Wow! NXL set BPS limit

[Ohms Law]

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/tournament/psp/2004/nemacolin/index.shtml

[nt2004]

wow 15 bps cap. They pretty much leagalized any way of firing (ramping, etc.) as long as the first 3 shots are true semi auto and as long as it stops firing when the trigger is fully realeased

[Muzikman]

Very interesting.

Not only did they set a 15bps limit, they are saying that after 3 shots, the mode of fire can be anything you want as long as it stops when you let off the trigger.

[Chipper]

That is going to be the best way to stop cheating in my book. Good for them. :headbang:

[Sac]

so you can have a turbo mode or something that goes full auto at 15 bps as long as it does 3 shots first and then stops when you release? crazy...

[fire1811]

very cool maybe now we wont have so many people talking about how fast they can shoot :)

[Sac]

fat chance of that, this is only NXL, everyone else will still have 23bps bouncing ramping monsters, thats why i can't wait for hAir to come out so i can trade my shocker for a legal gun.

i wonder if any NXL guys would switch to a hAir since it can fire 16 bps in mech? technically this would get around the NXL's rules.

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by Warpig.com
A player caught at over 15 but under 16 or less balls per second will be issued a minor penalty

How do you shoot a fraction of a ball? :confused:

[rkjunior303]

fat chance of that, this is only NXL, everyone else will still have 23bps bouncing ramping monsters, thats why i can't wait for hAir to come out so i can trade my shocker for a legal gun.

i wonder if any NXL guys would switch to a hAir since it can fire 16 bps in mech? technically this would get around the NXL's rules.


I would like to see how fast some of these pros can actually shoot without any bounce, ramping, etc.

[Torbo]

I like what theyre doing. I think it may be hard to enforce tho. The full auto thing is kinda wierd tho....it would seem strange to not me moving your fingers when youre shooting fast. I guess its not that different anyway, since i know of plenty of individual guns that will shoot full auto when you double tap on them.

[team unwanted]

I hate cheaters....well maybe companies will start making reliable and gas efficient guns instead of guns that shoot 30bps and suck.

[Halliday]

How do you shoot a fraction of a ball? :confused:
I think that is called a chop. I have the Lvl 10 in my markers so I may be wrong.

I like the rule, but I think F-A with say a 16bps cap would be good.

[BlackWeenie]

How do you shoot a fraction of a ball? :confused:

well the way they determine fractions of a ball (i think) they say: hes shooting 23 bps over 2 seconds. so if you do the math thats 11.5 bps.


I like what theyre doing. I think it may be hard to enforce tho. The full auto thing is kinda wierd tho....it would seem strange to not me moving your fingers when youre shooting fast. I guess its not that different anyway, since i know of plenty of individual guns that will shoot full auto when you double tap on them.

well when i was at a clinic this weekend, Mike Carey (Chicago Aftershock) was talking about the enforcement at the pro level. apparently they have a "sound magnifier" type thing where someone points a microphone at your marker and they can determine how fast you are shooting and how consistent it is and if its suspicious they pull you right then and there.

[trains are bad]

Interesting. But not the greatest. Because you can still have semi, you just can't let the refs catch you shooting too fast. :confused: Or markers could have bps caps, optionally. Also, the whole semi 3 shots thing is bogus, but it's probably a compromise worked out with insurance companies.

I think any firing mode should be legal, but the bps cap set low. 15 is the max I would set it at. I would also limit paint (carefully) but who am I?

[thecavemankevin]

How do you shoot a fraction of a ball? :confused:

if the 16th ball is fired durring the end of the second....therefore the firing sequence started during the first second, and ended durring the second....if that makes any sense.




i wonder if any NXL guys would switch to a hAir since it can fire 16 bps in mech? technically this would get around the NXL's rules.

not technically....it does qualify for the first 3 balls to be true semi, but the hair does not qualify at being limited to only 15bps (since the hair can fire faster than 15). this is very interesting. they should amend it to say that any mech marker has a limitless bps

[FallNAngel]

if the 16th ball is fired durring the end of the second....therefore the firing sequence started during the first second, and ended durring the second....if that makes any sense.


Yes, but wouldn't that just mean 16bps?

[_tMAN]

That's awsome someone finally did this, hopefully it turns out well and works

[SlartyBartFast]

well when i was at a clinic this weekend, Mike Carey (Chicago Aftershock) was talking about the enforcement at the pro level. apparently they have a "sound magnifier" type thing where someone points a microphone at your marker and they can determine how fast you are shooting and how consistent it is and if its suspicious they pull you right then and there.

Aren't they using hand held chronos? It would be easy to reprogram them to detect BPS.

Sounds like they've made a good, realistic, and enforceable rule. :cool:

[RogueFactoryKid]

Even though i wont end up playing any NXL this year my emag will be set for the bps cap, well almost. Version 1.35 16 BPS Woohoo :clap:

[AGD]

Well we are on the way to full auto (against ASTM regulations) one rule at a time. This is the way its always been in paintball, todays cheaters become tommorows pros. This was 12 bps when discussed at IAO, now its 15, well really 15.9. By next year it will be 20 and the year after that it will be full auto at your local tourney.

Hope no one gets hurt, it would be a really juicy lawsuit....

AGD

[FreakBaller12]

I don't know if I'm just stating the obvious but, I think they are doing the first 3 shots semi only for safety rwasons. Just incase you drop your gun it wont go full auto in somebody's face. If you drop a gun, the trigger more than likely won't get tapped 3 times by something to star the ramping, FA whatever.


But we'll see how well the refs inforce this..

[SlartyBartFast]

Hope no one gets hurt, it would be a really juicy lawsuit....

Read my other posts all over AO. I've been saying that for quite some time. :(

[SMG]

I don't know how people think it will improve the sport and help draw sponsors. More balls in the air means less movement, less wathcable action, and games that are all going to look relatively the same. Its kind of like making a basketball hoop 6 feet around - takes some of the sport out of it.

Everytime I go to a field people are already getting overshot like crazy. Unfortunately, its going to take someone getting seriously injured to make people see the light. Not to mention the various NXL boards will appear at the local fields in the hands of every 11 year old who still have mom tie their shoes. The whole 15 bps will just be programmed around right from the start and people will be shooting full auto at 25-30. I played with an SMG-60 in the late 80's and I can't tell you how many people were injured from getting overshot while we played with full-autos. Time for people to get back into mechanical and pump play. Somehow I remember that time before electros when my gun always worked and I did not have to lug a trunk-load of crap around to play. Sorr for the rant.

[tony3]

Best changes I've seen in a long time.

[Tunaman]

Well it is my thinking that whoever is running the NXL better have some mighty deep pockets. Someone IS going to get hurt. Shame on the NXL. What a stupid decision to allow anything but semi auto. :nono:

[AGDlover]

i'm leaveing my e-mag set i 20 i don't care

[SMG]

Well it is my thinking that whoever is running the NXL better have some mighty deep pockets. Someone IS going to get hurt. Shame on the NXL. What a stupid decision to allow anything but semi auto. :nono:

The problem is that when corporations and limited liability companies are setup they are often under-funded and under-insured. I am an attorney and I can tell you that I would bet if someone was really hurt they may be without a viable deep pocket to sue. Teams with enough money would be smart to take out their own insurance to cover player injuries. I am always surprised by the waivers at paintball fields because if their were a lawsuit most of them would not have any viable assets to begin with and in Illinois you cannot indemnify yourself against your own negligence so much of the waivers may be ineffective. Players who shoot too hot or have cheater software may also be liable personally to the people that injure.

[Marchborne]

The problem is that when corporations and limited liability companies are setup they are often under-funded and under-insured. I am an attorney and I can tell you that I would bet if someone was really hurt they may be without a viable deep pocket to sue. Teams with enough money would be smart to take out their own insurance to cover player injuries. I am always surprised by the waivers at paintball fields because if their were a lawsuit most of them would not have any viable assets to begin with and in Illinois you cannot indemnify yourself against your own negligence so much of the waivers may be ineffective. Players who shoot too hot or have cheater software may also be liable personally to the people that injure.


Too true. The waiver/negligence/personal liability works the same way here in Virginia (yes, I'm another AO-law). A full-auto injury case would be very expensive: everybody under the sun would get sued, the insurance companies would probably try to back out of their duty to defend their insureds (since they might be violating their policy by allowing effective full-auto), discovery would be extensive (including PSP/NXL documents, numerous depositions, testing of the markers at issue), lots of expert testimony (ASTM standards, etc). The resulting trial would likely be an anti-paintball showcase, just to make things more fun.

I wouldn't worry about underfunding too much. I recall that in one of the recent PB magazines, Jerry Braun was quoted as saying that it takes $200,000 a year to run an NXL team. :wow:

[BlackVCG]

i'm leaveing my e-mag set i 20 i don't care

Good for you. I'm pretty sure you don't play in the NXL, either.



Well we are on the way to full auto (against ASTM regulations) one rule at a time. This is the way its always been in paintball, todays cheaters become tommorows pros. This was 12 bps when discussed at IAO, now its 15, well really 15.9. By next year it will be 20 and the year after that it will be full auto at your local tourney.

Hope no one gets hurt, it would be a really juicy lawsuit....

AGD

ASTM regulations limit the industry manufacturers. Not the events. This is, as far as I know, the first event organization to limit the BPS cap. It's kinda like telling carburetor manufacturers that they have to build low CFM models for race applications. It doesn't make sense. Instead they regulate, in the case of NASCAR, the CFM with a restricter plate.

And speaking of NASCAR, last time I checked those guys aren't the saints of the automotive race world. It's not like the cheaters of the world flocked to paintball. It's what you get in competitive sports.

I really don't see how this is going to let guns just go crazy and cause a problem. The MROF is the key. The first three shots have to be semi-auto, so that keeps people from using true FA. It just means the software is going to ramp up to 15bps once you hit about 5-6bps. Doesn't seem like much of a change from what guns can do right now. It doesn't seem all that hard to get an E-Mag with 3.2 to hum at 15bps.

[paint magnet]

I hate cheaters....well maybe companies will start making reliable and gas efficient guns instead of guns that shoot 30bps and suck.

They do, they're called Palmer's.

Tunaman - What do you think is going to hurt worse? 15 bps that actually stops when you release the trigger, or 23 bps that shoots another 4 balls because the trigger bounces when you release it? And what difference would full auto make anyway? Most, if not all "pro" players can shoot well over 15 bps in semi, so it's more of a handicap.

And what of the issue of mech markers? While I'm sure it takes a fair amount of skill to get a true semiautomatic mechanical gun firing over 15 bps, it can be done.

But in any case, it's about time someone did something about this problem. Any idea how this will affect the new guns being sold? ('high end' guns like Intimidators - would they come with the board capped at 15? Uncapped with a tourney lock? What about cheap sear trippers? Are electro Spyders going to be capped at 15 instead of 13?)

[Deltree]

It's a good topic and all but i bet the majority of us dont play in the NXL so it wont effect us too much. viva la 23 bps! :headbang:

[FallNAngel]

well the way they determine fractions of a ball (i think) they say: hes shooting 23 bps over 2 seconds. so if you do the math thats 11.5 bps.

I realize that, but what you're doing is just taking an average at that point. If you actually break it down, it comes out to 11 one second and 12 the next.



The first three shots have to be semi-auto, so that keeps people from using true FA.

No, actually it doesn't. It just means they hold the trigger back on the 4th pull and get full auto.

[BlackVCG]

Notice that I said "true" FA. And in order for a gun to do what you describe, they're going to have to program the board to do that.

Can you honestly tell me, in an NXL tournament, you would sit there and pull the trigger three times and then hold back on it on the 4th pull so you can shoot FA for a couple seconds when you have a reason to shoot that much paint?

Maybe I haven't played enough tournaments but it seems to me there's too much going on for me to have the patience to sit there and pop off three single shots so I can hold back on the trigger and throw paint. I'd rather walk the trigger and control my ROF than play some game with the trigger to get it to go FA.



No, actually it doesn't. It just means they hold the trigger back on the 4th pull and get full auto.

[magmonkey]

"It's a good topic and all but i bet the majority of us dont play in the NXL so it wont effect us too much. viva la 23 bps! "

it wont effect you yet, when somone gets hurt, and successfully sues "brand X" paintball gun manufacturer because they created a marker that goes against astm standards. this little paintball world is going to get turned upside down.

the astm standard was agreed uppon by the manufacturers, and it works to protect them from lawsuits (as long as the marker they are building is within the standard)

[FallNAngel]

Notice that I said "true" FA. And in order for a gun to do what you describe, they're going to have to program the board to do that.[/b]

You're right... and they won't have to program the board to ramp when they pull 5-6 bps either :rolleyes:


Can you honestly tell me, in an NXL tournament, you would sit there and pull the trigger three times and then hold back on it on the 4th pull so you can shoot FA for a couple seconds when you have a reason to shoot that much paint?

Yeah, actually I would. It's much easier to pull 3 times and hold it back on the 4th, and not have to worry about pulling the trigger than to sit that and try to shoot fast enough to get it to ramp. Do I think everyone will use that? No, but for some of the back guys off the break that just keep shooting, yeah, I do think it'll be used.


Maybe I haven't played enough tournaments but it seems to me there's too much going on for me to have the patience to sit there and pop off three single shots so I can hold back on the trigger and throw paint. I'd rather walk the trigger and control my ROF than play some game with the trigger to get it to go FA.

Play some game with the trigger? You'll have to "play some game" with the trigger to get it to ramp, which is shoot 3 balls first... exactly the same thing I'd have to do. I also hope you understand that 3 shots semi-auto just means pull the trigger normally 3 times with less than a second between each shot... after the third pull you have a second to just hold the trigger back. Not exactly a complicated thing to do.

[Jack & Coke]

IMO, they should have added a minimum trigger pull weight requirement.

Since after 3 shots, FA is allowed, you really don't need a feather light hair trigger set up anymore (for easy trigger walking).

If they made it so the gun had a minimum pull weight of 1-3 lbs., you would eliminate most accidental discharges caused by bumping the gun (for the first 3 shots).

If i were King, I would run it like this:

- FA allowed (after first 3 shots)
- MAX ROF = 13 BPS
- 1-3 lbs. min. trigger pull weight
- Single trigger frames only (safer handling, 3 fingers gripping the gun while running and driving, is better than 2)

Good thing I'm not the KING! :clap:

[-=Squid=-]

This is lame.

I know it doesnt affect us non NXLers, but im afraid this crap is going to creep over here as well.

[angelpena]

I mostly play pump and I rarely shoot 15 balls a game! I don't think this will affect me too much.

[hitech]

Maybe I haven't played enough tournaments but it seems to me there's too much going on for me to have the patience to sit there and pop off three single shots so I can hold back on the trigger and throw paint.

I would probably pull the first three BEFORE even coming out of the bunker. By the time I actually got out I would already be firing full auto. This assumes that I am providing cover type fire and not trying to wait on someone to stick their head out. ;)

I don't pretend to understand the law, but if ASTM standards are going to be used to determine what is safe, this is going to get someone on the losing end of a lawsuit. Someone is GOING to get bunkered at 15bps full auto. We already know what 12 rounds to the back of someone head at close range will do. :wow:

[trains are bad]

If I was god, It'd be this:

Any firing mode, 13bps max (nxl seems to think they have enforcement covered)
>1lb trigger weight (simple to enforce)
limited paint (simple to enforce)
No overshooting (simple to enforce)

[TDonovan]

Just give everyone a 12v revvy and tell them to go nuts. You might be able to get some decent bursts off, but you might be hard pressed to hold down a long string.

However that could hurt other companies that have fast loaders.

Just my little idea :)

[wobbles82]

This makes getting to their bunkers THAT much easier. Long live the 2 second game.

[Brophog]

What about the new wave of "fast mechanicals"?

For electros, which are the only markers capable for really going that fast in tournament play, a BPS cap is easily implemented. What do you do when the GFORCE and hAIR trigger hit the market though?

[BlackVCG]

My point from the beginning was that the 3-shot rule eliminates true FA of just pulling and holding the trigger. I agree... back players would probably like to be able to pull off three shots and hold back and throw 15bps. The thing is, right now people with Timmies and DM4's are throwing easily 20-23bps off the break. Ever shoot a Timmy with debounce "ramp" setting of 2?

To get a gun to ramp, you just shoot it fast by walking or fanning the trigger and the gun goes fast while your fingers aren't going nearly as fast. Not a complicated process.

I don't know, I just don't see many guys wrapping a bunker and with an open shot on a guy popping off three shots and then holding the trigger to spray him down. I think most paintballers, NXL players especially, are use to working a trigger to get the gun to do what they want. I don't think many people are going to change how they shoot a gun to get a modified version of FA.

Either way, have you guys listened to a gun shoot at 15bps lately? It's pretty slow in comparison to what you'll hear on a field with guns that are ramping up into the 20's.


You're right... and they won't have to program the board to ramp when they pull 5-6 bps either :rolleyes:



Yeah, actually I would. It's much easier to pull 3 times and hold it back on the 4th, and not have to worry about pulling the trigger than to sit that and try to shoot fast enough to get it to ramp. Do I think everyone will use that? No, but for some of the back guys off the break that just keep shooting, yeah, I do think it'll be used.



Play some game with the trigger? You'll have to "play some game" with the trigger to get it to ramp, which is shoot 3 balls first... exactly the same thing I'd have to do. I also hope you understand that 3 shots semi-auto just means pull the trigger normally 3 times with less than a second between each shot... after the third pull you have a second to just hold the trigger back. Not exactly a complicated thing to do.

[magmonkey]

had a thought,

National, Smartparts,and dye are the major gun sponsors of psp events,and would have a major sway in the "rule" creation.

now you have a couple small companys finding a way around the sp lawsuit by making incredibly fast mach guns,

I wonder if this could be another attempt to drive out marker manufacturing competition

they all make a "smartparts liscenced" high end electro, and anybody else who doesn't is pretty much screwed out of the electro market, so wouldn't it be a logical and equaly dirty step to esentialy ban the new high rof mech guns even before they come out by limiting the bps when there is no real viable way to cap a mech marker?

[cledford]

[QUOTE=Jack & Coke]IMO, they should have added a minimum trigger pull weight requirement.



If i were King, I would run it like this:

- FA allowed (after first 3 shots)
- MAX ROF = 13 BPS
- 1-3 lbs. min. trigger pull weight
- Single trigger frames only (safer handling, 3 fingers gripping the gun while running and driving, is better than 2)
QUOTE]


Word!

[bballe336]

i didnt think nxl could suck even more but they do. and i think that they are reffering to no full auto over 15 bps but i could be wrong anyways this is <B>*POOF*</B>, the nppl doesnt even have a bps cap rule and they have rules about almost everything that is phically possible at a paintball tourney.

<B>*Warning: No Cussing*</B> -Miscue

[MasonFootball89]

How do you shoot a fraction of a ball? :confused:


You can shoot 15 1/2 BPS if when the second is over the ball is like half way through the barrel I think

[nippinout]

This solves nothing.

People will have still have their guns go well past the 15bps limit.

With all the firing around, how are the refs supposed to make sure you fired the 3 required semi-auto shots before cheater mode kicks in. Time machines? Instant replays?

[ryanshep]

i assume they would be checking it the same way they do bounce. :rolleyes:


This solves nothing.

People will have still have their guns go well past the 15bps limit.

With all the firing around, how are the refs supposed to make sure you fired the 3 required semi-auto shots before cheater mode kicks in. Time machines? Instant replays?

[Torbo]

What about the new wave of "fast mechanicals"?

For electros, which are the only markers capable for really going that fast in tournament play, a BPS cap is easily implemented. What do you do when the GFORCE and hAIR trigger hit the market though?


great, except no one in the NXL will be using them. All those teams are heavily sponsored by big companies (NPS, SP, DYE). To change guns/sponsorship theyd have to get a better sponsorship deal. Which they would not get from AGD. There is no other gun marufacturer (other than maybe wdp) that can support an NXL team. AGD does not sponsor even one tournament team, so theyre not gonna sponsor a NXL team. And those teams arnt gonna use AGD products without huge sponsorship from them.

[Off topic rant] The same goes for all the big name pro/D1/D2 teams. Even when the hair trigger comes out, No big teams are going to use it. Therefore it wont get the publicity that would help it suceed. I think mostly current mag owners will buy it anyway. This wont be the 'salvation' for agd. [/end off topic rant]

[billmi]

not technically....it does qualify for the first 3 balls to be true semi, but the hair does not qualify at being limited to only 15bps (since the hair can fire faster than 15). this is very interesting. they should amend it to say that any mech marker has a limitless bps

It doesn't matter if the marker is capable of shooting faster. They are monitoring on field rates of fire with hyperdirectional microphones. If you shoot over 15 bps, you're penalized, what mode your gun is in doesn't matter.

This stems from the fact that no league has yet to come up with a way to combat hidden cheater modes. The NXL has simply changed their rules to where there is no advantage gained by hiding a mode, and capped both velocity and ROF, and set up ways to measure velocity and ROF while the game is in play. Off-field gun testing is irellevent, only on-field performance is an issue.

An NXL player could use a HAIR trigger. The rule does not speficy ROF limits that a gun must meet during off-field testing, it's all about what the player does on field. If they shoot faster than 15 bps on the field, during a game and get caught by the ref that is spot checking people for ROF, they will be penalized.

[Muzikman]

It doesn't matter if the marker is capable of shooting faster. They are monitoring on field rates of fire with hyperdirectional microphones. If you shoot over 15 bps, you're penalized, what mode your gun is in doesn't matter.

This stems from the fact that no league has yet to come up with a way to combat hidden cheater modes. The NXL has simply changed their rules to where there is no advantage gained by hiding a mode, and capped both velocity and ROF, and set up ways to measure velocity and ROF while the game is in play. Off-field gun testing is irellevent, only on-field performance is an issue.

An NXL player could use a HAIR trigger. The rule does not speficy ROF limits that a gun must meet during off-field testing, it's all about what the player does on field. If they shoot faster than 15 bps on the field, during a game and get caught by the ref that is spot checking people for ROF, they will be penalized.


Problem is slowing down a mechanical gun but still keeping up with electros. With an electronic gun, you can say, "do not allow this gun to shoot faster than 15bps, but let it shoot exactly 15bps" in the code and if written well, it will do just that. I can not tell my finger the same:)

So, what they are doing (and it's not like any one would use one any way), is eliminating the ability to use a mechanical marker in a game without the fear of being penalized.

[paint magnet]

So what exactly is defined as 15 bps? 15 shots, each 1/15th of a second apart? Or no more than 15 shots in one second, regardless of the rate at which they are fired? For example, say I shoot 15 shots, at a rate of 30 shots per second (this is hypothetical, remember), and quit shooting after half a second, then resume firing a few seconds later. I have only shot 15 balls in a one second time span, but I shot them at a rate higher than 15 bps. What happens then?

And why would anyone think this is crap, or that it could have a negative effect on the market? How many new players do you think are going to come to the sport when some mom send her 10 year old to play paintball for the first time and he comes back from a game with 23 welts? I'm not saying that everyone who has a fast gun overshoots people, but the fact remains that there are individuals out there who do shoot people that many times. Whether they are ***holes or are just ignorant, or can't control their guns, I don't know, but it happens.

And yes, while I will admit it is very fun to shoot extremely fast for no good reason, it has its place. Showing off over the chrono, raining paint on someone's bunker, stuff like that - but not hitting someone 14 times. Perhaps there wouldn't be a problem with a gun's capability at achieving a rate of fire if the user (again, talking about the majority, I realize that there are sensible players out there as well) was smarter or more considerate, but that's not the case.

Besides, why do you need to shoot more than 15 bps? (Why even 15 bps for that matter? 10 bps leaves a gap of ~ 10 inches between balls, I think, it's not like anyone is going to squeeze through that) You can only hide your lack of skill behind your rate of fire for so long.

My .02

[hitech]

(Why even 15 bps for that matter? 10 bps leaves a gap of ~ 10 inches between balls, I think, it's not like anyone is going to squeeze through that)...

Nope. At 200fps and 10bps there are 20 feet between paintballs (fps/bps). At 300fps it's 30 feet.

[Brophog]

It is a 30 feet gap, but it closes in a tenth of a second.

Making the limit 15 bps will not effect how the game is played. It may open the game up very slightly, but only at the start or other long distances.

[Digits]

hmm I wonder how many people will actually use f/a, or just get the board to ramp hardcore after a few bps.. The whole hold down the triger thing after 3 shots would suck of the break compared to walking it at a slow pase and getting the same results..

Anwayes though.. It's the NXL so who cares.. I can't see the NPPL or PSP changing over to this, especially how strict the NPPL is..

But honestly this sucks, it takes all the fun out of cheating.. It's not about the extra bps, its the thrill of getting away with it.. Now thats gone :(

[j.t.]

In my opinion this rule makes quite a bit of sense. All of the current cheater boards out there dont bounce like you might suspect. They do so in such a controlled manner that its nearly impossible to tell a bouncing gun from one that isnt. The gun will always shoot the first few shots at the highest debounce possible to avoid runaways, and then the debounce goes way down so it feels like your actually pulling the trigger that fast (which you obviously arent). Keep in mind, the gun also stops shooting as soon as you stop, unlike some of you believed. This basically just allows you to hit those super high ROFs without much effort... it does not mean that someone is using a gun that is totally out of control (shooting when the trigger is let go etc)

By setting a 15 bps limit, you dont allow the gun the same opportunity to hit those high, unhuman like bps. Any pro player out there can shoot 15 bps, even without the cheater board. Heck, most people i know can still hit 15 bps with their boards set to their highest debounce settings. As long as the gun is shooting CONTROLLABLY (first 3 shots are true semi, and the gun stops shooting when you do) then this new rule is fine in my books. If it becomes a trend then maybe you wont have to worry about getting shot up by some kid who shoots 24 bps with his dm4. There is a huge difference between 15 and 20+ as BlackVCG said. That, and most of the people I see getting overshot are the ones who expect you to stop shooting when they are standing in your way, although there are always a few that get overshot because some idiot did it intentionally.

Not only that, but alot of people seem to have this conception that the higher bps slows down game play alot. I dunno about you but have you ever watched any of the old pro videos where everyone shot mech cockers? Compare that to the game of today and well there is very little movement except for at the breakouts. I do realize though, that in the lower levels of game play, the higher ROF does slow down game play. There is nothing more annoying to me then to play a team at my local field who relies on shooting paint and snap shooting. There is just more to the game then that.

Those who also believe that pro players are just players who lack skill and hide behind their high rates of fire and win through cheating... well you better think again. I was lucky enough to get to play with Arsenal and the Jax Warriors (got owned :( ) and also have played with True Colors (a div 2 xball team that usually places pretty well) and you cannot understand the amount of skill these players have until you play against them. You have to realize that higher rates of fire actually open up the game to even more movement when used correctly. I mean, why the heck are you standing behind a bunker if you can shoot 18+ bps at your opponents? If your able to be posted on them and be shooting then why arent you shooting and running up the field? Start playing against better people and this becomes an essential skill. The pros are amazing at running and shooting... watch some of the newer xball vids closely and you can see how big of a role it plays in their game. Not only that, but players no longer have to wait until players start to get eliminated to move up the field.

...Just thought id state my opinion on this matter since its quite different from most peoples on this forum. :cool:

[billmi]

especially how strict the NPPL is..


The NPPL is not nearly as strict on gun enforcement as they would lead people to believe with their press releases. They are way more strict than they used to be, but there's still a major gap in testing and enforcement.

On the up side, Dave Zinkham has contributed immensely to their rule enforcement by developing and implementing equipment to test gun set ups for velocity ramping and adding shots off field. Those are major strides, and I think he deserves a lot of credit for what he has done.

On the down side - none of that testing off field ensures that the gun is operating in the same mode on the field as it is on the test stand. This means that the teams without access to custom software loaded into their guns, are the ones to get caught.

A board with cheater software that switches into an illegal mode when a secret code is tapped on the trigger (like hold down the trigger 2 seconds, release, fire one quick shot, then hold down two seconds again) and then reverts back to the legal mode when it hasn't been fired for some amount of time like 20 seconds or so (or even less, like 5 seconds.) By the time it's been carried off-field to test it will be back to legal operation.

Unless the testing staff has the ability to verify what software is loaded into the circuit board (not practical under current market and technology conditions) or stumbles upon the code on accident (incredibly unlikely) or someone on the team using the illegal board confesses (refs could interview people who leave teams under unhappy circumstances) the gun will be operating legally when it is tested off field. The player will then freely be able to use the super-hopped-up illegal mode off field. I know for a fact (having test fired a board that did this, and talked to a former member of a team that used those boards when they won a national event) that this has been done in the past, and believe it to be very likely that some teams still do it today.

Enforcing true semi-mode on field would mean somehow monitoring both the input (trigger pulls) and output (firing) of the guns for comparison. I don't see a practical, non-invasive way to do that with the current state of tournaments.

NXL's approach was to think outside the box - change the rules to something they can enforce - as they can monitor both max ROF and velocity that players are shooting during games. True, they don't have a way in place to make sure those first three shots are true semi-auto, but there's little advantage to be gained by breaking that rule.

What the NXL is doing is still far from perfect too - this was their first event attempting to check ROF during an actual tournament, and their system has had trouble. It's a workable concept though, so we'll see how long it takes to get the measuring equipment up to snuff.

[Miscue]

Well it is my thinking that whoever is running the NXL better have some mighty deep pockets. Someone IS going to get hurt. Shame on the NXL. What a stupid decision to allow anything but semi auto. :nono:

Personally, I think this method of firing is safer. These bouncy markers go out of control - with random behavior. We were already doing almost full-auto, except you didn't have full control over it. With these rules, a bouncy trigger is undesireable.

15bps - it'll creep up to 18. Then it will creep up to 20. :D

[Miscue]

The NPPL is not nearly as strict on gun enforcement as they would lead people to believe with their press releases. They are way more strict than they used to be, but there's still a major gap in testing and enforcement.

A board with cheater software that switches into an illegal mode when a secret code is tapped on the trigger (like hold down the trigger 2 seconds, release, fire one quick shot, then hold down two seconds again) and then reverts back to the legal mode when it hasn't been fired for some amount of time like 20 seconds or so (or even less, like 5 seconds.) By the time it's been carried off-field to test it will be back to legal operation.



Clap on. Clap off. Clap on, clap off. The Clapper. :D

[billmi]

Clap on. Clap off. Clap on, clap off. The Clapper. :D

My wife is devious.

A few years back I'd toyed with a voice recognition circuit, with the plans of putting it in a friend's Shocker so that he could turn it on or off under voice command - like voice print ID. Since I'd be writing the software to controll it, I could theoretically have it ramp velocity on voice command by increasing dwell time - and since the refs didn't have the same voice they wouldn't be able to repeat it at the chrono - this was back when chronoing was done after the game with the big red chronos.

Dawn pointed out a more clever plan. Have it shoot hot, unless it heard the "Beeeep" sound from the chrono, then it would drop the dwell for the next 20 shots. The first shot off was considered a "clearing shot" and didn't count against you under the rules, so the first shot would be hot, then the ones that count would be legal.

She's a tricky girl.

[Miscue]

Problem is slowing down a mechanical gun but still keeping up with electros. With an electronic gun, you can say, "do not allow this gun to shoot faster than 15bps, but let it shoot exactly 15bps" in the code and if written well, it will do just that. I can not tell my finger the same:)

So, what they are doing (and it's not like any one would use one any way), is eliminating the ability to use a mechanical marker in a game without the fear of being penalized.

I think they should make this rule not apply to mechs. The purpose of this rule is to calm down electronic markers - mechs aren't the problem.

A 15bps cap means, you can use a nice mech and have very little disadvantage if any. I prefer them over electronic markers, but it's a disadvantage against 20+ bps electros.

[Miscue]

My wife is devious.

A few years back I'd toyed with a voice recognition circuit, with the plans of putting it in a friend's Shocker so that he could turn it on or off under voice command - like voice print ID. Since I'd be writing the software to controll it, I could theoretically have it ramp velocity on voice command by increasing dwell time - and since the refs didn't have the same voice they wouldn't be able to repeat it at the chrono - this was back when chronoing was done after the game with the big red chronos.

Dawn pointed out a more clever plan. Have it shoot hot, unless it heard the "Beeeep" sound from the chrono, then it would drop the dwell for the next 20 shots. The first shot off was considered a "clearing shot" and didn't count against you under the rules, so the first shot would be hot, then the ones that count would be legal.

She's a tricky girl.

That's a lot of work!

I was thinking about one of those wrist watch remote controls, and put a hidden IR receiver on the marker. Turn on cheating = push the power button! Higher bps = turn up the volume! It would be merely for demonstration purposes: "This is what you're up against - fix the rules/procedures!" I like the idea of a standardized BPS cap that they can enforce.

[billmi]

I think they should make this rule not apply to mechs. The purpose of this rule is to calm down electronic markers - mechs aren't the problem.

A 15bps cap means, you can use a nice mech and have very little disadvantage if any. I prefer them over electronic markers, but it's a disadvantage against 20+ bps electros.

The problem with applying the cap to electronics only, is then not only does the ref on the sideline weilding the parabolic mic and the radar gun have to check ROF and bps, but now he has to spot from that distance the type of gun, etc. It's easier and more even, to make the same rule apply to everyone.

Personally I'd love to see a league where there were things like full auto with one bps and rof cap, semi with another, and 12 gram powered getting the highest fps limit - so you start building specific guns to max out their capabilities for different positions on the field. Major pain in the butt for enforcement, and something that I don't think any league out there is right for now, but I think it would push things to where the team airsmiths were also critical players on the team. That or something like fps matching with weight ratios of the gun - so super-milled down 12 gram guns would have the most range, but the heavy hitters with more air and ammo could spray out more paint, but not as far.

[AGD]

We are waisting time discussing this rule, we should be thinking about the next way to cheat. If we are the first to use the new cheating methods we will win and after a few years it will be legal anyway.

SO lets see...

Microphone/speaker in the grip that puts out an inverted sound wave to cancel the nose of the gun firing. If the refs mikes cant hear anything you can shoot as fast as you want!

Well if they notice there is no noise, you could always produce false noise bursts to bridge the gap between shots.

If that sounds strange you could just noise cancel the shots ABOVE 15 bps.

Or how about an echo chamber built around the barrel that smooths out the shot noise into so low a frequency that it cant read it properly?

Oh here is another one! A microphone in the handle of each gun listens to your teamates guns firing and syncronizes the shots. ALL guns on our team shoot at the same moment and hence the judges cant identify individual players.

lower the velocity on the gun every other shot so the judges mike doesnt hear the extra shots.

Put out high frequency bursts of noise while your firing so the ref sees you shooting 100 bps on his equipment. THEN YOU GET TO ARGUE WITH THE REF THAT HIS EQUIPMENT IS FAULTY! Got to love that one, you get to cheat and ***** at the same time!

Tune your barrel to sound like a ball bouncing off a bunker. That way you can blame it on the other team! "Judge you were reading the bunker you idiot!"

In the last seconds of the game have your buddies in the stands jump up and start screaming with noisemakers that simulate guns shots. Let your teams guns rip at any rate to win the game.

Use the gun timing to short stroke the bolt every other time and NOT load a ball. Shoot the gun at 30 CPS but only fire 15 BPS. Go up to the crono and demonstrate this for the judge and tell him "my gun just sounds funny but this is how it shoots 15 BPS" Go on the field and let em rip, they will never figure it out.


Soon to be taking orders on my new book "Tom Kayes Guide to Tech Cheats" on Amazon.com

AGD

[1ofkind]

^^^^^^^^^^

Wow... AGD... wow





Anyway I like this rule, I was starting to lose faith in fair compention thinking all the players in the upper divisons used "cheater's boards". I'll tell my friend to hold off on the new chip for his alais timmy because it only goes up to 15 bps, it makes him sad tho :( .

[Digits]

Brilliant! I feel like cheating now.. but meh I doubt this will pass around anywhere else other then the NXL.. I mean ramping and all that crap has been legal in the NXL for a little while now but the NPPL won't even allow 3-5 extra shots out of 30.

[Miscue]

We are waisting time discussing this rule, we should be thinking about the next way to cheat. If we are the first to use the new cheating methods we will win and after a few years it will be legal anyway.

SO lets see...

Microphone/speaker in the grip that puts out an inverted sound wave to cancel the nose of the gun firing. If the refs mikes cant hear anything you can shoot as fast as you want!

Well if they notice there is no noise, you could always produce false noise bursts to bridge the gap between shots.

If that sounds strange you could just noise cancel the shots ABOVE 15 bps.

Or how about an echo chamber built around the barrel that smooths out the shot noise into so low a frequency that it cant read it properly?

Oh here is another one! A microphone in the handle of each gun listens to your teamates guns firing and syncronizes the shots. ALL guns on our team shoot at the same moment and hence the judges cant identify individual players.

lower the velocity on the gun every other shot so the judges mike doesnt hear the extra shots.

Put out high frequency bursts of noise while your firing so the ref sees you shooting 100 bps on his equipment. THEN YOU GET TO ARGUE WITH THE REF THAT HIS EQUIPMENT IS FAULTY! Got to love that one, you get to cheat and ***** at the same time!

Tune your barrel to sound like a ball bouncing off a bunker. That way you can blame it on the other team! "Judge you were reading the bunker you idiot!"

In the last seconds of the game have your buddies in the stands jump up and start screaming with noisemakers that simulate guns shots. Let your teams guns rip at any rate to win the game.

Use the gun timing to short stroke the bolt every other time and NOT load a ball. Shoot the gun at 30 CPS but only fire 15 BPS. Go up to the crono and demonstrate this for the judge and tell him "my gun just sounds funny but this is how it shoots 15 BPS" Go on the field and let em rip, they will never figure it out.


Soon to be taking orders on my new book "Tom Kayes Guide to Tech Cheats" on Amazon.com

AGD

Ha, I was thinking a lot of the same stuff. We'll have to see how they actually implement their solution. Then you can figure out better what the limitations are of the system, and exploit them.

What a microphone detects is not proof that a particular marker was fired. There is competing sound on the field and off the field. I don't care how supposedly good this microphone could be. I find it similar to the idea of a lie detector/stress test - you may have a read-out, but can you really conclude anything?

Another thing is: Creating additional sound when an opponent is being sound checked, incriminating him - maybe by shooting his bunker, which makes a lot of noise. "Why is everybody shooting that one guy's bunker? Whoa, he got pulled for shooting over 15bps!"

And I seriously doubt that they'll have one mic per person, they don't even have one ref per person. It becomes a matter of keeping track of where the microphone is.

Then, if he's on you - shut off your hopper. Dry fire at some crazy speed, like mentioned. He can't call you on shooting 20, when the thing also registered 40+ - which is a bogus bps.

Off the break, everyone is shooting fast, everyone relatively close together - you can't tell one marker from another.

Shoot your bunker in front of you! Two sounds, one shot! Lower your dwell to purposely shoot slow, so there is more time in between the shot and hitting the bunker.

I'm pretty sure that there are so many situations where this device would have faulty read outs, everyone would be aware of this, nobody would trust it, and argue that they are reading 15+ bps because the device is imperfect - and there is truth in it. I can almost guarantee if they use this type of device, there will be ongoing controversy when any decisions are made based on what the device detects.

[billmi]

Soon to be taking orders on my new book "Tom Kayes Guide to Tech Cheats" on Amazon.com

AGD

So where's this been the last umpteen years that you could have been putting radar signal generators in guns to give a false 300 fps reading on doppler radar?

[billmi]

Brilliant! I feel like cheating now.. but meh I doubt this will pass around anywhere else other then the NXL.

PSP is considering it, pending it being shown that the on-field monitoring equipment can be developed to a point where it is reliable.


I mean ramping and all that crap has been legal in the NXL for a little while now

NXL has never allowed ramping until this last event. Teams cheated and got away with it because the NXL did not have good off field testing, and had no method for checking firing modes on field, so players were able to cheat by using hidden methods to activate ramping modes on field, even if there gun were to be checked off-field.


but the NPPL won't even allow 3-5 extra shots out of 30.

NPPL has a very good system for checking gun operation off field. However, it doesn't scan gun software for hidden modes. It can only test the mode the gun is in when it is set on the test stand. It's a huge leap forward in rule enforcement, because it allows a standardized test for things like physical trigger bounce, or overly reactive triggers, or velocity ramping caused by the way regulators interact (like on the Automag RT.) That's all something that had not been standardized in the past and ended up largely to a referee's opinion, that would vary from referee to referee, and from event to event. The testing they are doing should be in place in most serious leagues.

The NPPL has no system in place to catch players who switch into illegal modes on the field by a hidden means. So while ramping is not legal there either, they are much in the same position the NXL was - with no way to see if players have a gun that is ramping shots during a game.

[MikeRosenthal]

Unless the testing staff has the ability to verify what software is loaded into the circuit board (not practical under current market and technology conditions)

I've been wondering myself why this hasn't been instituted yet.

My Solution would be this. Every electronic board needs a port that allows its ROM image to be read out to the testing device. All makers of electronic boards must submit ROM images to the Ruling Body for testing. Once an image is "VERIFIED" a MD5 signature is generated from the image. At tournament day either your ROM image matches one of the signatures in the Ruling body's database or you sit your *** out.

THis would require practically no investment from board makers since the technology is already on the boards. THey just need to make it easier to get to the port.

Alternatively the board makers could move to Removeable BIOS chips ala Motherboards.

At Game Day you hand in your marker, they put in a pre-approved BIOS chip. And off you go.

Thoughts?

[hitech]

The cheater boards would just be external then. They provide trigger "inputs" to cause the marker to fire.