. But paintball doesn't have that. Because the manufacturers own the leagues and tournaments, they have no interest in a level playing field. They will each pursue the arms race in a bid for a technical superiority with which to boost sales of their markers. We saw that in the late 90's when thay all "agreed" to the 14BPS cap, and then all ignored it.



I'll throw in my 2 here and see if anyone reads my junk.

Cheating:
After class Tues. night I was chatting with a guy in my class. He said that the plan to run 2 planes in the the WTC was very simple. I told him he was very wrong.

You see the problem is cheating. What do we want to do? Stop cheating right? The logistics invovled are enormous and very complex.

Lets all begin to understand that cheating is a social problem. .

...

jb

You are right in that cheating is a social issue, but this thread isn't about cheating in general. This thread, from post #1, is about technological cheating. In the abstract, technological cheating should be easier to monitor and control than active play-cheating. But we have let the tech side go for so long, that we can't see our way back to daylight.

[billmi]

I can sort of understand hi-tech's idea.

The best (only?) way you can detect these cheats is to catch them in the act, in a recorded fashion. You must record behavior, and record results.

For velocity, it's on-gun or something that can trace and measure all shots.


Yep, I've been saying that for the last 5 years. Al Dilz, the designer of the Paintball Radarchron says it is practical and possible with a clip-on device. You shoot hot, it registers an alarm and you are done - that easy.



For BPS, you'd literally have to monitor finger activity and motion (relative to trigger/frame) and link that to the shot recorder.


That's the sticky wicket, finding a practical way to record the trigger pulls on the field to correlate them to the shots fired.



The implementation of something like this would prove... as I said so many pages ago, really invasive. How many posts ago was that? Yes, I know, I can come up with garbage sometimes, can't I? Maybe some of it could be done with cameras... but it would take LOTS of really high performance cameras... and lots, and lots, and lots of reviewing,


Yes, and it would only catch a portion, and you would have a lot of contested decisions with players claiming that the camera wasn't catching enough detail of their finger movement to see clearly.



although this could be helped by the assistance of the very low tech use of... people with good, trained ears.

That has been the answer from assorted tourney judges for years "oh, we can hear if they are shooting full auto, turbo, etc." and it's simply not true. At an NPPL tournament in 99 I shot some nice clear, tightly framed video of a pro player shooting in auto-response mode (shooting on both the pull and the release - the finger movement was wide and clear, and the bolt movement was visible) on a field where the head ref confidently told me that they were well experienced and could hear guns that were cheating.

[SlartyBartFast]

You do have to give Slarty some credit, even if he is technically out in left field. At least he's trying to solve the problem.
Thanks for the credit, even if I dispute the left field accusation. ;) I’m not trying to solve, Just offer ideas. For now I’m content to just stay out of being part of the problem. Got to say that I’ve more or less given up any ideas of opening a field or running an event based on the vitriol that’s raised asking about enforceable rules.
Look, I don't pretend my big end solution is "simple". And I have repeatedly said that the small end solutions of enforcing existing rules would be the place to start. Indeed the only reason my focus was technological in this thread is because the thread was technological.
Interestingly enough, talk about rule enforcement equally leads to various twerps going into the "you can't understand it unless you’re a tourney player", "enforcing them to the letter is too invasive".
It's amusing how I get attacked as if I'm claiming that my approach is simple, when I freely admit that it would require time money and political will, while others can get away with conjecture about various ways to cheat.
Instead of saying how easy it would be to:
break a tamperproof seal, open the enclosure, remove the coating from a board, change the chip or the programming, then get the whole thing back together again so that nothing is detectable and then counterfeit a seal, all so that the modifications can then be undetectable if the board is inspected and opened up after a tournament win...
Why not come up with some ideas to try limit the rampage of dishonesty?
But then again, if you try to discuss how to enforce standard rules you get the same result. Lot’s of vehement arguing about how it’s easy to cheat and little about how to improve enforcement.
The only other suggestion, using cameras, isn’t cheap or easy to implement either. Think examining a board before competition is long? How about reviewing footage of all the players and analyzing it. But, in either case random sampling with massive penalties could have a deterrent effect. But judging by the time tournament DVDs take to come out, I’d think that any penalty assessed by camera would have to be an after-the-fact sanction for upcoming events.
Heck, cheating is shown on a number of DVDs and no sanction is given to those caught. You could argue that teh clauses in various rule books about dishonouring the tournament series or promoters could at least be called into play (NPPL 13.02 perhaps).
The only way to effectively police high-tech IS to be invasive.
Granted, even the big boys can’t get it perfectly right. Look at how in F1 Shumacher did terribly after rumours flew that his team was illegally duplicating traction control through engine management software. The couple of subsequent races that the engine tech wasn’t present at, the car experienced obvious tire spin and lock. Well, F1 decided to roll back the wording of the rules as they had no power to examine engine control code.
While approved and controlled technology certainly leaves the cheating to the factory teams, it does then make it easier to focus on those teams to check for further cheating. It would also make for little to no cheating at lower levels of play. Also, the more determined they have to be to cheat, the more difficult it is to claim innocence when caught and the easier it is to impose stiff sentences. But then again, paintballers pussy-foot around issues as blatant as sniping from the sidelines.
Want to eliminate even factory team cheating? Take a page out of the rule book for many competitions that rely heavily on technology and equipment. Determine a limiting factor and force every competitor to use a tournament provided part for that component.
Perhaps the only external limiting factor that is possible in paintball is the amount of ammunition allowed per game. Or, go all mechanical. Limit the hopper allowed (sounds like a sponsorship opportunity to me). Disallow eyes/ACE/cops/sensi. Or, roll back all rules except for completely verifiable ones (trigger pull length and weight) and allow fire modes and full auto. Just eject any team with a gun that fires after a trigger is released or without it being pulled.
Got to say I like the idea of on-barrel chronographs. Simple models could simply count infractions and buzz, recording some statistics might be interessting as well. Infractions could then be assessed penalties immediately at the end of the game. I actually sourced all the parts for an RF model and began talking with some acquaintances in the electronics field. Came down to lack of time to take the idea further, but the cost per unit was getting rather excessive.
Gtrsi, you make a very good point. A main problem is societal and the general attitude towards cheating. But I think that the cheating at the “pro” level and the uncontrolled nature of electros does affect rec play. If fields can’t control what the walk-ons are using, how long until they face a lawsuit and then decide to only allow rental equipment? How long till insurance companies figure it out first and impose a ban on non-rental equipment? How would that affect the industry?
And it isn’t all technology, standard enforcement of the rules and the behaviour that is condoned on the playing field has other dangers. Already in hockey we’ve seen criminal charges laid against players. It has been rumoured that lawsuits against the league for condoning the behaviour that led to the attacks. Any paintball tournament series or individual field in which someone is injured or gets a concussion from multiple head shots and the person that caused the injury faces the same dangers.
PS: Goatboy, I know that my approach would possibly NEVER allow the E-Mag board to be approved.

[GT]

You are right in that cheating is a social issue, but this thread isn't about cheating in general. This thread, from post #1, is about technological cheating. In the abstract, technological cheating should be easier to monitor and control than active play-cheating. But we have let the tech side go for so long, that we can't see our way back to daylight.


True,
but its to late, we cant go back. Take a look at some of the hidous ideas to curb "E-cheating." Like I said its a social problem, whether its gun or player its still wrong and we need to asses both and determine the best course of action.

However, like I said before, there are bigger fish to fry than what "pros" do or dont do.

jb

[Stimulation]

I have one question:

Where is Big Tom?

[GT]

Gtrsi, you make a very good point. A main problem is societal and the general attitude towards cheating. But I think that the cheating at the “pro” level and the uncontrolled nature of electros does affect rec play. If fields can’t control what the walk-ons are using, how long until they face a lawsuit and then decide to only allow rental equipment? How long till insurance companies figure it out first and impose a ban on non-rental equipment? How would that affect the industry?


SBF,
I dont to be critical but please put some space on your paragraphs. Your correct it does affect rec play, the question is how much? I think what scares me the most is that ramping boards, grossly ramping not just alittle bounce, are making there way into the used market. I really wish these morons wouldnt sell this stuff to the rec players.

Keep in mind that insurance is a buisness, although heavly regulated. Also keep in mind that if fields cant afford insurence due to premiums then isnurence compaines are no longer recieving the additional revenue. Insurance companies make money of both sides of paintball, manfuacturer and field/store owner. Remember that most issurance is mostly Risk based. There would have to be a hella-lot of deaths to really cause concern. Heck the reason the stats are so low for pb related injures is the lack of reporting or a mechanism for reporting.

IN a law suit folks are looking for money, plain and simple. I am willing to bet there is more money in the company that makes the equipment than the field owner and if any of these companies have an ounce of sence they carry some sort of libility insurance. Shure there premiums may go up a few bucks but they will just slap you, the consumer, with an extra 100 dollars for your next super splat master 2k.

[ilikePB]

they will just slap you, the consumer, with an extra 100 dollars for your next super splat master 2k.

I can't wait to get a super splat master 2k, I hope it comes set at db1 and a ramping board that ramps it to 35bps after I hit 5bps.

[Miscue]

The battery itself might not even be necessary.

A coil in the palm of the glove would have a pulse inducted into it by the magnetic field of the solenoid coil - wire that to a cpoil in the mid-finger of the glover, and it will generate a corresponding magnetic pulse lined up with the HES. It would be a passive way to trigger the HES with the solenoid pulse - if it's strong enough.

This is a rough description of the self-reciprocating problem, and why 4.01 is not released.

[Miscue]

When you tap "shave and a haircut" on the trigger it then fires full auto until you release the trigger.

You know... when I first thought of that a while ago, I wondered to myself how many people have actually done it. :D

Well, with monitoring trigger pulls and stuff - what if they used 3 or more fingers? It becomes even more easy to contest the test. What about a glove with open finger tips used to disguise finger pulls? How about a warpfed loader that hides your hand on one side altogether? What if I leave a finger touching the trigger with the other as the primary finger, and say that my secondary finger movement is very short and you can't see it on the video? With 1mm trigger pulls, finger doesn't have to move much. With a parallax, you can't see if the trigger finger has left or not. What if I wrapped my finger around the trigger and used the inside of my knuckle to fire? You cannot see the point of contact. What if I turn my body to the camera? How about hiding my trigger hand with my other hand? What about arguing that a shot was buffered, and that explains why it shot w/o a finger touching?

These things might not even work, but I'd imagine there's probably something like this that would defeat a camera - and everyone would figure it out and copy each other.

[trains are bad]

What needs to happen is to make cheating less bennifcial

bingo.

[REDRT]

My take on the subject is:

1. some teams out there a using special boards in there electro-markers to run big rates of fire.

2. most if not all electros out of the box are fast and are easy to acheive it.

3. Tom's products are and will always be what I use no matter what, period! Because they are every bit as good (fast) (if you can do it)as an electro that isn't Hopped up (cheater boards) plus they are simple.

4. My younger brother that I talked into an RTP can empty his hopper just as fast as an Angle 4. He has the touch. I can't

5.Yes I'm doing everything posible to get my old Classic RT to shoot as fast as posible. I may never get there, but it is fun trying.

6. I wish the e-mag and x-mag had been kept in production because I feel they have a better chance in the tourney scene for exceptance among todays electro-crazed players.

7. With the hope of Hair trigger many mag users are hanging on, but and I hope I'm wrong, it won't change the fact mags are unpopular amongst the masses. I still need it TOM!!!

8. some more exposure to the public couldn't hurt?

9. I'm happy that AGD takes the time for R&D to produce quality, but it may be too much time laps to beifit to company. Look at some other markers on the market. They change something very small and market it as new marker. In a years time it seems like they have 20 new guns and it is the same thing over and over again! Fact is we the people are stupied! Falling into the marketing trap and buying it. I like to think us mag owners are different, but we are small. Do I want AGD to do that, NO. But the big boys are working overtime spitting it out faster and racking in the $$$$$$.

10. As a bussiness owner everything you do is a risk I very much know this fact. But sometimes in ones darkist hour one needs to take a leap of faith and do something different, new and go for broke.

this is my thoughts.

[GoatBoy]

I wasn't actually suggesting that the camera method would prove... plausible in any sense, I was just giving a general idea as to what we would be looking for... Obviously there are holes in it. In fact, let me make it clear: I don't believe it would work.


Yes, I've seen the cheating on DVD's and videos and stuff, and I think it's pathetic. Even worse, what do other players think when they see flagrant cheating, like say playing on after being hit? "OMG AWESOME! HE WAS RIPPIN ON HIS TIMMY SO FAST OMG LOLGZ!!! U GUYZ HAEV 2 CHECK THIS CLIP OUT!!!" If you want to talk about being 'resigned to accept cheating', that's the crowd you should go after, not most of the people in this thread.


As far as people with trained ears; I wasn't talking about relying on their ears: more like using their ears to help us cue which portions of the records we want to focus on and analyze. You know, sort of help us prioritize what to go after.



Remember, the rule is "1 shot, 1 pull [of the trigger]". Breaking it down...

1. count the shots (duh)
2. count the 'pulls'

The 'pull', the action that causes a shot, might be a little fuzzy.


Make sure for every trigger movement, only 1 shot comes out. Track the trigger movement.

For every finger movement, only 1 shot comes out. Track the finger movement relative to shots fired.

Trigger movement needs to be caused by the finger. Track finger movement relative to trigger. If the trigger takes off without a finger behind it, you know something's fishy.




I dunno, that's about as far as I have gotten as far as thinking these things through. How would these technical goals be realistically achieved? I have no idea. Defining parameters for a 'pull' might be a start. Not sure how happy our trigger fetished population would be about this.

[SlartyBartFast]

Remember, the rule is "1 shot, 1 pull [of the trigger]". Breaking it down...

1. count the shots (duh)
2. count the 'pulls'

The 'pull', the action that causes a shot, might be a little fuzzy.


More than 'fuzzy'. How do you reliably count pulls?

[Twitch_DGA]

i too think that agd has some marketing probs, but is far as performance i dont think they are lacking. i can walk my ult around 10-12 bps easy, and thats fully mech. i dont have to worry about shoot down, or chopping paint. the thing is light, and accruat as h*ll too. i think that agd has been bad mouthed out of the top market place with roomers, and seriotypes. as far as electro markers shooting to fast, and pros shooting over 20 bps i doubt it. every time i see a vid of dinasty, or other pro teams all the rapid fire is at the break. not much after that that looks above 12 bps. they dont wased there paint, they seem more selective about there shots than the players you see at your local feild. i dont think bounce should be leagal though, because you dont have to think about trading speed for acuracy. the trigger dose the work and your gun dose not move as much. it just takes a little more skill and feness out of the sport.

[Scott Hudnall]

This seems like old news....all through the thread. The Jan 2004 Facefull magazine did an entire spread on this issue.

Being a former field owner, I think this issue will come down to 2 possibilities: paintball will need to deal with this through self regulation (doubtful....the cat's outta the box already), or insurance providers will deal with it for them.

So....if there's any paintball insurance carriers monitoring this thread.....how about some input here?????

[Tapper]

This seems like old news....all through the thread. The Jan 2004 Facefull magazine did an entire spread on this issue.

Being a former field owner, I think this issue will come down to 2 possibilities: paintball will need to deal with this through self regulation (doubtful....the cat's outta the box already), or insurance providers will deal with it for them.

So....if there's any paintball insurance carriers monitoring this thread.....how about some input here?????

People will not do anything until someone gets shot in the eye and a lawsuit follows. Then all of a sudden they will huff and puff and pretend to put effort into it. Things may change temporarily but nothing significant and nothing long term.

[Stimulation]

Counting trigger pulls has to be about the stupidest thing I have heard all day...

[hitech]

Yes, and it would only catch a portion, and you would have a lot of contested decisions with players claiming that the camera wasn't catching enough detail of their finger movement to see clearly.

Not necessarily. If the video cameras were high speed (anyone know what the frame rate is on those?) there should be enough detail. And we are not talking about one or two shorts that do not have an associated finger movement. I'm talking about a pattern of the marker firing while the finger(s) are obviously not doing the work, as in moving in the wrong direction. :eek: A few random cameras and some stiff penalties when it is indisputable and I think the problem would be GREATLY reduced. Right now it is SO easy to get away with everyone is doing it. You are at a disadvantage ( however slight) if you don't. :(

[SlartyBartFast]

A few random cameras and some stiff penalties when it is indisputable and I think the problem would be GREATLY reduced.

And how much would THAT cost. :wow:

TOp end cameras with the skilled cameramen to be able to get closeups that show both the balls exiting the barrel (or highly directional and filtered sound) and the trigger. :rolleyes:

Good luck.

[hitech]

And how much would THAT cost. :wow:

TOp end cameras with the skilled cameramen to be able to get closeups that show both the balls exiting the barrel (or highly directional and filtered sound) and the trigger. :rolleyes:

Good luck.

You don't need a top end camera, nor skilled cameramen. You just start with a good camera with a good frame rate and the operator gets OJT. You may not "catch" anyone the first few times, but you will gain invaluable experence and you will know how well it will work. After reading Bills post, I'd bet you could catch a few people with a "regular" camera. ;)

The real point is, you need to start somewhere. You need to make an attempt, but a little real effort into it.

Another idea, is put the camera in a metal box and have the operator wear headphones. Based on Bills observations you'd scare half the players out of cheating! :eek:

[GoatBoy]

Counting trigger pulls has to be about the stupidest thing I have heard all day...


I'd say you were having a pretty good day then.