Thoughts on Cheating? [Archive] - Automags.Org Online Forums

trains are bad

09-17-2004, 01:38 PM

ROF must be controlled. This was done with semi auto, guess what everyone is getting around it and even if they aren't semi auto does not limit ROF satisfactorily.

The solution to the illegal marker thing is to either

1. ban electros (since enforcing both bounce and software is impossible, i knew this when they started coming out, it was just a matter of how long everyone was going to play nice) and require minimum trigger pull weights for mechs to limit mechanical bounce

2. stop requireing semi auto (since enforcing both bounce and software is impossible or impractical) and control ROF through paint limiting, field design, hopper rules, and/or rigorous overshooting penalties..... or if the nxl is for real, a BPS cap.

Make high ROF a DISADVANTAGE and the problem will go away.

As for wiping, good reffing and HARSH (useful) penalties are all we need. By harsh I mean wiping forfeits the game if not DQing the TEAM from the tournament!

DarkRipper

09-17-2004, 01:43 PM

I have to agree, the wiping is the worst of the two problems between it and ramping eguns. Most of the time the people shooting fast don't have the basics down on how to play their bunkers... they play with their triggers the whole time and hope they don't get snapshot.

madmolly

09-17-2004, 02:41 PM

We all shoot fairly fast on my team the slowest guy probably still pulls 10 bps. When we went against the team with the ramping boards the fire power was crazy. One of our guys took 10 actual hits just sliding into his bunker(how many more do you think missed him and that was one marker. That is just crazy. I agree wiping sucks and is hard to get away with but these markers are getting crazy with the amount of paint they throw. Which is not the skill of the player it is the skill of the gun.

ojhspyro89

09-17-2004, 02:48 PM

I find most this cheating stuff almost comical. The point at which people wipe is annoying but thats like REAL low. If they arent good enuf to just not wipe and call themselves out the suck. Ramping boards are funny too. ROF isnt that much of an importance if you know how to play your bunker and know how to shoot your gun. But every guy likes faster stuff, i like fast guns too but its almost in practicle in TONS of ways.

SlipknotX556

09-17-2004, 02:49 PM

Personally, I love the ramping dm4s and bounce. I used to run my timmy at no bounce, but I have grown to love the bounce, ramping. Paintball guns will only get faster in the future, every player is looking for more speed, it will never slow down.

wolfwood_is_here

09-17-2004, 04:13 PM

It makes you appreciate the old days of pumps where you were dang sure you got someone, becuase you made shots that counted. You did not have huge ROF's, becuase you had to pump every time. You could not "lane" because you only had a 12 gram co2 that could only last about 20 or so shots. There was skill, in things like quickchangers and reloading from 10rd tubes. Those were good old days.

Today, there is such a tilt to high ROF with markers like the Timmy, that a person could easily drown hundreds of dollars just on paint, unless they bothered a company or shop enough to sponsor them. Most stock or pump players carry 100 or so rounds per game, and pretty consistently use less than 500 rounds in a day of play. Too much emphasis on people who can get sponsored to pay for everything, and then just rain paint onto the field. I understand paintball is expensive, but sometimes it can get excessive.

I mean, if cheating were not such a big problem, why is it a consistent theme on the whiteboard...

It is kinda like comparing two individual sports that take place on the same turf. It is like skiiers vs. snowboarders. Sure, both have extremes, but skiing has been around longer and is considered more "noble" than snowboarding. Snowboarding has become extremely popular today becuase of its easy ability to learn, and the extreme fast paced hype that goes with it. Skiing is just as intense, sometimes can be even more so (think of winter olympics and the long jump they have, where people ski down a huge hill and try to fly as far as possible. Don't see too many snowboarders doing that...yet).

Things will always change, be it for better or worse. Lets just try to have a good attitude and keep the language "G" rated and we could be ready for anything that comes our way.

personman

09-17-2004, 04:29 PM

and control ROF through paint limiting and/or a BPS cap.

Make high ROF a DISADVANTAGE and the problem will go away.
I agree with this. I think if each player was only allowed say.. a non accumulative 300-400 rounds a game ( that seems fair to me, I can usually make it through two or three games on a hopper ) it would help with some of the rof cheating problems. I'm sorry, but you cant honestly believe that you have skill if you're dumping 1000 rounds a game. BPS caps would work, but I think that full auto should still be illigal. If you're in the staging area and you have a f/a 13 bps gun you could like tap the trigger and shoot 3 balls on accident, possibly injuring someone if you arent careful. I think its not as much of an issue with barrel condoms since they are stronger than plugs, but still, it is an issue.

SlartyBartFast

09-17-2004, 04:32 PM

[QUOTE=wolfwood_is_here]
I mean, if cheating were not such a big problem, why is it a consistent theme on the whiteboard...
[\QUOTE]

http://www.the-whiteboard.com/autowb356.html

Gotta love the Whiteboard! :clap:

hAppy

09-17-2004, 04:44 PM

If you need to cheat to compensate for your lack of skill, than you shouldn't play paintball because you are a failure. Simple answer for a simple problem. The truth is if you cheat, you just can't play, some people won't face the fact and will just argue that cheating is acceptable, whatever works for them.

Target Practice

09-17-2004, 04:47 PM

Cheaters suck. If you cheat, may you get hit by a bus.

FallNAngel

09-17-2004, 05:26 PM

I mean, if cheating were not such a big problem, why is it a consistent theme on the whiteboard...

Actually it hasn't been except for the past few.

wolfwood_is_here

09-17-2004, 05:37 PM

Ok, true, you are right.

But if it has been important enough to be on the last few whiteboards, it must be important. :D

Then of course by that note, Dew is the most important thing...and I would like to see someone argue that one.. :headbang:

:cheers:

-=Squid=-

09-17-2004, 05:38 PM

Don't blaim losing on ramping boards. That's one of the most lame excuses I have ever heard.

hAppy

09-17-2004, 05:44 PM

Don't blaim losing on ramping boards. That's one of the most lame excuses I have ever heard.
He means cheating in general, I think

-=Squid=-

09-17-2004, 05:45 PM

He means cheating in general, I think
Ya, I know... But the second post I believe claims that they can't win because of cheater boards.

SlipknotX556

09-17-2004, 05:50 PM

I <3 cheater boards :) .

Lohman446

09-17-2004, 05:57 PM

I agree with this. I think if each player was only allowed say.. a non accumulative 300-400 rounds a game ( that seems fair to me, I can usually make it through two or three games on a hopper ) it would help with some of the rof cheating problems. I'm sorry, but you cant honestly believe that you have skill if you're dumping 1000 rounds a game. BPS caps would work, but I think that full auto should still be illigal. If you're in the staging area and you have a f/a 13 bps gun you could like tap the trigger and shoot 3 balls on accident, possibly injuring someone if you arent careful. I think its not as much of an issue with barrel condoms since they are stronger than plugs, but still, it is an issue.

Before I get into this, let me say I agree in part with you.

Now, don't blame loosing to the other team on the amount of paint in the air. Mearly "playing with the trigger" does not cut down lanes, does not score eliminations, and is just not effective. There is a lot of skill in those players that are able to shoot that amount of paint towards a target... let's respect that. FYI - it is seldom that I drop more than one or two pods in a game, I'm not the player Im begging for respect.

Squid is right, if you are loosing to a team, aside from wiping, playing on, etc. you need to change strategies, time moves, and lay cover. I dont care how much paint they are dumping, if you communicate with your backplayers, and get them in for a few seconds, you can move.

That being said, for economic reasons I would agree wtih a pod per team limit. Each team limited in pods, to be distrubuted how they want each game. I think it would add a strategy to the game.

But, you can compete in todays shooting methods, it just requires, to me, better teamwork. Work on it... work on the styles you see against you, rather than just complaining about the problems

For the record, last tournament, we got stomped. It seemed every team had bouncey guns and unlimited paint. We failed to plan our moves well, to work well as a team, to overcome it, and that is why we lost. We failed to adapt to the style of play that day. Don't fault the style,fault your own failures.

Bobbyboy

09-17-2004, 06:06 PM

Paintball guns will only get faster in the future, every player is looking for more speed, it will never slow down.

Not true it has to stop some where either for physical, finacial, of saftey related issues. The real question is when.

Target Practice

09-17-2004, 07:29 PM

Not true it has to stop some where either for physical, finacial, of saftey related issues. The real question is when.

I believe that the speed factor is starting to level out, personally. Definately with in the next year, barring any revolutionary technologies that could/could not be coming out.

ilikePB

09-17-2004, 07:48 PM

I think if each player was only allowed say.. a non accumulative 300-400 rounds a game ( that seems fair to me, I can usually make it through two or three games on a hopper ) it would help with some of the rof cheating problems. I'm sorry, but you cant honestly believe that you have skill if you're dumping 1000 rounds a game.
First, 300-400 is not enough for a game if you play back. I could do 400 and I play front, but I usually like to take 3 140 pods(plus Halo of course) in a game just in case. 400 per player per game would not be nearly enough to have a fun game of speedball imo. Second, your saying that Dynasty or Russian Legion has no skill? Because I wouldn't doubt it if their back players dumped 1000 each a game. I can handle ramp or bounce. Let me be honest, if I'm going against people that I know have bouncing/ramping guns I turn down the db filter on my gun. If I'm playing with people that have legit guns I tune the bounce out. I keep myself on a level playing field, it works for me.

gc82000

09-17-2004, 08:11 PM

As for rate of fire. I think it will hit a plateau in nextcouple of months. Look many ppl ar having trouble getting the 20 bps limit, while a few others can shoot Z-Man style. But those are the select few, like pitchers in baseball. they are not limited on the speed they can throw. Why should ppl be limited to bps in tourneys.

As for paint limit I dont really think that will be required. Remember not all teams that go to tourneys are sponsred by paint manufacters, so they in turn might need to buy paint at full price. So it is as much as the team could afford.

on the point of wiping. Yes stiffer penalties should be in place. Name one sponsor that will sponsor a team that routinley gets Maxed or disqualified from tourneys. And it will all touble down hill from there.

fiforever

09-18-2004, 10:35 AM

Cheating Sucks. Unfortantly a lot of player resort to cheating. There are teams that no not wish to cheat. San Deigo Ravanous (A Pro X Ball Team) is a team that I can say Does not Cheat. I have had the honor of playing with them.

As for guns I say rate of fire is part of the game but not liimted to the game. I think pump games are so much better. I choose Accuracy over Rate of fire.

-Front Player

FallNAngel

09-18-2004, 10:46 AM

But those are the select few, like pitchers in baseball. they are not limited on the speed they can throw. Why should ppl be limited to bps in tourneys.

You're kidding right? I mean, I don't watch baseball all the time (actually never), but I know the object isn't to hit the person with the ball. The reason there may be a limit is for safety reasons.

09-18-2004, 11:25 AM

Cheating is never ok

Now, don't blame loosing to the other team on the amount of paint in the air.

Don't blaim losing on ramping boards. That's one of the most lame excuses I have ever heard..

Personally, I love the ramping dm4s and bounce. I used to run my timmy at no bounce, but I have grown to love the bounce, ramping.

When did AO cross 'ethics river' to the darkside? Cheating is Cheating wether you think the rule is stupid or not. This is a huge issue for me, you cant honestly tell me that a team does not have an advantage with more paint in the air. Its a fact and to argue otherwise is moronic. The whole idea behind a cheating board is to put more paint in the air and maintain higher ROF, an obvious advantage for the user.

If paintball ever becomes more than a game you will see rules inplace for markers simliar to cars in such venues as Nascar and the SCCA...

flyinasian016

09-18-2004, 11:29 AM

Lohman446

09-18-2004, 11:31 AM

Wait a moment, you took a "sound" bite out of that. Dont blame loosing on the amount of paint in the air was not condoning cheating. It was merely teh backlash for having to listen to "I lost because..." When loosing, change strategies, don't beg for rule changes.

Play to the edge of the rules - but don't cross them. Ramping is illegal, and should not be allowed. My trigger is close, but legal, one shot one pull. Thats the rule, and I think we should all abide by that as it is the rule for now. I don't like it, I think its stupid given current trends, and I think it causes as much overshooting as full auto would because players are so "trained" to shoot fast.

But I did not condone cheating.. I just get sick of listening to teams whine about why they lost coming off the field. Ackowledge why you lost, and adapt to overcome it, but don't whine.

09-18-2004, 11:43 AM

Ramping/Wiping/Bouncing, its all part of the game, . Its just part of the game, get used to it.

Wow,
this is f'ed up! That is all i can say. We can no longer play within the rules of the game so we cheat. Yea, paintball is a legit sport.... and going places...

So here is the problem:

But I did not condone cheating.. I just get sick of listening to teams whine about why they lost coming off the field. Ackowledge why you lost, and adapt to overcome it, but don't whine.

So how do you play a game aganist a team that is over the line and refs that refuse to acknowledge the rules?

What so screwed up about people in paintball is that very few do anything to make the sport better. How many guys promised to never buy a SP product, then a week later order a new shocker and post pics on AO? How many posts have we read in the last week about cheating, searching for morality, attempting to bait others into justifying thier own actions?

Futhermore this is what drives people away from paintball as well as message boards. Notice a decrease in content over the last few months?

Lohman446

09-18-2004, 11:51 AM

Wow,
this is f'ed up! That is all i can say. We can no longer play within the rules of the game so we cheat. Yea, paintball is a legit sport.... and going places...

So here is the problem:

So how do you play a game aganist a team that is over the line and refs that refuse to acknowledge the rules?

What so screwed up about people in paintball is that very few do anything to make the sport better. How many guys promised to never buy a SP product, then a week later order a new shocker and post pics on AO? How many posts have we read in the last week about cheating, searching for morality, attempting to bait others into justifying thier own actions?

Futhermore this is what drives people away from paintball as well as message boards. Notice a decrease in content over the last few months?

SP... well, your right and I am an example of it. When it was the news, and for about a year (not a week, if it matters which it doesnt) I refused to own an SP product, it was an easy sell to myself, I was happy with everything I had at the time. But when it came time to buy a new marker... well frankly to me the Shocker was a "best buy" - disputed by some but based on the attribute and price of the marker only I still beleive it. I'll give you that point.

How do you play against a team that cheats? Perhaps Im cheating to do it, perhaps its "friendly" refs, perhaps its respect that I feel my team has earned by not cheating... There is a team we play against, that our policy is to shoot until they call themselves out - this is in violation of overshooting rules I guess and might just be cheating. We have, on several occassions, watched them wipe hits, and the refs know this. Perhaps I'm trying to draw a gray line where there is a well defined one.

We loose to cheaters, often enough. We loose to teams that don't cheat as well. They are in the end, our teams failures to take out a player as many times as needed in order to assure they leave the field. A level playing field would be great, but lets be realistic.

In the end, I think all these "sponsorship" packages are partly to blame. We as players, feel we deserve sponsorships for simply playing even on a non-pro level. I see sponsored rookie/novice teams. Well I do not fault people for seeking these, what do you really do to deserve a sponsorship? I'm happy with the deals i have going, that are based nothing at all on my on field playing. I don't care if I win or loose, and my team understands this. I don't like loosing, Im not happy about it, but I'm not going to cheat (as I define it) to win. See that catch... perhaps I'm too arrogant to admit that I have gotten away with things I should not have - albeit with the refs approval.

RenagadeOfFunk

09-18-2004, 01:41 PM

Cheating is when you don't get caught...getting caught is failing to cheat...

-Master FunK

Curly

09-18-2004, 02:11 PM

Cheating is when you don't get caught...getting caught is failing to cheat...

-Master FunK

You want to elaborate on that a little bit?

trains are bad

09-18-2004, 02:14 PM

First, 300-400 is not enough for a game if you play back.

that's the whole point. You're gonna have to change your game. It'd make it totally different (better IMO). Remember, they only have that much paint too.Just think how you could move....

Evil Bob

09-18-2004, 02:22 PM

First, 300-400 is not enough for a game if you play back. I could do 400 and I play front, but I usually like to take 3 140 pods(plus Halo of course) in a game just in case. 400 per player per game would not be nearly enough to have a fun game of speedball imo. Second, your saying that Dynasty or Russian Legion has no skill? Because I wouldn't doubt it if their back players dumped 1000 each a game. I can handle ramp or bounce. Let me be honest, if I'm going against people that I know have bouncing/ramping guns I turn down the db filter on my gun. If I'm playing with people that have legit guns I tune the bounce out. I keep myself on a level playing field, it works for me.

Actually, I've played some limited paint games and they're quite fun, more movement, more muggings, less hunkering down and spray and pray. It requires more communication and coordination to win since you cant just sit and spray and pray your way through your eliminations.

Additionaly, most limited paint games I've played in allow for handing off full pods to other players, front guys can hand one off to the back men to give them a few more rounds to pin suckers down with while you run in and mug them.

gtrsi: You're 100% right, content here has dropped off the proverbial edge steadily over the past year, we're seeing more PBN regulars moving over here and posting in a similar vein.

-Evil Bob

trains are bad

09-18-2004, 02:27 PM

Evil Bob

09-18-2004, 02:31 PM

yeah all limited paint games I've played limited teams, so I always went hopperball or less and gave my pods to my back man.

The only reason paint limiting isn't standard is that fields make a lot of money on paint.

Yeah, thats the real sad part, fields dont make a killing on it, so they're not too keen on limiting paint. They're happy with the kiddies with the ramping boards that spray a couple cases a day, that's all money in the bank.

-Evil Bob

Curly

09-18-2004, 02:37 PM

Meh, limited paint is bad... When I played 7man I was shooting 13 pods a game as a back player.

Target Practice

09-18-2004, 03:17 PM

Ramping/Wiping/Bouncing, its all part of the game, if you dont like it, then go back to the woods or do it yourself.... Its just part of the game, get used to it.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the downfall of our sport.

You, my friend, need to stop playing the game. It is attitudes like yours that perpetuate the cycle of cheating in paintball. If you wiped against me, I would bonus ball you until Hell froze over, since that is the only thing you cowardly morons can understand. If you need to cheat, you are not worth the dirt you play on. Simple as that. You know, the whole "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" philosophy is great to teach to all the new blood getting into the sport.

"...go back to the woods..."? Screw you, dude. I bet I can count on my hands the times you have successfully played woodsball. If you were dropped into an outlaw night game, you'd probably piss yourself. Don't make fun of something you don't understand.

Finally, if you think that cheating is part of the game, thanks for ruining it for the rest of us. If you want to see some real players, we'll be on the "Don't Need To Cheat" field, having fun.

hAppy

09-18-2004, 03:48 PM

I agree with slipknot. I used to run my old timmy at debounce 10, but then i realized that in the tournament world debounce 10 doesnt cut it, so i lowered it so i oculd bounce. Ramping/Wiping/Bouncing, its all part of the game, if you dont like it, then go back to the woods or do it yourself. No matter what you say, nothing is going to change, not until someone gets seriously injured and they sue some company. Just play your style of play. Its just part of the game, get used to it.
So do you feel like a skilled player lasting the whole game by wiping? :rolleyes:

I mean if I whiped and shot full auto, I wouldn't feel very skilled. Hell in the back of my mind, I'd be crying over my lack of skill, and that I should quit and kill myself.

DarkRipper

09-18-2004, 04:02 PM

I'll never "get used to" someone cheating in this game. I will ALWAYS look down on a wiper. ALWAYS.

I had some fool tourney kid wipe my paint off his arm then bunker Cavemankevin the other day at Pevs... shot Caveman in the facemask so hard and so close that it split his lip.

If the TWiB played fairly, he'd have accepted that he had no game, taken my shot to his arm as an indication that he needs to learn how to play a bunker instead of shooting 30 bps for 10 seconds then reloading while old schoolers like me pop 3 rounds onto his exposed extremities...

I guess if all you do is wipe unless you're gogged 10 times at close range, you don't need skill in this sport anymore, huh?

Sad, pathetic. I'll continue to shoot the little ramping muppets regardless of how often they wipe...
You can't wipe a welt.

flyinasian016

09-18-2004, 06:29 PM

Did i ever say i wiped in my last post? Ok then..I just said i used a bouncy timmy. Ive wiped once, just because i saw the other guy wipe and i felt like making sure he was out.

I would bonus ball you until Hell froze over

Yeah, whats that going to do, just make the situation worse by pissing off the other player so he turns around and starts cussing and shooting at you and then the bad side of paintball is shown. Great Job, way to make things worse tard.

So what most of you guys are saying is that you dont need to cheat to win. Where are the legit teams that dont wipe,bounce,ramp in the NPPL, PSP, NXL etc.? I can tell you that they arent getting 1st through 3rd. Every team that does well in any events, has at least 1 person that has bounce, ramp, or wiped. Is that not true? Sure they may have gotten pulled for it, but they still did it. :cry: about it, your multi-page thread of how cheating is bad is not going to get you anywhere...

DarkRipper

09-18-2004, 06:52 PM

Get you where?

It's not like you get paid to play this game at the top levels. If players got basketball player salaries I could *ALMOST* see cheating to win, MAYBE.

As it is... forget it. It's pathetic, even with sponsors stressing on you to win. Oh no, you might actually have to pay for paint for once.

Personally, I prefer to keep my dignity and NOT wipe... that's right, I've NEVER wiped. I have also played NPPL ball as well as local.

penguinpunk555

09-18-2004, 07:15 PM

Suck it up and keep playing.

It is apart of the game, it won't stop.

ilikePB

09-18-2004, 09:24 PM

Actually, I've played some limited paint games and they're quite fun, more movement, more muggings, less hunkering down and spray and pray. It requires more communication and coordination to win since you cant just sit and spray and pray your way through your eliminations.

Additionaly, most limited paint games I've played in allow for handing off full pods to other players, front guys can hand one off to the back men to give them a few more rounds to pin suckers down with while you run in and mug them.

gtrsi: You're 100% right, content here has dropped off the proverbial edge steadily over the past year, we're seeing more PBN regulars moving over here and posting in a similar vein.

-Evil Bob
Actually I've played some limited paint games and it was a lot more boring then normal speedball imo. Also, I think it's a joke that a lot of you guys think that mass amounts of paint in the air and cheating take no skill. If they have such little skill why aren't you in the pro ranks of the NPPL? I'll tell you why, you would get owned hardcore. Playing with cheating and mass amounts of paint in the air do take skill, otherwise this thread wouldn't have started in the first place cause the cheating team would not have won. Having no paint limit and having the element of cheaters makes the game very hard. I wouldn't even think about stepping on the field with a team like Dynasty and pretend for one second that I'd be able to win. However, I can walk onto any woodsball field and know that I will do better than almost any of the players there. This isn't totaly directed at you, I just quoted you about the limited paint games specifically, just fyi.

hAppy

09-18-2004, 10:25 PM

Yeah, whats that going to do, just make the situation worse by pissing off the other player so he turns around and starts cussing and shooting at you and then the bad side of paintball is shown. Great Job, way to make things worse tard.

Poor argument. Two wrongs does not make a right, but a cheater is a cheater. If the cheater got mad at the guy, would it compensate for his cheating?

ilikePB

09-18-2004, 10:32 PM

If I remember correctly, bonus balling is also against the rules. So by bonus balling someone who whiped a hit you also become a cheater.

68magOwner

09-18-2004, 10:46 PM

personally, ive played against legal DM4's, and ramping DM4's and honestly, id prefer them to have the ramping board when laning, cuz the only difference it makes is that they run out of paint sooner, i mean, your not gonna get through a legal lane anyway at the speed most people can shoot today but snap shooting against those things is a pain in the *tush* but hey, what are you gonna do, im not paying $400 just to cheat, i would sooner pay $400 for more refs/ robots to catch cheaters

68magOwner

09-18-2004, 10:48 PM

If I remember correctly, bonus balling is also against the rules.

only at 1 of 3 local fields ;) my policy is that i dont whine about their whiping if they dont whine about my head hunting/bonus balling, both are "bad" things to do, they cant hurt me by wiping, it only means i get to shoot them again :mad:

AGDlover

09-18-2004, 11:21 PM

Cheaters suck. If you cheat, may you get hit by a bus.

ditto

SlipknotX556

09-18-2004, 11:38 PM

If I remember correctly, bonus balling is also against the rules. So by bonus balling someone who whiped a hit you also become a cheater.

Well, then iv cheated a millions times, a million times over. Bounce balling is part of the game, everyone has done it.

matt-o

09-18-2004, 11:55 PM

i think some of these pro-cheating guys just want an excuse for losing ;)

cheaters suck, when you dont play paintball by the rules it kills the chances of paintball going mainstream a little, and its just plain dishonorable

may i be the first to say it (unless i missed it before)

anyone who breaks the rules of paintball are dishonorable, no matter what their excuse

edit, and for the guy who said to quit if you dont like cheaters, why dont you quit if you dont like the rules of the game

edit (again) bonusball the heck out of all cheaters, then tell em thats why you did it after the game, maybe they'll grow some balls then, but dont bonusball fair players, thats is my policy on b-ballin

ilikePB

09-19-2004, 12:09 AM

Well, then iv cheated a millions times, a million times over. Bounce balling is part of the game, everyone has done it.
Yes I know, I bonus ball too. I was making a point though cause a guy said earlier that if someone wiped when he hit them that he would bonus ball them, but if he gets so angry at those who brake the rules then why is he braking rules by bonus balling. I know this is not a rule at all fields, but it is at some.

Bobbyboy

09-19-2004, 12:41 AM

edit, and for the guy who said to quit if you dont like cheaters, why dont you quit if you dont like the rules of the game

LMAO ohh good one. me likey. that deserves some dancing bannanas :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:

Evil Bob

09-19-2004, 12:45 PM

Actually I've played some limited paint games and it was a lot more boring then normal speedball imo. Also, I think it's a joke that a lot of you guys think that mass amounts of paint in the air and cheating take no skill. If they have such little skill why aren't you in the pro ranks of the NPPL? I'll tell you why, you would get owned hardcore. Playing with cheating and mass amounts of paint in the air do take skill, otherwise this thread wouldn't have started in the first place cause the cheating team would not have won. Having no paint limit and having the element of cheaters makes the game very hard. I wouldn't even think about stepping on the field with a team like Dynasty and pretend for one second that I'd be able to win. However, I can walk onto any woodsball field and know that I will do better than almost any of the players there. This isn't totaly directed at you, I just quoted you about the limited paint games specifically, just fyi.

There is no skill involved in just sitting and spraying paint, zero, a trained monkey can empty a loader at 20+ bps with today's cheater boards. Sitting down and not moving takes "zero" skill, you just sit there. You dont even need to get in tight with the bunker/inflatable if you're going to wipe whatever hits you... again, zero skill. The only skill that you're refering to is wiping away from the ref, which isn't hard, any 4 year old who's snuck a cookie from mom's cookie jar knows how to do this. If the ref thinks you are out, just argue that's it's splatter from the bunker and keep right on playing, odds are they'll sooner ignore you then deal with you over the matter of them being out since the reffing staff is just another player... again, zero skill necessary. Accuracy through volume takes zero skill other then not dumping all your balls on the ground.

If you're bored with a limited paint game, that tells me you're not moving, you're just sitting there "bored" because you're either low on or completely out of ammo and you can't spray everything in sight, and your meager skills dont include anything else in your arsonal other then sitting and spraying. Working with a limited amount of paint means you need to make your shots count instead of indescriminate spraying. Oh yeah, cheating takes sooooo much skill.... NOT. Sadly, it takes more skill to stay in a game with cheaters and NOT cheat then it does to play like they do. Having a no paint limit just means people sit on their butts and spray... that doesn't make it hard at all or a very skillful game, just very static. Everyone runs for their first bunker then sits there for 5 minutes spraying at the guys at the other end until there is a numerical advantage.... again not much skill needed there.

Who's to say that I wasn't a ranked pro player in the NPPL or NXL or any other league you can or cant think of? You have no clue as to who I have and have not played for or what I have done in my paintball career.

I dont play pro ball today not because I've been outclassed by today's primadonnas with all their cheater "skills", its as simple as it no longer being any fun to do so. As Tom posted, the average tourny player burns out after only a couple years on the circuit, and it usually comes down to the fact that the game is no longer fun, and when people stop having fun, they re-evaluate their reason for playing. There comes a time when you just plain get tired of the travel, living in hotels, dealing with airport security on trying to get your marker/gear on the plane, dealing with international shipping when your marker/gear doesnt arrive in time because the airlines wouldn't let you travel with it, trying to scrounge a spare marker the day of the event... the list goes on...

Robbo had an interesting idea one tourney not so long ago... he put together a team of what the rest of you younguns would term as "has beens" or "old farts", "grumpsters", "old timers", etc. and entered said team of old timers into a very noteable international tourney series for just the single weekend to prove a point. This team of old farts, for some crazy unfathomable reason to the younger crowd, won every game they played against the younger and more "athletic" teams, including some very noteable "pro" teams I might add and easily made the semi finals, at which point Robbo withdrew the team from the playing roster and allowed the next team in teh running to take it's place. Care to guess at all what the point was he was making?

-Evil Bob

dave_p

09-19-2004, 02:01 PM

well, some of the problem is that paintball allows children to play (and many adults who are still spoiled children). many of whom have never been taught honor or discipline. many whom suffer little consequense for their actions outside of paintball much less while playing.
the companies see you children as an endless stream of money and that is the only reason you are able to do all this, and why it wont change.

flame away. you will only be added to my ignore list because nothing you say or any well crafted argument meant to "own" me will mean a darn thing to me. if you are mad you are either a cheater, child, spoiled or all of the above. your little opinions are worthless to me.

the game is being ruined by spoiled children/adults and the companies who are fleecing them.

LaW

09-19-2004, 02:12 PM

I didnt read this thread because I have read comments on this subject thousands of times before. I do have to say that I was watching world cup on OLN for the first time and they made a comment on one of the players trying to wipe and that he did it poorly like he hasnt played in a long time. I couldnt believe how they just talked it out like oh thats what makes a good player, someone who can wipe and get away with it.

wispaintstyle

09-19-2004, 03:09 PM

I realy don't care about the rof issue. If they want high rof let them have it. What I care about is honor. When you're hit, you're hit. LEAVE THE FEILD!!!!! :mad: I play with honor, whether I have a stock gun, or a high end semi in my hands. Some days i get rolled, like at shatnerball when I decided that blue would look nice. Thats every sport, you can't win them all.

ilikePB

09-19-2004, 03:26 PM

Man this is ridiculous. So I shoot a lot of paint, that means I don't move? Why don't you tell that to the people I play against. I get to the friggin 50 everytime I can off the break. Get over yourself. I will now stop posting in this thread because it does no good. Paintball will continue like it is for a while because that's how the newer generation likes it and you won't change it. Good bye and have fun with your limited paint games.

matt-o

09-19-2004, 03:37 PM

Yes I know, I bonus ball too. I was making a point though cause a guy said earlier that if someone wiped when he hit them that he would bonus ball them, but if he gets so angry at those who brake the rules then why is he braking rules by bonus balling. I know this is not a rule at all fields, but it is at some.

the thing is that b-ballin dosnt improve your game, it kinda hurts your chances to do it if you think about it, its just the only real way i can think of to do more than just beat someone when they do something that lowers the level of the game (or screwing with people, if your evil)

also i think that when paintball gets onto tv people wont wipe as much in the pro ranks, cause its not like they can deny it when its on tvs everywhere, maybe the sponsors will man up and say that they dont want teams that cheat crapping on their name, after all, the high ranks are all about sponsorships.

and WOW i just looked at that site and the chips are 400$, add to that the paint cost, and is it really worth it to pay that much, just so you can beat honest people?

FallNAngel

09-19-2004, 04:21 PM

If the powers that be want to allow full-auto, ramping, bounce, etc on gun legally, that's fine. I'll play with or without it depending on how I feel at the time. If the rules are semi only and you're not playing semi-only, then you're cheating... simple as that. My point is, that the rules could be modified to allow it and the game would otherwise still have the same point... to eliminate the other players.

Wiping on the other hand is something completely different. Wiping a hit completely destroys the game. What's the point of playing if you have to wipe to win? Forget limited paint games, etc. What they need to do is crack down on wiping and playing on. If you're noticably playing on (say you go to bunker someone, get shot on the way there and you complete the run anyway) you and 2 teammates are out. If you're caught wiping, your team team forfeits that game, if it happens again in that tourney, your team is disqualified. Video footage will of players wiping / playing on should later be brought up and looked at and the situation reevaluated.

The reason so many people do it is because it's worth it. If they get caught wiping, the penalties for doing so are light. Make the penalty for wiping so massively horrid that they won't even think about it.

hAppy

09-19-2004, 05:14 PM

matt-o

09-19-2004, 09:59 PM

good idea! lets lynch the cheaters!
kidding of course

but yeah the penalties should be so rediculous and harsh that after they are in place we have threads like this complaining about them and saying that they are overkill. but they wouldnt be at all you see

at least for wiping, limit the paint to reduce overshooting/ramping/b-balling, plus it would make the game that much more complex, and therefore better IMO

SlartyBartFast

09-20-2004, 10:50 AM

:rolleyes:

The topic that will never die. The same dishonourable low lifes defending and justifying their need to cheat.

There's only one explaination/excuse for bending/breaking the rules:

"I'm a loser. I have no skill. I'm a dishonest piece of crap."

All those defending or justifying cheating, repeat the above out loud as many times as it takes for you to understand.

Want to stop cheating? Take a stand and start with yourself. Instead of being low-lifes and justifying your regretable behaviour, how about offering some solutions.

Tired of losing to cheaters, start demanding that refs do their jobs. Attend, support, and promote events based on thier organisation and professionalism instead of the prize package.

As spectators, call out the cheaters.

wolfwood_is_here

09-20-2004, 12:15 PM

Ok, if you don't play by any rules, you got nothing to say about people b-balling. That does not make it right, but you have no place saying anything about others when you are the reason in the first place. Cheaters have a double standard, where the rules don't apply to them, but everyone else, so everyone else has to follow the rules, but they do not have to. And if somene calls them on it they just find some way to insult them and attempt to make themselves better.

I have no need to cheat because it makes games go faster. How can I learn if a certain tactic is good or not if I can't start over again? If what you were planning didn't go well, and you get marked, go out and while the game finishes refine your tactics and rest up for the next game, which is usually not more than a couple minutes away. I find that games where everybody plays fair actually go faster, which means more games and more attempts to find that perfect formation or whatever.

On the note of content, I apologize for my misgivings, but we still have to band together and know that the more we fight amongst ourselves, the worse it looks to people outside the sport who have an even smaller understanding. So, what does that mean? People will always cheat if they think it will help them, it is an easy out. I regret the one time I have ever wiped during a recball game, and I had called myself out a little bit afterwards because I felt so bad and realized that winning had meant that I had to compromise what I wanted.

So, until people realize that cheating is an easy out, and that it is better to deal with the struggle, they will cheat.

It is the triumph over struggle that makes us stronger.

Tyger

09-20-2004, 06:02 PM

Until cheating is no longer rewarded, players will cheat.

Until the people that play are removed from the rulemaking process, cheating will be encouraged and rewarded.

And until the players are removed from the referee pool, cheaters will ref for cheaters.

-Tyger

LaW

09-20-2004, 06:11 PM

hitech

09-20-2004, 06:12 PM

The reason so many people do it is because it's worth it. If they get caught wiping, the penalties for doing so are light. Make the penalty for wiping so massively horrid that they won't even think about it.

I've played in tournaments like that. The problem with a penalty like that is the refs will NEVER call it. It's to big and it's very hard to find a ref that will through a team out of a tounrament. Because that is what a massive penality does.

FallNAngel

09-20-2004, 07:35 PM

I've played in tournaments like that. The problem with a penalty like that is the refs will NEVER call it. It's to big and it's very hard to find a ref that will through a team out of a tounrament. Because that is what a massive penality does.

So what's so bad / wrong about making wiping a massive offense?!

Toxic Dave

09-20-2004, 10:41 PM

You want an example of the "incredibly harsh penalties won't be enforced" concept. Last year we were reffing a college tournament at a local field, which I do any chance I get because the teams play very fair for the most part and are easy to deal with. In conversation with the Capt. of one of the military acadamies he assured me that no one would cheat on thier team, because if they were penalised they would be kicked out of school for for violating their honor code, and he was very serious about it.

Game time comes around, and a guy on their team gets hit and plays on..nothing huge, he spun on a guy that was bunkering him, happens all the time and it should have been called a 1 for 1. The ref in the area asked me to verify the call and I turned him down, they were losing the game anyway, and nothing points-wise was affected. No harm at all.

Here's a fact I am not going to make a call that is going to have a senior in one of the finest learning institutions on earth be expelled because he spun on a dude who bunkered him out of sheer reaction, he wasn't malicious at all in his intent. You can call me a cheater or a bad person, but I'm not making that call.

The solution to the problem is standardised rules in every league/ event, that were enforced in an even manner for each event. A crew of professional refs is not financially viable for any of the major series at this point, and even then their abilities are not always up to snuff. Reffing sucks to do, no matter how much it pays within reason.

dave

paullus99

09-21-2004, 10:40 AM

I had a very interesting discussion this weekend with a real old school tourney player (from the mid-80's till today). He had just decided to really cut back on his tourney play & actually start playing scenarios after playing in his first just recently.

What he said boiled down to this - "After a while, I realized that I HATED tournament players - hated the other team, my team, all the BS that goes along with it. Back in the old days, teams would set up camp, talk to one another, swap stories & have a good time. All of that has changed & its just not fun anymore - its turned into a business, where winning and the money are the only reasons these guys come out anymore."

He said it as good as anyone could - when it stops being about the game & only about getting that last win, no matter what, what point is there left in playing??????

I happy to say that this old-school baller has found a new home in the scenario world & he's having a blast everytime he walks on to the field.

hitech

09-21-2004, 12:17 PM

So what's so bad / wrong about making wiping a massive offense?!

Because a rule that is never enforced is worthless.

Cryer

09-21-2004, 01:19 PM

I hate paintball :mad:

FallNAngel

09-21-2004, 01:32 PM

Because a rule that is never enforced is worthless.

So, then perhaps the refs should start enforcing it...

wolfwood_is_here

09-21-2004, 01:36 PM

Hating the sport is a little extreme. It is like a quote where I work:

It is not about being right, it is about getting it right.

So, no matter who is right or wrong, it is when we foul a good sport that we need to re-evaluate our priorities. It is like professional sports. I almost applauded when the USA basketball team lost in the Olympics because they are overpaid and do not even have that great of skill, yet have the attitude as if they are the top dogs. I mean, they got beat by teams that have no national league, no salary even close to what the NBA players have, yet for some reason those teams played a lot better.

So, it may not be completely accurate of an analogy, but in professional sports like that, there are people that play for the money, and they cheat. When you get caught it is called a foul. Sure, even the good players may break a rule, coaches often tell you to draw a foul instead of giving them an easy shot. But the difference lies in what you are doing when you are NOT cheating. If you need cheating to win, then obviously your skill when not cheating isn't good enough, and you will always have to cheat, and you will not get better at anything other than cheating.

If you don't cheat and lose, it could be because your skill is not good enough either, or just the fact you will not compromise your own values and cheat. But you can admit that. You can get better at playing because that is what you are doing.

Be a player, not a cheater. Simple.

desslock

09-21-2004, 04:24 PM

whipping a hit is cheating plain and simple. Any hit on any part of your body or gear/gun the diameter of a quarter or larger is considered an elimination, if you cheat the other player out of his/her elimination by wipping the hit then you are cheating. Is there cheating at pro level and am level tournies you bet, there is even cheating in woodsball. Is there cheating in major sports? You bet, does it make it right? Nope, people cheat everyday, on their taxes, taking naps on company time cheating on their spouses etc. pball is just one more area in life that allows people to cheat. If you cheat you are just feeding a cycle of dishonest practices, yeah you may never get caught and you and your team might even stand in the winners circle, but if you had to cheat to win you are not winners you are cheaters and thats the cold hard truth. So suck on that one cheaters of the world, just realize that you will never truly enjoy your hollow victories.

Lohman446

09-21-2004, 06:51 PM

I play tournaments, and frankly the cheating while it annoys me, is not as big a deal to me.

I'm going to get beaten, and frankly often by teams that don't cheat, or don't need to cheat to beat me. I freely admit I'm not that good, and as good as my team is, they can only overcome my lacking of skill to a certain level. But paintball to me, comes down to something else.

Winning is nice, its fun, I enjoy it, don't get me wrong. But I could go on my tournament schedule for the rest of the year, never win a game, and personally not really care. I don't go to win, I go to play, to have fun, and for the friendships I have involving paintball. You might cheat me, but you can't take my enjoyment away from me.

The fact is, I still wander from team to team, and talk with the friends I have made on other teams. I talk to the refs, the promoters, etc. and I have fun. My score on the field doesn't really matter.

I have taken that victory away from those that cheat. I am happy with my sponsorhips, I dont have to bow down to hunt down more. I am not hunting sponsors, I don't have to win. Oh, and we can have more fun, given my team generally outweights every other team by at least three hundred pounds... it can be fun.

I watched a team cheat against us, against another team, and then hang the flag on us. As they did one of my teammates looked at him, smiled, and said, quite audibly "look, theres the team that cheats". He looked at us, smiled, said good game, and walked away. I don't condone cheating, but you know what, Im not going to let it ruin my fun, in fact it can often enough be quite fun.