2005 Autococker(tm)

[spantol]

My apologies if this has been posted already; it didn't show up in a search.

http://www.paintballstar.com/pn/index.php?name=PagEd&page_id=225

The '05 Autococker(tm) Trilogy will come in three flavors:

Autococker Trilogy Pro, at $270
http://www.paintballstar.com/pn/modules/PagEd/pictures/Trilogy-Pro-Marker.jpg

Autococker Trilogy Competition, at $220
http://www.paintballstar.com/pn/modules/PagEd/pictures/Trilogy-Comp-Marker.jpg


Autococker Trilogy Sport, at $180
http://www.paintballstar.com/pn/modules/PagEd/pictures/Trilogy-Sport-Marker.jpg

[mangomag]

Not bad, not bad at all :tard:

[OysterBoy]

They look like Pirahna-Cockers..

[personman]

WOW!
I really like what they did with the front block, and no more brass, not to mention the milling is hands down the nicest stock cocker milling that I've ever seen..

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

and damn cheap too.

[BobTheCow]

Is it just me, or is this the cheapest that new model-year cockers have been in quite a while? <img src="http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif">

**edit** blah monkey-boy up there types quicker than I do. :p

[spantol]

Looks pretty cheap, too. The whole Trilogy line has Big Box Retail written all over it.

I'd imagine that there'll be a higher-end, more traditional-looking line introduced shortly after the release of this one.


Is it just me, or is this the cheapest that new model-year cockers have been in quite a while? <img src="http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif">

**edit** blah monkey-boy up there types quicker than I do. :p

[LittlePaintballBoy]

Not to shabby.

[Thermus]

Get rid of your old cockers ASAP!!!

[BlackWeenie]

the trilogy pro looks pretty cool, but the other two look cheap. the trigger on the 2 i dont like looks to be aweful and of low quality.

[FlawleZ]

WOW!

This is going to absolutely KILL the resale value of the later model cockers.

[FragTek]

I think they're the uglies cocker of ALL time... These definately don't get my vote.

[hobbesTZ]

Ugly as sin. 'cockers aren't what they used to be.

[Enemy]

they look good but cheap as all get out and so the brass eagles diminishing of wgps products begans soon we will see a crappy cheap eblade cocker for 400!!

[PissedGodzilla]

don't know if you guys read the article, but the front block is NOT REMOVABLE.... no add on eblade...


WGP has officially sold out for the $$

it's their perogative but.... :(

[Jackel411]

And nobody thought the buy out would change WGP all I have to say is... HA!!! " The cheapening of the cocker "

[Koosh]

I cannot WAIT until cockers drop in price more... I've been looking to pick up a project, and hell, I bet now I could get a 99 RF cocker for under $100 when these come out :)

[mobius]

I remember when K2 bought out Pro Flex mountain bikes. Pro Flex was a very high end company that only produced dual suspension mountain bikes in the $600-$2500 price range. I was working as a bike tech at the time, and I had first hand experience with the sudden and rapid downward spiral of changes that were made, all in the name of "progress." Now you can buy mass produced K2 bikes (they scrapped the Pro Flex name after about 2 years) at Wal Mart and Sports Authority for $200. Very few high end bike shops carry their products these days because they are seen as "low end Wal Mart bikes". This is despite the fact that their stuff in the $800 range is still decent, though there are plenty of other bike brands I would buy first.

K2 seems to be of the mentality that if they want to get into a new industry, they can buy an existing company, throw some new (non industry) marketing and development people at them, and make lots of changes that they think are for the better. Unfortunatley, this looks like what is happening with the new 2005 'Cockers.

How long until we can buy a "K2" Autococker at Wal Mart, and your local pro shop looks at you as if you walked in the door asking for the newest plastic Brass Eagle marker?

[FSU_Paintball]

The only good change is the price, and the way having no front block looks. Big thumbs down. Not upgradeable to an eblade without heavy modification? No double-trigger in the lower-end models? No adjustable LPR? No removeable 3-way? No reg in the low-end model? What are they smoking?

Anyone who says that these are "superior" to the older cockers in any way other than price and milling doesn't know what they're talking about.

[Carbon]

HAHAHAHAHAH....



so....a 2005 Mag is more upgradeable than a 2005 cocker eh?

[PBX Ronin 23]

Looks pretty cheap, too. The whole Trilogy line has Big Box Retail written all over it.

I'd imagine that there'll be a higher-end, more traditional-looking line introduced shortly after the release of this one.
Right you are Stevo! These puppioes are intended for the mass retail chains. In a lot of ways, the design follows the K.I.S.S. principle and make the gun ideal for the uninitiated. But kinda limits what you cannow do to it as far as upgrades are concerned.

[ProX9]

Lol my ap chem teacher uses the k.i.s.s. principle, keep it simple student. Some people said Wgp wouldnt pursue the aftermarket parts makers, but it looks like they dont have to now they have completely screwed them.

[SpecialBlend2786]

I like em alot. :clap:

[gc82000]

Wait a second here. They do not take Eblades. What are they thinking. Is tha tnot what brought WGP back into the tourney scene. Can someone get Bud Orr back his bearings on this sport.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

I think they're the uglies cocker of ALL time... These definately don't get my vote.

I have to agree. It looks like they tried to copy that other cocker with the integral ram and such. The front block assembly is just ugly as sin. I dont think I will ever be able to own one of these.

[wispaintstyle]

I'm done with WGP, I'm selling my cocker now. I doubt I'll want a semi for awhile.
Hey Mr. Kaye, don't freekin' sell out ok? You're the last great semi-auto. :nono:

[G-Rock]

don't know if you guys read the article, but the front block is NOT REMOVABLE.... no add on eblade...


WGP has officially sold out for the $$

it's their perogative but.... :(

Right the front block is not removeable, but the 3-way is!!

And since all you change out is the 3-way for the new electronic 3 way, then the NON-removable front block don't mean a thing.

Lets remember that the Eclipse and Nexus cockers both had NON-removable front blocks, yet both came with eblades!

chris geiger

[teufelhunden]

Sonny, back in May, promised me I'd never see a 'Cocker in Wal-Mart.

Looks like that panned out. Well, good thing I got rid of my EBlade a few weeks ago.

[MiniSpdRcr]

Yeah but it wont be as fast, I do not think that you can fit a ram with QEV's or TRV's into that tiny little space the provided. So you CAN put an E-blade on it, but it wont be used to its potential.



Right the front block is not removeable, but the 3-way is!!

And since all you change out is the 3-way for the new electronic 3 way, then the NON-removable front block don't mean a thing.

Lets remember that the Eclipse and Nexus cockers both had NON-removable front blocks, yet both came with eblades!

chris geiger

[ZEROorDIE]

HOW CAN THEY DO THIS!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooo!!!!!!!!

they just killed the cocker. its a cocker with 60% less upgradeable parts.


the higher end cockers better nothave been submitted to this B/S

hey guys look its the updated karni no fron block no grip feed stock pnues no ics but look its got cooool milling. well call it the Herbivore brand new for 2005! :mad:

[MiniSpdRcr]

How do you know the 3 way is removable?!? Read the article it is intergrated to the ASA. Which in otherwords, it is not removable. So no E-blades or Worr-blades or anything that will make it good.




Right the front block is not removeable, but the 3-way is!!

And since all you change out is the 3-way for the new electronic 3 way, then the NON-removable front block don't mean a thing.

Lets remember that the Eclipse and Nexus cockers both had NON-removable front blocks, yet both came with eblades!

chris geiger

[Banshee23]

Right the front block is not removeable, but the 3-way is!!

And since all you change out is the 3-way for the new electronic 3 way, then the NON-removable front block don't mean a thing.

Lets remember that the Eclipse and Nexus cockers both had NON-removable front blocks, yet both came with eblades!

chris geiger


If you actually spent the time to read the article you would see that the 3-way is integrated into the marker body, so no Eblades...

Also, how is the sport model going to work as it only has a gas thru grip & not a reg? I'm not terribly knowledgable in all thinks cocker related but don't they run at around 400 psi? If this is sold at retail it's going to be used with CO2 which runs alot higher than that, so this would be a HP cocker?

[Spaceman613]

It just mans that the retailer will have to get a lot back in return.... Or the retailer will have to sell an inline to make the gun perform reasonably well.

Looks like they are going after the PMI Piranha. Im a cocker guy, but these look chincy at best. Im glad WGP is getting plenty of good deals from the Asian manufacturers. Also, I hope you dont plan on ever re-annoing one of these, the integrated 4way will leak like crazy after re-anno.

But we all know the kids will buy these like crazy. Personally, I would rather buy a cocker type marker thats made in the US, and made so that you can not only repair it, but replace parts if needed.

[Python14]

wow....ugly

[ZAust]

whats up with the one-and-a-half trigger on the two lower models?

[Maus]

It won't be impossible to mount an electro frame. Sandridge was mounting their solenoids off the regulator for years.

[Wc Keep]

i dont know how i feel about this. on one end of the spectrum i feel that wgp has cheesed out. throwing in the towel to compete against the big boys of the industry. and on the other end is the business end in which they will once again rekindle their fued with agd and battle it out for the scenario games title of best gun.

but it seems that everything that made the autococker the autococker has been taken away. no reg on the low end model, no customization for your own feel, and what is up with that trigger that looks like it was cut in half.

the higher priced one looks like it deserves the name autococker. the knock in price obvious to the gun having the front block removed, but i still will pay for a good used older one that is more expensive than these.

[Python14]

Yea, seriously, someone really dropped the ball this season.

[Pstan]

Ugly......no doubt about it. While I have a 2002 WGP Cocker, I dont think I'll buy their products again. Chipley and Palmer are the way to go.

[BradAGD]

Interesting. With some work and parts, an Eblade can probably be put on. Wait a bit and some aftermarket shop will be doing it or even selling an adapter to put them on.

BUT

with the looks of it, probably no more Sniper SHO's until I can figure out how to build one around the new "front block-less" body. Great...one more thing for me to do.

[slade]

i saw this in an e-mail a day or two ago and just shuddered. i knew when wgp was bought out by the same company that owns BE that everything would go downhill. it seems like they tried to find every way possible to cut costs with still retaining function. they got arid of the front block and had an intergrated 3-way to reduce production time, and made extremely cheap milling. then the two lower end frames are plastic with a shortened trigger and no regulator on the lowest end one. i seriously expect to find this marker while walking through wallmart.

in a way i think this is good, though. ive been meaning to pick up a 03 cocker or an ANS GX-4, and this should cut the retail price a bit. ;)

[GT]

When did most of you guys just get into paintball? I dont think it was until recent times that the stock cocker was anything to shout about. My personal belief is that stock cockers were not even built correctly from the factory until 98-99. Do you really think it costs anywhere near 400 bucks to make a cocker? A gun that has stayed the same for so many years?

when was the last time you could buy a new cocker for 180 bucks? Hell, strip it for parts, sell them for about 50 bucks, buy a sidewinder 100, and an eblade 300, and shoot some fools. that comes to 530 bucks for an ebladed monster!

But alas the paintball comunity is to stupid and instantly assumes that cheaper price equates to a lower quality product. The simple fact is: If you want paintball to grow there has to be a number of entry level products


BTW: I would hate to know what they could sell an RTP for. how much have rtp's dropped in price over the last 2 years.

[GT]

with the looks of it, probably no more Sniper SHO's until I can figure out how to build one around the new "front block-less" body. Great...one more thing for me to do.


I know the SHO's are pricey, would it be more cost effective to just order a body from jackal or works?

[slade]

when was the last time you could buy a new cocker for 180 bucks? Hell, strip it for parts, sell them for about 50 bucks, buy a sidewinder 100, and an eblade 300, and shoot some fools. that comes to 530 bucks for an ebladed monster!
it has a built in 3-way, so i dont think that you can put an e-blade on it.


But alas the paintball comunity is to stupid and instantly assumes that cheaper price equates to a lower quality product. The simple fact is: If you want paintball to grow there has to be a number of entry level products
true, and im glad that wgp is making an entry level autococker. but what im afraid of is that all of wgp's autocockers, or at least the majority of them, will become lower end.

[slasherdan]

Well first WGP used the autococking system ... something Glenn basically created ...

Now they're "internalizing" all the components .... something Glenn has been doing since 1996 ....

Boy if they go after Glenn ... he's got them in the bag ....

Don't buy something you'll waste more money on just to work right ... If you really want this marker ... save a little more and get a PPS Blazer so it will work right the first time.

If you want to save some more .... get the RT with hAir ... Hell ... get a RT ULE ...

[AzrealDarkmoonZ]

My guess all that it will require is a different manifold for Eblades to attach. Afterall notice the rod on the other side of the marker coming off the frame, the 3way is integrated into the ASA, notice the bulge on the side. Probablly the front is threaded with something similiar to their CT 4way and the "guts" slide out, so you will just need a manifold threaded the same.

Az

[trains are bad]

true, and im glad that wgp is making an entry level autococker. but what im afraid of is that all of wgp's autocockers, or at least the majority of them, will become lower end.

they already have! where's the high end cocker in the pictures above? the top one is the only one that looks even middle of the road.

[Doc Nickel]

Pardon me for interrupting this anger-fest, but why does everyone simply automatically assume these are replacements for the Autococker line, and not additions to it?

When the WorrBlades came out, did they stop selling Black Magics?

The way I see it, these are a new line, designed and aimed entirely and only at competing with the cheap Wal-Mart/K-Mart markers. And in that case, upgradability is irrelevant, since the vast majority of them don't upgrade, typically not even barrels, let alone milling and anodizing.

But you and I will still be able to get WorrBlades, STOs, Black Magics and whatever else, from "real" paintball retailers, for however long K2/WGP feels they can make a buck off of them.

Doc.

[Destructo6]

I have a hard time believeing that the entire 2005 WGP line consists of sub-$300 markers. Perhaps, this is their bottom-rung line that is intended to compete, price point and everything, with Spyders.

I don't see why you couldn't Eblade it. The Eblade's solenoid housing doesn't have to screw into the 3-way hole: the threaded hole was simply convenient.

Give it a couple of months before making a final judgement. It would help, though, if WGP would release some sort of press statement, setting things straight.

[Adrenaline_Junkie]

Those are very ugly and on top of that not very upgradeable. Those are a disgrace to cockers imo.

[GT]

it has a built in 3-way, so i dont think that you can put an e-blade on it.


:confused:



I don't see why you couldn't Eblade it. The Eblade's solenoid housing doesn't have to screw into the 3-way hole: the threaded hole was simply convenient.

:rofl: My point exactly. If you were in a pinch you could duck tape it to the barrel....

anyways,
When the corvette went from SAE to metric did aftermarket companies stop making 'vette parts? Hell no, there was to much money to be made. I give it at most, 6 months after they release before there are "aftermarket" parts that make it "better."

[MaChu]

I think it looks good for the price, a defenite thumbs up in my book considering the autocockers before this were outrageous for the performance/price.

Umm and yeah I see no problem of throwing an Eblade on there with a little modification. :confused: Lets see the trigger frame looks the same, so there is the Eblade frame slap on, and the 3way solenoid can just be mounted anywhere, either by a aftermarket mounting plate(that will be produced I guarantee) or taking out the integrated 3way and threading the hole to accept the solenoid, as long as hoses reach the front reg and ram everything is fine. It also looks like the front reg can be unscrewed and the ram also. QEVs might be problem though, but you could turn the ram so that they face outwards, hey looks ugly but works ;)

The only problem I see with the gun is the integrated 3way, mostly because it will be difficult to mod it to accept a better one. But seeing how people don't go to a tricked all mechanical cockers anymore and straight to an eblade, I see this point as null anyways.

But I want to see if the internals have changed any. They might have cheaped out major there like sears, hammers, valves, etc. If they are cheap sears like walmarts BE guns where they wear down in 2 seconds, or the hammer is 10lbs like all the walmart guns Ive fixed at the local shop, or anything of that nature will be a big annoyance also, but again you get what you pay for. Also if all the internal parts are unique to where they won't accept earlier stuff that would be bad also, but I highly doubt they would do that considering they probably have a huge inventory of parts from the 2k4.

[penguinpunk555]

I like old cockers better.

[dynastyfan]

honestly i am very excited about this change besause ive always wanted a cocker but i didnt want to shell out the 350 for a new one this is good for broke people like me.

[slade]

okay maybe i was wrong, i thought that the new design with the intergrated 3-way wouldnt allow an e-blade without heavy modification. i dont know all that much about cockers (my main reason for wanting to get one)

i still like the old design better. its okay with me if this is just a low end line of cockers, but what im afraid of is that k2 will try to cheapen the whole line.

[Shingo]

I have a feeling that WGP is planning ahead. I doubt WGP will completely drop their current high end cockers because this.

Think about it this way, if a noob goes to walmart and buys his/her first new marker there is a chance that he/she will want to buy what everyone else is buying.... another autococker. Being a noob, $$$ flow usually is tight since mommy and daddy thinks this hobby is too expensive, so they'll go for a cheaper version. Down the line when the 'kid' get more serious in the sport, they'll want to buy a better marker. Since they started off with a lower end cocker, there is a GOOD chance that they will buy a higher end cocker in the future.

Basically, people stick to what they know. Like many of us who had classic mags and upgraded to our emags, noobs with this cheapo cocker will someday upgrade to another cocker.

~Shingo~

[tony3]

If they release a electro cocker for 400 with eyes installed, they are going to get lots of buisness.

They are just trying to compete with the low end spyders. I mean a stock cocker was 320 and for 80 more you could get an impulse that was a much more tournement geared gun then the stock cocker. They should include some of those things with antichop bolts like on the dragun flys. Step in the right direction IMO. WGP really hadn't been doing much in the high end market, now I see why.

[SpecialBlend2786]

Yeah, I agree with Doc....The Karni just came out maybe a year ago, and the E2 frame is now here, i doubt that this is all WGP will be producing.

And if you want a cheap cocker, ANS GenX-3's are only like $280 now....with all the purdy anno colors:)

[soccer4minimags]

Whoa, I guess I am one of the few that actually likes these.

I think its great they are doing this, and I've been through my fair share of cockers.

Before we all jump all over this gun has anyone actually seen pictures of the 3 way side. It may not be as terrible as everyone makes it sound.

Lastly, since when have mech cockers been bad. I have no problem keeping up on the field with anybody with a 2k3, I can't see how these will be any worse. Its all in the user.

Honestly I am looking forward to this single trigger hinge, and I plan on buying one of these regardless.

[tony3]

Another things a lot of people are missing is WGP doesn't WANT people messing with the gun. Imagine a 12 year old newbie messing with a cocker? Disaster. This way you can't mess with the timing really, so the gun always works.

[slasherdan]

Pardon me for interrupting this anger-fest, but why does everyone simply automatically assume these are replacements for the Autococker line, and not additions to it?

When the WorrBlades came out, did they stop selling Black Magics?

The way I see it, these are a new line, designed and aimed entirely and only at competing with the cheap Wal-Mart/K-Mart markers. And in that case, upgradability is irrelevant, since the vast majority of them don't upgrade, typically not even barrels, let alone milling and anodizing.

But you and I will still be able to get WorrBlades, STOs, Black Magics and whatever else, from "real" paintball retailers, for however long K2/WGP feels they can make a buck off of them.

Doc.

You make a lot of sense Doc .... but you seem to be missing a point here that might actually come into play .... I don't think BudOrr is in control anymore ..... It's K2's call now.

They most likely want to make something that is cheap and lower their prices and sell to more people....

[PissedGodzilla]

Pardon me for interrupting this anger-fest, but why does everyone simply automatically assume these are replacements for the Autococker line, and not additions to it?

When the WorrBlades came out, did they stop selling Black Magics?

The way I see it, these are a new line, designed and aimed entirely and only at competing with the cheap Wal-Mart/K-Mart markers. And in that case, upgradability is irrelevant, since the vast majority of them don't upgrade, typically not even barrels, let alone milling and anodizing.

But you and I will still be able to get WorrBlades, STOs, Black Magics and whatever else, from "real" paintball retailers, for however long K2/WGP feels they can make a buck off of them.

Doc.


Doc you're point is well taken, but wouldn't they put out press releases of their entire line for the next year at the same time??

Believe me I hope you are right, but I was under the impression that when they call these the 2005 series cockers, they mean that these are all of them....

[robdamanii]

Orr is still in control of operations for WGP/K2.

These are nothing more than a way to cut into the entry level market, and a good way of doing it, I might add. N00bs love cockers.

[Doc Nickel]

You make a lot of sense Doc .... but you seem to be missing a point here that might actually come into play .... I don't think BudOrr is in control anymore ..... It's K2's call now.

They most likely want to make something that is cheap and lower their prices and sell to more people....

-Yes, it's true that K2 is holding the reins now, but that's only been true for a month or two now. Development of this gun very likely took many months, and probably even longer than that to actually physically develop, machine, anodize and assemble.

Again, do you honestly think that WGP/K2 is going to drop their entire line in favor of these sub-$250 guns? As others have said, there's no easy way to attach an E-Blade solenoid to them, so that would mean if these were now the entire line of 'Cockers, they'd be dropping the near-new top-of-the-line Karnivore, among others.

Sorry, that ain't gonna happen.

These three are cheap, entry-level beginner's guns, designed to appeal to the Wal-Mart and K-Mart crowd, and priced to compete with the Spyder clones in the same market.

They're an ADDITION to the WGP line, not a replacement for it.


Doc you're point is well taken, but wouldn't they put out press releases of their entire line for the next year at the same time??

-Probably because the rest of the line really isn't being changed. In any case, when WGP brings out a new marker, they typically didn't show off the entire line, they showed only the new gun. When the Karnivore was released, they didn't also show off the Black Magic, the Worrblade and the STO, they didn't show off the e-Ranger and the Sniper, and so on. They release the one new gun and that's it.

We're seeing three at a time here because this is a new line of markers, essentially announcing the entry into a new market area.

Doc.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Let's look at the positives:

1. With Cockers, it's not just the timing that can throw the gun off. The alignment of the parts can also cause problems. When the front block shifts, usually one of the casualties would be the pump rod rubbing against the body or the ram shaft being stressed because it's not actuating in a linear fashion. With the fixed position of the ram on the actual body, this problem has been eliminated.

2. If the 3-way is integrated, it becomes less prone to suffer the same problems as the ram when the front block shifts. Trigger-player interface suffers when the 3-way shaft is not actuating in a linear fashion and it manifests itself by making the trigger stick and move slower. If it’s in the fixed position, it becomes less prone to that.

3. Entry-level guns available now have always had performance issues when ever dealing with CO2. By virtue of its design, Cockers are less prone to the usual swollen o-ring problems that arise with your standard stacked-tube blow-back. Given the choice, I'd rather have something that's a facsimile of a Cocker-like performance in a starter gun than any stacked-tube blow-backs out there. At least you wouldn't have the dilemma of the other entry-level guns when they go on full-auto when your air runs out and making it known to your opponents.

4. For an entry-level gun, the price points are good. Perhaps the upgrade path wouldn't be as diverse but who knows, creative designers can always come up with a solution to any problem......and guess who's already taking a look at it? ;)

If you just stand back and look at things objectively, you'll find that every cloud has a silver lining. By simplifying the gun with the removal of some of the things that have presented "problems" to Cocker novices, WGP has provided people new to the sport the ability to have a different choice in the entry-level market.

What WGP and K2 has done is to enable the new and budget-conscious players the ability to experience Cocker-like performance at bargain basement prices. Give them more options than your traditional blow-back. I think that's a win-win, don't you?