Paintball and "Mil Sim"

[Tyger]

I thought about making this a poll, but I would rather see discussion on this instead.

Over on another forum, a group of Mil-Sim players have been getting a hard time about wrecking the image of paintball. The Mil-Simmers, to their credit, didn't turn it into a flame war but did say something that made sense to me.


...you seem to think that we are half-crazed, psycho weekend warrior types. We go out to have fun just like the rest of you. We just prefer to play in large wooded areas rather than in smaller areas with spools, pipes, or blow up barriers.

Which brings me to the quesiton I have. I realise that there's already some gear out aimed right at the "Military Simulation" market (The Tac-1, for example), but you don't read about their style of play in the magazines and such. It seems to be a very underground movement, even with Airsoft in large stores like Galyans next to the paintball gear.

So should paintball as a society embrace the mil-sim style of play as a part of the larger "Paintball" culture?

-Tyger

[Mastema]

Not AGAIN! :(

[Brophog]

Does it have a choice?

Despite paintball's best effort in the opposite direction, people do, and may always, associate the sport with milsim or at the very least, people shooting each other in the woods.

Case in point: Last weekend we invited some guys from work out to our private field. True newbies.....they knew nothing of the sport.

And guess what we heard all day long?

Bullets. Magazines. Clips. Kills.

You get the idea.

Chrome the world to death. Play in pink bunkers with bunnies on them. But in the end, it seems that people can never get over the fact that it is a game involving two or more people shooting each other.

[Tyger]

Not AGAIN! :(

Was there a thread on this I missed? I'm being serious. As far as I can see, it shuld be addressed. When one of my local field owners mentions in casual conversation "We're going to try to organise an airsoft day" it tells me there's something more to this.

But if there's a recent thread on it, I'll go to it instead.

-Tyger

[Enos Shenk]

As a rabid libertarian and woods player, my neck hair rises whenever some holier-than-thou speed player starts ranting about how milsim and woods "kills" paintballs image. If someone wants to bolt a magazine on their gun, i say let them. As i see it, the milsimmers harbor the last of the dying breed of paintball players that actually build things themselves, the kind of people i respect over anyone else.

Am i the only one who has never seen the sense in that? Who cares what some overweight soccer mom thinks of a game we play? I sure dont. Am i the only one who doubts anyone is going to pass a law outlawing a multi-million dollar industry? Even if they do, who cares? Theres always outlaw.

I say play the game you want to play it. I wont dis on you if you dont dis on me. The only reason i tend to badmouth tourney people is i cant stomach their lack of morals or honor (call it what you will, fair play works too), and the fact that theyre always bashing on MY play in the woods.

[Mastema]

My "Not AGAIN" was for the topic.

Not another discussion about "how the mean and bad woodballers project a negative image compared to the saintly multicolored balloon playing speedballers"

It's been done and done and overdone again and again and.........

We all know how it's gonna go!

[quik]

Alot of 'paintballers' who seem to talk down about Mil-Simmers, are usually just kids who havent ever played in the woods without 'nature' obstacles. Most of the 'mil-simmers' that I've met have been twice as kind to me than any of the speedball playing kids.

I for one enjoy a day out with my friends(and sometimes with guys I dont know) in the woods alot more than the field sometimes. It really is a relaxed mood, and some of the games are indeed fun and really are challenging. Its a great change of pace from the usual 'chess-game-with-guns' routine at the local field, thats for sure :).

I for one think it is a great alternative to the people who dont enjoy playing speedball, and enjoy going out with their friends and having a good time.

Only complaint though I have about it is that sometimes they dont practice safety as much as some other people, but Im sure it can be remedied.

[sig11]

Not AGAIN!

I think he is saying "not another woods vs. speedball thread. When I started typing up a reply it came out as just that. :)

Lee

[teufelhunden]

I've got nothing against mil-sim paintball, but I don't understand why anybody at all plays it.

Airsoft is cheaper, the guns go auto, and you can actually have sniper, support, etc. in airsoft due to a much higher velocity limit and such. Plus the guns actually look milsim.

So yeah. Just makes sense to play airsoft if you're goin mil-sim.

[Tyger]

My "Not AGAIN" was for the topic.

Not another discussion about "how the mean and bad woodballers project a negative image compared to the saintly multicolored balloon playing speedballers"

It's been done and done and overdone again and again and.........

We all know how it's gonna go!

It can be kept civil, actually. That's why I asked on AO, and not somewhere else. AO has a diverse community of players, so it's a better litmus test than some other boards. I kinda wonder who else has "done" the mil-sim, would be willing to chat it up here.

And actually, I think everyone can bennefit from the viewpoints from everyone else. And besides, I think we've had a LOT of discussions about tournament players, I don't see a problem talking about the woods players for a change.

-Tyger

[Mastema]

The only thing I don't understand is that it's always "rec vs. speed"

Maybe I didn't get the right message from your first post .

If you really want to know why people play recball instead of airsoft you should have said so.

[Bulldog]

So should paintball as a society embrace the mil-sim style of play as a part of the larger "Paintball" culture?

Define "Paintball culture". Do you mean the fraction of players who post on boards like this? I thought woodsballers were the larger part of paintball?

Edit: And Woodsball = Mil Sim, right?

[Brophog]

I've got nothing against mil-sim paintball, but I don't understand why anybody at all plays it.

Airsoft is cheaper, the guns go auto, and you can actually have sniper, support, etc. in airsoft due to a much higher velocity limit and such. Plus the guns actually look milsim.

So yeah. Just makes sense to play airsoft if you're goin mil-sim.

Yes and no. The real advantage is the projectile size is so small that you can match realworld likenesses to actual firearms better than in paintball. As to velocity, while .2 gram BB's are typically allowed up close to 400 FPS, larger BB's and some alternate power sources vary greatly by field, almost always in the case of a much lower FPS rather than a larger one. In the end, the BB's tend to go a shorter distance than a paintball due to their tiny weight.

But most of the other regulations, including eye wear, are similiar to that of paintball. They tend to also use paintball RPG's and paintball grenades in their re-enactments.

Maybe the question should be, given the newfound popularity of armotech and similiar mi-sim markers, why would anyone go to airsoft?

[Tyger]

If you really want to know why people play recball instead of airsoft you should have said so.

Well, it's not just Airsoft, but that's a part of the whole. I mean there's companies like Special Ops Paintball (http://www.specopspaintball.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=71&HS=1) that make tippmans specifically for a more "realistic firearm feel". And LAPCO (http://lapco.net/tippmann.html) has a lot of aftermarket parts for the same reason. There's also the GunFX (http://www.gunfx.com/) (which is more for training, granted), and there's this guy, who's been around a while. He makes realistic "shells" (http://www.extremesportsandhobbies.com/) for other paintguns

There seems to be a lot of players who want to make a paintball Mil-Sim that isn't "airsoft", which is why I brought it up. They want a paintball military simulation that goes further that scenario games do.

Oh, woodsball doesn't equate to Mil-Sim. Mil-Sim is more of a "Simulation" of war with military theme and structure to it, or wargames. Rec-ball is just paintball in the woods.

-Tyger

[Severe]

I don't think it's just "some gear" per se. Consider the Tippmann A5 is specifically made to reasemble the HK MP5. And there are sites like www.OpsGear.com and www.A5Ownersgroup.com where modding their markers to make them more MilSim are all the rage. These sites do not generally consider the Tac-One MilSim because it does not resemble a military weapon, it's merely geared towards scenario play style. I wish it did have some kits to dress it up some.

At the field where I play Tippmann markers easily comprise 50% and higher of the markers being used. Now, admittedly, I play at a, by some standards, a small all-woods field in central NC. Also consider how large scale scenario games are becoming more popular and players are going to great lengths to attend them.

I understand that Rec-Ball and MilSim are not the same. However, these two styles of play tend to cross-lines much more often than say Speedball and Rec-ball. It's not a matter of whether or not the paintball community should recognize these players, they don't have too, this is simply another population of that community....I would guess a large and growing population.

Frankly I don't think it's an underground culture at all, it's just that the current lot of paintball magazines choose not to heavily cover it.

[brianlojeck]

1: Years ago paintball was milsim. We all got so scared that a left-wing PTA group would take away our right to wear camo and shoot black "guns", that we all stopped wearing camo and shooting black "guns". Does that even make a lick of sense?

2: Milsim paintball is FUN. I'd rather play Milsim style, with somewhat realistic ammo loads and engagement ranges then tournament ball. most fun of all is milsim tactics and ammo loads on a speedball field, but maybe that's just me. I watched a lot of SWAT when i was a kid...

3: what do you think scenario paintball is if not Milsim?

[RusskiX]

Though I suspect this topic WILL quickly degenerate into the old woods v. speedball debate, I enjoy the discussions that are a result.

What is kinda funny is the fact that I am a die-hard woodsballer because I enjoy the challenges of differing terrain, but I'm NOT a big fan of milsim. While most milsimmers are truely nice folks and enjoy the sport without an agenda, I do not approve of the realistic image they portray. Unfortunately, I do think milsim fosters ignorant paranoia in outside viewers that is attributed to paintball as a whole. And while I appreciate the creative expressions of milsim markers, real guns make me apprehensive and I prefer not to be around them.

I think that airsoft is a much better venue for milsim players due to the nature of the equipment and format. I also think that airsoft is in that infancy stage that paintball occupied 15-20 years ago. It is not as widely known outside of the community, it is not pushing a televised format and hence doesn't have as many hangups about image.

Certainly there is room for everyone in paintball, but I'm surprised more milsim players don't go with airsoft for the freedom and unspoiled nature it provides.

[Cougar]

Mil-Sim guys need one of these (http://www.rap4.com/) :headbang:

[Brophog]

but I'm surprised more milsim players don't go with airsoft for the freedom and unspoiled nature it provides

See post above regarding airsoft.



real guns make me apprehensive and I prefer not to be around them.

That's kind of ironic. I know of several gun owners, especially those owning assault weapons and other rifles whom feel the same way. Their opinion, as trained gun owners, is that they can't stand the idea of pointing something that looks like a real firearm at someone else.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

I say we let people play paintball however they want to, so long as they play safely.

But I do worry about the image that Mil-Sim play has, and that it will scare the Soccer-Moms. Soccer Moms complain to politicians, and they VOTE. Mil Sim has become and should remain the redheaded stepchild of mainstream paintball, certainly not something we should promote or publicize.

Mil Sim is not woodsball, and it's not scenario, either. At least not always. To me, Mil Sim is the attitude the gear and the whole approach to paintball as a wargame/tactical simulation rather than as just a game, played for fun.

One of my friends gave up paintball for Mil Sim Airsoft. They all wear matching camo uniforms (which change with the season), with $300 SpecOps webgear, and call each other Sarge and Captain. Their games are ambush and attack/defend scenarios. I don't know anyone who plays paintball like that. None of the Big games and Scenarios I've been to have been played that way. And I'm glad.

[Duck Hunt]

Look, the bottom line is this:

It doesn't matter if you're on a speedball field, or in the woods, or playing a war game, or playing russian roulette with a PGP. Each one of these different types of players do THE SAME THING. They GO OUT, HAVE FUN, and play PAINTBALL.

The REAL problem is the amount of UNEDUCATED people making perceptions about how "violent" these games are.


I'm going to be completely honest. I run into more friendly fun loving people playing woods or scenario then I do on the team practice field... most of those guys are abunch of asses. I almost had to light some guy up because we got into a fight about him playing on, he must have thought he was too good to call himself out.

Sean

[Enos Shenk]

certainly not something we should promote or publicize.

Ive never seen anyone "promote" milsim, ive never even seen milsim players try to promote themselves besides showing up at a scenario with a tippmann wrapped in AK47 parts.

[Lohman446]

Chrome the world to death. Play in pink bunkers with bunnies on them. But in the end, it seems that people can never get over the fact that it is a game involving two or more people shooting each other.

Agreed.. and with good reason. No matter what you do, the base premise of the game, is aiming your projectile firing device at someone, launchign a projectile at them and hoping it hits them to eliminate them. I dont care, its a sport that has violent attachments, and for good reasons. Thats what its based on.

Im sick of people telling me "speedball" (which I play more than woodsball) isn't violent and isn't like that. YOur shooting at people, thats the bottom line. Dont like it, go play basketball or something.

[Richter]

Mil-Sim markers I have yet to figure out. (Except the pistols).

At Shatnerball I saw many of the vendors geared to this style; Armotech and Special ops. This was my first time seeing most of these types of markers. (I have seen the tourney guns and displays at the larger tournaments) At this scenario was my first time seeing those hardcore mil-sim guys. (maybe I am mistaking hard core scenario “ballers for mil-sim)

I just don’t understand why someone would want to use one of these markers with the exception of a marker with a flatline barrel. Is it a cool factor? Are the used to shooting the real gun it is portraying? Other than the cool factor they seem to be more of a hamper to anyone’s game.

When I am looking at a new marker I do look at the “coolness factor” (always wanted a typhoon or blazer) but it not my major part of my buying process. I do consider uniqueness as a factor and maybe this mil-sim thing is allot like custom splash anodizing of the late 90s. (“Gun –envy”; my gun is bigger and or prettier than your gun;) Usually I am looking for an advantage when buy a marker.
Examples:
Automags: back in the day the quickest marker to squeegee; today lightness, low profile and level 10
Autococker: when tuned its one of the most efficient nicest working markers out there.
Angel LCD: In 2000 it was the new version of the angel which was more efficient and less likely to get bolt stick than the angel led. Plus it was the fastest marker out there at the time. I Still use it today.
Flatline Autococker: I use it for woods ‘ball; flatline distance is amazing; with a jam bolt it is very unlikely to break paint; unlike the Tippmans were I have seen many barrel breaks.

I just don’t an advantage to a mil-sim marker. VM 68/spyder clones with m16 stocks and stuff I just don’t get.

[brianlojeck]

Their games are ambush and attack/defend scenarios. I don't know anyone who plays paintball like that. None of the Big games and Scenarios I've been to have been played that way. And I'm glad.

Umm, Jeff... haven't I read about you attending the EMR Castle Big Game? (I could be wrong...)

Is having a "general" and an "XO" defend or attack a "castle" really any different then having a "sarge" and a "captain" defend an "ammo dump"?

[AclowN]

one of my favorite things about this game is... the variety of preferences people have, like a bright shiny gun to play tourney ball with? woohoo... like a mil sim based marker for the "realism"? awesome... Like stock class because you have less shots and rely more on skill or that "perfect opportunity" for you shot? Great...

the people that shun Mil Sim type players are one thing.... mostly children... and mostly from the city, where there are not many areas to play IN the woods... why shun woodsball? why shun a different way to enjoy rec balling opposed to you same old bunker ball day in day out, why not enjoy a little realism if thats your thing, why not enjoy the safety of a bunker rather than the frailty of a couple of bushes? why should you be angry over how someone else plays a sport? man... we need to BANISH street basketball then... because it is corrupting the way the proffessional side of the sport is played. oh and lets ban highschool and college football because it has some differences in rules compared to professional play.

someone likes to play paintball in a war like environment... SO WHAT... does this effect someone that prefers to play on a speedball field? no....
will this change the fact that we shoot round Projectiles.... similar to old blackpowder rifle rounds.... only filled with paint and traveling slower...
to ANYONE uneducated to this game, do you think this does NOT sound dangerous? especially if they have seen an ugly bruise from being bunkered or lit up....
does running around in pretty jerseys and pants change the fact of what is being fired? so does it change the outlook from the ignorant point of view?

fact is, no... none of this changes things, how the game is played doesnt change anything, the fact that we are playing a game where we SHOOT at each other.... this alone strikes fear into the "Soccer Mom's".... its not the mil sim goons bent on play simulating warfare.... or the sprinting across field to bunker someone at 2 feet way and bonus ball them a fiew times... it is the fact that this game, to the dumb person, is EASILY associated with real fire arms.

and another thing that is not helping us one bit is the lack of positive publicity.... there is a little.... but not enough... all we see is the negative... like the Co2 tank related deaths, and the paintball marker drive-by's...

all in the end, why do we shun each other... mil simmers, or tourney ballers... we all enjoy the same game, just in different circumstances and play styles......

so lets all just :cuss: :cuss: get along please? and let the bouncy ball make you smile.. :bounce: :bounce:

[Got_Paint]

3: what do you think scenario paintball is if not Milsim?


Scenario is a paintball game with a storyline where you write the story...ever been to a black cats game or MXS?

Last weekend I played a game based on United Earth Federation. We played in the woods, COPS911 came out, but does that make it mil-sim no!

The storyline was based around wackyness, I ended up on the final battle of the first day running a prop back to our base...you know what that prop was, a skeleton of William Shatner :rofl: .

My friends team the BMF Renegades a scenario team based out of San Fran wears hawaiin shirts!

THere is a very different side ot scenario besides mil-sim.


Mil-sim is another apsect of the sport, not my bag, but hey if you enjoy it go for it!

[brianlojeck]

Scenario is a paintball game with a storyline where you write the story...ever been to a black cats game or MXS?

I haven't. I'm really just playing devils advocate here. I always found this argument wrought with logical holes...



Last weekend I played a game based on United Earth Federation. We played in the woods, COPS911 came out, but does that make it mil-sim no!


so a scenario gamer defends his UEF general, A mil-sim gamer "saves Private Ryan". is the only difference the brand of beer drunk afterwards?



The storyline was based around wackyness, I ended up on the final battle of the first day running a prop back to our base...you know what that prop was, a skeleton of William Shatner :rofl: .

wackyness aside, is the only difference cosmetic? if I dressed a bunch of milsim guys up in space suits, there would be no problem?

[paullus99]

I'd buy an Armotech gun in a second if I thought it would be as reliable as my Mag or even a Tac-One. Sorry, but I grew up playing war in my neighborhood & really enjoyed it. I was the armory for all the local kids, I had the plastic Uzis, shotguns, etc. A friend of mine even had a bazooka (you pumped it & it make a great firing sound when you pulled the trigger).

I got into paintball because it was a logical extension of what I did when I was much younger. Now I play scenario's & if you check out our website, you'll notice the military-nature of our look. We're not psychos, we don't like to hurt people (as opposed to some speedball players that seem to think 10 - 20 shots are necessary to get someone out), and I have yet to meet a scenario player who was not extremely nice and non-judgmental.

Now, I haven't played AirSoft - although that option is open, but I'm perfectly happy with the situation I'm in right now. When the team goes to practice, its interesting to see the reaction from the speedball players - derision, until we bowl them over on the field. What we do it just a different branch of the same sport & it seems to really appeal to the older crowd (late 20's & 30's - some older tournament players that get burnt out, ect).

Paintball has changed a lot since I started back in 1988. I'm just happy that I've found a good group of guys (and girls) that like to head out to scenarios & other events and have a good time. At the end of the day, that's what's important to me.

[Eagle]

well, considering that 'mil-sim' is where paintball got started...

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Umm, Jeff... haven't I read about you attending the EMR Castle Big Game? (I could be wrong...)

Is having a "general" and an "XO" defend or attack a "castle" really any different then having a "sarge" and a "captain" defend an "ammo dump"?



Touché. I don't think of Castle Conquest as a military-style game, partly because of the props and the setting. There are designated leaders, and game-plans, but the players don't think of it as a Mil-Sim game, and I think that is the difference.

All paintball involves firing projectiles at your opponent to eliminate them, and some application of military-style tactics: suppressing fire, flanking moves, etc. But IMO it's not Mil-Sim unless you are deliberately trying to replicate military appearance and practice. I don't know anyone who does that with paintball.

[brianlojeck]

But IMO it's not Mil-Sim unless you are deliberately trying to replicate military appearance and practice.

regarding military practice, I think the average paintball player could very well benefit to learn some military practices. Something as simple as learning the "SWAT Squat", learning how to chamber your 'gun while moving, having a series of hand gestures for communication, would all go very much good to the average baller, especially in a scenario game. Appearances aside, these are good things.

(as an aside, didn't your fellow Can-Con member, Durty Dan, write bunches of articles on these very military skills as they apply to paintball?)

Everything else is just window-dressing, isn't it?

(BTW, I really am just playing devil's advocate here. I, like you, would not want to attend a "find Osama Bin Ladin" scenario game, but would not have an issue with a "Where's Waldo" scenario game. I'm amazed, even in my own line of thinking, how little sense it makes, and I do think some SWAT style skills would do great good to most players' games.)

(edited for layout repair, no text changes)

[White_Noise]

the milsim/woodsball vs. speedball debate has got to stop.

each one is a different style of play steming from paintball. each brings different aspects to the game play that the other cant. by having both, paintball can appeal to larger demographic and can expand and become more popular much more quickly than if just one type existed.

on a personal note, i play on tournament teams and love to play speedball. but paintball started in the woods and thats where i stated playing. i still enjoy going to big woods game once in a while just as a change of pace, and to use a whole different style of play and strategy.

so in all seriousness, stop this silly debate and learn to realize that both speedball and woods/milsim exist. and learn to treat those who play the type that you dont as fellow paintballers and not as some outcast group.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

regarding military practice, I think the average paintball player could very well benefit to learn some military practices. Something as simple as learning the "SWAT Squat", learning how to chamber your 'gun while moving, having a series of hand gestures for communication, would all go very much good to the average baller, especially in a scenario game. Appearances aside, these are good things.

(as an aside, didn't your fellow Can-Con member, Durty Dan, write bunches of articles on these very military skills as they apply to paintball?)

Everything else is just window-dressing, isn't it?

(BTW, I really am just playing devil's advocate here. I, like you, would not want to attend a "find Osama Bin Ladin" scenario game, but would not have an issue with a "Where's Waldo" scenario game. I'm amazed, even in my own line of thinking, how little sense it makes, and I do think some SWAT style skills would do great good to most players' games.)

(edited for layout repair, no text changes)

Agreed, a lot of it is window dressing. But as anyone in retail will tell you, window dressing is important if you want people to come into your store.

Back in the 90's Durty Dan did write a bunch of articles on how to apply military tactics and ideas to paintball. CanCon still uses a lot of those ideas, and I think a big part of the way we play has evolved from the military experience of many of our members. But Dan also wrote at least one article opposing the idea of military-looking markers, and another about moving paintball away from camouflage & the whole pseudo-military look(which is when we adopted our hockey jerseys).


the milsim/woodsball vs. speedball debate has got to stop.

each one is a different style of play steming from paintball. ...

so in all seriousness, stop this silly debate and learn to realize that both speedball and woods/milsim exist. and learn to treat those who play the type that you dont as fellow paintballers and not as some outcast group.

I thought we had established that woodsball is not teh same as MilSim? Thus, there are at least three styles of paintball.

Durty Dan wrote a few articles on the eternal debate, too. "This semi vs. stock debate has got to stop", and "The rec play vs. tourney debate is a waste of time". He was right, and the logic still applies: Go play paintball however you want, with like-minded people, and respect other people's different choices. Just have fun.

[Mosfet]

When will people stop driving their stock cars around?
Its like so lame!
Everyone needs to sell off or burn their stock cars and get Ricer cars with NOS because thats whats cool.
Anyone with out a ricer is obviously a newb and a loser!
In Fact, Companies need to stop building economy cars period, and focus on the cars that can be modded, or come stock with rice.

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Why do companies even bother making these low end 2D video cards for computers?
Only lamer noobs play games that don't require advanced 3D graphics! Companies need to stop making those cards, and those people who still don't go out and get the latest 3D card need to go hide in a hole and sell their computer, because they shouldn't even have one anyway!

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Does anyone else see this whole Speedball > woodsball > milsim as silly as the above 2 arguments, or is it just me?