so..i just had some macroline eat my face..

[Flow_Tech]

yea..i decided to use about 1200 PSI output,and the line snapped out of the fitting,and ate my left hand,and my lower face,i thought i was going to look like this guy> :argh: ..it hurts,anyone got any suggestions on how to make it hurt less?and dont laugh at me,cause if you do..then..ill laugh at you. :confused:

[ghideon]

ice?

[Flow_Tech]

ice?
i was thinking along the lines of pain killers..ice doesnt help

[MicroMiniMe]

Aloe plant around the house? Time to snap a few branches.

[Adrenaline_Junkie]

ice?

Thats the only thing i could think of other than hurting somethin else more so you forget about the pain in your face and hand but thatd just be dumb lol.

[Adrenaline_Junkie]

If you were lookin along the line of pain killers i think some tylonal or ib profan (whichever one helps with pain more than headaches).

[ghideon]

i was thinking along the lines of pain killers..ice doesnt help

Ah, I see then.

Kentucky Bourbon then.

[sabrefanpc]

if your 21+ :rolleyes: your best friends can help- Jack and Jim

otherwise just ice it. bactine may sting a bit when u first put it on but it eventually helps.

i dunno, but if youre like me otc pain killers may as well be m&ms...

[MasonFootball89]

Hey get some aloe from your local drug store or get some from an aloe plant. Its made for things like this.

Also next time you turn up your output dont put it to close to your face alright :rofl:

[Chronobreak]

:tard: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


told u macro sucks ;) ss pwns u

[Adrenaline_Junkie]

Also next time you turn up your output dont put it to close to your face alright :rofl:

Well said :rofl:

[Paintball_4_Fun]

yea..i decided to use about 1200 PSI output,and the line snapped out of the fitting,and ate my left hand,and my lower face,i thought i was going to look like this guy> :argh: ..it hurts,anyone got any suggestions on how to make it hurt less?and dont laugh at me,cause if you do..then..ill laugh at you. :confused:


Post some picks.

[personman]

Heh, macro is unreliable at 800 psi, what made you think that you could pull off 1200 psi? :tard:

[Flow_Tech]

i shall call my self..Macrowned.

[CaptaiN_JacK]

i shall call my self..Macrowned.

NOOOO!!! Must...stop...ownisms...from...infecting...AO...

:shooting: Macrowned

[-=Squid=-]

Good macroline is reliable beyond 800 psi personman.

[personman]

Good macroline is reliable beyond 800 psi personman.
Well, no macroline is to be trusted, in my oppinion ;)
No offense or anything of corse, I'm sure your macro is great.

[BobTheCow]

Post some picks.Heh, first thing I thought of too... we need us some pictuuuuuures!! :ninja:

[-=Squid=-]

Well, no macroline is to be trusted, in my oppinion ;)
No offense or anything of corse, I'm sure your macro is great.

Haha, its cool. Some people just cant be convinced ;)

[slade]

Haha, its cool. Some people just cant be convinced ;)
yeah, like the "mags are slow ball choppers" people and the "cockers shoot farther" people. just buy macroline from squid or tuna next time ;)

[Halliday]

This thread is worthless without pics.

[Muzikman]

Haha, its cool. Some people just cant be convinced ;)


Nope, when it comes to my safety, I can not be convinced.

[1stdeadeye]

Nope, when it comes to my safety, I can not be convinced.

Amen to that! I am a strong guy. I can carry the extra weight of Braided stainless steel. :cool:

[Flow_Tech]

This thread is worthless without pics.
i have no camera,and by the time i could aquire one,the marks would be gone....there almost gone now,just look like thick cat scratch marks..

[-=Squid=-]

Nope, when it comes to my safety, I can not be convinced.Thats why you dont buy shoddy tubing. I have never seen a GOOD brand of macroline blow EVER, and when I see lesser quality tubing blow, it is no more than a small hole.

[Beemer]

Haha, its cool. Some people just cant be convinced ;)

Is micro rated WP 3000psi.

The stuff I use is rated 3000psiWP 12000psi burst pressure. Ya its not micro
Course this is paintball, everything under rated is better and safer.

[FallNAngel]

This is why I rock steel braided line... :cool:

[Muzikman]

Thats why you dont buy shoddy tubing. I have never seen a GOOD brand of macroline blow EVER, and when I see lesser quality tubing blow, it is no more than a small hole.


I saw Tuna's Macro blow, I have also seen fittings blow. This is not just macro fittings, but aluminum swivel fittings. I use nothing but Steel Braid and Brass (nickel coated) fittings.

(Except on my Hurricane, can not get braid to fit, and the piece is only about 4" long.

[GT]

good regs + low operating press = macro.

I used macro on all my mags, heck all my guns. the only problems I have ever had are with the fittings wearing out causing a leak. Come one people, 900+psi is just to unsafe no matter what line you use....


Edit: Squid, when you get milk instock I am all over it.

gt

[-=Squid=-]

Im gonna have every color under the sun in when I have to restock :cool:

Once I have to restock my inventory, I will make colors. Including cream. Not sure how long, mabe a couple weeks... its selling FAST all of a sudden.

Oh ya... Muzikman, this is why I dont use swivel fittings ;)

Its usually a fitting problem, not a tubing problem.

[MonsterMag]

or u could just use steel line :rolleyes: , i highly doubt that will come off :)

just tighten it down b4 u use it ;)

[FSU_Paintball]

Good god, those huge sigs with all the F/S crap in them are annoying...

[-=Squid=-]

Good god, those huge sigs with all the F/S crap in them are annoying...
What? :ninja:

[ghideon]

In terms of working pressure, what is good macro rated at?

And micro, too, if anyone knows.

[Beemer]

good regs + low operating press = macro.
Come one people, 900+psi is just to unsafe no matter what line you use....
gt

If you say that, then you could say 3000,4500 or even 5000psi air cylinders are unsafe no matter what reg you use.

Shouldnt everything down stream be rated at LEAST the same or higher then the starting pressure? But then again this is PaintBall not rocket science.

[rabidchihauhau]

Forget the 'I've never seen it blow', 'I'm testing it right now and don't see any problems' and 'its usually the fittings, not the hose'....

where's the working pressure rating? where's the burst pressure?

Oh, and I like the 'good reg + etc = macro line' - same reasoning as 'as long as I drive safely, there's no need for safety belts'.

Whether macro line should be used or not has NOTHING to do with cost, the fittings used or individual impressions of how good it is. The only criteria that should be used is whether or not its working pressure is the same or exceeds the maximum working pressure of the gas SOURCE (as in tank) your system is hooked up to. Can any macroline deal with 4500 psi x 4.5? If not (and I haven't seen any yet that can), then you should not be using it.

[speeddemon]

...Whether macro line should be used or not has NOTHING to do with cost, the fittings used or individual impressions of how good it is. The only criteria that should be used is whether or not its working pressure is the same or exceeds the maximum working pressure of the gas SOURCE (as in tank) your system is hooked up to. Can any macroline deal with 4500 psi x 4.5? If not (and I haven't seen any yet that can), then you should not be using it.
Well you can use that logic all you want, but personally I would much rather have my macro blow in the event of a reg failure, than have full pressure in my gun. Macro is cheap, guns aren't. Just use good macro and common sense. Like Squid said, I have never seen good macro blow, only the cheap stuff (and even then it was cuz of idiots leaving it in the sun and so on.

[Beemer]

Well you can use that logic all you want, but personally I would much rather have my macro blow in the event of a reg failure, than have full pressure in my gun. Macro is cheap, guns aren't. Just use good macro and common sense. Like Squid said, I have never seen good macro blow, only the cheap stuff (and even then it was cuz of idiots leaving it in the sun and so on.

Well your logic aint exactly rocket science. You could consider the macro like an inline fuse I suppose. But then it could eat your face like couponqueen found out. ASTM says your gun and valve is supposed to be rated at 3000psi anyway. IS IT? Mine IS. Of course the industry doesnt have to follow standards cause this aint rocket science. They dont CARE.

Show your set up to the NASA guys. I will bet huge they wouldnt trust or USE it.

What do you mean in the event of reg failure? Regs dont fail do they?

Put 3000psi on your GOOD macro and tell me what happens. I could leave my gun in the sun[under pressure] all day if I wanted. No paint in hopper of course.

Peace Out
Beemer

[wombo102]

um...how did macro line eat your face and hand

[GT]

If you say that, then you could say 3000,4500 or even 5000psi air cylinders are unsafe no matter what reg you use.

Shouldnt everything down stream be rated at LEAST the same or higher then the starting pressure? But then again this is PaintBall not rocket science.


Lets say your air fittings hol,
can you honestly say that any part out there can survive a 4500psi blast? I think this debate is pretty pointless, If you have an inline(tank) reg designed to blow off @ X amount of pressure, the strength of your air fittings is a moot point. From what I understand most of the tanks in the industry bleed off around 1000psi becuase they relize just how dangerous that is down stream, no matter what fittings you use.

If your equipment is serviced when needed a 4500 downstream blast is unlikly


Come one people, 900+psi is just to unsafe no matter what line you use....

Do what you like Beemer. For me this rule still stands true, no matter how bad I want RT runaway....

[MasonFootball89]

Post some picks.

well it sounds like it hurts so I want to laugh at some pictures

(please dont laugh at me :rofl: )

[Beemer]

Lets say your air fittings hol,
can you honestly say that any part out there can survive a 4500psi blast? I think this debate is pretty pointless, If you have an inline(tank) reg designed to blow off @ X amount of pressure, the strength of your air fittings is a moot point. From what I understand most of the tanks in the industry bleed off around 1000psi becuase they relize just how dangerous that is down stream, no matter what fittings you use.

If your equipment is serviced when needed a 4500 downstream blast is unlikly



Do what you like Beemer. For me this rule still stands true, no matter how bad I want RT runaway....

Ya my stuff will hold to at least 5000psi or more tested.


From what I understand most of the tanks in the industry bleed off around 1000psi
Have to prove that one to me. MOST, should be all.

FYI I only run 800 input

Consider this. The burst disk on a 4500 psi is 7500 [WHAT]

"If your equipment is serviced when needed a 4500 downstream blast is unlikly"

Key word is not unlikely but POSSIBLE

Peace Out
Beemer

[Flow_Tech]

um...how did macro line eat your face and hand

um...ever heard of an expression?

[darwin]

For painkillers i would recomend morphine :)

[PaintballSmurf13]

um... why is this in the paintball talk forum?? :nono: i say, sucks for you, deal with it... :tard:
-Ryan

[1ofkind]

Wow, I'm terrified of macroline now :rofl: I have six 1 ft hoses just laying around.

I've use micro line before and never hada problem, just shows you its luck.

[-=Squid=-]

um... why is this in the paintball talk forum?? :nono: i say, sucks for you, deal with it... :tard:
-Ryan
Why shouldn't it be?

[Echo419]

ONLY US SO-NC PEOPLE WOULD ACCOMPLISH THAT

SO-NC represent.

[Flow_Tech]

Werd.

[FragTek]

Didnt take the time to read through this post so dont flame me if someone else already suggested this :)

2 things you can do.... Go get super drunk, and you'll never notice the pain. Or, go roll up a spliff and toke it down, that makes pain go away too.

If it REALLY hurts, do both of the previous things at the same time.

[Flow_Tech]

it doesnt hurt anymore..but..Frag,your option 1 doesnt seem like a bad idea ;)

[rabidchihauhau]

Coup - glad you are not hurting any more; I had a steelbraided hose fitting fail years ago at a fill station (my fault - not paying attention to what I was doing) and the hose/fitting beat the back of my hand to death for a few seconds; the whole hand stayed numb and was only partially functional for about ten days...

On to the 'arguments'.

There are no arguments. The standard setting engineers (as in ASTM and CGA - Compressed Gas Association and the Fed's DOT) have, through long years of study, research and testing, as well as real world experience dealing with disastrous failures involving major injury and numerous deaths, have established the SCIENCE of determing proper safety practices in the engineering of all kinds of systems, including those used with compressed gasses (both high and low pressure).

In all instances, the following criteria are recommended (and in some cases mandated by law): a high pressure system must have approved safety relief valves/containment systems/visual markers, they must ONLY utilize materials and etc that have themselves been subjected to manufacturing and functionality standards and ALL components in a pressurized system MUST be built to withstand the maximum working pressure - which is determined by multiplying the intended working pressure by 4.5 and subjecting the component to that higher, or 'bursting (failure) pressure'. If the component does not distort beyond a certain percentage when subjected to burst pressure, it is deemed to be safe to use AT THE LOWER, WORKING PRESSURE.

So that means that a tank who's working pressure is 3000 psi has been tested to a burst pressure of 13,500 psi. Any components attached to that system - despite the presence of pressure relief/bleed/blowoff/burst devices - must ALSO be tested to 13,500 psi or they are not appropriate for use in that system.

The proper discussion is not about what anyone actually uses, or about whether an incorrectly used product actually works in the field, or even about whether the standard itself is a good one or not. The proper discussion ought to be: we have well-thought out standards that rely on hundreds, if not thousands of years of experiences by well trained scientists, engineers, technicians and researchers, those standards are DAILY verified and modified by real-world experience. Governments, attorneys and courts rely on those standards when making judgements. WHY isn't the paintball industry following them?

[speeddemon]

...all instances, the following criteria are recommended (and in some cases mandated by law): a high pressure system must have approved safety relief valves/containment systems/visual markers, they must ONLY utilize materials and etc that have themselves been subjected to manufacturing and functionality standards and ALL components in a pressurized system MUST be built to withstand the maximum working pressure - which is determined by multiplying the intended working pressure by 4.5 and subjecting the component to that higher, or 'bursting (failure) pressure'. If the component does not distort beyond a certain percentage when subjected to burst pressure, it is deemed to be safe to use AT THE LOWER, WORKING PRESSURE.

So that means that a tank who's working pressure is 3000 psi has been tested to a burst pressure of 13,500 psi. Any components attached to that system - despite the presence of pressure relief/bleed/blowoff/burst devices - must ALSO be tested to 13,500 psi or they are not appropriate for use in that system.

"...ALL components in a pressurized system MUST be built to withstand the maximum working pressure - which is determined by multiplying the intended working pressure by 4.5 and subjecting the component to that higher, or 'bursting (failure) pressure'."
The intended working pressure of all your air lines is 800 (assuming hp preset tank), therefore they should be tested to 3600, not 13,500. So the burst pressure of your lines should be around 3000 depending on your tanks output. Which means that macro line with a working pressure of say 1000 psi (the stuff I currently have) is safe according to you and ASTM standards.


The proper discussion is not about what anyone actually uses, or about whether an incorrectly used product actually works in the field, or even about whether the standard itself is a good one or not. The proper discussion ought to be: we have well-thought out standards that rely on hundreds, if not thousands of years of experiences by well trained scientists, engineers, technicians and researchers, those standards are DAILY verified and modified by real-world experience. Governments, attorneys and courts rely on those standards when making judgements. WHY isn't the paintball industry following them? Yes, people need to be made to stop selling macro and such with such low working pressure ratings because it can be unsafe. Other than that, whats wrong? You don't like it cuz kids with spyders on CO2 left their gun sitting in the sun and blew stuff apart. Fine, don't use it, but don't try and tell me what I can and can't do.

Oh yeah, and I didn't know we had compressed air hundreds or thousands of years ago :D

[SlartyBartFast]

Other than that, whats wrong? You don't like it cuz kids with spyders on CO2 left their gun sitting in the sun and blew stuff apart. Fine, don't use it, but don't try and tell me what I can and can't do.

But that Spyder might be next to my face when it decides to blow. The owner of the Spyder ready to pay damages?

Hell, the owner should do jail time for negligence causing bodily harm. Indeed the owner of the field and the person who filled the gun should also do jail time for the same as they should have been aware of the danger and risk.

If there's a chance that you'll be jumping into a bunker with me, firing your marker at me, or otherwise handling you unsafe equipment within a 1000 feet of me or others, Damn straight we have EVERY right to tell you what you can or cannot do.

[GT]

Hell, the owner should do jail time for negligence causing bodily harm. Indeed the owner of the field and the person who filled the gun should also do jail time for the same as they should have been aware of the danger and risk.

.

uhhhh.....

You are talking about two totaly different things, Criminal v civil libility.


If there's a chance that you'll be jumping into a bunker with me, firing your marker at me, or otherwise handling you unsafe equipment within a 1000 feet of me or others, Damn straight we have EVERY right to tell you what you can or cannot do.

this type of talk/action is way more dangerous than SP ever will be. Consider, even taking one "claim" to court, wether you win or lose, insurance rates skyrockets for everyone whom is invovled in the industry. Within a year's time we find ourselves dropped kicked to the early days of pump play and outlaw fields.

To be honest this will happen at some point, however, I think it will be a ROF issue rather than an equipment failure. Anyone here the aftermath of the lady that was killed my the co2 tank?

[Muzikman]

In general, be it Macro/Micro lines, ROF, people throwing thier gun (with tank attached), etc... The sport of paintball is a dangerous one and if something doesn't happen to regulate the safety beyond the masks we wear, somone is going to get seriously hurt, and someone is going to get sued. I am waiting for the day that someone dies because a tank exploded from a flash fill, or someone throws a gun, the reg snaps off the tank and we have a 3000psi rocket. Or the day some noob loses an eye or two because that kid with the ramping board just shot him 40 times.

At the NJAO meet I heard a rumor that a guy with a tippmann got overshot and his first reaction was to remove his mask to yell at the person. We never said people were smart that play this sport, so we have to make it fool proof before some government agency makes us.

[SlartyBartFast]

uhhhh.....

You are talking about two totaly different things, Criminal v civil libility.

There's civil and criminal responsibility in filling inappropriate equipment to unsafe pressures and putting it (knowingly or unknowingly) into the hands of someone else.

The family/victim could sue for civil damages and the court could press criminal charges.

In the mean time, paintball is living in a fantasy land. It's the equivalent of wetting your finger and sicking it in a light socket a couple hundred times and declairing it a safe activity.

Then, on try 101, someone plugs it in and you forget to turn it off.... :argh:

Collectively, Paintball often brags about how the game is so much safer than many other sports. It's really a marketing half-truth and self deception. Compared to the other sports, the numbers in paintball are almost statitically insignificant.

The accidents, injuries, deaths, lawsuits, and regulations WILL come. How draconian the regulations are will depend on how seriously Paintball as an industry takes safety before being forced to clean up.

[GT]

The accidents, injuries, deaths, lawsuits, and regulations WILL come. How draconian the regulations are will depend on how seriously Paintball as an industry takes safety before being forced to clean up.


Agreed (However I do not think throwing a 14 y/o kid in jail because he order crappy macro from 32*, nor pressing criminal charges),
so lets turn this into a meaningful post, for all perticipants. Two questions"

1. What should the industry do to make pb more safe?
2. What are YOU doing to insure a more safe playing environment, locally?

[SlartyBartFast]

Agreed (However I do not think throwing a 14 y/o kid in jail because he order crappy macro from 32*, nor pressing criminal charges),
so lets turn this into a meaningful post, for all perticipants. Two questions"

1. What should the industry do to make pb more safe?
2. What are YOU doing to insure a more safe playing environment, locally?

Well, there may be no criminal charges to press but if a civil suit resulted you'd name the 14 yr old kid and 32* (or whoever sold the bad equipment). If 32* (or whoever) clearly stated the limited nature of safe uses for the product, then there are charges to be filed against the kid or whoever built the setup.

As for the questions:

1- Stick to the bloody standards they set. Set more standards. Draconianly enforce the standards and train all vendors in how to inspect equipment for substandard parts. Certify technicians. Test and certify parts.

2- I make sure I know what I'm talking about and bring up infractions politely with the field owners and refs. I stay away from any involvement with the egos and tourny wannabes.

Sad to say but I'm at a loss what else I could do personally.

[rabidchihauhau]

ummmm - WRONG!

by virtue of the fact that the tank is holding 4500 psi, or 5000 psi, or 3000 psi, the pressure to use for testing is the max - 5000 psi.

The standard - which if you want to read boring legaleze I'll be happy to post - is that everything downstream be testing to the working pressure of the highest pressure rating of any component - which in this case is the tank.

If the industry wants to do different thread sizes for different pressures, fine - then you could restrict your marker to taking only 1800, or only 3000, but for the time being, since systems are intended and engineered to allow a 5000 psi tank to be hooked up to it, everything downstream MUST have a burst pressure of 5000 x 4.5.

Besides, your macro line that 'tests' to 1000 psi is only intended for 1000 / 4.5 - unless it has stamped/printed on it that its WORKING pressure is 1000 psi.

Macroline, microline and anything other than pressure tested steel braided hose WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED FOR USE WITH PAINTBALL GUNS IF THE PREVAILING STANDARDS WERE ENFORCED. Period. No arguments, no weasling around it.

I will not install it on a marker because of liability issues, I will not sell it for someone else to install for liability issues and I will not work on a marker that has it installed without first replacing the fittings and hose with steel braid. What you do after its out of my shop is your business - untill you play on the same field with me - and then its, no play until you bring the marker up to standard.

I'm really sorry that you're selling/profiting from substandard product and yes, that statement is probably going to piss you off, but given your previous response there's really no other way to put it. If someone gets injured by a system with your hose on it, the only thing that would prevent you from bearing the burden of a lawsuit is the probability that you don't have deep enough pockets to make it worthwhile. If you were asked to testify as to whether it met existing safety standards or not, you'd have to answer NO. There it is, end of story. I really don't care what other people 'do' - the fact remains that they are outside the regs and that makes them unsafe.

[FragTek]

I have a funny macroline injury story I should have told earlier... Gather 'round boys and girls it's story time.

About 2 years ago when I had my E-mag I purchased a used 88/4500 Apocalypse for it (the old blocky SS reg Apoc.). I remember getting it all setup on my E-Mag (which I had macro installed on w/ a 1000psi working pressure) and adjusting the output to 850 psi. Everything was peachy and dandy and it worked great, until I noticed there was a small leak in the on/off assembly of the Apoc's reg. So with this matter I took the tank down to one of the local shops that I frequent and took a seat in the back at the workbench. I took the entire reg. apart, replaced a few o-rings, reassembled it, put some air in it, and tested the on/off... worked fine!

I put the tank back on my gun and reconnected the maco, reset the output to 850 psi, turned the tank of and took a few shots, wow, everything works great :) I set the gun down on the bench still aired up and about .5 second after setting it down while I still had my face in the general area the macroline burst in half and lacerated my face (wow how fun!). My first reaction was wtf, crappy old macroline, so I just cut off past where it burst and reconnected it, refilled the tank, and the next time as soon as I turned on the tank, boom, it blew again and this time lashed the top of my hand (argh wtf!!! stupid crappy macroline right?). So i said screw this, went intot the front of the shop, cut me off a nice brand new piece of KAPP 1000 psi working pressure line, connected it all up, refilled the tank, and turned it on... can ya guess what happened? Yeah that's right, it blew again, lashed the back of my hand again. So now I have a bleeding face and a numb hand. At this point, after taking off the old macro and then blowing a brand new piece, it finally struck me like a dumbass... omfg, my tank reg is blown! And with 3 seconds of quick investigating, yes, the tank reg had blown and was dumping all 4000+ psi into the macroline at the flip of the on/off switch.

So, let this be a lesson learned everybody. Don't be a FragTek! When your macroline bursts, check your tank reg FIRST, it may not be your crappy macrolines fault :shooting:

Ok so that's my story, buhbye.

[SlartyBartFast]

Macroline, microline and anything other than pressure tested steel braided hose WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED FOR USE WITH PAINTBALL GUNS IF THE PREVAILING STANDARDS WERE ENFORCED. Period. No arguments, no weasling around it.

...

I'm really sorry that you're selling/profiting from substandard product and yes, that statement is probably going to piss you off, but given your previous response there's really no other way to put it.

To use your own phrase: ummmmmmm WRONG!

I agree whole heartedly that differnt threads and fill nipples and other steps must be taken.

But your're wrong about only braided hose being appropriate. Look around on the Parker website (I posted links to specific catalogues in another thread).

You can get hose and fittings (even swivels) that are good upto 10's of thousands of psi working pressure.

[SlartyBartFast]

So, let this be a lesson learned everybody. Don't be a FragTek!

Sounds like fine advice. :D

There's another consideration with the situation. What's the pressure rating of the fittings? 10,000 psi WP hose is useless if placed on a barb fitting. The type of fitting needs to correspond to the working pressure as well.

[rabidchihauhau]

SLARTY,

you just supported my argument. get the stuff that is properly rated. hose, fittings, everything else.

if you want to spend that kind of $ on plastic, and if its rated - go for it

[Muzikman]

To use your own phrase: ummmmmmm WRONG!

I agree whole heartedly that differnt threads and fill nipples and other steps must be taken.

But your're wrong about only braided hose being appropriate. Look around on the Parker website (I posted links to specific catalogues in another thread).

You can get hose and fittings (even swivels) that are good upto 10's of thousands of psi working pressure.

I have never seen Macro (or Micro) fittings that will work in the paintball industry (1/8" NPT) that are rated at all. This is what scares me so much about the use of Macro lines, not just that the line it's self isn't safe, but that the fittings that are being used are unsafe. This goes for the swivel fittings that are used with Steel Braid somes times (Ie. Kapp swivels). I have seen way too many of them blow.

[Tunaman]

Well we DID test the Parker Macro. In three similar tests taken off of 3 different rolls and lot numbers, the Norgren Swivel fittings started to leak at 1300. They blew out at 1450. I suspect the non-swivel ones would fare better. I refuse to crank it up any higher, we we can't seem to blow the hose at 1450. Just be careful and insert the macro in hard till you hear it click/bump in. Always check macro before gassing up. Always use good hose and fittings. Cheap imported stuff just doesn't cut it at all. Stay away from 1000+ psi input. That is high enough to really hurt. ;) Respect the Macro! :D

[-=Squid=-]

Well we DID test the Parker Macro. In three similar tests taken off of 3 different rolls and lot numbers, the Norgren Swivel fittings started to leak at 1300. They blew out at 1450. I suspect the non-swivel ones would fare better. I refuse to crank it up any higher, we we can't seem to blow the hose at 1450. Just be careful and insert the macro in hard till you hear it click/bump in. Always check macro before gassing up. Always use good hose and fittings. Cheap imported stuff just doesn't cut it at all. Stay away from 1000+ psi input. That is high enough to really hurt. ;) Respect the Macro! :D

For real.

The only occurances of macroline spontaneously bursting are when people dump unsafe pressures into them. At 850 PSI, I had POLYERETHANE TUBING as macro once. For those of you who dont know a lot about polymers and plastics, this is the same stuff used on the front of cockers (well, vinyl is used a lot too) and behind your fishtanks. It lasted about half a tank before it burst, and it never burst when regged down before being pressurized.

The people bashing macroline as though it is unsafe are the people who "have seen it" totally blow up, and mess people up... which simply does not happen. If you are running the proper pressures into your gun (no greater than 850-900 PSI, because after all, no guns need more than that) through good macroline, a small hole will be burst, and air will filter out. It doesnt "explode."

Yall' just need to learn how tuff Nylon really is.

[rabidchihauhau]

Squid,

like everyone else, you seem to be deliberately missing the point.

'run safe pressures into your macroline, then it won't fail'.

You need to control the pressure through a regulator in order to do that. Regulators fail. If things downstream from the reg are not properly rated, they will fail also.

This discussion has nothing whatsoever to do with whether macroline can 'take' the pressure - it has to do with proper safety and use practices.

The bottle containing your 3000/4500 psi is tested to bursting - 4.5 x the stated 'use' pressure. We DO NOT fill out tanks to 20,000+ psi because 'they can take it' - we fill them to their WORKING pressure in order to have a safety margin.

The same rules apply to fittings/hose/systems downstream from your tank.

What you are saying is the same as saying 'well, since I survived that 1500 foot fall without a parachute once, I can jump that distance every time'.

Not.

Let's get on the subject and stay on the subject. If the macroline you are using is not burst tested to 4.5 x the working pressure of your tank system, it is improper and unsafe to use it.

[SlartyBartFast]

Let's get on the subject and stay on the subject. If the macroline you are using is not burst tested to 4.5 x the working pressure of your tank system, it is improper and unsafe to use it.

I'm not in a possition to go and ask my old Engineering Profesors, but I don't think you're right about that.

The whole reason you put safety valves in a system is so that components downstream of a pressure regulation or producing device aren't damaged from being over-pressurised.

How many circuit breakers and fuses do you put on a electric system? A short COULD happen at the same time a circuit breaker fails. But, you still only put one breaker on a circuit.

Should there have been additional safety features on the CO2 tank that killed that mother? No. Had the bleed hole been properly clear, the accident would not have happened.

I have a strong suspicion that the working pressure of the fittings and hose need only be the expected output of the regulator. To ensure the working pressure is not exceeded, there needs to be a pressure relief valve or burst disk that will activate whenever the WP is exceeded.

So, if you put a 110psi burst disk in the system you can use hose rated at 100psi WP. The problem, is that I think many of the regulators or systems don't have pressure relief valves or burst disks.

[speeddemon]

I'm not in a possition to go and ask my old Engineering Profesors, but I don't think you're right about that.

The whole reason you put safety valves in a system is so that components downstream of a pressure regulation or producing device aren't damaged from being over-pressurised.

How many circuit breakers and fuses do you put on a electric system? A short COULD happen at the same time a circuit breaker fails. But, you still only put one breaker on a circuit.

Should there have been additional safety features on the CO2 tank that killed that mother? No. Had the bleed hole been properly clear, the accident would not have happened.

I have a strong suspicion that the working pressure of the fittings and hose need only be the expected output of the regulator. To ensure the working pressure is not exceeded, there needs to be a pressure relief valve or burst disk that will activate whenever the WP is exceeded.

So, if you put a 110psi burst disk in the system you can use hose rated at 100psi WP. The problem, is that I think many of the regulators or systems don't have pressure relief valves or burst disks.

Wow thats exactly what I was trying to tell him, but he won't listen. Sure he's right in one way, that making sure the WP of everything is up to the pressure of the tank is the safest way, but its impractical. No matter how much you preach to people it won't happen, it doesn't happen. The reason you have the burst disks is so you don't have to have everything with such a high working pressure rating. If everything had to be rated to 10000+psi, then whats the point of having burst disks after the reg if everything should be able to take it. Go read what he posted from the ASTM in one of his posts above, he seems to be misunderstanding it.

I like the electricity analogy, I was thinking the exact same thing.

[shatter_storm]

by virtue of the fact that the tank is holding 4500 psi, or 5000 psi, or 3000 psi, the pressure to use for testing is the max - 5000 psi.

The standard - which if you want to read boring legaleze I'll be happy to post - is that everything downstream be testing to the working pressure of the highest pressure rating of any component - which in this case is the tank.

If the industry wants to do different thread sizes for different pressures, fine - then you could restrict your marker to taking only 1800, or only 3000, but for the time being, since systems are intended and engineered to allow a 5000 psi tank to be hooked up to it, everything downstream MUST have a burst pressure of 5000 x 4.5.


One quick point. Could we get a poll of the manufacturers that test their valving systems, solinoids, regs, internal pneumatics, o-rings, and other assorted parts of their markers to 20k PSI?

Oh wait, there are no manufacturers that do such testing?
Burst disks exist for a reason. A reg should not output more than 100, 1000, 1800, or whatever PSI it's designed for. The burst disks are set up so that a properly designed reg that fails will not let 4500 psi into the rest of the system, the disk will blow and the tank will vent. Now, I'm not saying that manufacturers always put working burst disks, blowoff valves and overpressure valves on their regulators, but it *should* be done. When properly designed, you can certainly use fittings and hoses that are not rated up to the burst pressure of the tank, because *it's not necessary*.

[rabidchihauhau]

sorry, but you guys are wrong again.

and its logically obvious why, since we have several real world reports of systems that have allowed more than the 'proper' output pressure out of the system;

now lets look at this logically:

the low pressure side of HP tank systems have an 1800 psi burst disk placed on them

if your regulator is factory preset to 850 psi

and the burst disk blows after 1800 psi

and the reg fails for some reason

what happens in between?

950 psi greater than your downstream system is supposed to see, and the burst disk worked exactly the way it was supposed to, that's what.

So, we're supposed to throw safety out the window, right?

No. We're supposed to use the correct parts.

Go read the CGA manuals and standards.

[speeddemon]

Ok then, well since we fill off 6000 psi bottles, then shouldn't our whole system be tested to 6000 x 4.5 (since often tanks are filled while on the gun)? Hmm, seems your stainless lines fall short of your own guidelines now too.

[-=Squid=-]

Well, if the regulators are the problem why dont we focus on making safer regulators, when our macroline/SS is as safe as it needs to be?

[Muzikman]

No matter which way you slice it, Macro line (especially the fittings) are not safe!

[-=Squid=-]

No matter which way you slice it, Macro line (especially the fittings) are not safe!
That seemed really random, especially considering macroline IS safe.

[SlartyBartFast]

the low pressure side of HP tank systems have an 1800 psi burst disk placed on them


Then "the correct parts" could quite happily be a properly rated burst disk. OSHA regulations (as well as Battlebots rules ;) ) seem to indicate that burst disks/pressure relief valves should be about 120% of maximum working pressure.

So, if you have fittings and line rated for 1000psi WP the burst disk should be 1200psi. But, what the heck, throw a 1000psi one on there and it'll be safer. :)

Actually, rabidchihauhau you fail to support your previous claims that the required WP rating of ALL components is the tank pressure. Following the example, the WP of the fittings and hoses would only have to be 1800psi to be absolutely, completely, undeniably safe.

But, if you consider that BURST pressure is 4.5 times WP, then the lines need only be rated at 1800/4.5=400psi. As long as the maximum WP used is only 400psi. But, if the reg was to fail, the hoses/fitting would need to be replaced (just as tanks can only be hydroed so many times before they're discarded).

Seeing as the paintball community at large could not be trusted to replace hoses and fittings under such an occurence, the 1800psi WP stuff should be used.

Another funny thing to note. In the "dire" situation of a reg failing and an 1800psi burst disk blowing on a system with a 850psi WP rating -- NOTHING DANGEROUS WOULD OCCUR. :eek:

The fittings and line would only have seen a little more than twice WP. Well below burst pressure meaning that everything would have remained intact (but may need replaced for the sake of safety).

Perhaps the question that should be asked every time we hear of exploding equipment is: What the :cuss: happened to your burst disk?

Is there any particular reason the industry has chosen 1800psi for LP burst disks? What's the standard burst disk on a CO2 tank rated at?

(Hasn't my position changed some? :rofl: )

[rabidchihauhau]

I'd give up on this 'debate' if it weren't so much fun to see how silly some of the responses are.

You are, in fact correct about filling off of 6000 psi systems. That is precisely the reason why PADI dive shops refused to fill tanks for so many years. Nothing has changed - they just needed the money, which is why they're ignoring procedure.

[SlartyBartFast]

I'd give up on this 'debate' if it weren't so much fun to see how silly some of the responses are.

You are, in fact correct about filling off of 6000 psi systems. That is precisely the reason why PADI dive shops refused to fill tanks for so many years. Nothing has changed - they just needed the money, which is why they're ignoring procedure.

:confused:

What the bejezzuz are you going on about? PADI shops once apon a time wouldn't fill tanks because they didn't want noobs handling compressed air systems. The only procedure they're ignoring (with regards to filling paintball cylinders specifically) is letting someone without PADI certification get their hands on pressurised air.

While I've agreed with much of what you've posted in the past, you've started to talk through the top of your head now. :nono:

Dive and SCBA (the systems firefighters use) equipment is often filled from 5000 and 6000psi tanks. 3000psi SCUBA and 2300psi SCBA equipment is filled tanks of any pressure 3000, 4500, 5000, or 6000psi.

Are 2300psi SCBA rated to 6000psi working pressure? How are they filling them safely then?

How do you refute my argument that in your doomsday scenario of a reg failure and a bursts disk going off no harm is done and nothing dangerous happened? Unless you've got you eye pressed up against the burst disk relief hole and get a pressure injection of air. :ouch:

Put your money where your mouth is. Show me where my reasoning is 'silly'.

[SlartyBartFast]

Well, if the regulators are the problem why dont we focus on making safer regulators, when our macroline/SS is as safe as it needs to be?

Well, at the end of the analysis the only poorly enforced/dangerous aspect of the whole thing is burst disk and pressure relief settings that are incompatible with the components used.

Ideally, the burst disk should seem to be best at 110 to 120% of the maximum output of the regulator (which shouldn't be anywhere near full tank pressure) and all fittings and components having a WP rating equal to the maximum output of the regulator.

[Beemer]

The people bashing macroline as though it is unsafe are the people who "have seen it" totally blow up, and mess people up... which simply does not happen.

What..........Ya it does .........No it doesnt



Should there have been additional safety features on the CO2 tank that killed that mother? No. Had the bleed hole been properly clear, the accident would not have happened.

Additional safety features ARE always better. Had they NEVER switched from a 90 degree design[california water spickett valve] 2 people wouldnt be DEAD.
To expensive and to heavy = 2 dead




One quick point. Could we get a poll of the manufacturers that test their valving systems,
Oh wait, there are no manufacturers that do such testing?

Can you say AirGun Designs

41 of your peers in the industry on the ASTM committee said all guns should be rated to 3000psi.[wonder why that is] must be rocket science





Now, I'm not saying that manufacturers always put working burst disks, blowoff valves and overpressure valves on their regulators, but it *should* be done. When properly designed, you can certainly use fittings and hoses that are not rated up to the burst pressure of the tank, because *it's not necessary*.

BINGO.........what regs do and what regs dont???????????? On the second sentence, Wrong..Tell that to the guys at NASA...............Oh wait this aint rocket science ITS PAINTBALL



Well, if the regulators are the problem why dont we focus on making safer regulators, when our macroline/SS is as safe as it needs to be?

BINGO again.....Its all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and not SAFETY

When macro can hold 3000psi then you can say its SAFE

Peace Out
Beemer

[SlartyBartFast]

Its all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and not SAFETY

Umm. The arguments are getting a little asinine.

How safe is safe enough? Seeing as compressors can generate tens of thousands of psi, at what point do you rely on a safety device or two?

How many safety devices are enough? Cars could be much safer to the point the chance of injury of driver, passenger, or pedestrian could millions to one against. But they'd cost a couple billion each.

I really do question the logic behind the 3000psi ASTM rating for paintball guns. In fact if it's for the whole gun, it's completely stupid and impossible to attain. Think you can find a small 3-way and ram that'll handle 3000psi? The poppet valves and so forth in most guns?

How safe is the Automag if 3000psi makes it to the dump chamber? Even the venerable Mag relies on a relief valve for that.

A standard written by a comitte that knew its head from its backside would have required adequately rated safety reliefs or burst disks in each pressure zone of the marker. The Mag has one for the dump chamber. Does it have one for the input?

Cockers, Matrix's, Angel's and all the other dual pressure guns should have two disks valves each (one on the input and one in the LP section).


When macro can hold 3000psi then you can say its SAFE

No you can't. You can say it's safe for 3000psi. :p

And PS: the NASA guy would laugh you out of the building if you told him all connected systems had to be designed for the highest possible pressure generated.

[Beemer]

Umm. The arguments are getting a little asinine.

How safe is safe enough? Seeing as compressors can generate tens of thousands of psi, at what point do you rely on a safety device or two?

Tell the 2 dead people safety precautions are asinine.

You are right and I am wrong. It aint rocket science its PaintBall after all


Peace Out
Beemer

[-=Squid=-]

When macro can hold 3000psi then you can say its SAFE

Peace Out
Beemer

1) Why do you need it to safely work at 3000 PSI?
2) Ever notice that most good macroline available works at 1000PSI? That means that it has a burst pressure of at 3 times that. They usually cut it in 1/3's or 1/5's.

There is simply no need for it. Take care of your equipment, use GOOD macroline, make sure your tank is in good working order... your safe. Simple as that. I play a lot of tournements, and go to a lot of places, and honestly have ONLY seen a macroline failure when I PERSONALLY WAS TESTING A DIFFERENT TYPE OF NYLON (6/6... dont use it)

For real people... Macroline works just fine... hence the reason that most people use it.

[xXHavokXx]

I know why so many people dont use steel hose. It's apain in the *** if your gun isnt made with it then you always end up with pieces that are too long or not long enough and you end up with long lines hangin all out where as macro you cut and snip to make it perfect. Aside from that you can kink it and its a pain to deal with when taking it off guns with really tight line. Also , as a drop whore it's alot easier to change macro than it is steel line.

I dont think i've seen a macro hose blow in a long time, I have however see kids completely twist their steel line to be inoperable.

[SlartyBartFast]

Tell the 2 dead people safety precautions are asinine.

You are right and I am wrong. It aint rocket science its PaintBall after all

Peace Out
Beemer

But those two dead people are dead because of faulty safety equipment, negligence, and incompetence no?

The only way to make a properly maintained CO2 bottle any safer would be not to fill it. :rolleyes:

Perhaps the valve could be welded or brazed to the bottle, but not much else. Even that wouldn't stop a bottle with a faulty valve from blowing loose if the ASA doesn't have the proper bleed hole.

The one that killed the mother should have been stopped by three separate things. The bottle should have been correctly attached to the valve, the player should have been aware that he was unscrewing the bottle from the valve, the valve safety hole should have started venting before the valve was unscrewed from the bottle. So the failure was with the player and the twat that last serviced the tank.

I'm not familiar with the other case.

The other recent death I am aware of is from the store owner that though it was a good idea and try to build his own booster equipment. While tragic, that was a result of ignorance/carelessness not safety concerns.

[SlartyBartFast]

2) Ever notice that most good macroline available works at 1000PSI?

As long as you protect it so that the maxium pressure is 1000psi. A 1200psi burst disk would be fine.

[Muzikman]

You guys seem to be stuck on the line it's self. What about the fittings? Show me a macro line fitting that is used in (or can be used in) paintball that is rated at all.

[SlartyBartFast]

Show me a macro line fitting that is used in (or can be used in) paintball that is rated at all.

They're ALL rated. It's just a question of for what. :p

[speeddemon]

You guys seem to be stuck on the line it's self. What about the fittings? Show me a macro line fitting that is used in (or can be used in) paintball that is rated at all.
http://www.newageindustries.com/nylotube.asp

There you go, look on that page at their macro, and there is a link to their brass fittings.

Now they say the fittings can handle whatever the tubing can, they don't have an actual rating on the fittings, so who knows. Im interested enough to try it anyways.