Wats The Real Hype

[DaFranchise1987]

okay i got this teamate whos in love with cockers even though he hasnt shootin or own one yet, but its deff his next gun. We were arguing like always 'bout how good mags r if there not used by proteams i said its cause agd doesnt sponsor any pro teams to my knowledge and focuses more on the development of there products that advertisements or wateva and i was like untill the hairline comes out mags arent gonna be in the hype that currently surrounds paintball markers today, i said that cockers r deff part of the hype, along with timmys and angels and shockers, is this tru and if it isnt what markers r hyped up?? thkx :shooting: :cry: :cheers:

[nt2004]

they are the original hype. Personally, i beleive cockers are nice guns but they are also some of the first guns to be overhyped. Remember all the "cockers defy physics and have super flat trajectories" or the "closed bolt is more accurate" crap? Sure you do, because a lot of people still beleive it.

Cockers are nice guns but yeah, they are hyped

[Blazestorm]

I do believe it to a point.

Think about it... the closed-bolt has the ball completely still then lets out a quick burst of air onto the ball. This is going to be more accurate or have a more consistent trajectory versus if as the ball is being pushed into the barrel (while rolling) then getting blasted by air.

I believe that's why people feel cockers shoot that way, I believe it too. Even if it is not true, pick up a cocker and shoot it next to a mag, the balls will travel differently.

[nt2004]

I do believe it to a point.

Think about it... the closed-bolt has the ball completely still then lets out a quick burst of air onto the ball. This is going to be more accurate or have a more consistent trajectory versus if as the ball is being pushed into the barrel (while rolling) then getting blasted by air.

I believe that's why people feel cockers shoot that way, I believe it too. Even if it is not true, pick up a cocker and shoot it next to a mag, the balls will travel differently.

Yeah but they will end up in the same place.

[Carbon]

I believe that's why people feel cockers shoot that way, I believe it too. Even if it is not true, pick up a cocker and shoot it next to a mag, the balls will travel differently.

your kidding right? so a cocker shooting at the same fps as a mag the balls travel differently? how so?


okay i got this teamate whos in love with cockers even though he hasnt shootin or own one yet, but its deff his next gun. We were arguing like always 'bout how good mags r if there not used by proteams i said its cause agd doesnt sponsor any pro teams to my knowledge and focuses more on the development of there products that advertisements or wateva and i was like untill the hairline comes out mags arent gonna be in the hype that currently surrounds paintball markers today, i said that cockers r deff part of the hype, along with timmys and angels and shockers, is this tru and if it isnt what markers r hyped up?? thkx First off, its called punctuation. Please use it, this aint PBN.

[Blazestorm]

Feet-per-second is only the speed.

A ball rolling forward with air pushing behind it is going to have more spin then...

A ball standing still with air pushing behind it.

And no the paint will not land in the same spot, it may be within 5-10 feet of eachother, but I did some tests, same FPS, same barrel, cocker vs. mag and the cocker had shots that went farther (not all of the time) and they were FPS spikes either, had the gun on a gunstand which was on a level table shooting across a level field.

It's the way the gun shoots, we could argue for days on end, but I still believe cockers will not put as much spin on the ball compared to mags, which allows them to go farther distances.

(Farther distances could mean 3-4 inches. :p)

[Jaremy Rykker]

I conducted a basic experiment to test the theory that the operation of an open-bolt system applies a forward roll to a paintball, and I have arrived with the result of the experiment in that "No. An open-bolt system does not apply a spin to a paintball prior to the shot."

And here we go.

Hypothesis: Open-Bolt Systems create ball-spin
Materials: Red Sharpie, 15 Good Rounds of Draxxus Rec-Sport, Tippmann Model 98 Custom

Testing Procedure: I used the red sharpie and placed a red line along the seam of the paintball. After this marking had been placed on each of the fifteen paintballs, I placed them carefully in the breech of the Tippmann, certain that the seem was horizontally level. At this point, I would flatten out the gun using clamps, and place my face directly in front of the breech so that I could see any ball movement by noting motion in the red line. I would then place my hand right on the bolt, and pull the trigger, catching the bolt before it could push the ball forward. At this point, I would slowly drag the bolt forward, watching carefully for any motion in the ball, until the bolt had completely come forward and pushed in the pin on the back of the valve.

Testing Results: Of the 15 balls, none had any visible rotation. The ball seemed to recieve its motion completely from the bolt itself pushing the ball, and there was absolutely no visible rotation.

Conclusion: An open-bolt system applies no additional rotation to the ball which a closed-bolt system would not, and the nature of the system does not have an influence on the rotation of the ball.

[Jaremy Rykker]

And no the paint will not land in the same spot, it may be within 5-10 feet of eachother, but I did some tests, same FPS, same barrel, cocker vs. mag and the cocker had shots that went farther (not all of the time) and they were FPS spikes either, had the gun on a gunstand which was on a level table shooting across a level field.

Furthermore, we have noted that there are a lot of major inconsistencies which you did not control. Atmospheric conditions, wind factors, and all sorts of slight differences can cause differences in paintball flight that are far greater than even the hype might suggest open-bolt does. And we all know that hype is rarely true, and even less accurate.

You didn't account that even with perfectly setup guns at distance, there still isn't a perfectly accurate shot. We are shooting the equivalent of semi-automatic muskets, and to expect them to be natural accurate no matter how expensive they are is a fruitless hope.

So, no. Your testing is neither well-controlled, and nor is it necessarily accurate. There are hundreds of variables that very much affect paintball flight, and without a lot of specially designed equipment, there is no way you, nor I, could control these.

[Blazestorm]

A bolt doesn't move slow, as we already know with a mag, it moves incredibly fast, depending on bolt shape, the material the ball is made out of (PMI Shells have a shell that are smoother and roll better then Draxxus paint which feels more gelatin)

No test is perfectly accurate, it is impossible to have a perfect test in an imperfect world.

There is a paint stack as well, with weight on-top of the ball, when the bolt moves forward removing that stress from the top of the ball, that is yet another factor.

There are too many variables to have a test that can prove anything.

Put a cocker and a mag next to eachother and shoot them, the trajectory WILL BE DIFFERENT.

It's pointless trying to find out WHY the trajectory is different, so why bother? :p

Blaze is done... blaze walks away to go play the sport, not care what happens when you pull the trigger :D

[AcemanPB]

Well under rapid fire you can pretty much throw out any differences between open and closed bolt guns. They are both moving alot of paint really fast so there is no time for a paintball to get "settled" in. And really, how much paintball do you play when your not shooting atleast 10bps.

And this is just a guess but any spin that could be put on the ball by the bolt would be canceled out by the barrel. I know cockers "feel" different and they might look like they have a flatter trajectory from behind the gun, but from the sidelines you can tell it doesn't. Someone needs to do a heavily video taped and documented experiment to prove this. I know it won't make everyone believe but it will atleast provide some really evidence.

[Blazestorm]

You can't throw it out.

The paint is still resting for a moment before air is shot at it. Inbetween each shot the bolt is staying still.

Unless you are maxing the cockers ROF (Shooting as fast as the pneumatics can cycle) then you can throw out the effects, but until then, that effect is still there.

Plus who cares what it looks like from the side, YOU'RE the one shooting the gun, how it shoots should matter to you :p

[XbeasleyX]

uh - just my $.02 - With an open bolt the bolt accelerates very quickly and pushes the ball up to the equivalent speed, THEN hits it with the air to make it go even faster, now with the open/closed bolt scenario wouldn't this make it go further than having a completely stopped ball being hit with the same amount of air? :argh:

[AcemanPB]

uh - just my $.02 - With an open bolt the bolt accelerates very quickly and pushes the ball up to the equivalent speed, THEN hits it with the air to make it go even faster, now with the open/closed bolt scenario wouldn't this make it go further than having a completely stopped ball being hit with the same amount of air? :argh:

The bolt really doesn't do a whole lot pushing. All it does is load the next ball in the breach, it's not like the ball is getting pushed then hit with air. The air does 99% of the work.

[Blazestorm]

He beat me to it.

The bolt moves the ball what... maybe an half-n-inch into the barrel. then shoots the air, or in the mags case I believe air is released while the bolt is moving forward. :p

[Setzer]

This thread has all the answers:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=64669

Read it, read every last post, from start to end. If you do not understand it, then it is currently beyond you to grasp why a small amount of movement from the bolt will *not* effect a ball in flight at all. If you do understand it, then the answer of why it has no effect on the ball is in there.

Open bolt/closed bolt has no effect on a ball in flight. Read that thread for why. Also remember, open bolt and closed bolt just refer to the position of the bolt when the gun is at rest. All guns fire with a bolt closed.

[AGD]

And here I thought we were finally getting somewhere with all this.....

AGD

[Blazestorm]

I believe the mag has a dump-chamber that opens part-way through the bolt cycling forward so your statement of "all guns fire closed-bolt" is not true.

Hold a cocker next to a mag, shoot them and try to tell me they shoot the same. They don't.

I don't feel like arguing anymore, The trajectory is different, and arguing this crap over the internet isn't proving anything.

OMG LAST POST K :argh:

[tony3]

I know this has been talked about, but I'm still wondering, wouldn't a ball with spin travel more accurate, then one with no spin, because of wind or something. Similar to fast balls and knuckle balls in baseball. I don't really know, I usually stay out of these talks, because accuracy is the stupidest thing in paintball. Get a decent barrel, paint that matches the bore or is smaller, and is high quality, get a gun with low kick, consistent regulator and tank, and you'll have a nice gun.

[Blazestorm]

I have the best idea of all.

Get a gun you're comfortable with and spend your money PLAYING the sport. :D :argh:

[Butterfingers]

Blaze...

Trust me its physycally impossible for 2 identical balls with no rotation induced lift shooting the same velocity to travel at diffrent trajectories or ranges.

This applies in ANY environment as long as the environment in which the 2 projectiles are compared are identical.

It applies in a real world situation becuase the density of air is relatively constant when comparing 2 guns as is gravity.

If the gun is shooting the same velocity at the same angle of deparure unless the gun modifies the density of air or has anti-gravity properties... it is impossible to given 2 identical projectiles for one gun to differ in range or trajectory.

I went through 4 years of college learning about this stuff. Tape an extra 2 inches of aluminum on top of your mag then shoot it it will magically appear to shoot flatter. Its all perception.



I have tried your test... back in the days of modified paintball.

We lined up 2 guns barrels level and sighted them in. I used an I beam level to make sure that the barrels were on level planes. I checked the entire length of the barrel using the level to make sure there were no angular diffrences.

To our surprise the cocker seemed to shoot flatter. However we then chronoed it in...

The mag was shooting 265 whereas the cocker was shooting near 315!

When we brought both velocities down to around 290 on both guns sighted down the barrel and shot them both. To me they looked IDENTICAL.

To prove that it wasent our eyes we put a board around 100 feet out we moved the board in and out so the guns would produce a grouping in the center.

With the barrels lined up both guns shot near identical groups next to each other.

Moral of the story...

If your cocker seems to shoot further or flatter WATSON check your velocity!

[Blazestorm]

Lies... stop proving me wrong it makes me feel sad.

Cockers shoot farther... because the :ninja: says so!

[FallNAngel]

I believe the mag has a dump-chamber that opens part-way through the bolt cycling forward so your statement of "all guns fire closed-bolt" is not true.

Technically, neither does open bolt then... as the bolt is moving (which is linked to the hammer), the hammer is pushing on the valve. It may not move far when it's pushing on the valve, but it's still doing so.

As for closed bolt not acting the same as open bolt... alright, the bolt is stationary for ~3-6ms Not a huge difference.

In either case, any spin the bolt design may cause will be completely nullified by the barrel. When you can perform a much better test, such as in a closed environment where there's no wind, same velocity, same height, level, paint barrel match, same barrel, etc, then maybe I'll be interested in taking a look.

Tony: Yes, to a point. It depends on how much spin and in which direction. Too much spin in any direction is generally a bad thing. No spin, can cause inaccuracy though.

[xXHavokXx]

We did a bench test, a matrix won. Closed/Open has no effect on accuracy. My angel is as accurate as my cocker was or my dm4 is.



Your teammate needs to do some foot work and go shoot every gun he can from now till he buys one. That's how you decide what the best gun is.

[Setzer]

And here I thought we were finally getting somewhere with all this.....

AGD

I loved that thread in Deep Blue AGD. I just wished I was part of the community back when it started so I could of really participated. I thank you very much for that, and you did show many people out there the truth. The problem is, the people that start these arguments havn't read it, or don't understand it, while those of us that have, don't need to bring it up because there's not much else to discuss :)

[FallNAngel]

We did a bench test, a matrix won. Closed/Open has no effect on accuracy.

... if Closed/Open bolt has no effect on accuracy, how do you figure a particular gun won?

[Blazestorm]

Duh it's a matrix dude we all know those use the same Smart Parts patented technology of "Seal-Forward Technology" which makes it the most accurate gun on the market! Duh!1

My cocker I'm building will shoot farther... It's a ninja cocker... I mean really... why wouldn't it shoot farther? :ninja:

[xXHavokXx]

... if Closed/Open bolt has no effect on accuracy, how do you figure a particular gun won?


The grouping for the matrix was better..

[paint magnet]

Well under rapid fire you can pretty much throw out any differences between open and closed bolt guns. They are both moving alot of paint really fast so there is no time for a paintball to get "settled" in. And really, how much paintball do you play when your not shooting atleast 10bps.


A lot, considering my gun only holds 8 rounds ;)

With that out of the way, I'd like to say a few things. I'm sorry if I am reposting anything, but it was not intentional.

- Any spin imparted on the ball by the bolt is negated by the barrel. Remember the tests AGD did on rifled barrels? You need to get the ball spinning at several thousand rpm coming out of the muzzle in order for it to have an effect on flight or trajectory. The bolt, at best, doesn't even spin the ball a full rotation going into the barrel.

- Just because two markers (i.e., an Autococker and an Automag) have the same barrel (for argument's sake we'll say a Dye Boomstick), it doesn't make it a fair test. The Boomstick* might be a great barrel, and it might work great on one gun, but suck on the other. This is because most barrels are mass produced, and to make it for a different gun, all that is changed is the threading. According to Glenn Palmer (who has yet to give me reason to doubt anything he has said), it is very important to match the barrel to the gun's valving, moreso even than matching the paint to the bore of the barrel. So, in order to have a fair test, I think you need to have the same barrel, but one that is matched to each particular gun's valving. (such as a PPS matched brass barrel)

- You should have the same air system on both markers. This makes sense, but again may not be quite accurate due to the fact that some regulators / air systems may perform better on certain guns than on others due to airflow, pressure requirements, etc., so I'm not really sure what should be done here.

- In order to have accurate results, you would have to fire several different brands of paint through each gun, and should use the one that shot the best with that particular marker for the test. Even if it's expensive, high quality tournament grade paint, some guns seem to hate certain brands.

- Physics don't seem to care what you think or how much money you've put into your gun. My Nelspot 007 is not exactly the pinnacle of modern paintball technology, yet with it's 4" (I think?), rusted steel barrel, disposable, unregulated power source, and 17-year old seals/orings, it still shoots better than almost any gun I have ever owned, including Autocockers, Angels, and Automags. (the exceptions being a PPS Stroker, P-68 AT, etc.)

- Besides, we all know cockers shoot better. (It's the elves)

my .02 on the subject.

[than205]

The grouping for the matrix was better..


Like many here will say, that means its consistancy is better.