05 Cocker Pics...close ups

[zeroack]

A buddy of mine wanted some close up's of the new 05 cockers. We just happen to have a few for a photoshoot for our catalog so I took a few pics of my own. I own a Chipley SV and handling these markers just doesn't feel right. I'm not knocking them cause I've never shot them but they just feel cheap(and they are). You can see mass production all over them. Here's a couple pics. More later if people are interested or would like to see a certian part.

http://www.hamilton.net/~tron/junk/cocker1.jpg

http://www.hamilton.net/~tron/junk/cocker2.jpg

These are shots of the "supa cheap" model. The hose was missing after one of the photographers decided to gas it up and some how blew it off.

Zero

[PBX Ronin 23]

It was a good thing that WGP didn't show this side of the guns before. They would have been ripped even harder. That 3-way, OMG! It looks like the "front block" is one of those Spyder clone ASA manifolds that plug the big gapping hole in the front of the gun.

If that front manifold can be upgraded, then it might not be a total loss.

Nonetheless, we have to accept the fact that this is competing against the other Walmart guns. If it functions anything like how a cocker functions then that's a good thing to offer something different for this market niche.

As a cocker purist, I will reserve judgement until I actually shoot one.

[RES=Mr.Green]

My question is what happens if the three way goes bad? Do you have to get a new ASA, O' wait a minute the asa is part of the body from what the pictures look like. So I guess you need a new body. Plus what about the revelation they just came out with. THe tickler 3-way. That thing is great for timing and messing with the trigger. It looks like you have no way of adjusting the 3way.

I just don't like the design. You can have 50 of the same cocker bodies and not have one the same. This one you can't put your personal touch on it. I think the theory behind it is nice but I think WGP either over shot or lost the concept of a cocker in the final product.

Well I guess working on a cocker has gone from the dark arts to Walmart. Sniff Sniff. I'm just glad I had enough money to buy a new cocker before WGP came out with this knock off.


:cheers: Heres to Kingman for making K2/WGP sell-out :cheers:

[ted.c0bb1es]

:( too bad :rolleyes:

[Koosh]

When do Three ways "go bad"?

Get a few new orings and it'll work out...

[RES=Mr.Green]

Out of the 10 years I've played I've had 2 or 3 go bad for various reasons. But I still want to know about the adjustability on the 3 way.

[SpecialBlend2786]

I dont think that coming out with these guns is a bad move. I just hope that the ProStock is not discontinued.....those things are awesome for the price.

[LudavicoSoldier]

What gun is that lurking in the background?

[Automaggot68]

Does anyone else hear the Benny Hill Theme Song (Yakety Sax) When they invision a photogragher gassing up that thing?

[LittlePaintballBoy]

What gun is that lurking in the background?

Looks like some model of Pirahna EForce to me.

[teufelhunden]

Looks like some model of Pirahna EForce to me.


Yeah, with that whole single trigger thing ;)

[trxrustler3]

Definately a Pirahna pistol of some sorts...

[Mosfet]

Awesome!
If I ever have spare cash, I'm getting one of those and moving the eframe from my Dragunfly over to the '05.
Just zip tie the Solenoid to the LPR and I'm in business! :D

[RES=Mr.Green]

Awesome!
If I ever have spare cash, I'm getting one of those and moving the eframe from my Dragunfly over to the '05.
Just zip tie the Solenoid to the LPR and I'm in business! :D


:rofl: !!!YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING!!! :rofl:

[Bulldog]

Anybody know what the gripframes are made out of?

[robdamanii]

Ok, look.

THIS IS AN ENTRY LEVEL COCKER. IT WILL NOT REPLACE YOUR 05 VERTICAL BY ANY MATTER OF MEANS!

This is for entry level players to get a taste of the cocker world, so stop worrying about "is this the future of the VF cocker", because it is not.

And that directly from our wOrr rep.

[RES=Mr.Green]

Thats not the article's I've been reading? There are three new designs from entry level to pro. All with the same style but better quality valve reg etc.....

http://www.68caliber.com/news/industry/story04348.php

http://www.paintballstar.com/pn/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&topic_id=43&page_id=225#Trilogy-Pro-Marker.jpg

From the above 2 articles and other's I've read this is the new standard. As for what there going to do with the Carnivor and Oraccle I don't know but hopefull they will still produce them with the three new 05 cockers.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Ok, look.

THIS IS AN ENTRY LEVEL COCKER. IT WILL NOT REPLACE YOUR 05 VERTICAL BY ANY MATTER OF MEANS!

This is for entry level players to get a taste of the cocker world, so stop worrying about "is this the future of the VF cocker", because it is not.

And that directly from our wOrr rep.We understand that it is not the 05 VF, Mr. Holmes........

What we're lamenting, and justfully so, is the level of craftsmanship that has apparently gone into this thing and the lack of visible means to upgrade it. Upgrading, isn't that one of the strengths of the Autococker?

I can personally accept the fact that indeed it was designed to be hung on hooks on the walls of a mass merchandiser. But knowing and understanding mass manufacturing tolerances and techniques vis-a-vis the inherent complexity of the automated cocking design, I can see problems occuring. Problems that cannot be readily solved by just upgrading a part here, a part there.

And like I have previously stated, I'll reserve judgement until I've actually shot one.

[Maus]

If anyone but WGP made this, like one of the popular third-party shops, you guys would pledge your undying love for it.

[RES=Mr.Green]

Maybe your right. But think of it this way. What would you say if ferrari made a gremlin? Would you still think of them the same? I'm just holding WGP to a higher standard. Especially after they released the Carni. I'm waiting for a chance to see it. But right now, I cant think of any reason why I would buy it. Weather it be WGP or if a third party made it. Honestly I belive they took several steps back instead of forward......

[Mosfet]

:rofl: !!!YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING!!! :rofl:

And what would be the problem with that idea?

Its a way to "upgrade" a super cheap Dragunfly to be able to take Cocker parts such as barrels, bolts, and some other internals.

[Target Practice]

About that Karni...I got a chance to shoot one at the NPPL Vegas even. They are outstanding. If you don't mind cheater software, that is. Anyhoo, back to the topic.

I own both an '02 and an '03 VF. I have to say, the difference in body styles is extremely evident, which is obvious. Personally, I think that the '02 just feels better. If I can get both cockers timed before Saturday, I'll shoot 'em bothe and see if I can feel a difference.

One thing I did notice, though: Even though they both have hinge triggers, the '02 feels like it's made a little better.

Anyhoo, if anyone else can do it, maybe get some pics with the pre/post body style switch.

Chances are, I'll be sticking with my '02 ( :headbang: ) if WGP starts to go cheap.

[FallNAngel]

Cheater software?

[robdamanii]

Maybe your right. But think of it this way. What would you say if ferrari made a gremlin? Would you still think of them the same? I'm just holding WGP to a higher standard. Especially after they released the Carni. I'm waiting for a chance to see it. But right now, I cant think of any reason why I would buy it. Weather it be WGP or if a third party made it. Honestly I belive they took several steps back instead of forward......

Lord almighty...

This was never meant for experienced people to buy.

Look at it this way. The LARGEST market segment of the paintball industry is new players. That garners about 60% of the share, if I remember my figures from last year correctly. Who owns that market? Kingman, PMI, Tippmann, etc. wOrr has virtually no part of that huge entry level market, esentially because autocockers are too complicated for most newbies, and too expensive.

WGP has now provided a lower priced model, albeit without some of the upgradeablility of the VF series, but also without as much chance of something being screwed up by an unknowing n00b who doesn't know what they are doing.

Look at it like this, once a n00b buys this...WGP is hoping they enjoy it, and because it can't be upped as well as a VF, to sell it off or keep it and buy a VF to upgrade.

In essence, this is a fantastic way to both bring the autococker to new players for less cost and less fear of difficult maintainence, as well as cut into that huge market that is controlled by Kingman, Tippmann, PMI, etc.

The Karni will stay, there is a new black magic in the works, the 05 Vertical line will be out soon....there's nothing this line does except expand WGP into the only segment of the market that they don't have share in currently.

If you don't like them, don't buy them. But I know already from working at the shop and from talking to people, these are highly anticipated and are going to be a very hot commodity among young/new players.

And of course, don't knock em until you try em.

[Deathshadow9k]

i think i'm a little more interested in that pirahna pistol than this debate about the cocker....

[Koosh]

Zeroack posted the pics on our local colorado forum...

http://www.hamilton.net/~tron/junk/pmipistol.jpg

His words...


Well I got the sample on my desk today. It's a PMI Piranha paintball pistol called the USB. Smaller then a Zeus and PT Extream but not as well finished in my opinion. The loading device looks to need some work and the spring load wouldn't lock back on the pistol I have. So loading it with two hands would be impossable. However the pistol we have maybe a prototype or early production model. I'll try and get a few pics from work tomorrow.


The pistol is a little cheesy like I said. It just feels like I'll break it even more so them my PT Extream and alot more then my Zeus. I can't even compare it to my pgp.

[paintballer187]

The gun just plain looks cheap.

[Mosfet]

^^^ What Rob said! :ninja:

[Target Practice]

Cheater software?

There is no way in Hades that I was firing as fast as that the Karni was shooting. I've pulled 19 cps on an Emag with 3.2--that's the extent of my ability. I was definately exceeding that with the Karni. I know I was up over 25, I had to be. I'm sure that some of the shots were not caused by be pulling the trigger.

[Thermus]

I think WGP is making a great move. They could be the first an only company to appeal to all levels of players.

[NoLifeLeft]

I personally don't like the looks of the new cocker. However, to be fair instead of comparing it to the 04 vf cocker :nono: compare it to what it will compete against in its price class. The Spyder E99 Avant? The Pirahna Eforce EXT? Hell the Tippy 98 Custom is about $140. Compared to those it may be a worthy product. We'll see.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Lord almighty...

This was never meant for experienced people to buy.

Look at it this way. The LARGEST market segment of the paintball industry is new players. That garners about 60% of the share, if I remember my figures from last year correctly. Who owns that market? Kingman, PMI, Tippmann, etc. wOrr has virtually no part of that huge entry level market, esentially because autocockers are too complicated for most newbies, and too expensive.

WGP has now provided a lower priced model, albeit without some of the upgradeablility of the VF series, but also without as much chance of something being screwed up by an unknowing n00b who doesn't know what they are doing.

Look at it like this, once a n00b buys this...WGP is hoping they enjoy it, and because it can't be upped as well as a VF, to sell it off or keep it and buy a VF to upgrade.

In essence, this is a fantastic way to both bring the autococker to new players for less cost and less fear of difficult maintainence, as well as cut into that huge market that is controlled by Kingman, Tippmann, PMI, etc.

The Karni will stay, there is a new black magic in the works, the 05 Vertical line will be out soon....there's nothing this line does except expand WGP into the only segment of the market that they don't have share in currently.

If you don't like them, don't buy them. But I know already from working at the shop and from talking to people, these are highly anticipated and are going to be a very hot commodity among young/new players.

And of course, don't knock em until you try em.

Agreed! :cheers:

[RRfireblade]

So far, they seem to be pretty nice shooting markers. They're factory timed and preset. They are not meant to be upgraded and for who they were meant for, they don't need to and shouldn't be 'messed' with anyway.I do find it quite interesting that everyone either : 1) trashes cockers for needing to be 'tuned' all the time (Not true) or 2) Now complains that there's no longer anything to 'Tune'. :rolleyes: Make up your minds, you can't have it both ways.

As for the 3 way and such. The only parts capabable of failing are servicable. Basically comes down to a few o-rings. They also have a new valve designed specifically to deal with CO2 making them even more user freindly and accessable to newer players looking for something better than the average blowback.

The build quality seems to be quite good and the finish is more than acceptable.They do look much bettter in person, IMO.

Ultimately it looks like a very good business move for WGP and I think they will do very well with them.

And as some have stated,these will have no impact on the SS,Karni and VF so don't sweat it.

[zeroack]

I'll try and get them out this weekend and shoot them. I think I can be fair in reviewing them as I've owned a SystemX base and now own a Chipley SV. I've seen both ends of the market. The two 05's I have are both sprung very oddly I've never heard that sort of sound come out of a cocker before. They both also differ in how they were timed. One has the back block with no spacing at all, the other has more room then I'd like if I'd timed it. More pics and a review on Monday...

Zero

[FallNAngel]

There is no way in Hades that I was firing as fast as that the Karni was shooting. I've pulled 19 cps on an Emag with 3.2--that's the extent of my ability. I was definately exceeding that with the Karni. I know I was up over 25, I had to be. I'm sure that some of the shots were not caused by be pulling the trigger.


Two questions then:

A) Did you sound graph it... any actual *proof* ? As you said "I had to be", I have a feeling the answer is no
B) How high was the bounce filter?

[Target Practice]

Two questions then:

A) Did you sound graph it... any actual *proof* ? As you said "I had to be", I have a feeling the answer is no
B) How high was the bounce filter?

A) I was standing with the guy that wrote 4.0 (Miscue). He knows what he's talking about, and in his (what I consder expert) opinion, it was ramping like a bad mother-- Shut your mouth! I'm talkin' 'bout rampin'.

B) The debounce setting is a moot point. If it ramps, at ANY debounce setting, it is cheater software.

'Course, no one is going to NOT allow them in tourney play, because who's gonna say "No" to WGP?

[Enos Shenk]

I had been waiting for pics of that 3-way.

I still say it would take a sufficiently talented person all of an hour to retrofit a 3-oring core and a chopped timing rod on there.

I might pick one up just to fool around with it and see how far it can be modified.

[spasticsquirrel]

I knew it from the moment K2 bought wgp, they are making cheap wal mart guns.

[FallNAngel]

A) I was standing with the guy that wrote 4.0 (Miscue). He knows what he's talking about, and in his (what I consder expert) opinion, it was ramping like a bad mother-- Shut your mouth! I'm talkin' 'bout rampin'.

I'm not doubting Miscue's coding ability. I doubt just about anyone's ability to tell how fast any marker is shooting without a proper sound graph. Also, please don't tell me to shut my mouth, my statements are just as valid as yours.


B) The debounce setting is a moot point. If it ramps, at ANY debounce setting, it is cheater software.

Apparently you're missing my point. I'm trying to say it was more likely that it was bounce than ramping.

[PaintballSmurf13]

Umm... where are the barbs? :rolleyes: Cheap is the whole point... mass production = cheap, cheap=grab newbs, newbs like the gun and buy more expensive cockers... its all money and marketing... i think it's cool, I would rather buy one of those than a spyder or something...
-Ryan

[jewie27]

Automags.org?

[Mosfet]

Automags.org?

nawww....
I'd still rather get the '05 cocker than a spyder or an automags.org...
:P

[Target Practice]

. Also, please don't tell me to shut my mouth, my statements are just as valid as yours.

Wow, it looks like some one missed the train to Humorville. Oh well, that was a Shaft reference, but I shouldn't have expected you to know that. My fault entirely.

:rolleyes:

[tsc]

I was standing next to Miscue, Ed, and TP at the booth.

Tell me, when a marker clacks off a few shots, then lets loose a steady stream, no burps or pauses, for two seconds, do you have some doubt that it's the fingers on the trigger? I sure do.

I'd venture to say that I know TP pretty well, and I know that he can't pull that fast. It's as simple as that. Even on my scarily fast emag, he can't do it.

I can understand doubting one person's opinion. But four? All experienced players, one who's written the software for an electro marker, and who KNOWS when a trigger is doing something it's not supposed to? That's quite the suspension of judgement, almost to a fault.

I can see erring on the side of the companies producing these boards/markers-- One expects a company to be forthright with their claims of their marker's abilities. However, it's come to the point where one cannot truly expect that; to think that paintball is immune to lying is naive at best-- and even the best tricksters get too cocky, and get a little lax in hiding thier trespasses.

[Wc Keep]

TP im not trying to discredit you, but ive heard before that because of the way the cocker is, it is physically impossible for a normal cocker to cycle over 19 bps. really 25 bps is outrageous. can you please get us a sound clip of this?

[FragTek]

I'm sorry but these things are absolutely 100% HORRIBLE!

Shame on WGP!


TP im not trying to discredit you, but ive heard before that because of the way the cocker is, it is physically impossible for a normal cocker to cycle over 19 bps. really 25 bps is outrageous. can you please get us a sound clip of this?

I'm sorry I didnt research the previous posts any harder for more of what you are talking about. However, a bone stock cocker, lets say with an eblade, would probably top out at 15 or so? Dunno, somewhere around there I'd say. I'm not sure if you were referring to stock cockers or all cockers.

If you wanna get into the high end cockers, the RG HalfBlock can do 24+bps and I'm pretty sure the Karni is capable of 22+bps.

[skife]

About that Karni...I got a chance to shoot one at the NPPL Vegas even. They are outstanding. If you don't mind cheater software, that is. Anyhoo, back to the topic.

I own both an '02 and an '03 VF. I have to say, the difference in body styles is extremely evident, which is obvious. Personally, I think that the '02 just feels better. If I can get both cockers timed before Saturday, I'll shoot 'em bothe and see if I can feel a difference.

One thing I did notice, though: Even though they both have hinge triggers, the '02 feels like it's made a little better.

Anyhoo, if anyone else can do it, maybe get some pics with the pre/post body style switch.

Chances are, I'll be sticking with my '02 ( :headbang: ) if WGP starts to go cheap.


i bought an '03 and wasn't happy with the milling on it, the sight rail and this spot in it where the mill cut a little to deep in one spot.

[Ipb_Orracle27]

AGD EDIT: watch the language and change the sig

[jewie27]

God damn reminds me of thos stupid *** spiders that people buy CHEAP i'll stick with the looks of my orracle

eww..... Look at that fAt BLiMP on that COCK--------------ERRR.