Jaws Drop at The Paintball Arena!

[Butterfingers]

It was the end of the night and I wanted to get rid of some crappy diablo midnight paint that had been sitting in the humid 80 degree weather the other day so I loaded up some of the q-pods and took some vengance on the 55 gallon drum at the back of the target range at the arena.

I cranked the pressure up slowly on my Butterfingers edition silly stupid modified Old School Retromag. I had it sitting at around 950-1000 psi and was ready to have some fun.

I unloaded the first pod... about 3.5 seconds of pure fury no chops. To me it sounded at least as fast as my 30 bps e-mag video that is so conveneiently placed in your LX cd's :)

Needless to say that attracted a bit of attention... All of the sudden people started filing into the target range to see what godly device could produce such a thunderous hail of paint.

I proceeded to insert another q-pod aimed the gun towards the center of the 55 gallon drum I slowly pulled the trigger and let the fun begin. Emptied no chops and a straight and true stream of paint with no more than a 2 inch spread.

When I was done there was dead silence you could hear a pin drop. The people at the target range that had tried so hard with thier flashy timmies and pimped out impulses to one up one another had just stopped. You could hear the dull hum from the halogen lamps lighting the complex.

I turned around only to see a dumbfounded look on many faces. One person just broke out in laugter/disbelief shaking his head saying "holy (explitive deleted), holy (explitive deleted)", ect. I heard a mutterance of... "oh my god that gun owns all..." "This thing has no eyes!?!?!" A few just turned away slowly not knowing what they had just seen.

I attempted to fire another pod but alas the q-loader failed me. It jammed forcing the Level 10 to work perfectly... For now the fun was over. For those filing in later they missed it. The event was witnessed by few but the legend will be passed on from generation to generation. Until next time the legend of the Butterfingers edition stupid silly modified retromag will remain engrained in the minds of all.

More to come next week... perhaps with video coverage and working q-pods...

[bokraham]

so this is with bounce?

[GT]

so this is with bounce?


uhhh yea. There was a rumor not to long ago that X valves where noticbly les reactive than older retros. any truth to that?

[Skoad]

The people at the target range that had tried so hard with thier flashy timmies and pimped out impulses to one up one another had just stopped.


This is one of the problems I have with all this, "my mag can shoot 30 bps" videos and stuff going around.

IT'S FULL AUTO.

neat but dumb nonetheless, and I garauntee most other guns can be set up to go "full auto" just the same - and with a Qloader feeding it, little to no chops. Take for instance from one of the Zman videos. From what i remember there was a guy using a viking in it, they said it was on "simulate mode" which basically means its firing without use of the eyes, just like as if it had no eyes.


so this is with bounce?

of course it is.

[teufelhunden]

When I was done there was dead silence you could hear a pin drop. The people at the target range that had tried so hard with thier flashy timmies and pimped out impulses to one up one another had just stopped. You could hear the dull hum from the halogen lamps lighting the complex.




That's because they're actually pulling the trigger...

[68magOwner]

i dont care if its legal or not, its fun to watch

[Z-man]

This is one of the problems I have with all this, "my mag can shoot 30 bps" videos and stuff going around.

IT'S FULL AUTO.

neat but dumb nonetheless, and I garauntee most other guns can be set up to go "full auto" just the same - and with a Qloader feeding it, little to no chops. Take for instance from one of the Zman videos. From what i remember there was a guy using a viking in it, they said it was on "simulate mode" which basically means its firing without use of the eyes, just like as if it had no eyes.

I make no claims about it's legality. My interest is to show how fast you can go. Anyone who makes it into more than that has some agenda for praising or booing it for reasons other than that.

[Skoad]

the comment wasn't directed toward you, but more towards what people "get" out of these videos.

I guess its hard to explain what I'm getting at, but it involves the word hype everyone seems to hate.

[Lohman446]

THe field that I play at allows lesser experienced players full auto... just not me :(

[Smoke]

I guess its hard to explain what I'm getting at, but it involves the word hype everyone seems to hate.


How is it hype to see how fast the RetroValves can be pushed?

[teufelhunden]

Because people don't realize that's runaway, and therefore think that 'Mags actually are that fast..

[TeamNausea]

Its hype that they think he can pull the trigger that fast.

[Smoke]

Because people don't realize that's runaway, and therefore think that 'Mags actually are that fast..

Well if they can't look at his finger and tell he's not pulling the trigger more than once, that's stupidity, not hype.

[ilikePB]

That's cool, but I'd think any high-end electro set to db1 fed by a q-loader or victory boarded halo could hit at least high 20's if not 30. Not sure though, but that's what I'd think. But it's cool either way.

[ProX9]

everyone says their gun can do the exact same thing if they set it up to bounce like that, yet none have tried it so it must be true. even if they did they need to get it on tape so we can sift through the bs that is thrown around. its not hype its just showing how fast the gun can shoot and how fast the q can feed it would only be hype if it didnt actually do it.

[desslock]

I always thought the "crono shows" are a lot like the burn out contest that gear heads do w/muscle cars. Its like a way to say "Hey this gun can bounce like a mofo and I would prob never fire a constant stream of 20+ balls a game, but hey I can if I want to" Its like alpha wolf posturing, who can walk the fastest, whos gun is the twitchest(sp). I bet field owners love those guys, cause every time they goto to crono The owners eyes turn to $ $. I say keep wasting paint boys!!! diablo, pmi, rps employees need to feed their families and you guys help make that happen! LOL

[RRfireblade]

It's the same look I get ripping an A5 RT. No one knows how fast it actually is,it just sounds rediculously fast and they have no idea how it's doing it,Mags just do it better. ;)

The difference between the Mag and any other high end electro however,is the Mag can easily be made to run at it's max cyclic rate and the typical 'other' high end electros,even with mad bounce,will usually not cycle at it's full max rate. It's simply harder to get them to shoot at the Max without a 'true' auto mode and that's why you don't see many vids of it happening.

Either way, it's still quite fun to see peoples reaction to it, particularly those who haven't the experience or knowledge to understand the basis for it.

[Skoad]

everyone says their gun can do the exact same thing if they set it up to bounce like that, yet none have tried it so it must be true. even if they did they need to get it on tape so we can sift through the bs that is thrown around.

i have probably a dozen videos on my computer of people with tons of different guns, where they pull the trigger, take their finger off, and it bounces until they manually stop the trigger (like in the zman vid with the vik). Or just holding fingers and it bouncing, walking and bouncing, etc etc etc.


... it's still quite fun to see peoples reaction to it, particularly those who haven't the experience or knowledge to understand the basis for it.
Yes, it is fun and entertaining. no doubt about that :) And if shown as to "test" something like a loader it can be useful. But for playing, not really.


Well if they can't look at his finger and tell he's not pulling the trigger more than once, that's stupidity, not hype.

Yes but some people don't look at the videos closely, take the first reply to the post for instance:
so this is with bounce?

[Smoke]

Yes but some people don't look at the videos closely, take the first reply to the post for instance:

But that point is moot because this took place at a paintball field.

[AGD]

We can still wow 'em after all these years........

:D :D :D

AGD

[GT]

We can still wow 'em after all these years........

:D :D :D

AGD

how old is the RT valve? 7-8 years. :headbang:

[Skoad]

everyone says their gun can do the exact same thing if they set it up to bounce like that, yet none have tried it so it must be true. even if they did they need to get it on tape so we can sift through the bs that is thrown around.

Just for you Prox I uploaded some vids.

http://web.umr.edu/~sjjgfd/a4.avi
http://web.umr.edu/~sjjgfd/goku.wmv
http://web.umr.edu/~sjjgfd/100_0695_0001.mov


But that point is moot because this took place at a paintball field.

huh? I'm talking about here on the forums and the videos that are posted.

[rx2]

Whilst I do think that many of these demonstrations can be turned into hype if misconstrued or misinterpreted (or misinterpretated, for you Mr. Show fans), I think a lot of people do unnecessarily bash such showings. Granted, it is impractical, and illegal (although it may not be soon enough). But, what one must consider is that we have here a marker that everyone bashes as a slow chopping machine. Many believe that the design is way too outdated to ever be competitive.

I do think that it does have shortcomings, such as with efficiency (although that may become less of a problem in the near future). However, what is being demonstrated is that this “old” technology CAN cycle well beyond the limits of human abilities, and even the abilities of some feeders. Furthermore, it can do so without chopping paint. This is not hype, but the dispelling of the myth that Mags are only good for paperweights, as they can never be made to be as fast and paint friendly as a “high-tech” marker with break-beam eyes and such.

Of course, there are still points of contention as far as the viability of a factory Mag. Currently, a mechanical Mag from the factory is not going to cycle as fast most E-guns, as the rules CURRENTLY stand. And, when they were being made, the stock E-Mag triggers weren’t very popular, and needed oft to be replaced or finely adjusted. But, with a little TLC, and a few aftermarket parts, there is no physical limitation to the core design of the Mag that would prevent it from doing what every other marker can. Whether it is worth the price put in, I can’t say. But, these demonstrations prove that it is possible for yesterday’s technology to keep up. I think that if we consider that point, one can see the validity of these things.

[50 cal]

Some friends and I were in a 3 man league a few years ago. I used my old school RT all the time. Other teams tried to get me thrown out because they swore my RT was full auto. I just handed it to the refs and said "Make it shoot auto". They would get maybe 3 or 4 quick shots and then chuff it. They would hand it back and just shake their heads. That old RT spanked a lot of butt.

[Army]

It's only hype, when all you can do is talk about it :cool:

[shartley]

The problem I see is when other players at the field TRY to duplicate the speed with their LEGAL setups and folks say the Mag “owns” or is the best because it was shooting faster, it is not a valid indication of anything other than the marker can shoot fast in an illegal firing mode. This is what I think people here are trying to say.

That my friends IS hype. Just as much as if you build a ¼ mile car that is not street legal by any stretch of the imagination (and then try to act like that is an indication of the make of car) and then folks get all down because their street legal cars can’t drive as fast. What does that prove? Does it prove that their cars can’t be as fast if the same modifications and alterations were made to THEIR cars? Nope. Does it prove that that make of car is a faster car than other makes of cars? Nope.

Like others have said, there are many videos of other types of markers shooting just as fast with illegal setups. The ability of most markers now days is to the point that blazing speeds can be obtained quite easily with illegal alterations to the markers. The true test is how fast can people shoot their markers having them set up within the rules……………….

[Skoad]

exactly, amen shartley!

just trying to keep people from getting the wrong impression.

[GT]

such as with efficiency (although that may become less of a problem in the near future).



can be turned into hype if misconstrued or misinterpreted

care to share?

[elpimpo]

That's cool, but I'd think any high-end electro set to db1 fed by a q-loader or victory boarded halo could hit at least high 20's if not 30. Not sure though, but that's what I'd think. But it's cool either way.


at db 2 my timmy will hit 23 by itself, and weve gotten it up to 28

[jesseyo13]

if you set an a4 to ramp+ trigger off set to 1 it will probably easily go 25+, even though its ridiculously illegal. Nonetheless its fun to watch. :dance:

[Halliday]

uhhh yea. There was a rumor not to long ago that X valves where noticbly les reactive than older retros. any truth to that?
I want to find out too :shooting:

[Blennidae]

With regards to people getting the wrong impression on mags since it is bouncing to function at that rate of fire. How is that any different than someone setting up thier electro with "illegal" settings and claiming how fast gun "X" is? Isn't the end result the same?

For me personally, I like to see all the videos of all the guns shooting fast. I am happy with the choices I have made regarding my guns. Seeing a different gun shoot fast means nothing to me. I myself can't shoot any guns near their limit, so its all moot. ;)

[Jack & Coke]

There was a rumor not to long ago that X valves where noticbly les reactive than older retros. any truth to that?

I don't know if it's true for all cases, but I have noticed the same observations (x-valve vs retro) with my guns.

My Retro Valve always seems easier to maintain sweet spotting mode (reactive trigger), than my X-valves.

So I would agree with you, in my experience, the Retro valve is a little more "reactive", than the x-valve.

[Enemy]

no clue on retro over x...

one point i would like to make is that the trigger is mechanical its also not like the triggers those videos supplied..those triggers actuated on its own. the mags still takes a certain amount of force!!! now who cares if its legal or not its fun to see and fun to toy around with hell one of my friends plays his ule rt sweetspotting in games so its all good but sweetspotting is alot harder than just hitting the trigger and letting it run away!!! also lots of fields dont boot rts so whats it matter if its legal or not!!!

[Butterfingers]

The refs are pretty liberal at my feild... depending if they want to seperate into high tech and low tech classes. They allow RT's and somewhat illegal setups as long as they don't run away and fire by themselves. The firing MUST stop the nanosecond the trigger is released if it dosent its not allowed. Its more of a saftey issue of the gun firing on its own than assisted rates of fire.

Its always fun once in a while to own the guy who thinks hes so cool puts his DM4 to a ridiculously low debounce number then reply with a solid wall of RT thunder :D

Until rules change I agree that RT's are impractical for tourney use. However for rec and scenario ball as rules allow I now see where Tom is going with this. No gun ever that I have shot or used including any new high end electros set up SAFELY to bounce could produce a solid noninterupted stream of paint as easily as the RT can. Whereas other guns produce broken streams of varying speeds the RT always sings along like a well tuned F1 engine now chop free with LX.

[LeatherPants]

So what's the difference btwn that and some kid putting his Spyder on FA? The Pandora board on my Viking has a setting for FA but that's just wrong.

There are those who want to learn how to shoot fast and others who need their gun to shoot fast.

[Butterfingers]

Put either one on FA with the eyes on and its not nearly as fast.

Put either one on FA with the eyes off you have a wagner power sprayer.

The mag has the shortest stroke and one of the fastest bolt speeds which inherently makes it conducive to reliable feeding. I can get into the physycs but it has been discussed before.

[LeatherPants]

That's not my point. On FA a viking can still hit over 20+ bps with paint but where is the skill in that? Even a Spyder can hit close to that.

My point is what's the deal about showing off a marker that just bounces?

[Butterfingers]

Why Not?

I personally feel there is much more skill and thought to tactics, angles, and manuvering around the paintball feild than learning how to twitch your finger 20 or so times a second. With the ridicoulous trigger pulls and trigger "enhancing" logic available today its kinda moot.

[LeatherPants]

I've shot so many altered markers. Ramping Alias, ramping, shot storing DM4 you name it. One of the Alias i shot hit 16 bps over the chrono with me shooting one finger.

So you would be a propponent of dropping the regulations against these in tournies.

Given that the skill involved in moving through a field and knowing how to play each type of bunker is the most important, gun skills and snap shooting is also important. Where is the skill of just popping out of the bunker and holding your trigger down?

The thread about the NXL supposedly allowing ramping markers brought up such a stir on this forum. So I'm guessing you would be the first to agree with that supposed change.

The biggest thing brought up in that thead was that pros hit pros but when ramping markers find their way down to the "everyday play" that's when things get bad. Kids getting lit up etc.

So you're fine with a marker that just goes bounce to full auto playing in just a regular field against regular kids.

I could easily put my marker on "turbo" mode. Or better yet I could buy a DM4 or Alias and since I do have access to the chips and boards mentiond I could have a ramping marker. But I don't because I don't agree with them and I feel I shoot fast enough w/o them.

There are tons of people faster than me but if I'm able to pick up 4 completely different markers and walk them all to 17-18 bps then I deserve to say I can shoot that.

[shartley]

How about this question…..

I will not argue that a mag in FA (bounce) may be faster than other markers in the same mode. But all of them will be DARN fast… even the “el-cheapos” now days.

But the simple fact of the matter is that although SOME fields may allow this type of equipment to be used, I would bet most don’t. And that leaves us one question….

What markers allow users to shoot the fastest in normally allowed firing modes and setups? I would bet that the Mag would NOT come up on top compared to even some of the cheapest electric framed markers on the market now days. It most definitely will with the new triggers coming along, but I doubt it will with the standard triggers (and I LOVE my IntelliFrame, but sadly now days I see folks using cheaper electros that can keep up and pass my speeds).

I LOVE Mags, don’t get me wrong. I just think these types of examples are stacking the deck to control the outcome and what people want others to believe….. which may or may not be accurate. Don’t show me the “capabilities” of a marker in a nonrealistic situation…. show me the capabilities in standard field use and bounce that off of other markers set up exactly the same way.

[Jack & Coke]

Why Not?

I personally feel there is much more skill and thought to tactics, angles, and manuvering around the paintball feild than learning how to twitch your finger 20 or so times a second. With the ridicoulous trigger pulls and trigger "enhancing" logic available today its kinda moot.

Interesting...

I kinda agree :)

So if someone is considered a "skilled" paintball player, does if mean his "skills" are more respresented by his ability to:

- shoot fast (i.e. walk the trigger @ 15-18 bps)

or

- hit what he's shooting at, move when he's suppossed move, communicate well, etc.

The fact that people are concerned about "noobs" shooting Spyders fast is really silly :shooting: .

[RRfireblade]

Interesting...

I kinda agree :)

So if someone is considered a "skilled" paintball player, does if mean his "skills" are more respresented by his ability to:

- shoot fast (i.e. walk the trigger @ 15-18 bps)

or

- hit what he's shooting at, move when he's suppossed move, communicate well, etc.



And I've always stood by the opinion that ROF doesn't make the player however.....

If said player has great field skills AND has the ability to shoot very fast and accurately,that player will have an edge over most others who have only one of those traits.The simple fact,believe it or not, is that in the vast majority of paintball situations a higher ROF will raise your chances of # balls on an oponent and the percentage of those balls broken. And that applies to ALL types of play,not only including,but especially woods ball.

"Skill" applies to all aspects of the sport including the ability to fire your marker quickly and accurately.If you can't keep up with the competition,you ARE going in handicapped with all other things being equal.....like it or not. ;)

[LeatherPants]

Also your ability to shoot fast allows you to push your opponent back in to his bunker so you can move.

All good front players know this. A back player can only push so many people in for a short period of time especially if the other team is good. A front play should also know how to push and create opportunities.

[Butterfingers]

This is a real interesting debate.

I was thinking to myself the other day after I came back from the paintball arena.

Why is it that a 14 year old kid with a brand spanking new shocker that his parents got for him gets touted as a better player? At most he has probably played ONCE.

I see this kid out on the feild taking out everybody else becuse all he is doing is slinging paint all over the place while people are shooting back at him with rental tippmanns. On two occassions he shot his OWN players out including myself.

You know what his dad with the DM4 said to us... oh im sorry this was his first time playing!

On the other hand I see this guy must be 16 or 17 years old with a model 98 that he bought himself shooting at less than HALF the rate of fire but he finds himself serously outgunned by sombody who has more disposable income than him. He was a novice but he knew what he was doing. He had been playing for a little while. Gee if this guy had as much firepower he would have mowed this other kid down before he had time to shoot one of his own plaers in the back...

You know how to solve ALL these problems:

Saftey: Leagalize full auto at a preset ROF or enhanced fire such as RT so there is no cheating with unsafe uncontrollable bounce. You release the trigger thats it... it stops.

Fairness of play: same... a tippmann on full auto or RT can exceed 15 bps. Enough for a player with better skill to take out a player with better equipment.

Just my 2 cents...

[LeatherPants]

First off don't hate on someone who can afford to play and buy his kid the a good marker.

I DO agree with you that it's not the marker that makes the player. One of my friends who was on Bushwhacker's Am team still likes to play with his mechanical cocker once in awhile. He still does well with it. But he does need the speed of his eblade to seirously move up the field better.


I do not see FA as an answer. One example is bunkering. On a regular marker you can choose to shoot 1-10 balls at the guy. Walking whatever. I takes effort to shoot that many. NOW with a FA marker some guy is just going to come around the bunker holding the trigger. It will be ugly. FA is just easier to hurt some kid.

[Butterfingers]

Im not trying to hate on the person that has money to play. Its just an example of how superior equipment can seriously offset superior skill on the playing field.

Perhaps there should be classes of markers like there are classes of racing. This way people can shoot whatever and play however they want. It also evens up the playing feild since each class has equipment with similar capabilities.

[LeatherPants]

Im not trying to hate on the person that has money to play. Its just an example of how superior equipment can seriously offset superior skill on the playing field.

Perhaps there should be classes of markers like there are classes of racing. This way people can shoot whatever and play however they want. It also evens up the playing feild since each class has equipment with similar capabilities.


Well locally fields tend to seperate walk-on groups. Ususally they look at the marker and say "uh yea kid with the Dynasty Shocker you're in advance group. Tippman kid, novice." Now players can choose to go to the advanced group and it does suck for the newbie kid with the nice marker but hey that's life too.

Then again superior skill against superior equipment shouldn't matter that much since mose times the kids don't really know how to use their marker to its potential.

[ilikePB]

Then again superior skill against superior equipment shouldn't matter that much since mose times the kids don't really know how to use their marker to its potential.

Agreed.

[Butterfingers]

Its a good start. But I think there should be some kind of widely recognized structure of classification.

For example, the SCCA has many classes for sports car racing. A chevy corvette races in a diffrent class than a geo metro. By seperating equipment levels everybody has a chance to race and be competitve regardless of equipment. What it boils down to is driver skill in a particular class.

This way everybody is in an even playing feild and it is conducive to the growth of the sport because sombody who wants to try paintball and be competitive can start with a brass eagle talon and play a beginer pump class for example.

Each tier of classification would have its own set of rules regarding equipment.

This way EVERYBODY is happy:

The players are happy. The beginner that has no money CAN be competitive with others in the same class. The more experience better funded player can choose what class he wants to be in given his optimal skill set and equipment.

Gun manufacturers are happy. Class divisions allows ALL guns to be used to thier full potential and will not force features to be excluded from play.

Paint companies are happy: The upper classes will sling paint faster than Michael Moore can sling bovine fecal matter.

[LeatherPants]

I see what you're driving at and given you want this for everyday fields and rec play. Problem is that there will not be enough players. If you start dividing up people some days you'll have beginner group with 5 people and a advanced with 3.

There are already divisions in the tournament scene.

[RRfireblade]

The refs are pretty liberal at my feild... depending if they want to seperate into high tech and low tech classes. They allow RT's and somewhat illegal setups as long as they don't run away and fire by themselves.



Why is it that a 14 year old kid with a brand spanking new shocker that his parents got for him gets touted as a better player? At most he has probably played ONCE.


Well that's your problem right there. If your field actually enforced the rules and guidlines the already exist,you wouldn't have some 1st time player ABLE to sling paint like that with a legally set up gun.;)



Leagalize full auto at a preset ROF or enhanced fire such as RT so there is no cheating with unsafe uncontrollable bounce. You release the trigger thats it... it stops.

So then your answer to that is to have everybody sling paint regardless of skill level.

Interesting.....

[Jack & Coke]

So then your answer to that is to have everybody sling paint regardless of skill level.




I still think its silly for people to equate "skill level" with their ability to "sling paint".

Especially with today's high end hair trigger electros. Even more ridiculous when you factor in "debounce" features.

[RRfireblade]

I still think its silly for people to equate "skill level" with their ability to "sling paint".

Especially with today's high end hair trigger electros. Even more ridiculous when you factor in "debounce" features.


If your field actually enforced the rules and guidlines the already exist,you wouldn't have some 1st time player ABLE to sling paint like that with a legally set up gun.

"Legally" as I said,as in legally set up semi only.

And of 'course it's a skill to shoot 17-20bps on a 'legally' set up gun, can you do it by simply walking a trigger? ;) (not talking about 'raking' or other less than legal methods)

How many people out there do you think can while running and playing on the field?

How many people out there do you think can while shooting form thier off hand?

How many people out there do you think can.....at all?

Now you know why 'debounce' and RT triggers are so popular. :)

Shooting skills ARE skills despite those who don't have any legally actually think.

Jay.

[LeatherPants]

I agree. It took me awhile to be able to walk the trigger while running up the break. It's so easy for someone to hold the trigger in FA and run. Try running off the break while walking the trigger at a high rof AND holding the marker in the lane.

Being able to shoot fast accuratly IS a skill. Me being a backplayer it's extremely important and some thing that I would practice and run drills for.

Fireblade brought up another good point that I forgot about. Off hand shooting. That's another skill that FA will just take away. How many of you can walk the same speed on both hands. I can at a stand still but I'm still trying to work on my off hand while running. It takes practice.

Given some people put lots of bounce on their markers. Sadly that's something we have to live with but still FA is not an answer. It's just a cop-out for people who can't shoot fast or don't have a marker they can put bounce on. If you can't shoot that fast too friggin bad llive with it.

[Skoad]

I can't shoot with my left hand for beans.

[Lurker27]

Spyders have more bolt open time than mags, especially with lighter internals.

That said, legalizing everythig is just silly. You're taking out the ability to shoot fast as a skill. And, for insurance purposes, it's a nightmare to have everyone shooting 30bps. A modified A5 with a full auto frame could probably outstrip all others based on its cyclone feed system.

But here's the real reason it won't happen: it's easy to make a gun that shoots a fast full auto. Hell, rig up an astable 555 on any marker and you've got it. I don't think the paintballing industry is really going to accept having $200 guns shoot exactly as fast as the $1200 guns. It's all about money.

The answer, as someone stated earlier, is to be far harsher on fast guns. if one is spotted bouncing or adding shots, even if the player denies it, pull hi for the game and have a look at the marker.

Right now it's low risk, medium is reward (most cheater guns could be putting out an honest 15bps with a competent person behind it, without the enhancements)...change the risk to high, and it'll go away quick....the NPPL is doing the right thing with the robot, they jsut need to unclamp the markers to factor in rampign bounce as well as electronically added shots.

[LeatherPants]

Sadly the NPPL robot does not catch all the ramping boards. I think I read an Article in Paintball.com that stated that they still cannot catch everything.

There really need to be harsher penalties. I believe the recent PSP in LA a team was found with runaway markers. They were booted from the tourney. More things like this need to happen.

Now as far as rec balling or everyday play it's even harder. No field wants to turn away money. No field wants to make it difficult for players to come and shoot paint.

It's a pain.

[RRfireblade]

I agree. It took me awhile to be able to walk the trigger while running up the break. It's so easy for someone to hold the trigger in FA and run. Try running off the break while walking the trigger at a high rof AND holding the marker in the lane.

Being able to shoot fast accuratly IS a skill. Me being a backplayer it's extremely important and some thing that I would practice and run drills for.

Fireblade brought up another good point that I forgot about. Off hand shooting. That's another skill that FA will just take away. How many of you can walk the same speed on both hands. I can at a stand still but I'm still trying to work on my off hand while running. It takes practice.

Given some people put lots of bounce on their markers. Sadly that's something we have to live with but still FA is not an answer. It's just a cop-out for people who can't shoot fast or don't have a marker they can put bounce on. If you can't shoot that fast too friggin bad llive with it.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. For 2 hours last Saturday,that's all we did.Drilling breaks shooting on the run and breaking in both directions,shooting with the correct hand for the direction.If you don't think that takes skill,laying paint @15bps+ ON TARGET while on the move and with either hand,your dead wrong.

That's what I hate the most about these issues concerning 'legal' setups. Some of us work really hard at all aspects of the game and unfortunately,due to the possesion of 'Morals' refuse to go down that road.

What we need is the equivillent of 'natural' body building events,or like 'stock' and 'modified' classes but I really doubt anything llike that will happen so.....

Well...enuff ranting............

[Skoad]

Here's a video of a gun with some "hidden" cheating, usually gives refs a hard time and can't detect it.

http://web.umr.edu/~sjjgfd/Angel.wmv

end of the video will show ya. It can be set up for just about any bps until it starts to bounce.

[ilikePB]

I can't shoot with my left hand for beans.
Same here, I've been practicing though, hopefully I'll get better.