Closed Bolt VS Open

[Automaggot68]

Alright.
Recently, a fellow Aoer and myself (magmanl337) and I have gotten into an argument.
He says that Close bolt markers are more accurate than open bolt ones.
I say it doesn't matter, there are too many variables, and that only weather and PTB match is key.

I'm too damned lazy to do a search, so please, flame him--not me.



(Mark, you're going DOWN)

[quik]

Hey did you know my spyder was closed bolt?


Doesnt matter, if indeed closed bolt guns do shoot straighter? Doesnt matter becuase most already think that anyways.

[magmanl337]

closed bolt spyder? never kne that spyders were closed...

[Blazestorm]

My cyborg is more accurate then everything because there are ninjas that hop on each ball inside of the chamber and guide the ball to the target.

That's why it's called the "Ninja Borg"

WEeeee

[t33kyboy]

Closed bolt... Open bolt... doesnt matter. Barrel, Paint, Consistency, and stuff like that effect accuracy, not if its open or closed bolt.

[LaW]

cockers own j00 :wow:

[magmanl337]

Closed bolt... Open bolt... doesnt matter. Barrel, Paint, Consistency, and stuff like that effect accuracy, not if its open or closed bolt.


Then why do cockers appear to be more accurate?

Open bolts touch the ball and pushes it forward on its out the barrel, this causes awkward spins and affects accuracy. Closed bolts move backwards and do not push the ball on its way out the barrel. Who is right? Are closed bolt guns more accurate?

[t33kyboy]

You guys should make a bet for some money or somthing. Make this a little interesting :headbang:

[Army]

There have been numerous exhaustive tests about this over the years, not only here by AGD under fairly strict scientific standards, but by WGP, WARPIG, WDP, and yes, even Kingman. The conclusion?

No difference in accuracy, or performance.

The tiny bit of movement given a ball by a slight bump from the forward moving bolt, is negated by the blast of air, and the resistence in the barrel. If you ball is rolling out the barrel from the bolt bump....your barrel is too big, or paint too small.

[CaliMagFan]

this debate is a can of worms and has raged many times in many ways... From what i know the common idea is that it makes no difference open or closed bolt since both breeches or bolts are essentiall closed at the time of firing... and any movement the ball pick up from the bolt in an open bolt system is almost instantly overidden by the ball's contact with teh barrel.... end of my story

-kyro

[Rift]

There have been numerous exhaustive tests about this over the years, not only here by AGD under fairly strict scientific standards, but by WGP, WARPIG, WDP, and yes, even Kingman. The conclusion?

No difference in accuracy, or performance.

The tiny bit of movement given a ball by a slight bump from the forward moving bolt, is negated by the blast of air, and the resistence in the barrel. If you ball is rolling out the barrel from the bolt bump....your barrel is too big, or paint too small.


thanks you! :clap:

[Automaggot68]

Mark!
You owe me lunch!

[magmanl337]

Quick! Everyone Change their posts so i dont ahve to buy derek lunch! HURRY!!!!

[VFX_Fenix]

Then why do cockers appear to be more accurate?

Open bolts touch the ball and pushes it forward on its out the barrel, this causes awkward spins and affects accuracy. Closed bolts move backwards and do not push the ball on its way out the barrel. Who is right? Are closed bolt guns more accurate?

Its just that, appearance.

There's more to accuracy than just bolt position before firing. Consider for a momment the condition of an Autococker shooting a very long fast string (say with an eblade or something). This condition is hardly different than an open bolt ramming the ball into battery and firing.

An Autococker has a few things going for it that help in it's accuracy. The biggest thing the Autococker has going for it is that they require a good paint to barrel match to eliminate roll-out. For one reason or another they also seem to have relatively low recoil compaired to blowback markers. Shot to shot muzzle velocity consistancy, which comes from good paint/barrel match and a good regulator. Just a few things, but mostly its just good'ol Cocker Fairies (kidding).

Things that help with consistancy and recoil:
Heavy barrels/markers - These reduce felt recoil by providing more intertia to the marker
Light trigger pulls - removes some of the elements of shooting technique that heavier triggers tend to cause. Most notably pushing with the palm and jerking with the trigger finger.
Good regulators - If a reg is used, the faster it recharges and consistant it is, the better
Paint - Paint that's about as close to "perfect" as it can be (no dimples, no seam, and round)
Good barrel - If the barrel's drilled straight, it'll shoot straight.
Paint/Barrel match - Having a good match provides a fair ammount of flexibility in varying ball sizes with similar muzzle velocities vs. a barrel that's JUST small enough to get the largest ball in the batch stuck but let all the others roll out.

Part of the "Closed Bolt is more accurate that Open Bolt" argument stems from WAY back in the good'ol days when people noticed that Cockers seemed to be shooting a lot better than other semis. This is a thought that's been propogated through paintball culture and now its an "accepted fact" that its so. WARPIG did test this and found nothing changed in accuracy between an open bolt and closed bolt variant of the same gun.

I've proven it in my own back yard with my Angel vs. my Cocker with the Cocker printing a 4x7 grouping and my angel printing a 5x5. With today's markers, it's just a question of quality of gear, not necesarily style of marker. I'd be willing to put big bucks on the table and say that an AC will be beaten in an accuracy test by a Tippmann M98 Custom.

[breg]

I've had this argument, and well, it gets a little old and in the end you can't change the hype. Might as well just let him think what he wants to. But there is no way to tell people that the real factor in dealing with accuracy in the little alien micro chip implanted into my right iris...

[gc82000]

Hey did you know my spyder was closed bolt?




Wow is it? :eek:
I am in shock. :rolleyes:
How did you get that? :confused:
Last I heard it was open bolt blow back. But what do I know. :ninja:

[Deep Sixx]

There's no difference. BTW... did you know that ALL markers fire from the closed-bolt position? The position of the bolt before you pull the trigger is irrelevant.

sixx

[Mosfet]

Actually, there is a difference.
Closed bolt markers come with gnomes that help with the accuracy.
Open bolt markers are gnomeless.

DUH! :rolleyes:

[Chronobreak]

elves > gnomes

[Wc Keep]

i have one for you guys. whats more accurate a mag barrel or a cocker barrel?

heres my take. i think the twist lock is great, but its not as good as a cocker barrel. the threading on the cocker barrels allow it to move less during the firing process. just my take on it. a friend of mine noticed the same thing when he went from a ss no rise to a ule body.

[Mosfet]

hmm... I might have my fauna mixed around?
Now I'm not sure if they were closed bolt gnomes, closed bolt elves, or closed bolt fairies!
:(

Either way, Open Bolt markers don't have em.

[Steelrat]

I just like the way that closed bolt markers "feel" when they fire.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

Another part of it maybe be the timing of it all. With a closed bolt marker, the ball is fired, then everything starts moving. But it is the oppisite with an open bolt. I dont think it adds much, but meh...

[Steelrat]

Whats odd is that closed bolt firearms are generally considered to be more accurate than open bolt ones. I suspect that bullets tend to have much higher tolerances than paintballs, so you can readily observe the advantages of closed bolt firing in that application. Paintballs, and the firing of paintballs, may have too many variables to give closed bolt firing any advantage.

[Mosfet]

This argument is soo old.
Theres been plenty of tests that show that the only reason a closed bolt marker seems to be more accurate than an open bolt marker is the fact that the majority of movement on the marker is done after the firing on a closed bolt, versus before and after on an open bolt.

Clamp both markers down and they are just as accurate.

Its like saying a marker with more kick is less accurate than a marker with no kick at all.
Bolt them both down and see what happens.

[LeatherPants]

Here's my input.

I've owned 6 cockers. The last couple E Blades. This is one this that you guys need to consider.

We all know that at rest a cocker chambers a ball past the detents just sitting in the barrel. Now we also know that this is the reason why lots of people experience the first ball rolling out of the barrel if the match is not correct.

Many times in between shooting a ball is chambered and "pushed" forward and many times away from the bolt even as far as half way up the barrel. When this happens the next shot is a low shot. Since the ball is not against the bolt it does not get the initial full blast of air.

Now all markers load the ball forward and all can "push" a ball down the barrel but the difference is that on open bolt markers when the bolt goes forward the marker fires at the same time.

On a cocker bolt goes back, bolt goes forward, then the marker fires when the hammer is released. That spilt second can allow the ball to roll forward.

Now on E Blades or Race frames the load time and firing time is shorter which honestly makes it closer to an open bolt. The only real "closed bolt" shot is the first shot on a Cocker.

Ok no idea what I just said...rant. :confused:

[White_Noise]

"On a cocker bolt goes back, bolt goes forward, then the marker fires when the hammer is released. That spilt second can allow the ball to roll forward.

Now on E Blades or Race frames the load time and firing time is shorter which honestly makes it closer to an open bolt. The only real "closed bolt" shot is the first shot on a Cocker. "


incorrect...when an autococker is cocked and has a ball in the breech, the bolt is in the forward position, when the trigger is pulled, the valve opens, and air pushes the ball out the barrel. then air is redirected into pushing the bolt back, a ball enters the breech and the bolt closes in the forward position again.

on an open bolt marker, say a spyder, the bolt is in the back position when it is cocked and ready to fire. when the trigger is pulled, it releases the hammer and bolt at the same time. as the bolt moves forward, air begins to come out of the bolt and pushes the ball down the barrel. once the bolt is fully forward, air pushes back on the hammer and recocks the marker.

[1ofkind]

I saw it all has to do with e barrel's inner surface. It its anything really smooth you'll get straight shots. Try it and you'll see ;)

[magmanl337]

Can i just get 5 ppl to say that im right, so i dont ahve to buy derek pizza on sat?!?!?!!?


Save mE!!!!!

[Evil Bob]

Sorry magman, you're buying pizza.

The whole closed bolt/open bolt debate only applies to the first round out of the barrel, once you go into rapid fire it doesn't matter one bit which system you're using, as the ball never has any time to actually come to rest before it's fired out the barrel.

In the world of real weapons, closed bolt rifles are more accurate at long range shooting due to the fact that the chambering process affects the point of aim as it slams forward and loads the first round. Most of your open bolt firearms are squad automatic weapons designed to spray and pray (m60, m240, mg40/42, etc.). Take an m16, which fires from closed bolt, and put it into full auto and you'll have a real hard time trying to hit a human sized target at 300 meters.

This also applies to paintball but on a lesser degree (vastly scaled down) since paintballs are fairly inaccurate by their design (light weight, deformable surface, etc.) in the first place.

Again, this is only on a single shot basis. The more stuff you have slamming back and forth inside your marker rapidly, the more your point of aim will be affected. It comes down to weight and mass and basic physics. Extremely light weight markers suffer the most from reciprical operation which results in the marker bouncing back and forth as the hammer/bolt group slams back and forth in the firing operation, that very same action is used by many folks to sweet spot their triggers, ie "bounce", you pull the trigger and keep it in the same location and let the marker do the rest. This type of bounce will affect your point of aim, add to that the inaccuracies with the paintball itself... accuracy through volume.

-Evil Bob

[Lohman446]

In steady firing positions (read vices) it has been proven that closed bolt is not more accurate.

HOwever, if you are in fact getting more accuracy from one type of marker than the otehr in hand held situations, by all means use it. This is not to say that closed bolt is more accurate or anything, its just sometimes a number of variables coincide to make one marker more functionally (as in not in a vice) accurate than teh other

[Miscue]

No paintball gun is accurate. This is why we have force feed loaders and super-electros.

[Lohman446]

No paintball gun is accurate. This is why we have force feed loaders and super-electros.


The FN303? less lethal launcher? How about no .68 caliper 3 gram projectile is accurate outside of a vacuum?

[magmanl337]

If i were to shoot 1 shot outta a closed bolt gun, and 1 shot outta a open bolt gun, which would be more accurate?

[t33kyboy]

Give up.

[tru_flip56]

ahhh what the hell......Magman's right :dance: ;)

[Lohman446]

If i were to shoot 1 shot outta a closed bolt gun, and 1 shot outta a open bolt gun, which would be more accurate?

Depends... under scientific conditions, given everything else being equal neither gun would be more accurate

[magmanl337]

*Cries* Derek, what do you want on that pizza? :cry:

[Destructo6]

This whole debate seems to be a carry over from submachineguns and the early days of semis.

An open bolt blowback subgun (ie STEn) needs a very heavy bolt to keep it closed until chamber pressures reach a safe level. The downside is that when the heavy bolt is released, it tends to throw the weapon off target. Equal and opposite reaction and all.

A closed bolt blowback subgun (ie MP5) only has the lightweight hammer moving at the beginning of the firing cycle.

The early days of blowback semis (ie VM68) seemed to bear out the same findings in paintguns. Compared to an Autococker, the VM68 moved around a lot during the firing cycle.

Nowdays, with ultra-lightweight reciprocating assemblies found in most of the open bolt guns, there is probably no difference at all.

But, it's always fun to perpetuate the Autococker mystique.

[LeatherPants]

"On a cocker bolt goes back, bolt goes forward, then the marker fires when the hammer is released. That spilt second can allow the ball to roll forward.

Now on E Blades or Race frames the load time and firing time is shorter which honestly makes it closer to an open bolt. The only real "closed bolt" shot is the first shot on a Cocker. "


incorrect...when an autococker is cocked and has a ball in the breech, the bolt is in the forward position, when the trigger is pulled, the valve opens, and air pushes the ball out the barrel. then air is redirected into pushing the bolt back, a ball enters the breech and the bolt closes in the forward position again.

on an open bolt marker, say a spyder, the bolt is in the back position when it is cocked and ready to fire. when the trigger is pulled, it releases the hammer and bolt at the same time. as the bolt moves forward, air begins to come out of the bolt and pushes the ball down the barrel. once the bolt is fully forward, air pushes back on the hammer and recocks the marker.


incorrect...when the trigger is pulled the first action is the sear releases the hammer. The hammer going forward hits the valve firing the ball. From that point the ram is pushed back then forward loading and cocking the marker.

bolt goes back bolt goes forward....then it can be fired and the action starts again.

[Mosfet]

And don't forget that with markers firing 12bps+ theres going to be no noticable diff between closed and open.

except the faries... Closed bolt still come with faries...
pretty much useless faries... but faries none the less...
:ninja: