Sydarm FAQ?

[Burphel]

Having owned a Sydarm for a while now, I've been trying to help out with the many folks asking about them because of the re-issue. I got to thinking that maybe I should just write up an FAQ to save energy and maybe answer questions people forgot to ask. Then I got to thinking more, and I'm willing to bet that there's already a manual in existance since these puppies were sold to the military and there's no way they could operate anything without a manual. So how about it? Any chance one of the AGD elves could spare a few moments to scan and upload it for reference?

I'm still more than willing to whip something up, but I don't see much point in spending the time if something's already out there.

[chasden]

I'd love to see a FAQ written up if there isn't a printed manual that comes with the Sydarm (just ordered mine Saturday night!). Documentation is always a good thing.

[chasden]

What kind of threads on the Sydarm barrel? Is it the old twist lock Mag threads?

[Lohman446]

It is a twist lock, vertical feed body from what I can tell, at least on the new ones.

[Jack & Coke]

A Sydarm FAQ is a great idea...

Don't forget to inlcude this important bit of information:



Ok, having owned a Sydarm for about 3 years now and having used it (or tried to use it) quite a few times, I'll tell you what I know.

First off, I am a die hard AGD fan. I think they make great products...that being said, the Sydarm is not one of them.

There is one big problem, it's based on a mag valve. As many know, Mags do not like CO2 (in liquid form). If you pull off five quick rounds from a sydarm, the valve and the 12 gram freeze up. This makes the 6th shot roll out the barrel and at this point you might as well just drop the 12 gram and insert another as it take a really long time for it to warm up.

Yes they are small, yes they are light and yes they are well build. But performance wise, a PT Extreme actually works better and is ALOT cheaper.

You want a good Sidearm, the Squall is the way to go. Or something based on the PGP.

BTW, you get about 15 "good" shots from a Sydarm as long as you shoot slow. The AGD site claims 24, I have no idea how they came up with that number, those last 8 shots would be rolling out the barrel.

On a personal note, it upsets me that AGD did this. There are a lot of us who bought Sydarms for a pretty high price becuase the public could not get them. A few have paid upwards of $700 for the polished bodied ones becuase there were only a few out there (they were stolen by an ex AGD employee and sold). Now, they turn around and sell polished sydarms for $425. That means anyone that bought a sydarm before, now have their value reduced to atleast $425, and my guess much lower than that because it's used.


Although I don't think the freeze-up "problem" is important to limited ammo guns (i.e. 8-10 round spring feeds), or exclusive to the Sydarm, I thought this bit of info was very honest and informative...

[Lohman446]

A Sydarm FAQ is a great idea...

On a personal note, it upsets me that AGD did this. There are a lot of us who bought Sydarms for a pretty high price becuase the public could not get them. A few have paid upwards of $700 for the polished bodied ones becuase there were only a few out there (they were stolen by an ex AGD employee and sold). Now, they turn around and sell polished sydarms for $425. That means anyone that bought a sydarm before, now have their value reduced to atleast $425, and my guess much lower than that because it's used.


Don't take this as a personal attack, take it as more of a question to throw out there. Again, not as an attack, its just sometimes things are worded best if blunt

So you're saying your upset because the STOLEN PROPERTY you were in possession just went down in value because of something its lawful owner did? I guess if it was me I'd kind of keep the tidbit I knew it was stolen to myself.

Edit - I don't know that TK cares how you got them, perhaps somewhere he said well if you have them just keep them or something, and again, I dont mean to be flaming anyone

[Burphel]

The barrels are center feed twist-lock like the old CF RT's. It's an L shaped rather than T-shaped slot. The RT barrel's probably the cheapest you'll find, CF RT's didn't get real good coverage as far as barrel production. I believe Dye and SP made some of their higher-end barrels, but they ain't cheap. You might be able to alter a standard Mag barrel by drilling a pit at the cross of the T, but then there'd be only the spring-pin which is precarious at best.


As for Muz's freeze-up issues, I've never had a problem, nor have the other ones in Evil Inc's grubby little hands (about 4 of them, most from the run of refurbs a year ago). Sure your efficiency goes to hell if you rapid-fire, but I've never had it disable the gun. Don't try to empty the clip in one string and you're fine. It's at it's best if you think of it as a stock class pump that allows you to double-tap if you need to.

The shot count is a bit inflated in my experiency although I've managed 3 clips shooting well fitted paint through a RT Centerfeed barrel on a very hot day at high altitude and shooting once every 5 seconds or so. Pretty much ideal conditions for a 12g gun. I stopped counting how many shots my Phantom got that day. 2 reloads and maybe a few after that in an emergency is more typical.

[MidnightRider]

I love the idea of a FAQ. I, for one, have questions about the Sydarm.

Burphel, you said that you have been answering questions already, is there a dedicated thread yet? Maybe one I haven't seen yet?

Peace

MR.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

So you're saying your upset because the STOLEN PROPERTY you were in possession just went down in value because of something its lawful owner did? I guess if it was me I'd kind of keep the tidbit I knew it was stolen to myself.

I think he just meant he bought one legitimantly(sp?) and then the rest were stolen and sold off. At least thats what I got out of his post.

[Muzikman]

I personally do not have a polished body Sydarm. I bought mine the same way everyone else up until last year did, someone had one for sale.

As for the polished ones being stolen property. I did not steal them and the people who bought them did not know they were stolen, so don't make me look like the bad guy here. AGD can do what ever they want, but this is the first time that I have actually seen them screw a loyal customer out of money. It might be indirect, but Tom knew the street value of a Sydarm. I have talked to Tom about my Sydarm many times. I begged him to sell me a new body, I offered him $300 to fix it when it was broke. He would not because as he tells me they are too expensive to produce and fix. Now, what he might be doing is flushing out old inventory and raising his revenue this year. For AGD this is a good thing, for us collectors, it is a bad thing.

Someone made a comment on POG that people should not invest in paintball guns. I do not "invest" I collect, there is a difference. But when I pay top dollar for an item because of it's rarity, I usually expect it to hold it's value and not become common. I guess maybe this is why I should just stick to the old guns where the manuf no longer exists.

As for Jack & Coke's comment. It does happen in other 12gram powered semi's, but not nearly as bad. Most of the other guns do not freeze the valve which is the biggest problem. As for why would you ever shoot that much, some times you have to. We are not talking 16bps here, we are talking 5, no matter what, even in stock play I have gone through 5 pretty quick. Big difference is a lot of guns are easier to load balls and 12grams:)

[Burphel]

There's a couple of threads here asking about them, and more on other forums I frequent.

I've talked to Muz in the chat about this, and I can kinda understand how he feels. But I think the vast majority of people got them to play with them, not to set them on a shelf and look at them and think about how valuable they are. I play with mine and love it. I don't see myself selling it anytime soon, so I don't care what it's resale value is. The way I see it, now there's more people who can play with theirs and hopefully enjoy them. If you speculated on something's future value and conditions change, them's the breaks. If it pisses you off, avoid the stock market and Vegas.

[AGD]

First of all I will state right up front Sydarms SUCK. We quit selling them to the public when we got a lot of complaints about liquid CO2 and efficiency etc. They were never intended to be a real paintball gun, any blow back will perform better on liquid. They were only intended for three shot police training.

Since scenario has come on so strong and most people know what their limitations are now, we have decided to clean out the remaining inventory. For sure we will never have any stainless bodied ones again and I doubt we will ever make aluminum bodies. There will be one more batch of 100 for those of you counting.

AGD

[Empyreal Rogue]

First of all I will state right up front Sydarms SUCK.

Ouch, that's kinda harsh. And coming from TK himself. :\

[Jack & Coke]

First of all I will state right up front Sydarms SUCK. We quit selling them to the public when we got a lot of complaints about liquid CO2 and efficiency etc. They were never intended to be a real paintball gun, any blow back will perform better on liquid. They were only intended for three shot police training.

Since scenario has come on so strong and most people know what their limitations are now, we have decided to clean out the remaining inventory. For sure we will never have any stainless bodied ones again and I doubt we will ever make aluminum bodies. There will be one more batch of 100 for those of you counting.

AGD

:headbang: big ups to AGD for being honest, and not fluffing us with over-hype in order to boost sales. The sydarm fills a niche notwithstanding it's performance limitations (CO2) as honestly put forth by Muzikman.

Tom, if had to engineer a spring feed 10-shot, 12g semi-auto pistol from the ground up, what are some things you'd consider given your experience these last ten+ years?

[Muzikman]

Tom, if had to engineer a spring feed 10-shot, 12g semi-auto pistol from the ground up, what are some things you'd consider given your experience these last ten+ years?


If I had to do it, I would invent the right sized N2 12grams:)

[Beemer]

If I had to do it, I would invent the right sized N2 12grams:)

Thats a good one. This is from my first post on this forum.

"Hey Wizard got the guys at the shop putting compressed air in my empty co2 cartridge's so I can use the 6-pack and Micro CA again"

Guess what you said..........."This post makes zero sense"
Does it now?

[trevorjk]

you know there is a mod out there...

lets take a pt extreme.

a co2 cylinder(a peice of alluminum machined to fit) with a bottomline coming out of it can be placed into the spot where the co2 cylinders go. and then you can run a bottomline to the grip frame. machine screw holes to hold an ASA and run a 13 ci or a 45 ci tank... a few people at the local proshop have done that...

and another thing...

for vertical co2 holders (wich im guessing the sydarm is) brass eagle had a 40$ kit that allowed you to run a bottomline off of those to... so really if you want you can run compressed air of of either types of pistols

http://www.countypaintball.com/product_description.asp?item=2969 - vert
http://www.cops911.com/product.asp?id=10158 - horizontal

[bofh]

for vertical co2 holders (wich im guessing the sydarm is) brass eagle had a 40$ kit that allowed you to run a bottomline off of those to... so really if you want you can run compressed air of of either types of pistols

Um, have you even looked at a picture of a sydarm? It uses a normal mag frame.

However, there is a CA kit for a sydarm. Kinda pointless in my mind, but cool anyway. i guess I need a MicroCA :)

[trevorjk]

well i wasnt to sure :p

anyways i just thought id voice my opinions in that there are adapters out there to run actual tanks off of pistols

and heres a link for a small HPA tank you can get taht would work great in my opinion you have to look at there site but there is a 13ci tank tehre

http://www.getrealpaintball.com/

[Muzikman]

Yes, there is a CA adapter for the Sydarm. And yes you can run it on HPA using it, but even with the 13ci tank, it would end up being too big to use as a sidearm. Years ago I saw N2 cylinders what were just a tad larger than a 12gram, but still the same idea (small disposable on time use cylinder). Just need to make one that would fit inplace of the normal 12grams.

[Jack & Coke]

Ah... if you ran a bottomline kit, it wouldn't be a pistol anymore! :tard:







From: http://www.cooper-t.com/sheridan.html

C/A PGP Complete
http://www.cooper-t.com/images/4510.jpg
Here is a setup for C/A on your PGP. This is a back mule velocity adjuster air tube and 12grm adapter. The only modification needed is the slot in the pump to clear the tube or you can add the Nasty Pump. Add an E-Q pull bolt and you really have a sweet competitive gun.

Price: $49.95

E-Z Air Bottom Drop
http://www.cooper-t.com/images/3500.jpg
Drill a hole in the side or bottom of the 12grm chamber, insert the dummy, screw in the ASA adapter and you now have C/A. It will accept any tank or a Rat-attack for quick change.

Price: $17.95

[Burphel]

Neither of the Cooper T bits will work as-is. The bottom one will if you're willing to drill a hole in your Sydarm. I talked with him about doing a dummy 12g that would fit in the stock vent slot before I found my OEM CA plug.

As for it being a pistol, if you put a 12g on the bottomline and build a one-way check valve, it doesn't alter the feel much, is still holsterable and improves your shot count a bit while making changes a *lot* easier.

Or...
http://users.clarkston.com/burphel/Sydarm.jpg
This with a foregrip is comfy as all getout. Just forgot to stick it on for the picture.


But we're missing the whole freakin' point of this thread.
Can we get a manual posted online to answer some of these questions that keep coming up?

[AGD]

"What would I do if I was designing the Sydarm from scratch?"

I would make an internal air chamber in front and under the barrel. I would refill it like a compressed air bottle. I would also make the balls feed from the bottom like a clip but t his would mean putting the sear system on the outside of the gun. This way the gun would be half as tall, not have co2 issues, reload with a clip and cost 1000 dollars.

AGD

[Muzikman]

But we're missing the whole freakin' point of this thread.
Can we get a manual posted online to answer some of these questions that keep coming up?


Burph, I am actually putting something together. The basic stuff that people keep asking. We'll see how it goes.

[GoatBoy]

I personally do not have a polished body Sydarm. I bought mine the same way everyone else up until last year did, someone had one for sale.

As for the polished ones being stolen property. I did not steal them and the people who bought them did not know they were stolen, so don't make me look like the bad guy here. AGD can do what ever they want, but this is the first time that I have actually seen them screw a loyal customer out of money. It might be indirect, but Tom knew the street value of a Sydarm. I have talked to Tom about my Sydarm many times. I begged him to sell me a new body, I offered him $300 to fix it when it was broke. He would not because as he tells me they are too expensive to produce and fix. Now, what he might be doing is flushing out old inventory and raising his revenue this year. For AGD this is a good thing, for us collectors, it is a bad thing.

Someone made a comment on POG that people should not invest in paintball guns. I do not "invest" I collect, there is a difference. But when I pay top dollar for an item because of it's rarity, I usually expect it to hold it's value and not become common. I guess maybe this is why I should just stick to the old guns where the manuf no longer exists.



I've been trying to reason this one out, and I just can't.

People out there WANT Sydarms. AGD had them. They decided to sell them to those who wanted them. On the one hand, AGD might have "screwed" you, but on the other hand, a lot of people get what they want. So you're telling me you would rather keep a product that's laying around out of other people's hands for the purpose of keeping your gun's value? That's not very nice. I can't really see this as AGD's fault (Other than refusing to fix yours when it broke. That totally sucks.) It's not their responsibility to keep your gun valuable as a collector's item.

Now, as far as the value of yours goes... It's not like AGD's going into production with these, right? How many of these are being released? Once the last ones are out of AGD's hands, what do you think is going to happen to the values of the guns?

You might not call it an 'investment', but to me, you made a gamble. Perhaps you would prefer that AGD ceased to exist, in order to protect your... collection value?



Just my 0.02

[Muzikman]

I've been trying to reason this one out, and I just can't.

Perhaps you would prefer that AGD ceased to exist, in order to protect your... collection value?



Just my 0.02


Yep, you got me.

[Lohman446]

"What would I do if I was designing the Sydarm from scratch?"

I would make an internal air chamber in front and under the barrel. I would refill it like a compressed air bottle. I would also make the balls feed from the bottom like a clip but t his would mean putting the sear system on the outside of the gun. This way the gun would be half as tall, not have co2 issues, reload with a clip and cost 1000 dollars.

AGD


Where do I send my deposit?

Ok.. here it is - I've decided screw the tournament scene.. Im playing scenario ball. With the money I save on paint.. tis conceivale to spend that on a marker, besides I think my E-mag is getting well boring, its time to go mech, and I am going to have my Vertical Stock Class pump mag built soon enough...

[1ofkind]

Someone has to invent micro HPA tanks, heh... :D
:cheers:

[Burphel]

Well, a CO2 tank's working pressure is 1800 psi. You could use a CA kit, put a reg on a 4oz tank and replace the HP burst disc with a CO2 burst disc. Fill to 15k and you've got... about as many shots as a 12g :cool:.

Since I'm lucky enough to have one that doesn't freeze up, I'll just stick with 12g's. Although I'd start selling some stuff (anybody need a B- kidney?) if they made the hypothetical 'Sydarm OMG' :headbang:.

[Jack & Coke]

a CO2 tank's working pressure is 1800 psi.

I think that's a little high... :wow:

[Muzikman]

I think that's a little high... :wow:


The tanks working pressure is about that. CO2 at about 80 degrees is some place right around 800psi.

[Beemer]

uhh maybe 1200????????/

[Jack & Coke]

What is the difference between the "tanks working pressure", and the "working pressure" of the CO2?

Are we talking about the same thing?

Maybe I misread the part about 1800 psi...? It is late you know... ;)

[Burphel]

Working pressure is the pressure a tank is designed to be used at. Going above working pressure can cause defects in your tank and decrease it's safety at any pressure. Run your tank above working pressure and you're increasing your chances of blowing burst discs and failing hydro. Also, everyone involved will laugh at you if you get injured as a result and try to sue.

If ya don't believe me check out Catalina Cylinders (http://www.catalinacylinders.com/) under either Paintball Cylinders or CO2 Cylinders. Now, look on the side of a CO2 tank, you'll see 1800 stamped on there somewhere, not 800, not 1200. Now if you look on a Nitro tank, it will have it's fill pressure stamped or printed on it.

Test pressure is how high the tank will go without blowing up. Usually at least 1000psi higher than the working pressure for safety. To find out a tank's test pressure, you'll probably have to contact the company that made it. They don't exactly advertise that information because there's too many idiots out there who'd try to fill to it. Run your tank approaching test pressure and you're taking your life in your hands.

As Muz mentioned, CO2 in reasonably nice weather runs 800 psi, but in very hot weather it can spike up significantly higher than that because the liquid boils off (or lower in the winter). Burst discs are usually set a little above a tank's working pressure. Most of us have had a nitro tank overfilled abit at one time or another, and the discs usually don't go off there, but you haven't been in paintball very long if you haven't seen one go on a CO2 tank. Nitro tanks aren't filled lower because atmospheric temperatures are well above N2's boiling point. Since compressed air is still mostly N2, the properties aren't significantly different.

[Arawn]

Someone has to invent micro HPA tanks, heh... :D
:cheers:

I believe they already have, although I'm not sure if they are compatable with the Sydarm. From what I've been able to learn they are 8g N2 cartridges used by brewers and wine bottlers.
I posted on the Tinker's Guild about this and have gotten some informative, if inconclusive feedback.

Tinkers thread (http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=9013&messageid=1089126812)

B.

[GoatBoy]

How about if AGD just gave up the AIR back half and replaced it with something CO2 tolerant?

[Jack & Coke]

How about if AGD just gave up the AIR back half and replaced it with something CO2 tolerant?

You mean something like... say... a Stab? ;)

Is a Stab really that much better than other regs on digesting liquid CO2?

The stab on my Blazer seems occationally creep a bit with liquid CO2 (during rapid fire).

[Muzikman]

For a regulator, a Stabalizer is amazing. It will stop almost all liquid within reason. I find it best to run with an anti-siphon tank. But even when I don't it still does a better job than any other reg on the market and/or expansion chamber. So to say that it is going to be perfect when dumping liquid CO2 into it might be asking a bit much, but there is none better IMO.

[GoatBoy]

You mean something like... say... a Stab? ;)

Is a Stab really that much better than other regs on digesting liquid CO2?

The stab on my Blazer seems occationally creep a bit with liquid CO2 (during rapid fire).


Well, I don't know how much better it is against all other regs, but it sure as hell is better than the AIR when it comes to CO2.

I'm sure this isn't a new idea, it's just usually shot down when it's suggested for main markers for "performance reasons" or whatever. The Sydarm's situation is rather different though.

I'd vote to make a dummy back AIR valve "collar" end that on one side screwed to the normal place, but on the other side was just an ASA adapter so you could screw a stab right in there. Run a stainless hardline from the CO2 cartridge mount (front, under barrel) to the Stab. But alas, I'm not AGD am I?


As far as the creep on your blazer... have you tried this with a different reg than the stab on there? I figure you'll see the same thing with any other functioning reg + CO2 + rapid fire on your gun. It might... have nothing to do with the stab.

[Jack & Coke]

As far as the creep on your blazer... have you tried this with a different reg than the stab on there? I figure you'll see the same thing with any other functioning reg + CO2 + rapid fire on your gun. It might... have nothing to do with the stab.



I havn't really tried to look into the cause. I've just been using my 45/4500 HPA tank.

I just read all this stuff about how the stab handles CO2 with no problems, then I look at mine and wonder WTF? it's brand new and creeps (the gauge starts to climb from 425 psi to 550-600 psi after rapid fire). I have an AS 20oz tank going right into the stab. :confused: Maybe I need to take it apart and re-lub the piston? I'll check into it...

[Brophog]

Let it break in. Every stab I've ever owned had a good 3-4 thousand shot break in period. Just make sure to run some oil through that stab regularly, and it will break in just fine.

[Jack & Coke]

Let it break in. Every stab I've ever owned had a good 3-4 thousand shot break in period. Just make sure to run some oil through that stab regularly, and it will break in just fine.

...so before yours "broke in", it would creep too?

(last comments regarding stab... return to sydarm talk :) )

[Brophog]

Just a bit. We're not talking a lot, maybe 50-100 psi. Once the reg sets though, it's golden.

[Muzikman]

Yes, the older (more broke in) a Stab is the better it seems to work. This really goes for any reg, including the mag. I like to have atleast 2000 shots on a rebuilt mag just to make sure all seals are set and broke in.