what is the history behind everyone's hate of Smart Parts???

[ted.c0bb1es]

Could someone take some time to explain to me the reason(s) for everyone's hate of Smart Parts? I hear all the time that it is an evil empire bent on taking over the world - but I am not clear as to wht this is. Please let me know. Sorry for bringing up bad memories...

~Dan

[eNder159]

you pretty much summed it up

[Irelandunfree]

Yea I dont get it either, I saw a thread of people with pictures of SP Barrels being smashed and set on fire? Why the hell would someone hate a company that much? :rolleyes:

[quik]

SP patented something they had no right to patent(but they are smart unlike all the other PB companies), so everyone threw a fuss about it.

[Head knight of Ni]

They are very sue happy and are terrorizing this industry. It needs to be stopped know K2 is already doing similar "screw jobs."

[ted.c0bb1es]

be specifc, what did they patent that pissed everyone off?

[RoboBeaver]

using electronics to fire a marker, and they are trying to take out all the small companies, such as ICD, who they attacked.

smart parts wis why there arent any more e/x mags being made.

[spacedtedybear]

Click here to find out.
clicky (http://www.northarc.com/~tinker/smartparts.html)

[WenULiVeUdiE]

You all are half correct. They originally patented the shocker's design. Then they made the patent broader to cover ALL electronic markers. They then go and sue many other small companies. This happens in many other industries, and we just haven't seen anything like this in paintball before. It happens all the time. Their actions were not ethical, but they were legal.

Also, SP started the demise of the E/X-mag and the Viking and Excalibur by AKA.

[tony3]

You guys are WRONG about the e/xmag. Tom said it himself. They stopped making the xmag because AGDE is now the NPS europe distributor and doesn't have time to make xmags. And they just stopped doing emags while they were at it because it was a old design that needed to be re-done. SP was NOT the reason for the e/x mags to be discontinued.

[eNder159]

You guys are WRONG about the e/xmag. Tom said it himself. They stopped making the xmag because AGDE is now the NPS europe distributor and doesn't have time to make xmags. And they just stopped doing emags while they were at it because it was a old design that needed to be re-done. SP was NOT the reason for the e/x mags to be discontinued.


um what? ihope your smoking something potent

[tony3]

Ummm I hope you actually read what toms says in one of his thread?

[t33kyboy]

Yea I dont get it either, I saw a thread of people with pictures of SP Barrels being smashed and set on fire? Why the hell would someone hate a company that much? :rolleyes:

What thread is that??

[tony3]

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=126903&page=2&pp=30

"I didn't answer because I am busy doing stuff tonight but I see that its going to cause a big ruckus if I dont.

Here is the short explanation. AGDE has taken a job to run the National Paintball Europe distribution center. They will still distribute our products but making bodies is not high on the list. They are machining the last of the extrusions so there will only be one more batch of about 50 xmags. Some people on the list will not get them, sorry I dont know what to say.

The Emag is going on 4 years old and is due for a complete revamp. We will be selling off the last of them (about 250) and discontinuing that product.

Now the bad news, with the current legal situations going on in paintball it is not strategicaly smart for us to invest in a new e-marker at this time. We are going to wait until the dust settles and see who comes out on top before we proceed with a new design.

We will work slowly on a new concept that will eliminate the large battery and charger, incorporate the ULT trigger system and completely new electronics. We don't expect to introduce this marker until 2005 if it makes sense to do so.

The point of all this is that we are making these decisions based on industry influences. Our customers have nothing to do with the products we do or don't develop these days. Think about it.

AGD"

Yeah, looks like I'm smoking something :rolleyes:

[SpecialBlend2786]

I just dont like them cause they shut down the production of Vikings and Excals. And their magazine ads seem to be selling girls instead of paintball stuff...

I liked my Imp untill it died :( It was a very good deal when it came out, and the new 03 Shocker base model is still very competitivly priced.

[CrimsonGhost]

My issue is with the service they call customer support,care,etc.
The sue happy thing...not a big deal to me...it was bound to happen eventualy. If not SP ..then someone else.
Some folks get fired up about it ...I didn't.
I dont like it but...thats the way it is now so...you'll have to make your own choices on what to do / not to do about it .(if anything ;)

[felony]

my hate for smart parts is that they do most of their legal work through geico, which saves them as much as 15% off.

bastards

[O_o]

Oh heelll no, you better be kidding ^

I love that Geico gecko

example: :rofl:
http://acw.loudeye.com/geico/videos/robot/Gecko_robot2.asx

[Big_Mac]

SP patented the Shocker (fine), then they got a patent revision through (God knows how) that covered ALL electronically actuated paintball markers (Not just the Shocker design). The revision is of course backdated to the original patent for the shocker. Then SP decided to enforce the patent, suing ICD first because they are a small company without the resources to fight, then AKA, etc. They get what they deserve now that WDP (Angel) is suing them. Their actions are questionably legal and definitely unethical. I'd like to know how they got the broad, all encompassing revision through. Let's not forget the Gardner's have been convicted of unethical business practices before.

[rkjunior303]

Could someone take some time to explain to me the reason(s) for everyone's hate of Smart Parts? I hear all the time that it is an evil empire bent on taking over the world - but I am not clear as to wht this is. Please let me know. Sorry for bringing up bad memories...

~Dan

Think of them as the NY Yankees of the paintball industry.

[DarkRipper]

Why is it the new shocker looks so much like the older emag? Way to be ahead of the power curve as usual, Tom.... they say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

:)

[1ofkind]

hahahaha

I just dont like first shot drop off, I hate it and I hear to many rumors. Other than that its the other companies fault for being stupid enough to not beaware that some evil company might patent paintball, "smart" parts .

Other than that smartparts makes great guns, and some of the best products. They are so shinny and tight. I would feel I look like these guys off the break...

[WenULiVeUdiE]

You guys are WRONG about the e/xmag.

But you have to think, would he have stopped production so soon if SP wasnt doing all this? I know about AGDE and all that, but I'm sure Tom also did it so we wouldnt have to deal with law suits.

[Dryden]

ARRRRRGGG! Really ... I want to pull my hair out because these posts are so infuriating! The reason everyone hates Smarts Parts is because nobody recognizes the truth, or at least is willing to accept it. Everyone hates Smart Parts because of what they perceive is some injustice and power tripping monopoly that Smart Parts is trying to create, when in reality SP is doing nothing more than what they are guaranteed by the US Constitution - a legal tussel in which, to this point, every court who has heard SP's case has agreed with them, or least led the named defendants in the case to believe that the court would agree with SP.

The worst of it is that people perpetuate myths, motives, legends, and hearsay that go well beyond being false, to something bordering on ... well, I don't know what! Here is a prime example:


SP patented the Shocker (fine), then they got a patent revision through (God knows how) that covered ALL electronically actuated paintball markers (Not just the Shocker design). The revision is of course backdated to the original patent for the shocker. Then SP decided to enforce the patent, suing ICD first because they are a small company without the resources to fight, then AKA, etc. They get what they deserve now that WDP (Angel) is suing them. Their actions are questionably legal and definitely unethical. I'd like to know how they got the broad, all encompassing revision through. Let's not forget the Gardner's have been convicted of unethical business practices before.
I'm sorry, but really not one sentence of this is accurate. Not one. I'll take this point by point.

SP patented the Shocker, which they're legally entitled to do. As the design of the Shocker evolved, SP revised their patent by filing CIPs (continuations in part), which they're legally entitled to do. SP's Shocker patent covers various mechanisms in electronic assistance for firing a paintball gun, including electronical controls of valve timings and other mechanisms to eliminate the reliance on a 20 year old paintball favorite, the spring. [The patent does specifically detail the non-linear mechanical problems of springs - a mechanism which all Mags depend on to fire more than one shot]. Further, the Shocker patent also specifically details particulars about [low] operating pressures, which it just so happened many companies duplicated in their markers, like ICD and AKA. By my understanding of the Shocker patent, and the method by which SP has chosen to enforce it, it would appear that the E/X-Mags do not infringe on this patent. But then, that's not why AGD discontinued these markers anyway, which has already been mentioned.

After SP was granted the patent with all of it's successive CIPs, they chose to enforce it. First, they pursued ICD, because ICD had a low-cost (relatively speaking) marker that was too similar in function to the Shocker and recognized as the most immediate threat to devalue the Smart Parts brand. After this, SP pursued AKA, who had produced (arguably) the most popular unlicensed variation of the design, which would also be a threat to devalue the Smart Parts design. Whether any or all of these markers are functionally the same clones of one another apparently isn't an issue for anybody. When it comes time to name which company (or which holder of that company) decided to be the first to put an electronically controlled solenoid valve into a low pressure marker, everyone suddenly suffers from amnesia!

WDP has filed suit against Smart Parts, but whether it's so SP can "get what they deserve" is probably not the legal reasoning behind the suit.

Whether SP's actions are unethical is subject for debate, but according to Article 1, Section 8 of the US Constitution - at least the last time I read it - they are allowed to have and enforce patents. Now, there are certain portions of the SP Shocker patents (all filings) that are questionable, in particular the lengthy explaination for how what occurs to the paintball downrange is a function of a low pressure, electronically assisted pneumatic device and not the laws of physics, but I digress.

Last but not least, there's the matter of Smart Parts' questionable practices in prior business ventures. Neither of the Gardner's were ever convicted of anything. Adam Gardner (not Bill) was mentioned in passing in a lawsuit against an invention submission firm. Adam was not a party in the suit. His name only appeared because he was a previous client of the named defendant in that case, George Davison. George Davison doesn't sound the same as Adam or Bill Gardner, but apparently everyone suddenly suffers from amnesia on this point too.

Lastly, I'll close with this, since my post will no doubt infuriate the hippies who live in an alternate reality where everyone plays nice and businesses never sue each other. I'm not a shill for Smart Parts. I'm neither for or against them. I'm interested in the outcome of this case as a spectator and a person who enjoys playing paintball and seeing awesome new products. Those of you who are against Smart Parts should reevaluate the case(s). Oh, and it probably wouldn't hurt to actually read some of the documents you're citing! :rolleyes:

If you read all of these documents and reach different conclusions than I have, then I would love to debate that. I would love for someone to detail step by step what happens within a marker from SP, ICD, and AKA that allows the paintball to get from Point A to Point B. That would be helpful. Heck, that might even be useful.

Sadly though, I hate to have to point out that Adam Gardner is not the devil, Bill Gardner is not a nazi, the world will not end in twenty-four hours, and when you wake up tomorrow, Smart Parts will still be in business and making a profit.

[Chronobreak]

wow all those long winded threads and he couldve just done a search himself :( o well i dislike sp because of their craippily made products and the fact that they started going sue happy wasnt really a way to gain favor as well

[tony3]

Wow, I loved that post. Your closing sentence got me laughing. I think one of the biggest reasons this is such a big deal is because, AKA, and ICD both have very loyal owners groups, just like automags. And if they try to mess with there guns, the loyal owners, will get very upset.

[felony]

man... and i thought it was all cause of geico and their low low rates.

boy was I off.

dan

[FragTek]

My hate of Smart Parts begins with the low quality products of theirs that I've owned... Impulses? Cheap garbage. Post PVI Shockers? Cheap Garbage. New style Freak barrel kits? Cheap garbage.

The only thing I can remember liking of Smart Parts were the older pre-2k1ish barrels, they shot very well. And all in all the MaxFlow isn't a bad tank system. However they make dreadfully horrible guns and barrels these days :shooting:

And of course they only fueled my hatred by sueing everyone they could possible think of since they invented paintball :rolleyes: Stupid :tard:s.

[Mister Sinister]

I'm interested in the outcome of this case as a spectator and a person who enjoys playing paintball and seeing awesome new products.

And with smart parts sueing everyone over the patents how many companies are going to be willing to drop thousands of dollars into r+d for an electro marker that will only bring them a lawsuit? While yes the emag was discontiued cause the design was getting outdated TK has said that with the current situation they are not going to hotly persue a replacement. This is only good business sense on the part of AGD. Sorry Iam not a hippy that lives in an alternate reality (hippies smell). But what is going to be the outcome of this? My take on it is it will force the manufacturers to build products according to what wont bring them litigation and not what the people want. There was some amount of honor between the manufacturers at one time. If iam not mistaken it was Dennis Tippmann who invented the pin valve. He has also said that he deliberatly didnt patent it. By letting everyone use it this promoted growth into the industry. Ethics and goodwill are not dead. I understand that no they dont always get you ahead in business. Sometimes business isnt everything.

[ilikePB]

Didn't the Angel and Shocker come out at the same World Cup? I wonder which was actually the first to use the electro pneumatic system. Just thinking out loud.

Oh yeah, Smart Parts is gay, they didn't even invent the Shocker, PVI did, but I guess they bought the rights to it or something.

[FragTek]

PVI developed the Shocker FOR Smart Parts, and then Smart Parts said screw you PVI, bought the patent, and turned it to garbage.

I think the Shocker was before the Angel, no matter, the Shocker was the first true closed bolt electro :p hehe.

I got my hands on a nice PVI... It's dope, i love it to death: http://www.fragtek.com/pix/pvishocker.jpg

[vonort]

The US Navy did it first back in the '70s.

And I agree with FragTek. Most of my dislike of SP is from them making crap!! And since they can't build a decent product for a decent price they decide to sue the competition. So the competition has to raise thier price to pay off the "legal" black mail. It's BS.

[Irelandunfree]

What thread is that??

Found it, the thread wasnt on AO it was on....Pbnation :rolleyes:

http://hometown.aol.com/baboonplatoon/page1.html

[tony3]

My hate of Smart Parts begins with the low quality products of theirs that I've owned... Impulses? Cheap garbage. Post PVI Shockers? Cheap Garbage.

So you are telling me a pvi shocker is better then a 02 shocker? Can you give me some reasons the pvi is better?

[FragTek]

So you are telling me a pvi shocker is better then a 02 shocker? Can you give me some reasons the pvi is better?

When Smart Parts decided to manufacture the Shocker and all of the parts for it themselves everything internally changed.... We went from quality controlled well developed internals to "Smart Parts Internals" ie. garbage.

If you go and read the reviews on the early SP Shockers at say pbreview you will notice people stating that the quality of the internals went way way down. Which I don't doubt for a second, SP will cut as many corners as they possibly can to minimize production cost just to raise the retail price... maggots!

[Head knight of Ni]

Yes. And it has been widely known that SP uses the lowest grade aluminum they can get away with. Some people say its so bad it can't be threaded. :wow:

[NoLifeLeft]

Has anyone else heard that a really high percentage of all of the new Nerves don't work out of the box? I talked to one dealer that had received 4 and 2 didn't work.

[xXHavokXx]

Has anyone else heard that a really high percentage of all of the new Nerves don't work out of the box? I talked to one dealer that had received 4 and 2 didn't work.


which is why we didnt order any.

[FragTek]

Has anyone else heard that a really high percentage of all of the new Nerves don't work out of the box? I talked to one dealer that had received 4 and 2 didn't work.

When I still had my store "FragTek Paintball Supply" the 2 first batch '03 Shockers we got both didnt work, neither one of them would turn on due to faulty electronics... I believe they were #72 and #86, one blue and one black.

I was in such disbelief that 2 brand new guns didn't work out of the box that I had to tear them apart to see if I could fix the problem myself, we ended up getting one to work, I can't remember how, but it still didnt turn on every time. The other, still in pieces, I was so annoyed I took a picture of me flipping it off and posted it all over PBN with a thread pointing out my disgust for Smart Parts. To make a long story short, our SP rep. got forwarded one of those links, called me up, and told me our dealer account with Smart Parts had been closed. :rofl: dumb bastards!!! Make a product that works the first time, and for a long time, and you won't have your dealers turning on you!!!!!!

[matt-o]

everyone hates sp because they make low quality products, patent things they didnt invent(!), and send out faulty products, sometimes not to be under warranty later, plus they were responsible for many price increases in other manufacturers guns due to lawsuits, not to mention the loss of great guns like the viking, excalibur and our beloved e/xmags, though the e/xmags werent in demand much anymore, which i admit was also a factor. plus i bet their are lots of great gun designs that cant be made because of the fact that they would have to be electronic, the matrix got lucky in its release timing and now we have the dm4 to show, how many good designs like that have been squashed can only be guessed.

also fragtek, do you have a link to that vid you were talking about, i think we would all like to see it :p