Drawback to having the RTP (X)...

[punkncat]

We have a mech only tourney coming up and my RTP has been "banned". He will allow no RT's in the tourney.
I tried to explain that this wasn't the same as the old RT's or a tippy RT , but he couldn't be convinced. Mine is the new X valve RTP. If it just didn't have the RT pro over the X I could play with it , even though its the same valve.

:mad:

[sabrefanpc]

doh!

thats too bad man. someoone needs to talk some sense into that field owner. now that i think about it why is it called an rt pro?

not that it matters, but isnt there a weight difference between rtp valves and xvalves?

[Adrenaline_Junkie]

We should get this thread rollin than you can show him that there isnt anything illegal about RT valves on mags.

There is a weight diff between the old dtyle rtp and the new xvalve, one is aluminum the other is steal. The newer rtp vavles are xvalves though.

[punkncat]

The newer rtp vavles are xvalves though.

Exactly what mine is.

[Adrenaline_Junkie]

Yeah, your valve is totally legal as long as it doesnt rapid fire.

[Chronobreak]

somone go tell the owner its 2004 not 1996 anymore :rolleyes:

[sabrefanpc]

:tard:
so they are x valves but say rtp on them?

[SpecialBlend2786]

:tard:
so they are x valves but say rtp on them?

yeah, basically it says rtp on it, but there is an X in the backround

[punkncat]

Yup , xactly.....

[danoxide]

gas up your marker and show him that there is no bounce in it...just keep trying...




goodluck :cheers:



EDIT: or sand it off :headbang:



ohh yea i need this on the bottom of every post :cheers:

[slade]

its aluminum, sand it off and re-ano it!! :D

seriously, just gas it up and show him that it has no bounce (as long as it doesnt have bounce...)

[WenULiVeUdiE]

Show him there is no bounce. That's what he's worried about. Once he knows there isnt any, you should be able to play.

Or just cover it with tape.

[Bad_Dog]

yup the valves with just the X on them are no different from the one such as yours.

suprised that a field owner wouldn't understand something like this, if anything... hopefully he'll learn something from it.

[Lohman446]

Does anyone else find this amusing..

AGD complains often about bounce and illegal setups in tournament markers

The X-valve, if not set up just right, can be bouncy as any microswitch.

When I look at my Shocker and my X-valved mechanical mag... well I can think of more ways to "push" the rules with the mag than the shocker.

[Xyxyll]

AGD made the retrovalve somewhere along the lines of 10 years ago. There weren't many bounce boards out back then. ;)

[Lohman446]

I know.. innovation

[TAW]

Bug him nicely to shoot the Mag so he knows how it works. If he still does not like it put in a ULE trigger kit or an AM/MM on/off assembly to kill all RT effect.

[RRfireblade]

Guess I'll be the underdog here but I agree with the feild owner.

Even without bounce or sweetspotting,the RT trigger enhances ROF ,especially if you really know how to use it. The correct technique can produce a ROF similar to that of sweetspotting even though the valve doesn't seem the bounce on it's own.This can not be reproduced on a non-RT type trigger system.

Sorry but that's my opinion.

Stick the ULT in it,tuned correctly and then maybe he'll cut you a break.

Or bust out one of the Tourny tried and true (gasp) Classic valves. ;)

[Wc Keep]

Guess I'll be the underdog here but I agree with the feild owner.

Even without bounce or sweetspotting,the RT trigger enhances ROF ,especially if you really know how to use it. The correct technique can produce a ROF similar to that of sweetspotting even though the valve doesn't seem the bounce on it's own.This can not be reproduced on a non-RT type trigger system.

Sorry but that's my opinion.

Stick the ULT in it,tuned correctly and then maybe he'll cut you a break.

Or bust out one of the Tourny tried and true (gasp) Classic valves. ;)


i used a classic valve all last year in my tourneys. ;)

if he really wont let you play in this tourney with that then tell him to ban all eblades that bounce timmys and especially dm4's from his regular tourneys cause they bounce even more than an rt.

[deathstalker]

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

We have a mech only tourney coming up...

[tony3]

Where's Tom when we need him. Hopefully, Tom can find some time to call him up and explain it to him.

[Wc Keep]

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\


which is why i said in his NORMAL TOURNEYS. whats the matter dont people read completely anymore.

[Chris42050]

Gas up your gun and hand it to the field owner. Let him shoot it and decide.

[68magOwner]

yea, have him shoot the marker, if it cant be double fired, then its totally legal and he cant not let you play with it (i think he cant, but, it is his field so...)

[teufelhunden]

Tuna nailed it...

an RTP in a mech only tourney can be like a HK Speed in a young guns tourney..

[Adrenaline_Junkie]

An RTP isnt like a HK in a all mech young guns tourny if it isnt rapid firing. Did tuna even say anything in this thread?

[RRfireblade]

Reactive trigger systems are generally considered illegal because they artificially enhance ROF even if they DON'T bounce. There's more to constitute a legal trigger than just 1 pull,1 shot.There are plenty of trigger styles that have come along that are not legal despite that fact that they meet the 1 for 1 rule.

What's the point of getting into a Mech only Tourny and arguing for an un-fair advantage?Talk about hypocrisy.

Might as well just go play electro w/ bounce a ramp. :rolleyes:

I don't intend to sound mean,I'm just saying that you(generally speaking)are playing a 'mech' only Tourny for what reason? To get away from those who prefer bending the rules, I assume.

FYI, I have built(I happen have one right here on my desk) mechanical guns that ramp.There no more legal IMO, than any other artificial ROF enhancemnt even though they start out as 1 pull,1 shot. Crazy fun......yup. :D But legal.......nope.

That's all I'm saying. ;)

[Wc Keep]

well rr the rt is still a mech gun. it says mech only tourney so why exclude a certain type of gun?

could you make my rt pro a ramper if i sent it to you?

[Beemer]

Gee RR what if I only ran 600input pressure to my RT.[oh ya might as well just run a classic then] if your real fast you can get 12bps on that.

To bad todays guns have taken the human speed[skill] factor out of the game.

All I hear today is AGD guns are slower then everybody else. Why is that?

[teufelhunden]

An RTP isnt like a HK in a all mech young guns tourny if it isnt rapid firing. Did tuna even say anything in this thread?


You didn't even read the words I wrote, did you.

Fireblade, how much for one of those? :)

[RRfireblade]

well rr the rt is still a mech gun. it says mech only tourney so why exclude a certain type of gun?

could you make my rt pro a ramper if i sent it to you?

That's a fair question and your right. Perhaps 'Mechanical' alone is not a good enough distinction.

Mechanicals can ramp(as I mentioned), shoot full auto and do a number of the same things that make an Electronic gun illegal. I guess you have to draw the line somewhere.

My tourny, My line......I guess.

Stock class,Modified Stock,Super Stock and Open class. And you thought 'Pump' play was pump play.

You'd have to break down Mech play the same way. I'm guessing RT's would be somewhere around super stock and open class. IDk.......gotta start somewhere.



As for your marker,I 'could' but I can't......I don't own the I.P., Sorry.

[RRfireblade]

Gee RR what if I only ran 600input pressure to my RT.[oh ya might as well just run a classic then] if your real fast you can get 12bps on that.

To bad todays guns have taken the human speed[skill] factor out of the game.

All I hear today is AGD guns are slower then everybody else. Why is that?

A) If you can only pull 12 on a classic valve and you can pull more on a RT than you've made my point,Thanks ;)

B) AGD's guns are consider slow when comparing 'Legal' mech to uncapped electro. Can't really aregue that I don't think. Then take an older software Emag w/ no buffering (which is the vast majority of most peoples experience) and a 16bps cap which transltes to ~13bps max and whatcha got? Sloooooooow. :D

C) Most of todays new breed have never shot a truly legal electro.They expect 15bps just by thinking that fast.........and the have LCD's to back it up.

[punkncat]

In the ad for the X valve it states "world's fastest mechanical marker".

I play with this marker most of the time. I don't whine and cry when I have to play against (insert fast bouncing/ramping electro) markers. I deal with it and continue to play my game , and well most of the time.

What has me pissed is that I am at a "disadvantage" all the time in tourneys and open play in ROF. And now when I get to be the one with the slight upper hand then some bogus anti RT rule is put into effect. And the only reason my marker falls under the ruling is because it says RT on the valve. Any other guy can register and play with an X valve and not a single head will turn.

I have a good cocker to use. And I am not scared to play on a more level field. But I will say this , if buddy (field owner) wants to pick straws about a mech tourney then he damn sure needs to do it for all tourneys in respect to insane fast electros.

Cap eveyone at 13BPS and be done with it. Thats fair...right?


Oh and thanks Rouge......

[RRfireblade]

List the plenty please. Id like to know which *plenty* you are referring to that are within the 1 shot 1 pull(and realease) rule and yet are not legal.

Come on now...you been around long enough. Rocking triggers,side pull trigger,triggers that pull in a non linear fashion.Email Bill MIlls and ask him what goes beyond the 1 for 1 rule.


The ULE Pro is a mechanical marker. Nothing hypocritical about that.

My point is, I feel a reactive trigger is an unfair advantage against non-reactive triggers. Don't really care who makes the ttigger. My ethics are not attached to a brand,only my conscience. ;)


If you read what punkncat said, and I quote "If it just didn't have the RT pro over the X I could play with it , even though its the same valve".

Technicallity...........if tht makes you feel better......fine.


Making it easier doesnt make it an unfair advantage or artificial.

It sure does.......sometimes. A full blown RT tippmann is 1 for 1.....it doesn't fire more than one shot on it's own.It requires pressure on the trigger for each shot to fire.Pressure on the trigger=a pull.Your finger definately moves back and forth for each shot.The RT just makes it 'easier' to do.

[RRfireblade]

;) Now youve made my point with trigger pull weight. Its obvious that a marker with a lighter pull will make it easier to attain higher ROF's than the same marker with a heavier pull. Artifical? No.

Or how about CO2 vs. Compressed Air recharge rates. Is that to be considered an artifical ROF enhancement too?

A) Except an RT isn't faster because of a lighter weighted trigger.


Stock class,Modified Stock,Super Stock and Open class. And you thought 'Pump' play was pump play. You'd have to break down Mech play the same way. I'm guessing RT's would be somewhere around super stock and open class. IDk.......gotta start somewhere


Now you know why they do it that way.

[Lohman446]

I have to agree with RR on this one.

I keep an X-valved mechanical mag around, and I had to put a ULT trigger kit in it to make it 1 shot 1 pull, as in I would not have gotten it past a competent chrono judge without it.

When it rains at a tournament and I start to see mechanicals come out, I :clap: because frankly, I have a noticeable advantage over any other "legal" mechanical marker, most Tippman RTs are not going to make it on field.

As for complaining about ramping/bouncing/etc those are not legal, and should be pulled from tournaments. For the record, the only markers I have seen illegal out of the box were the AGD E-mag with hybrid mode available, and a few E-bladed cockers. My Shocker was ridiculously legal out of the box - I think the pull was longer than my X-valved mechanical as a matter of fact. Its been fixed since then ;)

The point is, if you are having a mech only tournament.. they are trying to even the grounds, and the super mech mags, are not even. I think the field owner is an idiot or a jerk for allowing the X-valve and not the RT valve... but I'm sure AGD didn't just decide to rename them away from teh RT valve for no reason.

It just seems that we are willing to point in regards to other companies attempts to "push" the rules. Pushing of the rules is innovation, recall the controversy around HPA... the quick changer (Six Pack), the warp feed (force feed)....

[RRfireblade]

Come on, youve been around long enough to know better. A pull is a directional pressure.

Sure......but your just trying to split hairs. Directional pressure.....for how long? At what pressure? At what length of pull? Pick what ever side of the fence you like better, it's still splitting hairs over the same thing. :)


The Tippman RT, or a Reactive Mag does not require a pull(or directional pressure) by your finger once it goes reactive.

I disagree on that one.Except for extreme 'sweetspotting' (like 1200psi input or the like) there is definatlely movement of the trigger pull and return.That's the basis of how it works.Especially the Tippy RT.It will beat your fingers to a pulp with the speed and power of the movement by the end of the day.Neither of them will go full auto without any trigger movement....if so.....they would never stop shooting. It's not like a sear release on a blowback where you could just holf the trigger all the way back and have full auto fire.



BUt in this case, the organizer will let punkcat use the exact same valve as long as it doesnt say RT on the side.

True....supposedly....but only because of ignorance on his part. I'm sure if he knew what the difference was between the 2,the X would be out also.

Besides that.....IIRC, and Tom can correct me on this if I'm wrong, but I believe that since the inception of the Original Automag RT.....subsequent RT designations stand for "ReTro", not reactive trigger.

[fire1811]

if they are not allowing a regular RT in a mech only tournament dont ever expect the mecanical hAir trigger to be allowed.

[slade]

I disagree on that one.Except for extreme 'sweetspotting' (like 1200psi input or the like) there is definatlely movement of the trigger pull and return.That's the basis of how it works.Especially the Tippy RT.It will beat your fingers to a pulp with the speed and power of the movement by the end of the day.Neither of them will go full auto without any trigger movement....if so.....they would never stop shooting. It's not like a sear release on a blowback where you could just holf the trigger all the way back and have full auto fire.
i think that he is saying that a regular trigger requires aplication and release of pressure for each shot. a Tippmann RT only requires aplication of pressure for it to shoot continuously.

[RRfireblade]

i think that he is saying that a regular trigger requires aplication and release of pressure for each shot. a Tippmann RT only requires aplication of pressure for it to shoot continuously.

I know. I was saying that the trigger on the Tippy does move back and forth for each shot even with full reactivity.It only requires you to maintain pressure but your finger is moving along with the trigger.that's the assistance I'm talking about weather it be slight like a 'normal' RT mag or extreme like a sweetspot condition.

[RRfireblade]

Interesting, I thought you were splitting hairs. I dont have to pick a side of the fence....if it doesnt bounce, and isnt electronic---its a mechanical. Just that simple

Try and keep comments in context...it's a bit confusing when you mix subjects and responses together.

Splitting hairs was clearly refering to what constitutes a full trigger pull, not whether somethings runs on batteries or not.


Until you apply your logic evenly and fairly to ALL markers and their upgrades, your rule is unfair and prejudiced.

I do. ANY upgrade that allow the marker,as part of it's regular function, to apply a force to the trigger in order to assist your finger in making a complete stroke should be considered illegal. I think that should be quite clear.


LOL...I didnt know there was an extreme and non-extreme sweetspot. Thats a new one

Oh,'cause I thought there was a difference between putting 800psi and 1000 psi into a Mag. I guess in both cases they 'sweetspot' equally. Silly me. ;) Guess Zman was wasting his time using 2000.


Youd argue that your finger is pulling the trigger every shot on a bounce/RT/Sweetspot marker. Id argue that it isnt.

You can have your opinion on that. I'm simply saying that besides the marker contributing to the force of the trigger return,which simply over powers the muscle force exerted by your finger faster than you can react to that force,there is little difference in the sequence of events when using an RT trigger.


Your finger is most certainly pulling every shot of a non-bouncing XValve. And follows both the letter and the intent of the 1 shot 1 pull rule and should be legal.

And lastly......

As I have stated from the very begining and in this post, if the marker when being used in it's normal condition,is capable of applying a dynamic force onto to the trigger mechanism itself, that assists the user in attaining a ROF that he could not otherwise attain without that force being applied....it should be considered illegal.....IMO.

Thank you.........Good Night Folks........ :D :headbang:

[FallNAngel]

There are plenty of trigger styles that have come along that are not legal despite that fact that they meet the 1 for 1 rule.

Can you name some?

[RRfireblade]

Can you name some?


It's not really important to the discussion here but for every way you can image to fire a paintball marker, there have been styles of triggers.There's a reason you really don't see many extreme variations around anymore.(besides shapes and curves) I'm really not interested in going off in that tangent,there's really no point there.

The bottom line is there are more specific guidelines to what what is generally considered a legal trigger set up. It goes beyond the simple basis of 1 pull, one shot. That is mearly the minimum requirement and a starting point. What is attempted to be controlled with the rules that govern triggers and trigger pulls, have to do with continuing the 'spirit' of a generally accepted method of firing a paintball marker and doing so(along with a comparable ROF)with out assistance from the marker itself.

In recent times,unfortunately and mostly do to the high amount of money invested in sponsorships,advertising and other monetary incentives,those guidelines have often been blurred. Perhaps to the point that they may never fully be realized again.Such is the reason for re-newed interest in mechancal and pump styles of play. Hopefully to get back to the roots of the game, for some, and to get away from the cheating and general unsportsman like play for others and/or both. (The SP issue is helping also ;) )



Ultimately this entire discussion as it relates to this thread comes down to personal opinion.

You either think that.........

A Reactive Trigger System, by adding a dynamic output from the marker which applies a force directly on the trigger mechanism in order to create a trigger action that can not be created or reproduced by the user themself, assists them in reaching a ROF higher than would otherwise be attained with out that assistance......

Or ......


You don't.

How much that assistance actually is....is irrelevant. It's a yes or no answer.

I've stated my opinion.......and stand behind it.

Be truly honest with yourself and answer it.

That's all the debate that really needs to be done. ;)

[Wc Keep]

ok guys this is getting a little heated so im gonna step in and say cant we all get along?

rogue how can you get a classic valve to sweetspot at 800?

but guys the problem is that there needs to be a better definition of reactive. the tippmann rt really is what killed it for the rt mag. there really is a safety issue there.

[RRfireblade]

ok guys this is getting a little heated so im gonna step in and say cant we all get along?

rogue how can you get a classic valve to sweetspot at 800?

but guys the problem is that there needs to be a better definition of reactive. the tippmann rt really is what killed it for the rt mag. there really is a safety issue there.

No heat here, just trying to follow this crazy wandering path........quotes getting applied to un related comments or previously made points.Not sure what's up there.

Feels kinda like hitting a moving target when each point keeps getting twisted and applied to another.

Anywho........

I 'thought' we were trying to discuss whether an RT trigger gave an un-fair advantage over a non-reactive trigger and should be allowed to compete equally. I think it does give that advantage and I think it shouldn't be allow to compete equally.

Somehow it keeps getting turned around in directions aimed at no point.....for some unknown reason.

I guess I'll just bow out here, since I've stated everything I needed to state.....like half a dozen times already.

Anyone who wishes can go back,read it and apply it how ever they wish.


Thanks all....bed time now. :)

[Wc Keep]

hey rr..............come to aone.

[RRfireblade]

I would like too but it's quite a ways from Florida.....not sure if I can pull it off.

I've got a lot going on right now at work and all.......I'll think about it,it's not out of the question.

Thanks for asking. :)

[Wc Keep]

its a garanteed good time if you come.

[RRfireblade]

I believe you, I'm a NewYorker.....lost in the south. I know how the N.E. parties. :D

[Wc Keep]

lol.

[Z-man]

Coming in on this at page 2 I will say this. I have a hard time seeing how the reactivity of the RT valve with or without a ULT mod should be scrutinized or regulated any more than different trigger pull lengths, different pull pressures or hinge vs sliding triggers.

I mean to a certain level, everything is a mechanical advantage.

Consider the '98 autococker sliding style trigger as compared to say a mech Spyder trigger as compared to the hair trigger. Though none of these have any bounce that is noticeable they have VERY different pull lengths and I am just willing to bet that you cannot pull the autococker trigger nearly as fast as the hair trigger or the spyder. Why? the Autococker trigger has nearly an inch to pull vs. the 1mm the hair does. Now does that seem like an equal playing field?

Then we could go an look at it from a different angle. How about trigger pressure required to fire the marker? The rugged Tippmann 98 stock trigger has a bit more pull and weight to it than say... the hair ULT trigger. Does it seem fair to allow for different pressures? Surely the person with the trigger that you can tap can shoot faster than someone who must use 2 fingers to pull.

If the marker will NOT fire unless you, the user pulls the trigger, and then resets requiring you to pull the trigger again, I don't see how you can say any more than some valves are faster than others.

If the trigger on one marker needs 1/20th of a second to reset and another one will reset in 1/40th of a second what does that mean? It just means that one will reset faster then the other making you the user the limiting factor. You put a ULT on a classic valve and some fast fingered foo just might be able to out shoot that valve. Does that mean that its unfair to put that same foo on ULT RT valve and allow him to reach his max potential or is it better to simply cap the ROF? If the marker wont fire, WON’T FIRE, unless you pull the trigger, meaning that it’s limited to human ability, the only thing you can say is that some triggers require more time to cycle then others (ex: autococker single trigger sliding triggers vs HAI Trigger or RT trigger). The more effort and/or distance you have to cover to fire to pull the trigger and fire the marker is what slows you down. The shorter and lighter the pull the closer you can creep up on your human limitations. We see it in the electro world and its still true here in the mech marker world. The hair trigger is by FAR the worst offender in that respect. I see no chance for anyone else to come close to the tolerences.

What it seems to me is that if you feel that the bounce of the RT pushing the trigger into place even if it is set were no matter how hard you try IT WILL NOT RAPID-FIRE or double fire is an unfair mechanical advantage then you must also consider variables like those I have listed above as unfair. Quite frankly, It sounds like the level of equality that you are looking for calls for a separate class for each mech marker. I mean honestly that is the only 100% fair way. If we all use the same markers, we all will have the same weight, balance, size, trigger behavior (including any "unfair" mechanical advantage) and ergonomics. Of course then you might have to consider the tanks used. High flow tanks vs Presets? CO2 only? Different types of oil? different viscosity levels might influence the speed at which the parts reset.


Overkill? I dunno you tell me. Where do you draw the line? At what point am I splitting hairs and at what point is there actually some egregious unfair advantage that allows one person to win and the other loose. Are you simply trying to limit ROF or is there something else?

[Wc Keep]

zman hit up aone

[athomas]

The RT or retro mag, if properly setup could do it and since it was one of the first and the valve was able to actually maintain the rate of fire, was subsequently used as an example of an illegal gun. This scared many field owners away from allowing them.

Just about any mechanical gun can be made to rapid fire. Tippmans have an RT kit that actually promotes the use of reactivity. Any blowback gun can be made to do it by rounding the sears.

If I show the field owner that my Spyder can be made to go into a rapid fire state, then maybe all spyders should be banned because it is possible that they can all be made to do this. Right? No. Not at all. One bad gun does not make a bad line of guns. Therefore, any retro valve mag should also be chacked on an individual basis. I'll bet only a very few would be overly reactive to be considered illegal. And that would only be by user design or by having a part that is worn out and needs replacing.

[RRfireblade]

Quite frankly, It sounds like the level of equality that you are looking for calls for a separate class for each mech marker. I mean honestly that is the only 100% fair way. If we all use the same markers, we all will have the same weight, balance, size, trigger behavior (including any "unfair" mechanical advantage) and ergonomics. Of course then you might have to consider the tanks used. High flow tanks vs Presets? CO2 only? Different types of oil? different viscosity levels might influence the speed at which the parts reset.


Overkill? I dunno you tell me. Where do you draw the line? At what point am I splitting hairs and at what point is there actually some egregious unfair advantage that allows one person to win and the other loose. Are you simply trying to limit ROF or is there something else?

:)

Mmm, I pretty much addressed that all stuff already......this is the last time I promise.

Yes, perhaps differrent classes........like they do in pump play to accomodate various mechanisms and set ups. Been doing it pretty much since the advent of CA,bulk loaders and auto triggers..not a new concept. Maybe it's time Paintball got with the program that is used by pretty much every other sport in existance.....or maybe not....IDK, not my call. :D

Yes,a trigger system that actively and greatly changes the force of it's pull during the process of a shot.....done so by using and active part of the markers system, (not variable spring rate or other methods that remain a constant and have more or less linearity on both halves of the pull) done so with the sole intent of increassing ROF over what can be achieve with out that assistance or system functioning......should not be legal. Not a simple lightening of the pull weight that can pretty much by done on any,leverage based trigger. (which all are) Not a simple shorting of the pull length that can pretty much be done on every other trigger as well.

I mean......I've explained I don't know how many times in various ways to make it clear........I don't know how else to say it. But I'm not going to try anymore.

This is also the last time I'm going to say that it's YOUR OPINION (;)) on whether or not an RT trigger unfairly adds to ROF.......opinion.......opinion......one more time.For some maybe it doesn't for those that know how to use it......it sure in the heck does,I promise you. My single finger (arm,wrist,how ever you want to do it) doesn't move any faster on an RT than it does on a classic or any other marker,even those with shorter lighter pulls but I can sure as heck smoke them all on an RT valved mag....no question.Only 2 markers out there that will do that.And no.....there really is no difference between a Mag,IMO and an RT Tippmann.Both are equally adjustable (simpler on the Tippy, agreed) in RT effect and both capable of producing that effect just as easy. The Mag is probably worse,not matter what you do you 'aint' gettting a Tippy upto 32bps. :)

Zman,your whole sight is based on that premises in all the varying degrees.I noticed you don't have vid of you doing 16+bps on a Classic valved Mag.(which we all know a Classic valve is capable of and beyond that if you factor some lack of recharge) Or are you going to say that there is no advantage to the RT trigger?(besides a recharge rate that no one can reach anyway)

As for Rogue......

I'm sure he's just goofing around now.
I know he's aware of the difference between a 'pull' and a return or release.
I know he understands the difference between the static and linear weight of a trigger pull and one that is acted on mechanically by an outside force.
I know he's not seriously going to say that the reativity and sweetspot potential of an RT is the same between 800psi input and 1000psi input.
I know he's not serious that a Classic valve will sweepspot just like an RT when fed 800psi.(in stock form)

I figure he's just having fun now.....me too...... :) < see?

Anyway.....

I really don't care....it's not my Tourny.....I don't write the rules for any governing bodies.....I don't care if anyone wants to use an RT in a mech Tourny,if considered legal by them,I would use one of mine.....

I figured it would create controversy to state my agreeement with this Tourny promoter and I wasn't let down. ;) No biggie.....I still feel the same way and if asked will say the same thing.

Anyone who feels different, I'm fine with that too. Cool?

Jay.

[slade]

Z-man, i think what RRfireblade was arguing was that the markers that utilize pneumatics to create a quicker pull are an unfair advantage over other markers. essentially, if the sear is moved only by mechanical action, then the marker is legal, if pneumatic pressure is applied to the trigger or sear to make the pull lighter, shorter, or have bounce, than it is illegal. i dont necessarily agree with him on this, i think that it should be at the discresion of whoever is holding the tournament, and they should have to test each marker. there of course has to be a line drawn somewhere, i think enough bounce to sweetspot and exceedingly light trigger pulls (like the hair, but not the ult or non-bouncing rt) should be illegal in mech tournaments.

[Phil]

Just tell the field owner that the rod that kicks the trigger back creating the reactivity is removable and offer to remove it for the tourney. It just screws out of its little holder. Any reasonable person should agree to this.

[slade]

Just tell the field owner that the rod that kicks the trigger back creating the reactivity is removable and offer to remove it for the tourney. It just screws out of its little holder. Any reasonable person should agree to this.
i think youre thinking of an e-mag. with a mech mag, you need the trigger rod, since it is what the trigger pushes against to rotate the sear. it can be removed on an e-mag, since the electronics rotates the sear instead of the trigger rod.