Looks like Glen Palmer might throw his hat in ...

[slasherdan]

Here's a link to a letter he submitted to K2 and WGP ...

http://www.actionmarkers.com/amNews/amNewsArchiveGlennK2.htm

[Automaggin2]

Yea, I just read that. GO Glenn. :headbang:

[Jack & Coke]

Awesome!!! :shooting:

[AGDlover]

bye bye cockers! hello magness

[slasherdan]

If they're pissing their pants when they realize how pooched they could be if he pushes it.

[Snertz]

Owned! :hail: :tard:

[ß?µ£ §mµ®ƒ]

I'd give him a Hell Yeah!

[temps]

I'd Like to see the response to that letter :P

Also.. I'm guessing the was done because of what K2 has been doing..?

[1stdeadeye]

Go Glenn!!!!

That is awesome!!!

K2 can you say oops? :eek:

[rkjunior303]

He really should push it, especially since he has the grounds to do so. Now that a BIG company can be pushed around, the tables should very well be turned on them for a while.

[personman]

Hahaha
Thats awesome..

[Miscue]

Yay! :dance:

[vf-xx]

hrm, I wonder if my RACE can be mounted on a Typhoon.....

[Muzikman]

hrm, I wonder if my RACE can be mounted on a Typhoon.....

Actually it can, but it takes a bit of custom work. If you are seriosuly thinking about it, talk with Doc Nickel (I know you love him so much).

[TDonovan]

Nice! Go Palmer!

[slasherdan]

I wonder if he patented the stuff he mentions.

I'm curious as to what sort of trouble WGP has created for him and other small companies in the past that he mentioned.

Waiting to see if he jumps on and lets me know!!! :headbang:

[WenULiVeUdiE]

:clap: :dance:

It feels good to know that people are standing up for what is truely their's even though they could loose a substantial amount of money over this. I give much credit to Glenn for standing up to a company such as K2/WGP, and of course, inventing the "auto-cocking sytem".

[WARPED1]

It's about time Glenn spoke up for himself since, allegedly, Jeff Orr stole the only working prototype"Autococker"(Camille) from Glenns luggage.

[LittlePaintballBoy]

Can someone please give me that in MSWord form, or just copy and paste please? My Computer Flips out all ninja style whenever I open Acrobat Reader.

[Tyger]

**snickers**

Paintball just got a LOT more interesting.... :spit_take

this is going to be an INTERESTING winter!

-Tyger

[Dayspring]

Here ya all go.



June 28, 2004
Trent C. Keisling
Keisling Pieper & Scott PLC
1 East Center Street, suite 217
Fayetteville, Arkansas 72707
Re: Intellectual Property Holdings, Your File No. 012964

Dear Sir:
My name is Glenn Palmer; owner/operator of Palmers Pursuit Shop, which was established in
1987 but has remained a relatively small, service based, operation that also manufactures many
products relevant to the situation at hand. Specifically, the auto-cocking, pneumatic system that your
client, Worr Games Products, would like for us to believe they have intellectual rights to. In short, I
am the one that invented, developed and produced the auto-cocking system, mechanisms and some of
the individual components that were adapted for use on/in the Paintball gun now known as the
Autococker ™. As such, the true owner of some “valuable intellectual properties”.

After my review of a letter from you to Action Markers, I was thoroughly dismayed by the
nefarious nature of its content. While I certainly understand one’s desire to protect their property in
this industry, I cannot overlook the fact that your client has long been intentionally and knowingly
copying my products and developments, as well as those of several others in and outside of the
Paintball industry, thus causing “excessive customer confusion” that can no longer “continue
unabated”.

Given the present set of circumstances, I find threats of expensive litigation in the Federal
Courts, to be utterly reprehensible so I must openly refute all unreasonable claims of “proprietary
technologies” and “intellectual property” made by anyone representing or affiliated with the Worr
Games Products organization, made for the purpose of creating hardships for others in the business of
Paintball. Unfortunately, K2 bought into the same misrepresentations that the folks at WGP have been
promoting for about 14 years now, which has in fact brought significant financial loss to me and
others.

From my layman’s point of view, it seems that you need to reevaluate your position in regards
to the assets that were gained in the acquisition of Worr Games Products Inc. . It may just be that K2
and their new affiliates are actually infringing on MY intellectual properties and might consider this as
a demand to cease and desists doing so.

Should you or any of your clients wish to discuss this in greater depth, I can be reached at my
place of business between the hours 2:00 and 6:00 PM, Pacific time, most weekdays. See letterhead
for contact information. I look forward to your prompt response.
Sincerely,
Glenn E. Palmer

[DiSoRdeR]

What will result from this? :confused: I understand what it is saying, but do not know what will happen...

[teufelhunden]

Typos/etc. always make for a professional letter.

[WARPED1]

Maybe Glenn will finally get the credit he desearves for inventing the "Autococker".................

[Dayspring]

It's like this...

Smart Parts is going around saying "We have a patent and were the first people to use electronics to fire a paintball gun. Nobody else can use it without paying us $." Imagine if somebody comes up and says "Guess what, I did it before you did; your patent is bogus, pay ME $."

Glenn is doing that to K2. :) If he presses it, he can invalidate all of K2's lawsuits against all these other people b/c K2 says "We did the first auto-cocking system." And Glenn's sitting there going "Think again."

[vonort]

Wow... now I have a little more insite to the matter.. I'm starting to reconsider my stance on autocockers. Damn should have bought that ULE when I was considering my purchases or the blazer. Hmmm might have an '03 VF cocker for sale soon. I knew there was some backstabbing in this industry. But I have never known the extent of it. Been playing for 18 years and I'm still learning something every day. Give them hell Glenn. :shooting:

:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :cheers:

[WARPED1]

I'm sure Glenn has all the dates he invented the system recorded somewhere. I really hope Glenn sticks it to K2...............

[Lohman446]

I think this was a shot across the bow (sp)... basically a comment to back off rather than a threat of pending legal acton

[punkncat]

Glenn is about to hold them over a fire and ROAST some _ _ _.

This whole thing is really rediculous. All these years everyone has been copying everyone else , just doing what they could to get their piece of the pie. No one saw fit to patent their products or to enforce the patents if they had them. Everyone was doing well based on their merits as a company and customer loyalty. Those that sucked didn't make it.

Leave it to a lawyer to mess up a good thing.


GO GLENN !

[Brophog]

I don't think he has any plans to push it. Glenn isn't after money or fame, if he was, he'd have pushed the subject a long time ago. He just wants K2 to realize that they, in trying to force other people out for intellectual property that they do not have, are wrong, and as such, K2 needs to realize this and cease.

That's all that letter is trying to do.

[WARPED1]

I think this was a shot across the bow (sp)... basically a comment to back off rather than a threat of pending legal actonProbably, but maybe he should press it a little, get the respect he desearves!

[Empyreal Rogue]

Typos/etc. always make for a professional letter.

Too bad there aren't any typos... I thoroughly checked through the letter and found none. I checked twice, in fact. But good try.

Like Brophog said, Palmer is only trying to calm the situation. K2 is enforcing something that isn't theirs to enforce and Glenn is putting an end to it. Though I would love to see Glenn push K2 around. Maybe even patent his idea and only charge WGP/K2 extra for producing the marker. Now THAT would be a slap in the face.

[hitech]

I'm sure Glenn has all the dates he invented the system recorded somewhere.

And some of us OLD guys can testify to those dates! I saw his prototypes LONG before the autococker came out. :shooting: :cheers:

[WARPED1]

...but palmer cant prove it..


I'm sure he can................ he's a smart man, after all, he invented autococking technology.

[MrWallen]

Ok, call me weird but this whole lawyer situation seems reminiscient of the Last Samurai plot. First, the paintball industry (ie the Japanese) have practices based on honor and stuff, then the lawyers (ie Western Civilization) comes over and starts messing things up.
Don't know why it matters, just something I was randomly thinking of.

[BlackHalo]

Glenn has mentioned many times that he has the 'previous art' to prove his claims. He just never needed or bothered to use it. Patents can be invalidated.



tell you the truth it doesnt matter unless palmer's name is on the patent...

lawyers dont care about people that stand up and say "HEY I INVENTED THAT!!!!!!" ...what they do care is the name on the patent...if im wrong please correct me if i am...i am a bit tired from work...Budd Orr's name is on the Autococking patent....with that said...that's all that matters in the legal world...unless palmer can prove that he truly invented the Autocking system and prove that Budd orr's patent is a P.O.S there's nothing anybody can do ...

all palmer is basically doing is crying and moaning about how Budd Orr stole his ****...but palmer cant prove it..so he writes letters like these to heal his tired old wounds...

not trying to flame palmer ...but unless he can prove it in a court of law...his letter is just that...a letter

[teufelhunden]

Too bad there aren't any typos... I thoroughly checked through the letter and found none. I checked twice, in fact. But good try.





cease and desists

there's one for ya right off the bat.

[ilikePB]

tell you the truth it doesnt matter unless palmer's name is on the patent...

lawyers dont care about people that stand up and say "HEY I INVENTED THAT!!!!!!" ...what they do care is the name on the patent...if im wrong please correct me if i am...i am a bit tired from work...Budd Orr's name is on the Autococking patent....with that said...that's all that matters in the legal world...unless palmer can prove that he truly invented the Autocking system and prove that Budd orr's patent is a P.O.S there's nothing anybody can do ...

all palmer is basically doing is crying and moaning about how Budd Orr stole his ****...but palmer cant prove it..so he writes letters like these to heal his tired old wounds...

not trying to flame palmer ...but unless he can prove it in a court of law...his letter is just that...a letter
He can prove it. Anyone that knows anything about paintball history knows that Glenn invented the auto cocking system, not Bud. He has many witnesses and documents to prove that he was the inventor, not Bud Orr.

[hitech]

Okay, here is an excerpt from Glenn's web site. You can decide for yourself.

I began putting "Camille" together in early August 1988 and it became a working model in Sept. '88. However, I didn't get a couple of bugs worked out of the automation system, namely the switch (4-way valve) and timing setup until late October...That is when it went into full time service but it did not look the way it does now until June, 1989...

It is my first semi that worked. My first attempt at a semi was very early in 1988. It was based on the "blow back" concept applied to a PMI pistol. That concept was quickly abandoned by me because it would have required that it be force fed, by a spring, from the standard magazine tube on top of the gun and it also turned out to not be very reliable or consistent in operation. I wanted to have a closed bolt system so I had to figure out a way to get the bolt to stop momentarily at the rear so the balls would have time to drop into place.

In all honesty here, I got the idea for my automation system from David Craig who was Mat Brown's partner in what was then Adventure Game Supplies, now TASO. He had a really strange looking prototype of an automated Sheridan at a tournament in New York. (it incorporated a very large regulator from a oxygen tank for welding torch and a 2-way valve hooked to a 1" dia., spring return cylinder)... The second one that I built was a double barreled version in a pistol format that wasn't a conversion but built entirely from scratch... Well, three months and $900.00 later I presented Dan with HUGO (the only hurricane that I could think of that was "badder" than Camile. Some of the things I learned from building HUGO led to my deciding to go ahead and begin building the Hurricane on a limited production basis.

Do you think it could qualify as *the* first semi-auto?

I think it qualifies as the first FUNCTIONAL, GRAVITY FED semi auto. Others have told me that they were working on a semi at about the same time but I have not seen anything that worked... Tippman's SMG came out in 1987 I believe, but I never did see it as an effective piece. The joke around here, even before Camille, was that using the SMG just made you a better target and easier to find... Balistically, the .62 cal paint just couldn't cut it and they didn't go to the .68 cal semi SMG until late '89 and the .68 Special (gravity fed) didn't show up until mid-1990. About the same time as the PMI-3. Both, the 68 Special and the PMI-3 were both introduced as prototypes at the first Bay City open in Vallejo in July 1990... I am fairly certain that Camille is the oldest living Gravity Fed semi. Gravity feed is the distinction that I claim "firsts" in along with "functional". I don't claim to have invented the first semi ; my claim is to have developed the system that made semi-auto a reality to this sport. I proved that gravity feed and semi-auto was possible and certainly the paintgun of the future, when most were telling me that it wasn't possible for gravity to keep up with the gun.

[ilikePB]

If he can...wouldn't he have had already? Shoot i know if i could prove it and somebody else has a patent on MY works and ideas...i would be working night and day to nullify that patent and have royalty fees...ESPECIALLY if im a small company...as royalties would insure the livelyhood of the company..i mean from what i know its been a LONG time running betweeing Budd Orr and Palmer...So apparantly palmer hasnt proved it yet...and he's had alot of years to do so...and again i say unless his name is on the patent it doesnt matter what palmer says...because K2 like SP they're pulling a smart business move wether you like it or not...becuase K2 inherited WGP's intellectual rights they technically ARE the owners of the Autococking technology...and can do what ever they want because of this ..and again i say ...Palmer's letter ..is just that.. a letter...
He hasn't because he isn't a money grubbing whore. Now that K2 is screwing other companies with there patent he's gunna help the other little guys out.

[hitech]

If he can...wouldn't he have had already? Shoot i know if i could prove it and somebody else has a patent on MY works and ideas...i would be working night and day to nullify that patent and have royalty fees..

Just because you would, doesn't mean someone else would. Glenn's work PROVES (via PRIOR ART) that any patent that K2 MAY HAVE (I don't believe they have a patent) is not valid. Also, Glenn showed his prototypes to LOTS of people. He has a lot to backup his claims.

[ilikePB]

I don't know, I might be wrong, but I think Glenn Palmer can do something about this, I guess we'll see.

[hitech]

personally i think if palmer can do that invalidate his patent..and be the rightful owner of the autococking technology then all power to him...it would rock the paintball industry..and SP would possibly stop their nazi rampagae...

SP's patent does NOT have anything to do with Glenn's work. If it did I would have been lobbing him hard to do something with it. :eek:

[Muzikman]

ahh i hate to double post..id otn even know if i am..but i just saw this post right after i posted my previous post...

but in response to that...if he has had "previous art" to prove his claims...then why doesnt he present that to invalidate Orr's patent and LEGALLY have a cease and desist against K2....the way i think K2 see's his letter is that he has no legal backing to his case...so they will dismiss it in mere seconds...and continue with what they are doing because it is their right to do so being now they are the intellectual owners of the Autococking technology.

personally i think if palmer can do that invalidate his patent..and be the rightful owner of the autococking technology then all power to him...it would rock the paintball industry..and SP would possibly stop their nazi rampagae...


You are missing one VERY big thing...Bud Orr DOES NOT have a patent on the "Autococking" system. What Bud Orr has is a copyright/trademark on the name "Autococker". There is NO patent out there for the operation of an autococker (or the semi-auto Palmer guns).

[Destructo6]

Neither of them have a patent to enforce. "No more than one year after coming to market" was about 13 years ago.

Glenn's claim could muddy the waters enough to make winning in court against AM look highly questionable to K2. Glenn's threat of a "cease and desist" would ruin WGP or set up a court battle that neither want. Hopefully, they'll back off.

This sort of thing, unfortunately, is what happens when real money is brought into a previously small time industry. A handshake and one's word no longer cut it.


The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
Bill Shakespeare

[lord1234]

/me orders a stroker from glenn.

[WARPED1]

If he can...wouldn't he have had already? Shoot i know if i could prove it and somebody else has a patent on MY works and ideas...i would be working night and day to nullify that patent and have royalty fees...ESPECIALLY if im a small company...as royalties would insure the livelyhood of the company..i mean from what i know its been a LONG time running betweeing Budd Orr and Palmer...So apparantly palmer hasnt proved it yet...and he's had alot of years to do so...and again i say unless his name is on the patent it doesnt matter what palmer says...because K2 like SP they're pulling a smart business move wether you like it or not...becuase K2 inherited WGP's intellectual rights they technically ARE the owners of the Autococking technology...and can do what ever they want because of this ..and again i say ...Palmer's letter ..is just that.. a letter...
No, he made more money by selling 3ways and LPR's because WGP couldn't build a good one.............

[eNder159]

You are missing one VERY big thing...Bud Orr DOES NOT have a patent on the "Autococking" system. What Bud Orr has is a copyright/trademark on the name "Autococker". There is NO patent out there for the operation of an autococker (or the semi-auto Palmer guns).


HAHAAHAHAHA :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

thank you! although you came in to late =oT in my first post i quote




if im wrong please correct me if i am...i am a bit tired from work...Budd Orr's name is on the Autococking patent....


i wouldve stopped the madness.../sigh ..im gonna go delete those posts because you just shutted me up LoL

i stand corrected...

[ramennoodles]

makes me glad i sold my autococker this morning, man, i'm rooting for glenn.

[_tMAN]

Glenn Kicks *** :dance: :dance: :dance: :shooting: :shooting: :shooting:

[Lohman446]

Neither of them have a patent to enforce. "No more than one year after coming to market" was about 13 years ago.

Glenn's claim could muddy the waters enough to make winning in court against AM look highly questionable to K2. Glenn's threat of a "cease and desist" would ruin WGP or set up a court battle that neither want. Hopefully, they'll back off.

This sort of thing, unfortunately, is what happens when real money is brought into a previously small time industry. A handshake and one's word no longer cut it.


What he has is trade dress... or whatever WGP tried to bludgeon AM with. They opened the can up... but to me anything that has a moving backblock, stacked tube design closed bolt confuses me and I cant tell teh difference, I just assume there all made by palmers and must be as good :rolleyes: Same with single tube things confusing me and taking advantage of AGDs rep... I hope K2 is forced to play nice or bend over

[Empyreal Rogue]

there's one for ya right off the bat.

Sorry but "cease" "and" "desists" are are spelled correctly. All my spell check applications, including my dictionary, all approve of "desists". If you're referring to the 's' at the end of desist Glenn would be talking about the cease and desist orders given by K2/WGP. As in multiple cease and desist orders.

Since that's "right off the bat" show me the others you found.

[teufelhunden]

No, read the sentence. Correct word would be desist, not desists.

If you want more, look around.

[Smoke]

No, read the sentence. Correct word would be desist, not desists.

If you want more, look around.


It's 1 freakin' typo, my God..... :rolleyes:

And yes, there is only one typo. His spelling and grammar are correct, save for the extra "S" on desist.

[warbeak2099]

Glen probably won't put WGP out of business or make them pay him royalties, but he could very well end this foolishness. That would take care of one major problem in the industry.

Now if Mike Cassidy could just prove that he made the first electro! Or we could hope that WDP kicks SP's *** in their lawsuit. That would certainly put an end to the bs... unless WDP gets greedy. But let's just hope that doesn't happen.

[minimag03]

Go Glenn!! :headbang:

[Ratzo]

That was a sweet read, way to go Glenn.

[SCpoloRicker]

**DISCLAIMER: On an emotional level, I fully support Glenn Palmer's effort to stop all of the lawsuits and patent enforcement issues currently occuring. I mean this only as a comment on the sad state of affairs**

I hope somebody knows a good lawyer. K2 is an extremely large organization, and they have bought out companies in a wide range of industries/sports/hobbies. I would believe that they have a large cadre of lawyers ready and rarin' to go.

If SP could push through a patent enforcement on all electronic trigger frame based systems, due to the purchase of PneuVenture distribution (which was 1997-ish?), it's not much of a leap to say WGP established the pneumatically operated, closed bolt, "auto-cocking," pump gun system.

K2 > SP

Good luck Glenn.

[DiSoRdeR]

Am I the only one who does not know who K2 is? :confused: :(

[warbeak2099]

Big outsider corporation that purchased BE/Viewloader/JT USA and WGP. Mucho dinero...

[DiSoRdeR]

Big outsider corporation that purchased BE/Viewloader/JT USA and WGP. Mucho dinero...
When did this happen? :confused: :eek: :confused:

[StormSurge]

WOW............... OMG that is the coolest thing that I have heard in a long time. I would love if Glenn would just wipe his @$$ with their patents. LONG LIVE BLOW FORWARD. LONG LIVE AUTOMAG. LONG LIVE AGD.

[scrumpy]

As awesome as this sounds, what if Palmer gets shut down hardcore? That would be embarrasing as....I'm not saying it's likely, but you know, what if?

[Jack & Coke]

from:http://www.paintmagazine.com/cgi-bin/cutecast/cutecast.pl?forum=8&thread=15634


Originally posted by GP@PPS

Originally posted by Brophog


I don't think he has any plans to push it. Glenn isn't after money or fame, if he was, he'd have pushed the subject a long time ago.

He just wants K2 to realize that they, in trying to force other people out for intellectual property that they do not have, are wrong, and as such, K2 needs to realize this and cease.

That's all that letter is trying to do.


EXACTLY RIGHT !!!!

I could not have described it any better.

Proving my point beyond any reasonable doubt will be no problem at all and Bud knows it.

Yes, two prime pieces of evidence have been stolen but I could easily replicate them if need be and there is a lot more where those came from anyway. Even just dated magazine references would meet the burden of "a perponderance" of the evidence.

K2 has not yet responded and I kind of doubt they will. I don't think they want what I know and can proove, to become a matter of fact in the public record; and there is little that would give me greater satisfaction.

No, I didn't patent the automation system or any of the component designs but I did try to make sure that no one else could patent any of it legitimately either.

"and that's all I have to say about that".

[Mckevern]

WOW............... OMG that is the coolest thing that I have heard in a long time. I would love if Glenn would just wipe his @$$ with their patents. LONG LIVE BLOW FORWARD. LONG LIVE AUTOMAG. LONG LIVE AGD.

Excuse me .... Long live Palmer Pursuit!!!

[Mckevern]

Big outsider corporation that purchased BE/Viewloader/JT USA and WGP. Mucho dinero...


I wonder if that includes Challenge Park Extreme ....

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

we should have a parade :)

[Muzikman]

I wonder if that includes Challenge Park Extreme ....


The BE, JT and ViewLoader buy out all happened before CPX was under BE control

[spantol]

I wonder if that includes Challenge Park Extreme ....

Sure does. You can see a list of everything under the K2 umbrella here: http://www.k2inc.net/

[MiniSpdRcr]

I have a cocker that I am building myself. I dont like any out there, plus the only WGP part I am using...is...well nothing...I used a lot of Glenns stuff on it. I know what WGP did, and do not support it. But that doesnt mean I dont like the gun he made. Thats why I have both AGD and WGP.

[G3PB]

The real points are these. Some of us were threatened with suit over trademark violations, some of us over other matters. The letters from K2's attorney's were hazzt at best since they really didn't know what they were doing. When I responded to my suit letter, I informed them that I will comply with the trademark violations since they are technically due those. Other items, such as trade dress, etc, etc, I politely told them I would not comply with since they have no bearing, no application, no meaning to me whatsoever. Mainly because most of what I was accused of, I didn't do, so that told me they did not have a clue.

I emailed back and forth with AM and told them I'd ignore it since they were full of crap, but only to comply with the technical aspects of the trademark use of "Autococker"(tm) :)

The trademarks cannot be denied so we really have no choice on those. As far as complete markers, which is what they are really after, they do not have a leg to stand on as Glenn pointed out, they didn't invent the bloody thing anyway and we all saw how WGP's suit against AKA turned out.

Glenn could really no more sue them than they could clone manufacturers. He knows this but his intent seems to be to inform K2/WGP that if push comes to shove, he has the proof to make them back down......

[slasherdan]

I was always wondering if Glen was going to say something to them ... :headbang:

This goes out to him ....

:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail:

And this to K2 and SP ....

:nono: :nono: :nono: :nono:

[Paladin]

It's about time Glenn spoke up for himself since, allegedly, Jeff Orr stole the only working prototype"Autococker"(Camille) from Glenns luggage.


WHOA !!!!!! Don't go there.
Yes, Camille was stolen from my truck right after an event in So Cal but I have no clue as to who took it.

Besides, Camille was not the "prototype for the 'cocker" as it was arranged a bit differently.
Another gun, a double barreled, pistol format piece, which was actually the 4th semi that I built, was the one that was configured in the format that later was built into the 'cocker. Right down to the front mounted pneumatics and a sliding trigger. That was the actual piece that used to help Bud understand how to make it work on his equipment. That too was stolen from my 5th wheel trailer at an event, also in SoCal, about 3 months before Camille was stolen. Fortunately, I still have a few paintguns around here that were built in that same configuration, as well as some other Hurricanes (Camille style) that all date back to well before WGP figured out how to make it work.

[ghideon]

Man Glenn, is it me or do you get a lot of stuff stolen?

I guess it does suck to be popular...


WHOA !!!!!! Don't go there.
Yes, Camille was stolen from my truck right after an event in So Cal but I have no clue as to who took it.

Besides, Camille was not the "prototype for the 'cocker" as it was arranged a bit differently.
Another gun, a double barreled, pistol format piece, which was actually the 4th semi that I built, was the one that was configured in the format that later was built into the 'cocker. Right down to the front mounted pneumatics and a sliding trigger. That was the actual piece that used to help Bud understand how to make it work on his equipment. That too was stolen from my 5th wheel trailer at an event, also in SoCal, about 3 months before Camille was stolen. Fortunately, I still have a few paintguns around here that were built in that same configuration, as well as some other Hurricanes (Camille style) that all date back to well before WGP figured out how to make it work.

[G3PB]

Glenn, did Colin do his AutoSpirit before or after Bud did the Cocker ?

[Paladin]

Glenn could really no more sue them than they could clone manufacturers.


Actually, that is not entirely accurate. I do have a few options of litigation available to me in that regard as the terms "Intellectual Property", Intelectual Capacity and "propriatary technoligies" have been made a significant part of their case.
There are others that have been infinged on as well and one company that may not even know it, yet.




He knows this but his intent seems to be to inform K2/WGP that if push comes to shove, he has the proof to make them back down......

That's about the size of it.

[Paladin]

Glenn, did Colin do his AutoSpirit before or after Bud did the Cocker ?

After.

[Igotu]

My prayers are with you glenn.

[G3PB]

After.

That's what I thought, thanks......I have two of those old things. It was lots of fun to hose them until they fell apart :)

[G3PB]

Actually, that is not entirely accurate. I do have a few options of litigation available to me in that regard as the terms "Intellectual Property", Intelectual Capacity and "propriatary technoligies" have been made a significant part of their case.
There are others that have been infinged on as well and one company that may not even know it, yet.



Ok, I can see that, sure. They have no right to claim it if it was not theirs to begin with. That's my problem. I'm still sitting on my release letter from K2. I admit to the trademark violations, but I'm having a hard time admitting to something I did not do; so I'm not sure what I'll do with it.

[Muzikman]

That's what I thought, thanks......I have two of those old things. It was lots of fun to hose them until they fell apart :)

Wait, you have two AutoSpirits? Wanna sell one?

[Paladin]

Personally, I don't see much validity in their trademarks either because they (WGP) didn't coin the terms in the first place. However, I'm not qualified to offer legal advise on such matters.
I would consider editing that release letter into something that you are comfortable with and send it along.

[G3PB]

Personally, I don't see much validity in their trademarks either because they (WGP) didn't coin the terms in the first place. However, I'm not qualified to offer legal advise on such matters.
I would consider editing that release letter into something that you are comfortable with and send it along.


That's what I was thinking...crossing out the parts I feel do not apply.....

[G3PB]

Wait, you have two AutoSpirits? Wanna sell one?

The only one I'd be willing to sell is not totally complete. Missing parts are easy to get. It's missing the front pneumatics, timing rod, ram clevis (have to be made), cocking screws, barrel, and the front shroud. Oh, and you'd have to make the wire detent and come up with a detent screw and a few others.....so I basically have the body, complete grip frame, front block, and most internals.....oh yeah, I used the valve in another gun. Power tubes are avasilable but you'll have to dig up the nut and the cup seal. And I still wouldn't take less than $250.00 for it :(

[PaintballSmurf13]

Smart Parts all over again is all I can say... Palmer's is a great shop and it would kill me to see WGP and K2 somehow win this, as EVERYONE knows that HE is in fact the creator of auto-cocking guns.
-Ryan

also... I plan on getting a Stroker built eventually :headbang: :clap:

[MiniSpdRcr]

Well since I am also on WGP I also added this topic on their forums. Most of them agree with what we have been saying here.

The WGP posts here (http://www.wgppress.com/viewtopic.php?t=36417)

[GT]

I am sorry guys but right and wrong have little to do with each other in this case. Its pretty simple, take the small guy to court untill he runs out of money and closes up shop.

Heck,
Tom even has a few patents that would have saved a few companys' bacon if they had been protected since day one. To late lesson learned lets not let it happen again.

[Paladin]

Right and wrong, is the only part of it as far as I'm concerned.
What is going on now is just plain WRONG and I feel obliged to try to help it be a little more RIGHT for almost everyone involved.
I've just never been one to stand by and let WRONG go unchallenged when I have the means to do something about it.

[BlackHalo]

Sounds about right to me


Right and wrong, is the only part of it as far as I'm concerned.
What is going on now is just plain WRONG and I feel obliged to try to help it be a little more RIGHT for almost everyone involved.
I've just never been one to stand by and let WRONG go unchallenged when I have the means to do something about it.

Main Entry: pal·a·din
Pronunciation: 'pa-l&-d&n
Function: noun
Etymology: French, from Italian paladino, from Medieval Latin palatinus courtier, from Late Latin, imperial official -- more at PALATINE
1 : a trusted military leader (as for a medieval prince)
2 : a leading champion of a cause

Sorry, I don't suck up normally but I just heard my MGMO Hurricane is on it's way out so I'm a little happy.

[dyeguy65]

Wow... now I have a little more insite to the matter.. I'm starting to reconsider my stance on autocockers. Damn should have bought that ULE when I was considering my purchases or the blazer. Hmmm might have an '03 VF cocker for sale soon. I knew there was some backstabbing in this industry. But I have never known the extent of it. Been playing for 18 years and I'm still learning something every day. Give them hell Glenn. :shooting:

:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :cheers:

totally unnecissary(sp) to reconsider your stance on autocockers. dont consider this as being another smart parts issue. glenn is just standing up for what is technically his. he isnt snide and kaniving(sp)its not like every autococker now is infected with K2 evilness :p

go get em Glenn :headbang:

[Digits]

Actually, that is not entirely accurate. I do have a few options of litigation available to me in that regard as the terms "Intellectual Property", Intelectual Capacity and "propriatary technoligies" have been made a significant part of their case.
There are others that have been infinged on as well and one company that may not even know it, yet.



That's about the size of it.


sue them if you can.. It's America is it not?? Dog eat dog.. Eat the big dog and proove the little dogs have a place in the industry :P

wow.. I just made a metaphore lol.

[Pickle]

Right and wrong, is the only part of it as far as I'm concerned.
What is going on now is just plain WRONG and I feel obliged to try to help it be a little more RIGHT for almost everyone involved.
I've just never been one to stand by and let WRONG go unchallenged when I have the means to do something about it.

Finally someone with the ethics and means. From a long time player (15 years), thank you. :)

[WARPED1]

14 year player here..............been hoping Glenn fought for whats rightfully his.

[Paladin]

What is mine is not the issue here. It is more a matter of what is NOT theirs, to be suing anyone over.
:mad:

19 years, 11 months and about 18 days since my first "Survival Game."

[WARPED1]

What is mine is not the issue here. It is more a matter of what is NOT theirs, to be suing anyone over.
:mad:

19 years, 11 months and about 18 days since my first "Survival Game."
Very true.

[JimInVA]

Seek that which provides "good for all" and you will be well rewarded. For then you will be considered a "man of reason and good principle" and will be respected amongst your peers. What price can one place upon "respect"...

[Jet-Xino]

About darn time. Glad to finaly see one of the "little" guys standing up for themselves. Wish him the best of luck.

[hitech]

19 years, 11 months and about 18 days since my first "Survival Game."
Dang, has me beat by something like 2 years... ;)

[Battlewear]

Dang, has me beat by something like 2 years... ;)

Hitech has me beat by about 3 years..

Glenn - Just a quick word, GIVE IT TO THEM! My first Semi was a Typhoon, I loved that marker :clap: and one day will own another.. Alas theives!! :(

Keep Rockin Glenn!!!

[Oh_Davey]

At IAO last year I got to shoot a Blazer for the first time and I said, "Wow, this works like an Autococker." Glenn replied, "No, an autococker works like this." I liked that. :)

[Lohman446]

I'm waiting for TK to ban Mr. Palmer from the forums for taking all the love from his children

:rofl:

[50 cal]

Wow, lots of old time players here. Played my first game in Oct.'87.

Take it to 'em Glenn.

[RusskiX]

Wow, lots of old time players here. Played my first game in Oct.'87.

Take it to 'em Glenn.

Yeah, AO is home to a large contingent of "grumpers", including myself (circa 1989). I remember meeting Glenn along with Green Machine in Russia back in '94.

But back on topic, Give 'em hell Paladin! (But make sure your attorney's retainer is paid).

[Paladin]

I'm waiting for TK to ban Mr. Palmer from the forums for taking all the love from his children

:rofl:

I'm quite sure that Tom wouldn't hesitate to let me know if I got out of line here. I just don't want this to get assumed on too much, and morphed way out of proportion.

[hitech]

I remember meeting Glenn along with Green Machine in Russia back in '94.


Yeah, I remember getting Glenn in trouble with his wife over an innocent "encounter" with a young lady at the players party for one of the Bay City Opens. Sorry Glenn, I didn't realize that she just went to the restroom. :wow: ;)

[Paladin]

HiTech,

Yea, that was actually pretty funny though, from my point of view. Served her proper for jumping to conclusions. :rofl:

[hitech]

Yea, that was even funny though.

I'm glad you maintained your sense of humor. ;)

[vonort]

totally unnecissary(sp) to reconsider your stance on autocockers. dont consider this as being another smart parts issue. glenn is just standing up for what is technically his. he isnt snide and kaniving(sp)its not like every autococker now is infected with K2 evilness :p

go get em Glenn :headbang:

Dyeguy didn't mean it that way. At the time that I bought my cocker it was between the cocker and the Blazer. If I had the info that I have now, I would have bought the blazer. I prefer to support the smaller guy. Only reason I went with a cocker is nobody around me knows much about Blazers. I have a local cocker guru so I know I can get the gun fixed and tuned up easily.

I'm glad I do have one of Glenn's peices of work in my Hurricaine. Next will be either a nasty phoon, PUG with spring load, or a Blazer.

Been playing since April of 1986. :shooting: :dance:

[peewee]

:eek: Thank you Mr Palmer. Helped me make my next gun buy. I bought parts from you back in the early 90's for my PGP. Made it flawless after some barrel work. :cool: :cool:

[WARPED1]

I'd buy a Blazer in a heartbeat if they had commonly used barrel threads. I'd say cocker, but that just feels wrong! :wow:

[ilikePB]

If they came out with a nice electro frame for the Blazer it might just replace my Viking. However, I doubt Palmers would come out with an electronic frame, just doesn't seem their style, but I can always hope.

[tyrion2323]

Yeah, AO is home to a large contingent of "grumpers", including myself (circa 1989). I remember meeting Glenn along with Green Machine in Russia back in '94.

But back on topic, Give 'em hell Paladin! (But make sure your attorney's retainer is paid).

I'll have you know that I invented that term! (Grumpers!)

darned grumpers..... ;)

[Muzikman]

I'd buy a Blazer in a heartbeat if they had commonly used barrel threads. I'd say cocker, but that just feels wrong! :wow:

Whats wrong with the slip fit? It works well, and just about any barrel can be cut down to fit.

[edweird]

Glenn its good to see ya posting on AO, ya got lots of supporters here. After all its refreshing to see someone stick it to one of the groups that are screwing up the paintball industry.

:hail: and see ya at shatnerball

[WARPED1]

Whats wrong with the slip fit? It works well, and just about any barrel can be cut down to fit.
I don't want to wait 8 years for a custom shop to cut my barrels down. I also didn't like slip fit on my old Promaster, threads is the way to go. Plus there would already be a multitude of choices out.

[Paladin]

8 years ? You need to find a new shop to work with.

The barrel attachment on a Blazer is far different than was you had on the old Bush/Pro Master.
I too prefered a bit more solid and precice attachment of the barrel. That's why the Blazer is set up the way it is.
Besides that, you'll find that the barrel that comes with the Blazer is usually at least as good any any aftermarket unit that you might choose from the masses that are available.

[toymyster]

YES!!!
This is a letter long overdue!! Now let's look at what WE, as paintball players and customers can do to back Glenn up!!

[WARPED1]

YES!!!
This is a letter long overdue!! Now let's look at what WE, as paintball players and customers can do to back Glenn up!!
Nothing. We can't help unless we have money and lawyers.

[TeamNausea]

Go glenn
Player of 1 year 3 months even us newbs in your mind agree here ;)

[Kevmaster]

Glenn,

I mean what I am about to say with all due respect. I love your work and you are a fantastic man. While I don't support what K2/Worr/BE is doing, I do understand it.

Here is my problem with your statement: Where is the relevance?

(Perhaps I don't have a good enough understanding of the acse at hand) K2 has asked Action Markers to stop making their pump, not because it is in violation of a patent (because there is no patent on the auto-cocking marker) held by WORR or anyone else but because it violates trademarks and looks too much like the Sniper marker.

That seems like a valid reason to ask someone to stop making a marker. If AGD started making a mag that looked IDENTICAL to your Blazer, I would hope and expect you to ask AGD to stop making the marker, because it is too much like yours. While the internals may be 100% different, the outside is the same. I would hope you would ask AGD to stop. If they didn't, I would expect you to file a lawsuit against them. Not that you want to hurt AGD, but your comapny has rights too.

please let me know where I've gone wrong. Did you invent the autococking system that made Budd Orr rich? yes. Can you sue anyone for making a marker that uses it? No.

Thanks Glenn. I'd love to hear back from you...


Kevin Cullen

[DK1]

I don't want to wait 8 years for a custom shop to cut my barrels down. I also didn't like slip fit on my old Promaster, threads is the way to go. Plus there would already be a multitude of choices out.

I took my barrels to a machine shop. Got them back in 2 days. Plus, it allows you to buy really dirt cheap close out barrels (like for ICD threads). I remember you could get boomsticks and such dirt cheap like that.

DK1

[ilikePB]

Glenn,

I mean what I am about to say with all due respect. I love your work and you are a fantastic man. While I don't support what K2/Worr/BE is doing, I do understand it.

Here is my problem with your statement: Where is the relevance?

(Perhaps I don't have a good enough understanding of the acse at hand) K2 has asked Action Markers to stop making their pump, not because it is in violation of a patent (because there is no patent on the auto-cocking marker) held by WORR or anyone else but because it violates trademarks and looks too much like the Sniper marker.

That seems like a valid reason to ask someone to stop making a marker. If AGD started making a mag that looked IDENTICAL to your Blazer, I would hope and expect you to ask AGD to stop making the marker, because it is too much like yours. While the internals may be 100% different, the outside is the same. I would hope you would ask AGD to stop. If they didn't, I would expect you to file a lawsuit against them. Not that you want to hurt AGD, but your comapny has rights too.

please let me know where I've gone wrong. Did you invent the autococking system that made Budd Orr rich? yes. Can you sue anyone for making a marker that uses it? No.

Thanks Glenn. I'd love to hear back from you...


Kevin Cullen
You answered your own question it seems to me. If Glenn can't sue Budd for the cocker design thing, why can, according to you, K2 sue, or threaten with, AM for making a similar looking marker?

[Muzikman]

Kev, you bring up a good point and something I had asked Craig about at IAO when he had told me that Glenn wrote a letter. I never really got an answer.

That being said, K2 has sent letters to a lot of people, not just AM-P. Some of those things were based on the cocking system. So, though that letter does not change why K2 is going after AM-P, it goes help the other companies that K2 will or are going after for the "auto-cocking" system.

[Paladin]

First off, a patent is not a prerequisite for litigation in such matters.

Secondly, I'm not about to let all the cats out of the bag until it can be made a matter of fact in the public record. I'll tell the whole story, if/when it becomes absolutely necessary and when both sides of the issue can be challenged in depth for factual content; Thus making possible, a fair and reasonable judgement by the finder of fact.

With that, I'll just say that from my point of view, Mr. Orr has no legitimate right to be suing anyone over anything regarding Paintball equipment designs, inventions or developments, and my intelectual properties are just one part of the big picture.

Please keep in mind that all I really did was request that K2 reevaluate their position as it is likely that they didn't get everything they bargained for in their aquisition WGP's assets.
If they wish to pursue their current course of actions and actually try to prosecute this nonsense, my participation will help keep things in the proper perspective and belie most of their claims. The ball has been in their court for some time now and they have yet to respond.

[WARPED1]

I really hope you "win" Glenn. You have my moral support and all due respect as a leader in the industry.

[penguinpunk555]

Hell yea Glenn P.

[Kevmaster]

Glenn,

I certainly wish you the best. I don't like these frivilous law suits in any setting (paintball or other), but the intellectual property that Bud is fighting over, as I read it, is not the autococker design. It is the look and design of the Sniper marker, something he did invent. Yes, he modded his Sniper to be a cocker after your design. but AMP's design is similar to that of a Sniper, not a cocker.

As I mentioned above, if AGD made their mag in a body that was identical to yours, I would expect you to talk to AGD and ask that they reconsider their actions. They would be violating your trademarks on your blazer, lets say. The internal design could be 100% different, but I think it would still be illegal for AGD to make such a product.


Thanks for the discussion

(And for the record, I would support your standing up for AMP and helping end the nonsense all around the country in bull**** lawsuits. Its a waste of time and energy for everyone)

[Kevmaster]

First off, a patent is not a prerequisite for litigation in such matters.
With that, I'll just say that from my point of view, Mr. Orr has no legitimate right to be suing anyone over anything regarding Paintball equipment designs, inventions or developments, and my intelectual properties are just one part of the big picture.

and just to be sure I understand you correctly, does WORR have the right to stop System X, et all, from calling their markers Autocockers?

[Paladin]

I'm not really in this to "win" anything beyond the satisfaction of doing the right thing.

Call a spade a spade and keep ALL the cards on the table. This game is not going to be played with a stacked deck if I can help it.

[Brophog]

I'm so glad we didn't let this get out of hand! :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow:

[Paladin]

and just to be sure I understand you correctly, does WORR have the right to stop System X, et all, from calling their markers Autocockers?

That would have to be determined by a finder of fact (judge/jury) under the rights of the holder of a Trademark. As to the letter of the law, he certainly has some rights in that regard. However, again from my point of view, I can see no ethical legitimacy to his cries of woe when he is trying to protect a false image developed through misleading advertising.
So many wrongs just can't make it right; no matter how you slice it.

[SpecialBlend2786]

I don't think he has any plans to push it. Glenn isn't after money or fame, if he was, he'd have pushed the subject a long time ago. He just wants K2 to realize that they, in trying to force other people out for intellectual property that they do not have, are wrong, and as such, K2 needs to realize this and cease.

That's all that letter is trying to do.

Exactly what i think

[The Pinata]

Stick it to 'em Glenn. They shouldn't be ordering Cease and Desists to companies about a technology that they only like to let people believe they invented. Companies like K2 came into paintball just because they realised that there was money here, and they are here to eat up all the smaller companies right now. AGD has been smart in moving out of any areas where it is at risk of lawsuits, but a lot of companies such as BE, WGP, and Tippmann have become absorbed by larger companies.

[Paladin]

Glenn,

It is the look and design of the Sniper marker, something he did invent.

Just how sure are you of that ? The last time he claimed infringement of "Trade Dress" the case was dismissed, with predjudice, so that argument doesn't hold alot of water.
Yes, he modded his Sniper to be a cocker after your design. but AMP's design is similar to that of a Sniper, not a cocker.

So then what you are saying is that it is OK for Bud to copy whatever he wants, and call it his own, and then call foul when someone else does their thing that vaguely resembles something that wasn't an original idea in the first place? I think not.
What is good for the goose has to be just as good for the gander. Com on now, be reasonable. Call a spade a spade and let there be some "honor amoung thieves" :argh:

As I mentioned above, if AGD made their mag in a body that was identical to yours, I would expect you to talk to AGD and ask that they reconsider their actions. They would be violating your trademarks on your blazer, lets say. The internal design could be 100% different, but I think it would still be illegal for AGD to make such a product.

Well, since my equipment isn't about how it looks, I would be duely honored if one of Toms projects came out with a resemblance to something I build. Geez, I've had so much of my work copied in one way or another for so many years that I've gotten quite used to it. In fact I'm usually flattered by it. It's even more to my liking when some folks focus their product on trying best me with false claims. Consider the not so "self adjusting" Sledgehammer regulator that "was designed to crush a Rock": Sadly, it could do neither and it was just another copied product added to the list. (copied from outside of Paintball, actually a fuel system regulator)

Thanks for the discussion

(And for the record, I would support your standing up for AMP and helping end the nonsense all around the country in bull**** lawsuits. Its a waste of time and energy for everyone)
The threatening letter that was received by AMP just happened to be the one that I got a chance to read. I was thoroughly disgusted by it and it made no difference whatsoever who was threatened. I'm actually just "standing up for" what I think is right. In my estimation, WGP/K2 is far more wrong than most of those that they threaten. Therefore I chose sides against them and not with anyone inparticular.

[RingOfScale]

wait ... that Orr really steal a marker out of glenn palmers bag like that guy upper in the thread say so ? or were u kidding ?

[Ghost2867]

and just to be sure I understand you correctly, does WORR have the right to stop System X, et all, from calling their markers Autocockers?
actually, systemX no longer calls any of their markers autocockers any more...

in fact, the only time the word "autococker" is used on their website at all is when they were referring to autococker barrel threads, a cocker cocking rod, and the xonik frame, which fits on cockers.

and on topic...i hope this doesnt get ugly, and go to court...:|

[slasherdan]

Nothing. We can't help unless we have money and lawyers.

Just supported Glen with about a 2k purchase. Been saving the money for a long time and now the the child is here I have to get rid of it fast before the wife takes away my Palmer fund ....

So you can chalk me up for my Pump, Hurricane, and Squall ..... And I have two more pumps to send in still.....

[Paladin]

On behalf of the whole crew at PPS. Thank you for your support.

[slasherdan]

On behalf of the whole crew at PPS. Thank you for your support.

Gonna be giving ya some more soon. And when my team sees everything you've done for me I'm positive they'll send in their 68's as well ....

Do I get a finders fee?!?!?!?

Hey ... sometimes I support better than a sports bra!!!! ;)

[Ghost2867]

Worr4Life707: "And the AUTOCOCKER is not rightfully glenn palmers you idiot, when will you all learn. the design of the autococker is completely different then ANY of glenns markers.

And how is Glenn Palmer going to sue K2? K2 makes MULTI Billlions of dollars, glenn palmer makes jack diddly squat.

And he cant sue, because HE doesnt have any patents, nor anything that looks remotely like Bud Orr's autococker. "

and this post made in another thread that i didnt see by BigMan: "palmer didnt create the AutoCocker the idea of using pnuematics was and alot of his stuff does resemble the AutoCocker. Most of you guys who haven't owned a pre '00 Cocker don't know that the Cocker originally used Palmer stuff, but no matter what Palmer makes there is 1 down side, he's an engineer all his stuff looks like ****, he doesn't have a designers eye..."

it doesnt look like many ppl are that worried...

[WARPED1]

Too bad that guys wrong. Sure, Glenns didn't look like todays cocker, but every component of the pneus was stolen from Glenns prototype, that was allegedly stolen from Glenns luggage by Jeff Orr. Shortly after, wOrr released the first cocker.

[Ghost2867]

its not that hes right or wrong, but its more than ppl in the wgp community arent worried...in any case, i support what glenn palmer is trying to do.

[Kevmaster]

GP:

I'm not sure Orr did invent the sniper. That was my understanding, but as you may know, I'm a bit young to go back to the days when the Sniper (or heck, for that matter, I'm almost too young to remember the first angel) came out.

Anyways, I certainly agree that ethically you are right. Orr/K2 has no reason to go after AMP for their so called infringement on the trademarks. I agree 100% with you there. I think I now see much clearer what you are saying and what you believe. And I agree. I do think, though, that your letter does not convey that as clearly as you have articulated yourself here. Again, its always great to talk to you and I hope that things do end up going your way as the lawsuit follows.

~Kev


oh, PS: Ghost: The reason Sys X (and the others) doesnt call their marker a cocker is because Orr told them they couldn't call their markers cockers. They were called Autocockers when they first started making cocker-copies. I was just asking that question to see more clearly where Glenn was coming from.

[WARPED1]

Kev, the action against AM is one thing, but did you hear K2/WGP is going after every manufacturer of cocker clones to stop making them or face litigation?

[Paladin]

No, my guns don't look like AutoCockers but The automation system setup is nearly identical and in some cases the internals of the components used on early 'cockers are micrometer duplicates of parts used on the paintgun pictured in the attachment.
101 was seen in public for over a year before the first functional WGP attempt and has resides in Australia since the spring of '91.
Please note the sliding trigger and placement of the 4-way. That gun's older brother was a double with all the automation components mounted out front.
Oh, and I'm not an engineer but I am a 3rd generation gun smith. Was a military weapons technician, with a Master rating before I was 18, then added a 15 year background in automation systems for comercial/industrial doors before I started doing paintball full time.
Didn't have a whole lot of experience with machining or reverse engineering though.

[WARPED1]

Didn't have a whole lot of experience with machining or reverse engineering though.
ROFLMAO! I wonder who you possibly are talkin about!? ;)

[slasherdan]

Worr4Life707: "And the AUTOCOCKER is not rightfully glenn palmers you idiot, when will you all learn. the design of the autococker is completely different then ANY of glenns markers.

And how is Glenn Palmer going to sue K2? K2 makes MULTI Billlions of dollars, glenn palmer makes jack diddly squat.

And he cant sue, because HE doesnt have any patents, nor anything that looks remotely like Bud Orr's autococker. "

and this post made in another thread that i didnt see by BigMan: "palmer didnt create the AutoCocker the idea of using pnuematics was and alot of his stuff does resemble the AutoCocker. Most of you guys who haven't owned a pre '00 Cocker don't know that the Cocker originally used Palmer stuff, but no matter what Palmer makes there is 1 down side, he's an engineer all his stuff looks like ****, he doesn't have a designers eye..."

it doesnt look like many ppl are that worried...

Looks like Woor4Life and Bigman are clearly Cocker fans. Nothing wrong with that. But they continue to ignore the fact that this isn't who "owns" the autococker. It's an issue of the internals.

As for the grounds of patents .... there is a way around them ... It's called Intellectual Rights. If Worr purchased the rights off Glenn or made him sign a "non-compete" form then there is really nothing Glenn could do. But that isn't the case.

Either way, I don't think Glen would step out and send this letter if he didn't have his "ducks in a row". He's not going after them or sueing them. He's just letting them know that their house of cards isn't as stacked as they like to think.