Stop This Event!....Please Read

[arsonpaintball06]

This is a scenerio game that has recently been posted on AO, the following was written by the AO member Meph

Originally Written By Meph:

Now we've all seen or heard of or even played in D-Day type of games. About events that happened how many years ago? Decades ago? I mean the grievances of those events have come and gone, they are now history. Personally I'm not a fan of them, I won't participate in them, but I also can see it as play-able to a degree. So long as it's still pushed on the fact that this is fantasy land and such.

But what about recent events. Would it be okay to have a game in a shut-down school and call it "Columbine"? Would it be okay to play in the Nevada Desert with 'hostages' and call the game "Operation Iraqi Freedom"? Would you expect somebody to produce a game in Maryland where the objective is to find 2 poeple who've been picking off random civilians and call it "Sniper Hunt 2004"??
Or how about a game on September 11th. Not even twisting it around with fake terrorist organiztions... but using the actual names and the game's intent is to prevent the president from being assassinated..... would you think this game is okay?

Well some people did. Check this crap out.

http://www.boomspeed.com/meph2003/poster.jpg

That's right. Apparently these guys have no problem making light of these events and attempting to make a profit off it at the same time. Showing a complete lack of respect to those 3000+ who died in that terrorist attack which inevitably would trigger us to go to war causing even MORE American casualties!

And nowhere on the site was there any specific bolded mention of...
"This game is in rememberance of those who died due to the Terrorist Attacks"
"This game is to pay for the WTC organization funding"
Or anything like that, nothing. They've now deleted it from their website, but their original promotional message was



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
911
AMERICA UNDER SIEGE

WHO THOUGHT THAT IT COULD GET ANY WORSE AFTER THE BRUTAL ATTACKS THAT OCCURRED TO OUR COUNTRY ON 9/11/01. NOBODY.
NOW THAT TRAGIC DATE IS UPON US ONCE AGAIN, AND THE AL QAEDA FORCES HAVE A NEW PLAN, THE ASSASSINATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
THE AL QAEDA FORCES HAVE BEEN PLANNING THIS ATTACK FOR YEARS AND KNOW THAT IT WILL BE ANOTHER SUICIDE MISSION. THEY HAVE GATHERED THEIR TROOPS IN THE CITY OF TAYLOR, MICHIGAN AND WILL DEPLOY THEIR PLAN AT EXACTLY 10:00AM ON 9/11/04 TO COMMEMORATE THE DEVASTATION THEY BROUGHT 3 YEARS AGO.
JOIN THE SECRET SERVICE AT TAYLOR MICHIGAN ON 9/11 TO HELP STOP THESE TERRORISTS FROM KILLING THE PRESIDENT AND KEEP OUR COUNTRY SAFE FROM AL QAEDA ONCE AND FOR ALL.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I'm sorry but this is just plane wrong on so many levels. A classless lack of respect or honor towards you, I, and everybody else who has suffered because of this event. And those who died. And ABOVE all hosting it on the 3rd anniversary of the 9/11 attack itself.

Sorry this had gone too far.


Please contact the field and promoters of this event and tell them how much you disapprove of it. Also contact the sponsors if you have time. Events like this cannot happen. What is next, a holocaust scenerio game?

Field:nolimitspark.com
Promoter:splatterzonepaintball.net

[ß?µ£ §mµ®ƒ]

thats like something my field based off a movie WW2/ WW3 www.reddawngame.com

even tho its a movie america is conquered by russians, and the small band of resistance fighters is left and destroyed


what can you base scenario games on? even Dday is a little sketchy

[Halliday]

Yes it is in bad taste but I think they have the freedom of speech to run it.
Personally I'd show my lack of support by e-mailing them, not attending or if I REALLY wanted to go by paying for the entry fee and paint with pennies.

[252]

Thats pretty sick.

[Automaget]

I can see WWII or WWI or just about any war because if you think about it, its educational to the youngens out there to see what the people had to go through back in the day or learn the beaches of normandy or famouse battels like battle of the baulge but reinacting 911 is a discrase that should never be done it happend and you show respect to these people and the tragidy. but wars right now should not be reanacted hence because its to close to home maybe in a decade. thats what i have to say

[Skoad]

Not a big deal, at least to me. I've already played in a Bin Laden scenario.

[Hairball]

I agree, it is in bad taste.

[Chronobreak]

skoad, i dont think i ever realsied that your so close to me :p where u paly at? im in st.louis/fenton/st. louis conuty w/e

i think that this is in poor taste as well however i dont see a big deal if u dont like it dont attend..there are only so many REAL things to abse scenarios off of without making up random things like aliens,or soemthing...soem people like the war simulation games our local field recently had a ho-chi-minh scenario game and objectives like capture this setroy that ,it worked out pretty well but i do think there should be more variety in the scenario scene

[Fred]

I've never heard of that field, i think...

I know for sure i've never played there...

and now i have one more reason never to!

that's wrong on so many levels...

---Fred

[Muzikman]

Don't worry, already been averted. Take a look at their website http://www.splatterzonepaintball.net/ .

It was posted last night in the Scenario forum and it got shot down by this morning.

The power of AO.

[Skoad]

wantamag - pm :)

[arsonpaintball06]

so are they not havin the game anymore?

[GT]

I think you guys are missing the point why this is so dam wrong.

Scernario games based on warfare combants offer historical perspectives for younger gens whom do not understand the absolutle loss of life that happned durring world wide conflict. Paintball does a fine job of illestrating that. The difference is the combat was bewteen trained armies and not innocent civlians, police and fire departments.


I can see a generic terroist V. whatever but not something as specific as WTC.

[warbeak2099]

Well it's a good thing that was shut down. It was in very poor taste. However, I don't understand why an Operation Iraqi Freedom scenario would be wrong. I don't think it's wrong to take scenarios from real life. If it was, then it'd be wrong to play the D-Day games. There's nothing wrong with reenacting history and adding a fun twist to it. Consider this, the war in Iraq is current history. There'd be nothing wrong with reenacting it as long as the real horrors and truths of the war are observed as they are in the D-Day and other ww2 scenario games. I'd like to see more historic scenario games come to think of it. How bout some ww1, vietnam, desert storm, or korea scenario games? Maybe even farther back! Franco-Prussian, mexican war, american civil war (i've seen some), spanish-american war, crimean war, etc. Now some of those scenarios would be fun...

[SlartyBartFast]

I can see WWII or WWI or just about any war because if you think about it, its educational to the youngens out there to see what the people had to go through back in the day or learn the beaches of normandy or famouse battels like battle of the baulge but reinacting 911 is a discrase that should never be done it happend and you show respect to these people and the tragidy. but wars right now should not be reanacted hence because its to close to home maybe in a decade. thats what i have to say

Sorry, but that line of reasoning is a load of excrement. There's nothing educational about ad-hoc paintball games that borrow little more than the names of the opposing armies and the battles fought.

The only educational battles are re-enactments that go by a script and follow the actual battle, events, and outcome.

By the same argument that you used, the 9/11 scenario could be ‘educational’ about the events of that day. Why are 3000 people killed on one day deserving of respect while millions killed during a world war are aren’t? Few important battles in WWII had as few casualties as 3000. The soldiers that died, died defending freedom and to liberate Europe.

Sorry to be callous, but apart from the firefighters and police killed the 3000 on 9/11 were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Doesn’t mean both groups don’t deserve remembrance, and respect. But given those facts, which deserve more respect, honour, and gratitude? To whom should be much more thankful?

My choice is the victims of the world wars. If you think a game can debase the memory of the valour and honour of those thousands, and reduce the horrors and atrocities of a world war to a couple of days of amusement, then I’m sorry, 9/11 is fair game and if you don’t think so you’re being a hypocrite of the highest order.

Of course, IMO, NONE of the events listed should be used for paintball.

[xXHavokXx]

I think historical scenarios are still a little sketchy. Alot of people died on D-Day, making a game out of it really doesn't grasp the sacrifice made by alot of young men that day. A while back I was showing my friends grandfather pics from a scenario, he said it seemed like a decent idea as long as there is a point where they honor the people that were there and for whom that wasn't a game. He got really bothered though when he saw people dressed as Nazi's and SS soldiers like it was cool to dress up. He said the german flag would suffice, no reason to wear swastika's and the emblems of the SS. Personally I' dont feel as deeply as he does but hey I wasn't there. I'd be more into bladerunner, shadow run, or other non realistic scenes, but that's just me.


Whoever made the 9/11 scenario needs to be shot, not with a marker but a 45. That's just not cool. We might as well recreate the bhutan death march, the mai lai massacre, aushwitz, and the attack at pearl harbor. Hell we can really keep it real and put people in cars and have random people with PT extremes come and blast em in the face like the son of sam.

[SlartyBartFast]

I can see a generic terroist V. whatever but not something as specific as WTC.

Why not? And how on earth does a scenario paintball game give any perspective of massive loss of life or the horrors of war?

The 'innocent civilian' crap doesn't work to change your hypocricy either.

Millions of 'innocent civilians' were killed during wars. A little detail that the 'educational' scenario games don't cover.

[Muzikman]

I think war based scenarios are ok, they are not as tragic as what happend on September 11, 2001. Death is apart of war, people understand this and I think most accept it, including the troops. No rational person expects to go to war, or any other military conflict and not have deaths. In the case of September 11, these were innocent civillians who died. This should be thought of a tradgety rather than a military conflict.

If you want to hold an Iraq war, Vietnam war, WWII, WWI, Civil war, etc... scenario, in my mind that is fine, as long as it is done in good taste. To base a game on an event that caused civilian deaths is just wrong. This would be like a WWII scenario where you have to free the Jewish from concentration camps...to me, this is in bad taste.

Ya know...anyone that thinks that Sept 11 Scenario game was a good idea should be shipped off to a desert in the middle east, they can go join their kind.

[XbeasleyX]

Go ahead and call me insensitive but (almost) everyone in this thread need to quit whining. I mean yeah 3,000+ people died that day, but come on MILLIONS died in WW1 and WW2 and nobody (I've heard) gripes about those games. They have the RIGHT to do whatever they want.

[GT]

Why not? And how on earth does a scenario paintball game give any perspective of massive loss of life or the horrors of war?

The 'innocent civilian' crap doesn't work to change your hypocricy either.

Millions of 'innocent civilians' were killed during wars. A little detail that the 'educational' scenario games don't cover.


so playing the war video games and watching the PBS special is any better? how about history books, magzines, and case studies? Get real SBF most lit. is full of half truths and single sided stories. Most Scenario games do offer SOME (try and read that correctly) historical perspective. Do they accuratly portray the death and mayhem? No, I find it moronic to go on an E-tirad about something that attempts to inject some form of eduaction into today's youth. Does it tell the story? do they lack depth? Yes, but they also plant a seed.... the seed of sacirfice of past generations


Sorry to be callous, but apart from the firefighters and police killed the 3000 on 9/11 were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.

uhhh, WTF?
Atleast you could see conflict coming, I dont think anyone saw the planes headed through thier office window.

[Muzikman]

Go ahead and call me insensitive but (almost) everyone in this thread need to quit whining. I mean yeah 3,000+ people died that day, but come on MILLIONS died in WW1 and WW2 and nobody (I've heard) gripes about those games. They have the RIGHT to do whatever they want.


WOW...

Ya know what, I say we have a scenario game based on Ruby Ridge, Waco, The Oaklahoma City bombing, Nagasaki and Hiroshima. I mean why not? They were only people dying.

[warbeak2099]

I think you guys are missing the point of historic scenarios. It's for fun. It's for people who have an interest in history and those who might not to be able to almost go back and take part in it. It's like playing in your backyard as a kid. Some kids would be the Germans and some would be the Allies. One group would be the Union and one would be the Confederates. We are just playing, that's all. We are not being sacreligious to those who gave their lives for us. We're taking that life they gave us and having fun with it. We are celebrating them. Bottomline, because of the men and women who have served our country, we are able to do these things in rememberance. They didn't die for us so we could stay at home all day and try not to offend anyone. They died so we could do whatever we want and enjoy ourselves. If we live our whole lives worrying about everything, those people will have died in vain. So cut the crap. If we want to play historic scenario games then by God, we're gonna do it and we're gonna have fun doing it. And by doing it we'll neveer forget that it actually happened. Because that would be the biggest travesty of all, forgetting...

[SlartyBartFast]

WOW...

Ya know what, I say we have a scenario game based on Ruby Ridge, Waco, The Oaklahoma City bombing, Nagasaki and Hiroshima. I mean why not? They were only people dying.

I know you're being sarcastic, but if you can't see anything wrong with one type of scenario game there's no reason to be against any other type.

If you can play and make fun of the storming of the beaches, you can play and make fun with the ATF storming the compound at Waco.

The only thing I'd say sets any of these apart from war scenario games is that I find it difficult to see where the story line is interesting enough to try and squeeze a paintball battle into it.

My own personal hypocricy on this subject probably extends into computer games. Somehow I see computer games as a far more accurate simulation of warfare and the technology used. That, and most of what I played and enjoyed didn't entail trying to have the Germans win or the whole war, but focused more on an aspect of the war and not events in the war. Whether it be the air battle, sub hunting, or being sub commander.

But everyone has a different line they draw. I won't play scenario paintball at all, others don't like 9/11 based themes. But if there are those that will play ... Oh, well.

[SlartyBartFast]

And by doing it we'll neveer forget that it actually happened. Because that would be the biggest travesty of all, forgetting...

When you start asking paintballers about D-Day, and they think about play acting, flinging paint, and the awesome weekend they had...

Well, I think you HAVE partly forgotten.

[Meph]

There's no doubt that there's a big chunk of people who will have no problem attending these types of games. Be it based on 9/11, based on Iraq, based on D-Day, what have you. However why do games HAVE to be based on real events? You can have the "fantasy" without the actual event, and without wookies and pikachu!

Make up a story based in Chile or the Congo or Poland or what have you, doesn't matter. Create a fake story on a civil war, an invasion, what have you. It isn't like it's mandatory for events to use an actual event from history.

With D-Day compared to this specifically there is a difference. One happened decades ago, the other we're still in war with because of it. D-Day games I always see it paintballers on the promo-ads, this they used the actual Twin Towers burning image.

Now I'm not sure if that's true about "teaching kids about loss of life" I mean personally I've never met a kid that was in shock and awe of how the D-Day invasion was and then related that to history. Most were more worried about cleaning their gear and refilling their hoppers to reinsert ASAP. However I have seen kids making light of the events, wearing nazi-armbands and walking around talkin like Dave Chappelle "I'm a Nazi, [bleep]!" Reasons like that are why I don't even play in these games period. I can somewhat understand the D-Day games but I won't participate in them myself.

Which is what this all boils down to. Debate about what is the line, if there even is a line? Can these go too far, or is anything in bounds? If these events are just making a mockery of the tragic battles from our worlds history. Or here to teach our kids with personal 'hands-on' experience that civil-war type reinactments just can't teach to them.

[FooTemps]

Dude... to all that are arguing...

How the hell would you play a 9/11 scenario?

One team is civilians one team is terrorists?
Simulation:
"I am a terrorist and have "terminator" or "vampire" status"
"oh no I am civilian, shoot him! oh wait, i'm not supposed to have a gun! RUNAWAY!"

One team is firefighters one team is building debris and there is a group of civilian targest to score points
Simulation:
"I am firefighter!"
"oh nos a firefighter! Shoot him!"
"omgwtf some drywall is shooting paintballs at me!"

See what I mean? You actually CAN'T play a paintball scenario around the 9/11 event... Just like how you can play a scenario around hiroshima or nagasaki or oklahoma city bombing.
The scenario would basically be "omg we're attacked we're screwed the end"

[SlartyBartFast]

Dude... to all that are arguing...

How the hell would you play a 9/11 scenario?


How do you play D-Day?

Allied: A quarter of you must die, then you will WIN!
German: Put up a fight but make sure you lose.

Vietnam: Variations on the American retreat.

Korea: Guaranteed stalemate.

TO make it fun, you need fantasy. For the fanatasy, you need NONE of the reality. Red vs. Blue.

How about Pasty White Guys against Yuckistan? :p

[canemaster]

Go ahead and call me insensitive but (almost) everyone in this thread need to quit whining. I mean yeah 3,000+ people died that day, but come on MILLIONS died in WW1 and WW2 and nobody (I've heard) gripes about those games. They have the RIGHT to do whatever they want.



Agreed





:headbang:

[mkmckinley]

um, it's a free country. People should be able to participate if they want.

[personman]

Stop comparing WW2 to 9/11.
They are two entirely different events.
One was a war, one was an act of terrorism.
In one scenario, both forces were armed.
In the next, only one side was armed, and the other side was ruthessly slaughtered with no protection at all.
Kids have, and probably always will play war games. Cowboys and Indians, D-Day reinactments, or whatever. They shouldnt play 'lets go get in airplanes and crash into skyscraper' reinactments.

[Pickle]

Many scenarios are based on fantasy themes. Many people here have missed a big point I think. The comparison to WWI, WWII and WTC are apples and oranges. Unlike WTC. WWI and WWII were world wars fought on massive scale. WTC was a wholesale slaughter of 3000+ people and not a war. America's largest homicide. Now it did start a war so it could be argued that it was part of war. As such, if you truly believe there is nothing wrong with having or participating in a WTC scenario such as this than see what kind of reaction you get when you try to have a Dachau or Auschwitz scenario. Both of which are also wholesale slaughter of thousands (6 million actually :( ) of people. No, I do not think that WTC is comparable to Nazi deathcamps but you get my illustration.

WWI and WWII scenarios, I think, are accepted now because the majority of people view it as the last war of good vs. evil. WWII is also not being fought as we speak. Our countrymen are not dying as they are in Iraq right now. Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan are no longer our enemies. Some Iraqi's, many Muslims, and all terrorists are currently actively participating in hostilities against our country. Against our people, our children, our brothers, our family and way of life.

This should not be a debate about, "well if they can have a D-day scenario why not a WTC one." This should be about, "Hey 3000+ people died less than 3 years ago. We should have some respect."

[MagAl]

The problem I see with this is that they could have easily left 9/11 and all of the other b/s that they added in OUT, without hurting the experience of a fun day of scenario play.

[SlartyBartFast]

"Hey 3000+ people died less than 3 years ago. We should have some respect."

The passage of time should heal the wounds, but NEVER lower the respect deserved.

[Pickle]

The passage of time should heal the wounds, but NEVER lower the respect deserved.

I agree

[-=Squid=-]

I think you guys are missing the point why this is so dam wrong.

Scernario games based on warfare combants offer historical perspectives for younger gens whom do not understand the absolutle loss of life that happned durring world wide conflict. Paintball does a fine job of illestrating that. The difference is the combat was bewteen trained armies and not innocent civlians, police and fire departments.


I can see a generic terroist V. whatever but not something as specific as WTC.

I dont think ive ever seen a post by you with so many spelling errors and typos :tard:

Anyways... Here is what I think about it. Oh wait, I dont. Didnt think for more than a second. Who cares, really. If you dont like it, dont go. To me, its not offensive, even in the slightest.

Half the people who post here being "disgusted" probably dont care anyways. I mean, sure, it was a tragedy, but does that mean we cant talk about it, or use it for purposes other than teachings? How is this any different than reenacting World War II? Oh ya, it isn't.

EDIT - Personman, in all proposed situations in which both sides were "armed," they werent. You think that everybody who died in WWII was armed? Ready to fight? Hell no they weren't.

Im not supporting this scenario, hell, I dont support ANY scenario, but am simply stating that its being blown way out of proportion here.

[SlartyBartFast]

How is this any different than reenacting World War II? Oh ya, it isn't.

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!

SQUID and I Agree on Something! :eek: :eek: :wow:


:rofl:

[-=Squid=-]

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!

SQUID and I Agree on Something! :eek: :eek: :wow:


:rofl:
Man, I get that way to much.

:bounce:

[brianlojeck]

Someone a few posts up (and others agreed silently, I'm sure) said 9/11 and WWII were not the same, because the civilian casualities were not armed in 9/11.

Try to make that distinction to a 90 year old Japanese man.

Try to tell a Korean man that you have no problem simulating the korean war because it was a "war" and not an "attack", and no unarmed civilians were hurt. (oh, wait, you mean their is such a thing as a civilian on the other side?)

It is shallow and self-serving for you to say you are offended by simulating a "bad" combat situation, but don't mind "educating" our youth by simulating a "good" combat situation.

War is war, war is hell, and to pretend some wars were good and some wars were bad is outrageous.

I'm not even a big fan of "americans vs germans" scenario games, but you won't see me trying to shut them down. I'll leave the moral outrage to those who can't see past their own borders.

[personman]

EDIT - Personman, in all proposed situations in which both sides were "armed," they werent. You think that everybody who died in WWII was armed? Ready to fight? Hell no they weren't.
Well, I shouldnt have said World War 2 scenario because that would include things like concentration camps and japenese bombings.
What I really meant to say was D-Day. Thats what you guys seem to be comparing to the 9/11 tragedy and thats just not right.

[Pickle]

Brian, tsk tsk you are missing the point.

9/11 was not a war. it was the murder of 3000 people. Yes people get murdered in war too. Anyone up for a scenario of the "Rape of Nanking?". Didn't think so. The people that are comparing 9/11 to a war are off track. Anyone up for a "Columbine" scenario? Why not? Other than less casualties it was the same thing, just different idealogies.

THIS IS NOT A COMPARISON OF WARS!!

[SlartyBartFast]

What I really meant to say was D-Day. Thats what you guys seem to be comparing to the 9/11 tragedy and thats just not right.

Many civilians died on D-Day as the allied bombing destroyed villages, many more were caught in the crossfire, or killed by Allied troops as they stormed towns and buildings. Such is the gruesome reality of battle.

There is Valour and Honour in doing one's duty and doing what MUST be done. There is heroism in going beyond what you are duty bound to perform and putting others ahead of yourself. There is however no GOOD war only NECESSARY war.

You can't pick and choose the battles or the situations. D-Day had everything to do with concentration camps and attrocities. To sanitise any conflict is do do a disservice to the magnitude of the event.

[XbeasleyX]

Stop comparing WW2 to 9/11.
They are two entirely different events.
One was a war, one was an act of terrorism.
In one scenario, both forces were armed.
In the next, only one side was armed, and the other side was ruthessly slaughtered with no protection at all.
Kids have, and probably always will play war games. Cowboys and Indians, D-Day reinactments, or whatever. They shouldnt play 'lets go get in airplanes and crash into skyscraper' reinactments. I belive this part of the quote deserves special attention "only one side was armed, and the other side was ruthessly slaughtered with no protection at all." and the reference to Cowboys and Indians, how is Cowboys and Indians ANY different than a Terrorist attack?? Think- Cowboys with repeating guns versus Indians with Bows and Arrows? It seems to me you have a very large double standard when it comes to wrong and right forms of violence and warfare. Think about what our government did to clear out indians, I'll list just two and you tell me how its different from Terrorists. The infamous Small Pox on blankets-(sounds alot like bio-terrorism), Don't forget the very much unknown "Trail Of Tears" how is it different than having Terrorist militias invading an American Embassy and forcing them to leave thier country?

[brianlojeck]

Brian, tsk tsk you are missing the point.

I think I got it pretty darn well, personally.


9/11 was not a war. it was the murder of 3000 people. Yes people get murdered in war too. Anyone up for a scenario of the "Rape of Nanking?". Didn't think so. The people that are comparing 9/11 to a war are off track. Anyone up for a "Columbine" scenario? Why not? Other than less casualties it was the same thing, just different idealogies.

Try to tell my 90 year old japanese friend that it's possible to seperate the "war" of wwII from the atrocities of wwII.

The only reason you see a difference is that we won WWII, and got our asses handed to us on 9/11. If 9/11 had been a surpise attack that wiped out the headquarters of our enemy du-jour, but also took out 3000 of their casualties, it would be celebrated and we'd get the day off of work.

(and yes, I do realize how much 9/11 meant to this country. I am a born and raised son of New York, my brother in law is an EMT in NY, and my brother and 80% of my childhood friends worked in or within 2 blocks of WTC. I still have the pre-9/11 skyline hanging on my wall in my home. I was fortunate in that nobody I know well was hurt in the attack. I try to avoid being so egocentric that I see a life of someone who happens to live within the same arbitrary, imaginary lines on a map that I do as being worth less then someone who lives within different arbitrary , imaginary lines on a map.)

[Pickle]

Try to tell my 90 year old japanese friend that it's possible to seperate the "war" of wwII from the atrocities of wwII.

Okay, tell your 90 year old Japanese friend this.

War of WWII involved soldiers of opposing governments trying to kill each other.

Atrocities of WWII involved the purposeful killing, mutilation, rape and torture of innocent civilians.

[brianlojeck]

Okay, tell your 90 year old Japanese friend this.

War of WWII involved soldiers of opposing governments trying to kill each other.

Atrocities of WWII involved the purposeful killing, mutilation, rape and torture of innocent civilians.

But they were the same event. We cannot celebrate winning WWII unless we celebrate microwaving the citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, unless we celebrate decades of increased cancer rates, unless we celebrate the japanese citizens who were blinded for life when the looked out their window to see what the noise was.

All war is terrible, even if we win. You cannot say one is better then the other.

[Pickle]

But they were the same event. We cannot celebrate winning WWII unless we celebrate microwaving the citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, unless we celebrate decades of increased cancer rates, unless we celebrate the japanese citizens who were blinded for life when the looked out their window to see what the noise was.

All war is terrible, even if we win. You cannot say one is better then the other.

This thread is officially hijacked. :D

I can celebrate VJ day knowing that the decision of dropping the bomb saved an estimated One million Japanese soldiers and an estimated 1.5 million american soldiers. I can also celebrate VJ day knowing that we didn't start that conflict. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen because they were cites whose loss the Japanese would take notice of but would not cause the mass casualties of bombing Tokyo. Remember, Emporer Hirohito brought the shooting war to us. We just responded in kind.

And you have picked a bad country (Japan) to represent as the receiver of war time atrocities. But that is another topic. Assuming this thread isn't hijacked further.

[brianlojeck]

This thread is officially hijacked. :D

THIS THREAD IS GOING TO CUBA! DON'T LOOK AT MY FACE! EVERYBODY DOWN!
(remember when terorrists just wanted a free flight to cuba?)


I can celebrate VJ day knowing that the decision of dropping the bomb saved an estimated One million Japanese soldiers and an estimated 1.5 million american soldiers.


I thought killing soldiers was ok, as long as we left the innocents alone. Isn't that why you are so upset about a 9/11 game as opposed to a dday game?



I can also celebrate VJ day knowing that we didn't start that conflict.


Alquaida believes (the bomb-mules do anyway) that they are responding to American imperialism and hatred. it's all in your point of view sometimes.


Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen because they were cites whose loss the Japanese would take notice of but would not cause the mass casualties of bombing Tokyo.


maybe they chose the WTC because it would get our attention and cause less casualties then nuking Los Angeles. Is there now an appropriate way to kill civilians, assuming there's a way we could have killed more civilians if we wanted to?



Remember, Emporer Hirohito brought the shooting war to us. We just responded in kind.

True that.



And you have picked a bad country (Japan) to represent as the receiver of war time atrocities.


I'm not a big history buff, but they were the only ones I could think of whom we nuked.

I'll call an end to the hijacking. This will be my last post on the subject, lest cphillip shut down the thread because we keep going around and around with each other...

[cockermongol]

Quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
911
AMERICA UNDER SIEGE

WHO THOUGHT THAT IT COULD GET ANY WORSE AFTER THE BRUTAL ATTACKS THAT OCCURRED TO OUR COUNTRY ON 9/11/01. NOBODY.
NOW THAT TRAGIC DATE IS UPON US ONCE AGAIN, AND THE AL QAEDA FORCES HAVE A NEW PLAN, THE ASSASSINATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
THE AL QAEDA FORCES HAVE BEEN PLANNING THIS ATTACK FOR YEARS AND KNOW THAT IT WILL BE ANOTHER SUICIDE MISSION. THEY HAVE GATHERED THEIR TROOPS IN THE CITY OF TAYLOR, MICHIGAN AND WILL DEPLOY THEIR PLAN AT EXACTLY 10:00AM ON 9/11/04 TO COMMEMORATE THE DEVASTATION THEY BROUGHT 3 YEARS AGO.
JOIN THE SECRET SERVICE AT TAYLOR MICHIGAN ON 9/11 TO HELP STOP THESE TERRORISTS FROM KILLING THE PRESIDENT AND KEEP OUR COUNTRY SAFE FROM AL QAEDA ONCE AND FOR ALL.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think this sounds like an awesome scenario. I think a lot of you are getting offended because of its reference to September 11th, but I feel this scenario, all in all, is anything but offensive, even PATRIOTIC. I don't feel the deaths of the people on September 11th are being defaced by a mission to defend the President of the United States from terrorists any more than I think the people who died on the battlefields on D-Day are being disrespected by the reenactments of that battle. I was not able to be there to fight on D-Day - I did not have the honor to fight for my country in the most brutal war humankind has ever had. But I CAN pretend that I was, and it increases my patriotism and my feeling of fighting for what I think is right.

So I ask: How does the common man go about "getting back" at the terrorsts. Vote for Bush? (just kidding) Or does an innocent paintball game sound intriguing?

What other game (besides airsoft) can you go out on the field and get some (non-lethal) vengeance on America's enemies, be they the Nazis or the terrorists?

When you look at scenarios like this, you must understand the underlying cause. It's ironic that the very reason the majority of you would not go to such a scenario is why others would.

[Pickle]

Copy that Brian. It was fun sparring with you. Thanks for keeping it civil.

[tyrion2323]

I agree with BrianLoJeck about everything. I don't think that having DDay events is appropriate, nor do I think that WTC games are appropriate. That's why I stay the heck away from scenarios in general (maybe star wars or something...)

When you turn a war/terrorist event/murdering/etc into a game, you're laughing in the faces of everyone who died, German or American, Iraqi or British, whatever. It's disrespectful and disgusting.

[-=Squid=-]

I agree with BrianLoJeck about everything. I don't think that having DDay events is appropriate, nor do I think that WTC games are appropriate. That's why I stay the heck away from scenarios in general (maybe star wars or something...)

When you turn a war/terrorist event/murdering/etc into a game, you're laughing in the faces of everyone who died, German or American, Iraqi or British, whatever. It's disrespectful and disgusting.
Your only laughing at them if your a moron; and if you are a moron and would disrespect something like that, I would assume that you would do the same WITHOUT this scenario game.

Seriously people, stop whining.

[Rather]

A lil off topic but I wonder how people would react to a Waco Tx secnario.... I don't think I'd wanna be on the Branch Davidians side at the end though...... :eek:


:ninja:

[tyrion2323]

Your only laughing at them if your a moron; and if you are a moron and would disrespect something like that, I would assume that you would do the same WITHOUT this scenario game.

Seriously people, stop whining.

Spoken like someone who's never had to actually participate in war...

[paint magnet]

Regardless of your opinion on the subject, anyone else wondering who the hell would actually play on the terrorist side?

[skife]

And nowhere on the site was there any specific bolded mention of...
"This game is in rememberance of those who died due to the Terrorist Attacks"
"This game is to pay for the WTC organization funding"
Or anything like that, nothing. They've now deleted it from their website, but their original promotional message was


at least they arn't trying to BS you.
why not let some average person make money off the war, All the news stations are.

[-=Squid=-]

Spoken like someone who's never had to actually participate in war...
Fwoosh.

Thats the sound of the point going right over your head.

[MagAl]

I agree with BrianLoJeck about everything. I don't think that having DDay events is appropriate, nor do I think that WTC games are appropriate. That's why I stay the heck away from scenarios in general (maybe star wars or something...)

When you turn a war/terrorist event/murdering/etc into a game, you're laughing in the faces of everyone who died, German or American, Iraqi or British, whatever. It's disrespectful and disgusting.

So your saying by playing a FPS game based on WW2 is the same as standing over the graves of those that lost there lives fighting for what there country told them to and spitting on them?

[Won Hunglo]

The thought of doing a knee slide down a freshly waxed school hallway while eliminating the jocks & teachers with my trigger bouncing A4 Fly has been a dream of mine. Where can I sign up? :shooting:

[Won Hunglo]

The Waco Tx senario sounds cool. We can have a BBQ at the end.

[Evil1]

:mad: I think that this type of thing is exactly what paintball in general does NOT need. I think this whole thing may leave a bad taste in alot of people's mouths. Some may even be some people of authority who can actually make things harder for all of us players. I know a few families who actually lost relatives in the 9/11 tragedy and on top of that my late buddy's (R.I.P. J.S.) girlfriend actually lost her mother in who worked in the WTC. I don't think she would be real happy to know that there are paintball games to relive the whole thing or whatever they are doing. I live about 50 miles north of NYC and I was pretty nervous for weeks about the whole thing and I just think it is in extremely bad taste to let this whole thing happen.

[-=Squid=-]

Poor analogy:

My weiner dog fell through ice on a frozen pond and died. Im horribly offended by ice skaters.


Seriously people... this wasnt even a reenactment. It was supposed to be a followup on the happenings at nine 11. Did you guys even read the thing?

[coolcatpete]

splatter zone ran a scenerio at my local field that I ref at and it was horrible and the guy who runs everything is a complete jerk. I really hope this and splatter zone gets shut down.
Splatter zone runs really bad buissnes. They were going to come help build our field with 20 people for their scenario, and then they showed up with 3, the main guy, his wif, and is 10 year old boy. They were in charge of advertising, and they did not do so and we ended up paying for a radio commercial, then he complained to us that there was not enough advertising. He then tried to rip us off and he stole our gas. Splatter zone is really bad so for all your scenario stuff go to MXS. Boycott Splatter Zone.
Pete

[TheDuelist]

Re- creating these events is no different than the Civil War re-enactments that go on throughout the country every year. I have yet to hear anyone saying they should be stopped due to insensitivities to history and the thousands of lives lost there. While I don't agree with the 9/11 theme, I have no problem with historical re-creations based on events in the history of warfare.

[1ofkind]

Haha, we'll thats what happens when news media controls how 80% of the world thinks of things. My father joked around about this happening once a while ago, the cool thing was that alot of actual terriost would probably show up for you to play agaist, so it would be like the real thing. Look at the ww2 games, there are alot of hardcore nazis there. In my sense ultimently this a bad idea. Whoever wanted to do this has some guts.

[-=Squid=-]

Haha, we'll thats what happens when news media controls how 80% of the world thinks of things. My father joked around about this happening once a while ago, the cool thing was that alot of actual terriost would probably show up for you to play agaist, so it would be like the real thing. Look at the ww2 games, there are alot of hardcore nazis there. In my sense ultimently this a bad idea. Whoever wanted to do this has some guts.

:rolleyes:

And thats all I have to say about that.

[/forest gump]

[Pickle]

Re- creating these events is no different than the Civil War re-enactments that go on throughout the country every year.... While I don't agree with the 9/11 theme, I have no problem with historical re-creations based on events in the history of warfare.

Can you say "contradiction"? If it is no different than why do you have a problem with the theme? If you don't have a problem with historical re-creations why do you have a problem with the 9/11 game?



Look at the ww2 games, there are alot of hardcore nazis there.

WHAAAAT! :confused: Granted I have only played on the West Coast. BUt I find this statement very suspect. And how do you know they are "hardcore nazis"? What does a "hardcore nazi" look like?

This thread was beginning to get a bit old. Now, I think, it has taken an interesting turn.

[1ofkind]

WHAAAAT! Granted I have only played on the West Coast. BUt I find this statement very suspect. And how do you know they are "hardcore nazis"? What does a "hardcore nazi" look like?

Haha, we'll people camped out there and had gaint nazi flags on ther camp sites. Some were dress as officers with every bid of detail, its amazing how they were able to obtain some of these things. One guy even "skinned" his head on the middle of the game. I could go on and on.

Anyway why you trying to put a smackdown on this thread?

[Lohman446]

I looked at this, and my first response was simply that I was not attending. I have watched this thread now and I really really want to disagree with Squid and the others who have sided with him.

The problem is, every argument I can make for disagreeing with this must also be made for events like... well every military event except D day (I'll get to why I did not include this later). The fact of the matter is, everything I have to disagree with them is emotional, and I cannot come up with a good logical fact.

As pointed out above, teaching history through events that the outcome is not predetermined is a joke. The reenactors who know the outcome, know the strategies used, and play to that, using era weaponry, may be teaching history, playing paintball with 20BPS markers, 200 round hoppers, etc. does not teach about the civil war.

The fact of the matter is this... there is not a good logical explanation for this - the best I could come up with is well, the perpatrators of 9-11 are still at large, we should not be glorifying them or helping them recruit through such an event. But I fail to see how this event really does that. My disdain of this event must all be emotionally based.

Now, why did I exclude D day? Keep in mind that I am not saying this event is wrong, I emotionally disagree with it, I will not support it. This is the same stance I have with SP products - there is not a good logic based reason, I have my money and I can choose how to spend it. Don't like it :p . Now.. back to excluding D-day. D-day, in my opinion, is the epic battle of modern warfare. Both sides were heavily armed, and both were heavily supported. Both sides expected heavy losses, and both sides found heavy losses. It was the armies of the world, prepared for battle, and battling. It was deadly and many lost there life, lets never forget that. However, if we are going to recreate a battle, with either outcome possible and have reasonably "fair" teams (through numbers vs position) D-day is it, IMHO. And the reason D-day would be acceptable to me if every other was not, is that looking back in modern history, D-day is the greatest (if any battle is great) battle there was.

I must close in saying, that I do not have a problem with the idea of historical battles being themes to scenario games in general. I do have a problem with people telling me, with a straight face, how much history they teach. They may teach some.. but these are not history lessons. I can also say that I do not support or condon the use of 9-11 even though I may support other historical basis of scenario games. My reasoning is not logical in the end, it is emotional - and I have a right to that thought, even as I acknowledge the plurality with which I judge some events.

[1ofkind]

Does any1 really read those long responses? I skim them thats really all. Anyway don't turn this into a I'm right and your wrong and a sick minded freak argument. If you do you'll see a hand pop out of your computer screen and slap you across the head! (j/k don't sue me please)

[Pickle]

Haha, we'll people camped out there and had gaint nazi flags on ther camp sites. Some were dress as officers with every bid of detail, its amazing how they were able to obtain some of these things. One guy even "skinned" his head on the middle of the game. I could go on and on.

Then please do. The promoter should have asked these people to change their attire, flags or leave. When MPP and Jungle Island had their first WWII re-creation these rules were laid out flat! No one crosse dthe line.


Anyway why you trying to put a smackdown on this thread?

The thread was getting stale. Although, I have to admit, better than any pbnation thread. I like to see new ideas and thoughts.



As pointed out above, teaching history through events that the outcome is not predetermined is a joke. The reenactors who know the outcome, know the strategies used, and play to that, using era weaponry, may be teaching history, playing paintball with 20BPS markers, 200 round hoppers, etc. does not teach about the civil war...


Now, why did I exclude D day? Keep in mind that I am not saying this event is wrong, I emotionally disagree with it, I will not support it... D-day, in my opinion, is the epic battle of modern warfare. Both sides were heavily armed, and both were heavily supported. Both sides expected heavy losses, and both sides found heavy losses. It was the armies of the world, prepared for battle, and battling. It was deadly and many lost there life, lets never forget that. However, if we are going to recreate a battle, with either outcome possible and have reasonably "fair" teams (through numbers vs position) D-day is it, IMHO. And the reason D-day would be acceptable to me if every other was not, is that looking back in modern history, D-day is the greatest (if any battle is great) battle there was.

I do have a problem with people telling me, with a straight face, how much history they teach. They may teach some.. but these are not history lessons. I can also say that I do not support or condon the use of 9-11 even though I may support other historical basis of scenario games. My reasoning is not logical in the end, it is emotional - and I have a right to that thought, even as I acknowledge the plurality with which I judge some events.

No argument there.

[Pickle]

Does any1 really read those long responses? I skim them thats really all. Anyway don't turn this into a I'm right and your wrong and a sick minded freak argument. If you do you'll see a hand pop out of your computer screen and slap you across the head! (j/k don't sue me please)

Yes. Granted they can be a pain to read sometimes but let the man get his idea a cross. Besides, you are doing yourself and others a diservice by "skimming" them and then replying to what you have skimmed. One must have full knowledge to what he is fighting for or against.

[1ofkind]

The thread was getting stale. Although, I have to admit, better than any pbnation thread. I like to see new ideas and thoughts.

Okay, well you don't have to be here. I guess someone has to say that to you... :cheers:

[Pickle]

Okay, well you don't have to be here. I guess someone has to say that to you... :cheers:

LOL I think you either misunderstood me or I explained myself poorly. AO, IMO, is the best forum out there, hands down. From newbies asking "noob" questions and not getting flamed to people having extremely intelligent and thoughtful discussions on anything from physics :confused: to dirt bike racing. This thread had degraded to two viewpoints of pople saying the same thing. Sometimes in different ways. Now look where it has gone. :D . So, if you felt that I was taking a shot at this forum, I am sorry that was not my intention (see first sentence of paragraph :D ). I was actually making a negative comment on pbnation.
Other than that annoying dancing banana, this forum has nothing in common with PBN.

[Jaremy Rykker]

Perhaps you should look at this in perspective, and take a glance at similiar venues that have explored this area. Many extremely successful video games have looked directly at historical wars, and although not completely accurate, have been able to illustrate aspects of war. Let's see how the public response has been to games based off different wars.

World War One-Let's face it. These are far and few, and generally little known. The public sees little, if you want a public response, refer to World War Two.

World War Two-Honestly, the public has had little issue with this. Games like, Battlefield 1942, Allied Assault, Castle Wolfenstein, Call of Duty, and dozens of others have all been set during World War Two, and they are as much making a game of World War Two as a paintball scenario game. Even more, the public doesn't mind this, because the war wasn't controversial. It is a "we were right, they were wrong" mentality, and it is almost completely unanimous in our country.

Korea-"The Forgotten War". Personally, I find it an extremely interesting war, but tell me if you find a video game on it.

Vietnam-We start to get into issues here. Vietnam is to this day a controversial war, that we ended up losing when we withdrew, and has not yet to date been settled or justified. The country is in a terrible shape, and we effectively lost the war. Vietnam is extremely controversial, and although several new games have come out regarding Vietnam, these have been slightly more controversial in the public eye. Some look at it like Full Metal Jacket, and others have the perspective of Platoon, and between them they have all recieved varying levels of criticism, although it has been different.




The point is that World War Two is an easy war to run a scenario or "game" as you will with. It is non-controversial, and as we can see there is little public opposition to it. On the other hand, many more recent wars such as Vietnam, Operation Iraqi Freedom (not so much, but very recent), Operation Just Cause, and happenings such as 9/11, Bloody Sunday, or many of the events in the current war on terrorism are simply too controversial and touchy a topic to safely touch right now.

[TheDuelist]

My problem wit the 9/11 theme is the fact that civilians were the target. I don't have a problem with any re-creation that is based on a military operation where there are two or clearly defined (historically) opponents such as a WW2 or Civil War scenario. When it come to scenarios based on cowardly actions launched by a terrorist organization, I tend to have a problem with it.

[cockermongol]

It may just be my comprehension of this subject but... Why does everyone keep referring to this scenario as a reinactment? It's not. It is simply a scenario - a "what if" game, if you will. In this case alQaeda is attempting an assassination of the President and you are called to defend him. There are two clear sides, it is a non-civilian target, and it shouldn't offend you because it has NOTHING to do with 9/11.

[Pickle]

and it shouldn't offend you because it has NOTHING to do with 9/11.

Actually I disagree with that. Al-Queda carried out 9/11 and Al-Queda is included in this game. There are pictures of the burning twin towers on the event poster. The promoter obviously is linking the two.