The Closed Bolt Cap?

[Spartan X]

I've always been told that a closed bolt gun can not fully load paint past 25 bps. They can cycle alot faster, but that it's phisiacally imposible to load past 25 because the bolt is not open long enof to cycle fully and load a ball. Sure you can change the bolt open time but there is a limit to that cause that will slow the cycle done.

If you say it can load faster show me a video and a sound graph and prove it...if we have a open bolt doing 35 bps...why can't we get one with a colosed bolt maxing out either...(and the open bolt did not max out)

[Skoad]

force feed loaders

[tyrion2323]

Hey, Spartan -

A fellow Omen lover!

[Spartan X]

What about them?

Thats does not change the fact the the Open time is diff. you have to remember that the bolt is open for a VERY short amount of time. the balls can only travel past the poit so fast.

In a open boilt there is no closed time, it's alweays open and it only limited buy how fast the bolt can go back and forth to shoot......which is umlimited at least for a Mag.

Show me a vid with paint.

[Dayspring]

There is video & sound-graph done by White Wolf Airsmithing of our cocker doing 30+bps with paint.

look in PBnation under Electronic Cockers, PBX cocker. I think it was around Page 13.

[shatter_storm]

The mechanics should be the same when the marker is cycling at it's maximum rate. That rate is different for different types of markers - but then a paintball is *always* going to take a certain amount of time to drop into a breech. As far as I know, the only difference between a closed bolt cycling at the maximum possible rate and an open bolt cycling at the maximum possible rate is that the bolts start and stop their cycles at different positions.

Think about it - at some point in the firing cycle the bolt has to be all the way back for a paintball to drop into the breech, at the opposite point in the firing cycle the bolt has to be all the way forward to seal against the barrel and open the valve. At the absolute maximum fire rate, the bolt would be all the way forward just long enough for the paintball to leave the barrel, and the bolt would be all the way backward just long enough for a tensioned ball stack to push another ball into the breech. Everything else in the cycle is the amount of time the bolt takes to move from load to fire and back to load.

Now yes, cockers can't cycle as fast as say, a mag - but they might be able to if they could remove most of the reciprocating mass and be able to exhaust the ram's pressures faster. QEV's help the cycle rate, as do lightened bolts and back blocks, but at some point you reach a physical limitation of how fast you can move that much mass. If you take your mag apart you'll see that the only moving part is the superbolt, which is a fair bit lighter than the back block and bolt of a cocker. The Model 98 has a huge reciprocating mass in it's hammer which severely restricts how fast it can shoot - it's a good example of how weight affects cycle rate.
I don't know enough about other markers to say how their cycles work, but these are the
easiest examples.

[Dayspring]

Do what we did then. Remove all that nasty moving mass. :D


The mechanics should be the same when the marker is cycling at it's maximum rate. That rate is different for different types of markers - but then a paintball is *always* going to take a certain amount of time to drop into a breech. As far as I know, the only difference between a closed bolt cycling at the maximum possible rate and an open bolt cycling at the maximum possible rate is that the bolts start and stop their cycles at different positions.

Think about it - at some point in the firing cycle the bolt has to be all the way back for a paintball to drop into the breech, at the opposite point in the firing cycle the bolt has to be all the way forward to seal against the barrel and open the valve. At the absolute maximum fire rate, the bolt would be all the way forward just long enough for the paintball to leave the barrel, and the bolt would be all the way backward just long enough for a tensioned ball stack to push another ball into the breech. Everything else in the cycle is the amount of time the bolt takes to move from load to fire and back to load.

Now yes, cockers can't cycle as fast as say, a mag - but they might be able to if they could remove most of the reciprocating mass and be able to exhaust the ram's pressures faster. QEV's help the cycle rate, as do lightened bolts and back blocks, but at some point you reach a physical limitation of how fast you can move that much mass. If you take your mag apart you'll see that the only moving part is the superbolt, which is a fair bit lighter than the back block and bolt of a cocker. The Model 98 has a huge reciprocating mass in it's hammer which severely restricts how fast it can shoot - it's a good example of how weight affects cycle rate.
I don't know enough about other markers to say how their cycles work, but these are the
easiest examples.

[G3PB]

Open bolt electronics are quite a bit "simpler" than the closed bolt version. By adding in the extra timing, it slows it down. If you could just reverse the open bolt electronics, then it would be the same, but there is more to it. Usually a hammer has to drop after the bolt close, etc. Still, they can cycle faster than you can pull the trigger so it makes me wonder why everyone is so concerned about it's BPS cap.

[Cool fool!]

closed bolts are more accurate right...? but why??? :confused:
iz the automag a closed bolt marker??

[matt-o]

:eek: no to both!.... if your actually serious

[Adrenaline_Junkie]

I just knew someone was gonna say that^^^ :rofl:

Where do people get those ideas or thoughts??? PBN??? :rofl:

[Spartan X]

OK yah Mcot made a thread about it on pbn cause I pissed him off I guess. I wanted him to show me a video...and a guy posted a vid of a race doing 30, so now I beleive.

Guess the 25 cap from from a while back and never really got updated as we got the faster loaders.

[trevorjk]

closed bolts are more accurate right...? but why??? :confused:
iz the automag a closed bolt marker??


sorry everyone flamed you...

but as for accuracy it all depends on the Paint to Bore match. if you have a 10$ barrel with a perfect .691 bored and you have a $100 boomstick with the same exact .691 bore and you use the same exact paint of lets say perfect spherical shape the accuracy will be the same. givin perfect conditions such as perfect paintballs perfect bore size perfect whether (ie no wind) and perfect consistant fps over the chronograph.

and yes it is true to say that a brass eagle stingray under perfect condition will be just as good accuracy wise as any cocker

[trevorjk]

and heres a vid to look at

http://www.pbxbattlezone.com/Movies/PBX2.wmv

[abunkerer]

^^true true...It is all about "consistency": in this case it is the gun's ability to reproduce similar outcome. What helps most is a good paint/barrel match, and regulators that keep air supplied to the marker at the exact right psi.
also the mechanics of the gun can be a factor...if the gun Kicks like a mofo then the shot groupings will be less precise/consistent because the gun is moving around more..a quarter inch of movenent at the barrel can mean many yards down the field.
This might be where people got the Closed bolt is more accurate idea, because the bolt is at rest when fired, then it cycles...it kicks less than some open bolt markers (automag) available when the whole autococker automag argument was in full effect (early/mid nineties). plus the way that the cockers were regulated, they had good/consistent chrono readings people could/can get their markers to read 295 295 295 294 295 over the chrono.
the few guns like the autococker and excaliber that are closed bolt are designed well and are very consistent, they gave the closed bolt design the "reputation" of being more accurate. Those guns are more accurate/consistent than most open bolt guns...but it isnt because of the bolt, its due to psi regulation and mechanical quality.

[Steelrat]

As soon as I get my excal im going to try to get it to bounce like my viking, and then we will see. I though that on the excal, at least, there was a slight delay between the firing and the bolt moving back to prevent blowback. If so, that time can be eliminated, since force fed loaders make blowback a moot point.

[Chronobreak]

closed bolts are more accurate right...? but why??? :confused:
iz the automag a closed bolt marker??



this is the kid who lost his trix right? :tard:

[M-a-s-sDriver]

I have a Morlocked Excal. You can bounce it and it tends to burp every 5th or 6th shot at Maximum BPS. The Morlock board is highly programmable, but I have not taken the time to adjust the open/close times and correlate them with the dwell. Froth did the work on this beast,and he told me it was not quite tuned to it's maximum potential. I'm headed to Pump day tom. in Sac, but maybe one of these days I will have it at WAP. It might be Pandora'ed by then.
Brent.