Why aren't dealers required to have feedback?

[the larch]

Just a general question. Seems that the regular posters are alot more likely to have a feedback thread than the dealers. I would think that anyone posting in the dealers thread would be required to start a feedback thread.
It would keep people honest, and allow assets to AO like Tunaman, Nicad and Roguefactor to shine. :)
Thoughts?

[Magglerock]

Dealers, Smiths, and Annodizers should all have feedback threads.

[1stdeadeye]

Tuna does have a feedback thread. No one bothers with it anymore since he is so good, it is not needed! ;)

[Magglerock]

Tuna does have a feedback thread. No one bothers with it anymore since he is so good, it is not needed! ;)


Yeah, but right now its volintary, not manditory. It should be required if you want to use this board to do business. No one's questioning Tuna.

[RoadDawg]

RogueFactor has one with a ton of pages of positive feedback.

[-=Squid=-]

A feedback thread should not be mandatory for anyone wanting to do business.

I didnt keep one until acouple of weeks ago, and I have done TONS of deals on here with no problems... ever.

[the larch]

Hey squid, how about a link to your feedback thread, I just got some of your macro, and it's great. Professional treatment. THanks.

What I am saying, is that to be distinguished as a "dealer" you should be required to start a signature style feedback thread. I don't think that is unreasonable. Good dealers deserve the credit and it would cut down the chances of a fly-by-night dealer snagging a new members money. While alot of us are older and been around awhile, we should look out for our newer, or younger members.
Properly moderated, I think it would also cut down on the chances of dealer thread flame wars because a person can post their thoughts, once, in a feedback thread (which is of course moderated)
It is the foundation of ebay, and works very well.

[GT]

kidding right?

You imagine what kind of butt whopping would come from AGD if a dealer was pulling the wool over someone on AO?

[the larch]

kidding right?

You imagine what kind of butt whopping would come from AGD if a dealer was pulling the wool over someone on AO?
Well, AO would only do something if they knew it was happening. A feedback thread facilitates their ability to see buyers feelings posted in one place. While many people may fear getting gangflamed if they post in a dealers active thread, posting in a moderated feedback thread doesn't hold as much threat.
A signature feedback thread also allows potential buyers who are new to AO to have a historical context to look at to discern who is and established reliable dealer.
Personally, If I were an dealer, I would jump at this idea to build site credibility.

[FutureMagOwner]

im not sure quite where you are coming from, the one bad established dealer got run outta town and then some if i recall

[Cryer]

...the one bad established dealer got run outta town and then some if i recall
whodat?

[GT]

. While many people may fear getting gangflamed if they post in a dealers active thread, posting in a moderated feedback thread doesn't hold as much threat.
.


you only get gangflamed if there is untruthful info posted. If there is a legit issue with a dealer feel free to post.

[Kevmaster]

theres no reason to force daelers on AO to have afeedback thread. everything on the net EVERYTHING is buy at your own risk...

guys like Tuna and Rouge have no problem selling because everyone knows they're good. AGD takes no responsibility for what people on ao, dealer or otherwise, offer for sale.

[the larch]

you only get gangflamed if there is untruthful info posted. If there is a legit issue with a dealer feel free to post.
Truth is a hard thing to prove on the internet, as is legitimacy. Weight of numbers, either positive or negative in a feedback thread would speak louder.
Many AO'rs feel that it is not proper to post a negative comment in a dealers active thread. It is akin to spray painting a store front. Also, feedback in an active thread clutters up ongoing business. If the dealers were linked to their feedback, a reader would have a much quicker time getting answers to questions and reading the important posts on the product. :)

[shartley]

Well, AO would only do something if they knew it was happening. A feedback thread facilitates their ability to see buyers feelings posted in one place. While many people may fear getting gangflamed if they post in a dealers active thread, posting in a moderated feedback thread doesn't hold as much threat.
A signature feedback thread also allows potential buyers who are new to AO to have a historical context to look at to discern who is and established reliable dealer.
Personally, If I were an dealer, I would jump at this idea to build site credibility.
Well, if a dealer was so worried about making the majority of their sales on AO, sure. But some dealers don’t worry about that. And in fact some dealers make up the vast majority of their sales NOT on AO, and didn’t need AO to become established nor keep them that way. That does not mean AO is not a good customer base, but it is by FAR not the beginning and end all for paintball sales nor gaining credibility in the paintball world.

I know for me personally I would not jump on the idea of a feedback thread, nor would I dismiss it or avoid it. I think they are more useful for private sales than for dealers. So as a dealer I could take it or leave it.

im not sure quite where you are coming from, the one bad established dealer got run outta town and then some if i recall
I have been on AO for quite a long time, and I don’t recall any established dealer getting run out of town.. let alone “and then some”. Did I miss something?

ADDED: Ahh, are you talking about WAS? I forgot about him.....

[the larch]

A point I would like to make:
Most of the people who are responding to this thread and questioning the validity of it's use are people who have a long history with AO and wouldn't need to look at dealer feedback threads because they already have the online experience with everyone on AO to get what they need.

A new member on the other hand really has no idea which dealers are the best to deal with and would have to sift through how many threads to find a product?
A smart dealer could always edit the header on his feedback thread to link prospective buyers back to additional threads and sites the buyer might find interesting. Also, your happiest buyers can link your feedback into their sig, and not just on AO.

Feedback threads are powerful source for good dealers, and an awesome resource for buyers.
Please look at this from the perspective of the "new to paintball kid" who wants to upgrade his new RT and was sent to AO by his teammate.

Also, the statement "everything on the internet is buy at your own risk" is one of the reasons good dealers lose sales because buyers don't know who to trust. As a buyer, I am MUCH more likely to buy from a guy with a 100 positive feedbacks in a feedback thread, than someone with none. The statement "buy at your own risk" actually puts the burden of earning trust upon the seller.
As a community which is interested in seeing the growth of a product line, it is my opinion that we should make our community as useful and as friendly as it can be to the newcomer.
I request that this not turn into any type of flamewar or such, this is a topic I feel I have thought out and I honestly feel would help AO. Thanks

[FutureMagOwner]

i was thinking of donggie, if i recall didnt he rip off like 10 people then basically got kicked off ao and i thought some people kept trying to track him down after to get their money back but my memory is hazy lol.

[cphilip]

i was thinking of donggie, if i recall didnt he rip off like 10 people then basically got kicked off ao and i thought some people kept trying to track him down after to get their money back but my memory is hazy lol.

He was never kicked off AO. He disappeared and seems left people hanging. And he had a good feedback thread for a long time until then. Just shows ya what can happen.

Most dealers have feedback threads. But its entirely up to them if they use them just like its entirely up to you if you chose to post in them. They can be taken with a grain of salt sometimes.

[AcemanPB]

Buying anything online is a gamble. You are taking a risk everytime you buy something online. With that said it should be the dealers place to create a feedback thread. If a dealer doesn't want to create a feedback thread then don't buy from him, he'll get it eventually when he is not selling anything.

[Prezents]

I agree about feedback threads.
If you are going to be buying something from anyone you should do a search and see if they have feedback, check with other people that have purchased from them and ask them.
:cheers:

[Magglerock]

kidding right?

You imagine what kind of butt whopping would come from AGD if a dealer was pulling the wool over someone on AO?


No, I don't. If I recall, Dingo screwed a lot of people over - including me - and he wasn't delivered a butt-whooping, he just disappeared. He has since recently reappeared on PBN. It doesn't just help identify scammers, it helps consumers know what to expect with regards to quality of work/product, quality of service (this is the most glaring issue), etc. I understand that its not AGD's responsability to monitor commercial activity on the board, but they could help its members out be requiring people who do use this board for business by providing a simple feed-back thread. I don't understand why there would be so much resistance to consumer empowerment coming from non-dealers (obviously, I understand the dealer hesitation). Basically, everyone who does business should have feedback - customers too. That would prevent unessicary flames or damage to dealers' reps. Just like Ebay.

[GT]

No, I don't. If I recall, Dingo screwed a lot of people over - including me - and he wasn't delivered a butt-whooping, he just disappeared. .


maybe my statement didnt make much sense. Was dingo an AGD dealer? I would hope that AGD would have enough oversite on this board to correct any gross fraud. Case in point, we have a CF dealer here on AO. when he posted that he was selling dynaflows for 225 a pop, he was contacted by CF to verify that he actually had the product.

I agree that dealer's should have some feedback, but feedback, for every transaction would be abit much. If tuna or rogue chased every transaction down with a follow up feedback thier feedback threads would be insanly long.

Now,
what would be kinda cool is to have an "approved" AGD sticky in the dealers forum. Maybe a simple list of AGD dealers on AO. I think you guys have found that more and more people view AO, likewise there are going to be more AGD dealers. Its going to get increasingly more difficult to discern GT's house of mag parts and GT's house of fraud.

[cphilip]

Dealers are independent business men that are responsible for thier own actions. AO operates seperately from AGD. AO is not in the business of doing consumer actions. It allows individuals and dealers to use its space within certain guidelines but takes no responsibilty for any transaction that ends from that. Its between you and the seller/Dealer to work out. And any legal entities that might need to be involved. Its a place to meet. Not a place that garantee's you will meet honest people. It would not be possible for us to police that. If AGD has some issue with a dealer and his dealings either here or anywhere else then thats an AGD issue and would not take place here. It would be between them and the dealer. If you as a buyer have an issue with a AGD dealer you would complain to AGD. Not AO. However you clearly can post a feedback both negative or positive here on AO. And a dealer can post a feedback on you. If you have doubts that a person is an AGD dealer you should call AGD. They will tell you. But again.... they are not taking responsiblity for that dealer conducting his business. They sell product to that Dealer and then its his responsibilty to deliver.

As far as I know Donngie was having legal action taken against him by the customers that were left stranded.

If AGD took some action that would be something between them and him and I have no knowledge of it either way.

Classifieds and Dealers sections are a service we allow. But its caveat emptor

[cphilip]

what would be kinda cool is to have an "approved" AGD sticky in the dealers forum.


Not going to happen. call AGD to check if you doubt someone is a real AGD Dealer. They come and go and the danger here is AGD is not going to endorse any dealer over another. Least they be resonsible if a dealer suddenly goes bad and here they are "approving them".

AGD requires dealers to have a place of business and a valid business license before they will sell to them.

Online Dealers build trust over time. If they are not willing to be consistent and build up that reputation the hard way then you don't want to do business with them. Simple as that. No ones going to assist them in doing that least they be partly responsible if they go bad on ya.

[shartley]

And folks need to realize that “dealer” is a loose term on the “dealer forums” here on AO. If you sell an item as a business, and not as a personal sale, you are a DEALER. “Certified Dealer”, “Dealer”, or whatever really does not matter IMHO, if the part or product being sold is the same part or product we are only talking semantics on what we call the place we got it from. It does not change the value of the product or the quality of it.

More so, the AO Dealer’s Forum is not an AGD Dealer’s Forum. It is a forum for all business sales, AGD products or otherwise.

Also as has been posted, feedback threads should be taken with a grain of salt. Popularity can drive great feedback threads but that does not mean those with NO feedback are any “worse” than any other dealer, or those with great feedback are any “better” than any other dealer. And as was pointed out, having lots of great feedback does not mean a dealer or individual will continue to be above board in their business practices.

For me personally, if I don’t have a feedback thread and someone does not want to buy from me because of it…. No problem. It is nice to have folks tell others how great you are, and even for them to tell YOU how great you are, but honestly the majority of products sold receive no such recognition…. And as long as the products sell and the customers are happy with the products/services that is what is important to me. I know others may feel differently, but that is just the way I see it.

[Magglerock]

Dealers are independent business men that are responsible for thier own actions. AO operates seperately from AGD. AO is not in the business of doing consumer actions. It allows individuals and dealers to use its space within certain guidelines but takes no responsibilty for any transaction that ends from that. Its between you and the seller/Dealer to work out. And any legal entities that might need to be involved. Its a place to meet. Not a place that garantee's you will meet honest people. It would not be possible for us to police that. If AGD has some issue with a dealer and his dealings either here or anywhere else then thats an AGD issue and would not take place here. It would be between them and the dealer. If you as a buyer have an issue with a AGD dealer you would complain to AGD. Not AO. However you clearly can post a feedback both negative or positive here on AO. And a dealer can post a feedback on you. If you have doubts that a person is an AGD dealer you should call AGD. They will tell you. But again.... they are not taking responsiblity for that dealer conducting his business. They sell product to that Dealer and then its his responsibilty to deliver.

As far as I know Donngie was having legal action taken against him by the customers that were left stranded.

If AGD took some action that would be something between them and him and I have no knowledge of it either way.

Classifieds and Dealers sections are a service we allow. But its caveat emptor


I don'tthink anyone is expecting AGD to police the dealers. All that is being suggested is that, should you want to trade on the board, you must have a feedback thread. That's not a lot to ask for. Of course its buyer be ware, but how can they be ware if they have no source of information from which to judge? No need to give the legal disclaimer; I think we all know and accept that AGD is not responsible for anything that goes on in AO. But there are forum rules that are posted, and I don't think its too much trouble to add one more: "If you plan to trade on AO, you must have a feedback thread".

[shartley]

I don'tthink anyone is expecting AGD to police the dealers. All that is being suggested is that, should you want to trade on the board, you must have a feedback thread. That's not a lot to ask for. Of course its buyer be ware, but how can they be ware if they have no source of information from which to judge? No need to give the legal disclaimer; I think we all know and accept that AGD is not responsible for anything that goes on in AO. But there are forum rules that are posted, and I don't think its too much trouble to add one more: "If you plan to trade on AO, you must have a feedback thread".
I would suggest that this is a bad policy….. you MUST have a feedback thread? Sorry, I don’t see it.

Look at all the trades and stuff sold by private individuals on AO… would you insist that each of THEM also have a feedback thread in order to make a trade or sale?

The simple truth of the matter is, that if someone is ripping folks off (be they a dealer or an individual) it is EASY to make a post about it. Just look at how many “custom shops” threads have been made recently.

I don’t think it is the responsibility of AO Admin, Staff, or even general rules, to “inform” the customer about any person or dealer. And it would only further the misconception that if someone does not have as many good feedback responses as someone else they are not as “good” as another person/dealer, or they don’t make as many sales as another person/dealer… both of which could actually be quite the opposite.

I say if it isn’t broke, don’t fix it. And from what I see now, it isn’t broke. If someone is not sure about dealing with another AO member, be they as an individual or as a business, then don’t deal with them. Or do a search using that person’s member name and see what comes up. Sometimes the customer has to take some of the responsibility for a decision and maybe do just a little leg work on their own… such is life.