Firearm question

[fire1811]

ok so if you read my other thread "cleaning rust from a firearm" you know i got my grandpas old guns. well my mom we taking about it with my uncle(other side of family) and he told her to have me call him.

so i call him and he says he has a gun for me.

so this is the gun he GIVES me. looks sweet as hell
anyway pictures below.

was wondering any info, specs, good/bad, caliber of the gun, and value if any, and is it safe to shoot? i would think so its in very good condition it think

also is there anyway to search with the serial number to find out how old this gun is? serial number is 11807 which i would assume is pretty low?

and just looked a little harder at the breech and it says 30. is that the caliber?

also there is what looks to be 91A right below that.

and i took pictures of two symbles i found on it one is a circle with a star, other is a circle with a wing? coming out of it. any info on these would be appriciated.

there is also a symble on the end of the barrel circle wing. a "W" and 7-17. maybe barrel model?????

thanks
curt

*edit just noticed the pic with model is dark it says "US model of 1917 Winchester 11807"

[fire1811]

more pics

[taylor492]

Im no expert but it looks like an M1 Garand. Bolt Action Model. :confused:

[fire1811]

nah i dont think it is im pretty sure the model is 1917

m1's arnt bolt action as far as i know. but i could be wrong

thanks for reply

[desslock]

nice looking rifle. goto winchesters homepage look around their site, sometimes firearm manufactures have e mail links. Send them an email with the serial# perhaps a gunsmith from winchester can look thru their data bases and give you some more info. If that doesnt work try a gunstore in ur area. Be carefull some places will try to lowball you and tell you the gun isnt worth more than $100 then try to buy it off you, when the gun you have there could be a collectors piece. If all else fails goto to your local library and look thru books(shudder! books so old fashion) LOL good luck man. Hope you get some straight answers

[fire1811]

thanks

i really have no interest in selling it just would like to know how much money im hauling around.

i found this page

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl19-e.htm

reading it now

google is a beutiful thing

[fire1811]

wow :eek: this might be a sweet gun. from what i am reading the 30 on the breech must be the caliber. so from the artical i just read .30cal is .30-06 correct

man i cant wait to shoot this beast

[Jeffy-CanCon]

I'm not 100% sure, but I think it is an Enfield P-17, in 30-06. Manufactured by Winchester, obviously. The P-17 was the main US service rifle during WW1, as Springfield was not up to the task of producing sufficient quantities of M1903's.

The 'circle with a wing' is a stylized grenade, with the "wing" representing a flaming fuse. The grenade is the symbol of the US Army Ordnance Corps. I may be wrong, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that the star-in-a-circle was the mark placed on superior quality barrels.

The serial number is EXTREMELY low. Over a million of these rifles were made.

(EDIT - Just read Fire1811's link! Apparently there were two million of these produced)

[Yudanja]

wow looks like very nice!

I just bought a Yugoslauvian (sp) m48 mauser. Condition is about the same as yours it seems. Mine is shooting a 8 X 57mm round. I will take some pics and send them up

[fire1811]

cool thanks guys

found a collectable firearms site and subscribed to it, posted there also.

i might have to use this for paintballing this weekend instead of my angel :D

[Yudanja]

Fire,

which gunsite was it? I found a great message board and i cant seem to locate it again.

Think my next rifle purchase will either be a m14 or a springfield m1903

[fire1811]

http://www.surplusrifle.com/index.asp

under forums

they even have things for disasembly/cleaning

cool site

[Konigballer]

man, you got yourself a nice Springfield 1903 rifle there.

Yours has a production date of 1917 but weapons usually carry the date of their original introduction, like 1903, in their acutal tital. Like how the Colt 1911 45., accpted for military service in 1911, is still refered to as a "the ol' 1911" even if you buy one made last year.

The Sprinfield '03 was our standard issue service rifle durring WW1 and in the begining of WW2 till the M1 Garand became standard issue. It was still used as a sniper rifle throughout WW2 and I believe in Korea too. Its designated as a "Springfield" even if it was manufactured by another company, because in both wars they often differ production of the same weapon to multiple companys to keep up production and meet demand.

If you've seen Saving Private Ryan, Jackson the sniper is using a scope mounted Sprinfield and if you like history, look up Alvin York and read about his actions in WW1. He used a Springfield and a Colt 1911 to great effect on one occasion against the germans and earned the Medal of Honor for it. Thats a great find you got ;)

[fire1811]

ok im confused now lol

if you look at the first link i found and read it

isnt the springfield 1903 and model 1917 different?

they show differnt pics in that link?

[fire1811]

yeah i think there two differnt guns

http://www.surplusrifle.com/m1917/index.asp

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Don't be confused. What you have is definitely a P17(or M1917), not a M1903. The forestock shape is different, for one easy check, and the M1903 has a straight mauser-type bolt versus the folded-over bolt on the P17.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

This site lists several P17s made by Winchester and Eddystone in 1917-18.

http://oldguns.net/cat_fa_old_us_long.htm]old (http://oldguns.net/cgi-bin/f2f/f2f.pl?[url) guns[/URL]

Depending on some factors
- origin and condition of the furniture (look for a "w" stamped into each piece, indicating original Winchester woodwork & bands)
- any damage to the barrel - which is apparently the original 1917 piece - (chips at the muzzle is bad)
- does the serial # on the bolt match the receiver?
- condition of the bluing, and whether or not it is original or refurbished

Your rifle could be worth $1000 dollars or more. Your uncle was generous!


Now I'm curious, though... I have something similar at home, but I can't recall if I have the P14(.303) or the P17(.30-06). I know I have one of them, and my friend has the other. I only paid like cdn$100 for it, too. I 'll have to check, and check the condition based on what I've been reading for you.

[fire1811]

where would the W be located on the wood?

barrel and muzzle look great no chips that i can see
inside of barrel looks excellent

dont see a serial on the bolt where would it be at?

[Sinistarr]

You do have a very nice bit of history there. It is worth a great deal to a collector, or enthusiest. $1000 is in the neighborhood.

Contact Winchester directly, and speak with someone who knows the older guns. They can help you track down the details of manufacture, and who it was sold to. It looks like the army or cav. had it.

Nice gun! Congrats! :shooting: :wow:

[fire1811]

thanks

i went to there website and its not very navigation friendly.

pretty much using google.

the other site i posted eariler has gotten a few replys.
one reply was that it looked to be manufactured around July 1917

[shortfri]

What you have there is like everyone says an old enfield. I looked my books over and they don't go into military weapons so i can't tell you which one you have but it is a 1903 or 1917. I know that really helped. The stamping you see in the metal are proof marks. These will just tell you the factory it was made in, the final inspector and so forth. all these guns were capable of shooting rifle grenades. sadly yours doesn't have the attachments needed to do so. If there are gun shows near you take it to one of those. Bayonets are real easy to find for those and are usually cheap.Someone at the gun show can tell you what it is.I got one more book to look at but they aren't in order so it make take a couple of days.

[fire1811]

Jeffy-CanCon

asked around and there are no serial numbers on military bolts(back then anyway)

estimates from gun value books for a winchester is as he posted

"The "Blue Book" of gun values (25th Eddition)list rifles with the original "high polish blue" in the 70% range as being worth $525 while 80% is worth $750. The book then goes on to say that rifles with the matt blue or that have a parkerized finish (these two types are the most common) are worth $315 (70%)and $350 (80%). For Winchester specimens, add 10%. "

[shortfri]

Finally found what you need. It's a winchester copy of the 1917 springfield enfield. It says that two million were made by springfield, winchester and other companys up until the end of ww1. After that they made them for the british for ww2. You can get parts from this website www.gunpartscorp.com Value for mint condition 275.00

[fire1811]

here is some info i found on it

total history actually

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl19-e.htm



and i have been given values well over $275???????????????

[shortfri]

nothing personal. Just telling you what my books say. I personally have no idea what it's worth.

[fire1811]

oh no bro didnt mean to come off like that i was just saying most are saying around
$500-800

but price dont really matter since its not for sale :)

[shortfri]

you'll love shooting it. I haven't been to a gun show in a couple of years, but ammo is real cheap for it. And if i'm not mistaken it has a little more punch then a normal 30-06. but the site i posted has all kinds of parts for it if you ever need them.

[fire1811]

yeah i really want to get a the proper sling and bayanet(sp) for it i think that would make it look really good in the gun case.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Turns out I have one, too! Mine's an Eddystone product, from 1918.

For furthe proof of original parts, look for a "W" on the side of the bands on the forestock, and on the sling swivels (2 of 3, for mine). On the bolt, look underneath on the handle, opposite the grenade mark. For the wood furniture, look around the top end of each piece, towards the muzzle. Right below the barrel is one spot, where I found an "E" on mine.

A bayonet and sling would be nice. I have them for most of my other military rifles. It really completes the piece, IMO

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Jeffy-CanCon

asked around and there are no serial numbers on military bolts(back then anyway)

...

OK. There is a serial number on the bolt-handle of my Lee Enfields, though. Depends on the manufacturers, I guess.

[Army]

It is an Enfiled 1917. The British could not make enough in their Enfield and Birmingham factories to stem the need for arms during WWI. Remember, they had been fully engaged with the Hun for two years already. Eddystone and Winchester both recieved contracts to build the Enfield to bolster the British Army. It was ORIGINALLY chambered in .303.

When the US became involved, Springfield, Rock Island, and Remington could not make enough '03-A3's to meet demand, so the Enfield was rechambered in .30-'06 and sent to war with the Marines. More Enfields saw fighting in the trenches than the Springfield guns, and up until early 1918 there were flat out thousands more too.

The Military standardized with the '03-A3, and all Enfields went to storage armories or were sold as surplus. The SPringfield soldiered on until the late 1930's when the Garand was officially adopted. However, many hundreds of thousands of '03-A3's went to battle in WWII since the Garand was labor intensive to build, and wouldn't be produced in needed quantities until later in the war. Most Marine units went to war with their preferred Springfields, and only reluctantly gave them up when ordered to use the Garand.

Good rifle you have. Get it fully checked by a qualified gunsmith before you shoot it, as it may have a serious fault you are not aware of.

[fire1811]

thanks army