Dirty Dan's "The Different Diameter Conspiracy"

[Kodiak]

This is a link >>>>Dirty Dan's "The Different Diameter Conspiracy" (http://durtydan.paintballresource.org/www.durtydan.com/ddrar/diffdiam.html)<<<<

THE DIFFERENT DIAMETER CONSPIRACY

What REALLY bugs me is the "requirement" to have different sizes of paint and different sizes of barrel diameters. The rather flawed theory is that you MUST match the diameter of the paint to the inner diameter of the barrel to improve performance. This is what I have coined the Different Diameter Conspiracy. This practice is completely unnecessary. Here's why.

IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER

So long as the paint doesn't roll out the barrel before you fire it and it feeds properly, your barrel inner diameter has little to do with the performance of the paintball. I've been playing since 1984 and I have yet to find any SCIENTIFIC data to the contrary. (Advertisements and claims by manufacturers are NOT scientific data.) I've also consulted with reputable airsmiths. They say the same thing. Matching paint to barrel diameters is not required. Really. Trust me. I wouldn't lie to you, I'm not very good at it. I've done my own testing. I've tried different inner bore sizes,

* of the SAME barrel brand and configuration (i.e. porting, material, length, etc -- with the exception of inner diameter);

* on the SAME marker;

* with the SAME paint;

* at the SAME velocity.

Here's the result: other than the fact I had to adjust velocity when I changed barrels, there wasn't ANY difference in range or accuracy. (The larger the paint, or smaller the bore the more friction you get, therefore it affects the velocity, but that's a matter of a simple adjustment.)

You are now thinking, "Why is there no difference, Dan?"

Simple. When the ball is fired, it gets compressed and it fits the barrel perfectly. You get a perfect seal. I base this theory on the fact that several experienced airsmiths have told me this happens. So therefore there's no real need to match the paint and barrel diameters. Add to this the inherent inaccuracy of a paintball and the fact that most players launch clouds of paint at their opponents -- it really makes this practice of matching barrels to paint (for the purposes of accuracy and gas efficiency) absolutely unessential.

Anybody who tell you otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about. Or they DO know otherwise -- but they want you to buy their barrels.

IN THE PERFECT WORLD

Let's pretend that we live in a Perfect World and that matching the paint to the barrel actually made a difference. This difference would be so minor as to be insignificant. This is a product of two factors.

One: The paintball is a round, liquid-filled projectile with a flexible outer shell which makes it very unstable.

Two: The very low velocity (under 300 feet per second) of a paintball marker also makes the paintball very ballistically inefficient.

These two factors will negate any improvements on the fit of the paintball in the barrel. This isn't based on theory, it is based on the SCIENCE of ballistics. As a trained firearms instructor and sniper I had to have extensive knowledge of ballistics, so I know what I'm talking about.

So let's say (for the sake of arguement) that I don't know what I'm talking about and matching paint and barrels IS important. If you still feel the need to believe that matching paint to the barrel IS important ask yourself something.

If this is really a big deal why then aren't there industry standards for ball outer diameters and barrel inner diameters?

If it really makes a difference, why aren't the manufacturers of these products spending some time and money to standardize all of this?

They have the time and money to develop new fill and shell colours and new porting patterns and plating materials, don't they? I mean why is it up to the player to fix this problem?

JUST THE FACTS

Whatever you believe matching paint to your barrel is true is not the important issue. It all boils down to one fact. That fact is that the ONLY reason why you have to have different barrels (of different inner diameters) is because the paintball companies and barrel makers can't get their collective acts together (or don't care to) and make a paintball that is SIXTY EIGHT calibre. You get big bore and small bore and medium bore and medium-large bore and small-medium bore and small-large bore . . .

A long time ago (more than a decade) the industry settled on .68 caliber for paintballs and barrels. At the time there were two calibers to be had. .68 and .62. It was found that .62 caliber paintballs performed better and were more accurate. But .68 became the industry standard. Why? It had nothing to do with the performance, or weight, or anything else scientific or technical.

It had everything to do with the fact that .68 inches is exactly 11/16 of an inch. A standard machine and tool making industry size for drill bits, bores, punches, etc. That's it. Mere convenience of manufacturing.

So now ask yourself why this standard can't be met? It was set over ten years ago.

Why does the Different Diameter Conspiracy exist? Whose fault is it? The manufacturers of the barrels or the paint? Further investigation on this produced a rather interesting finding.

Paint manufacturers are saying, "We make paint different diameters because barrels come in different inner diameters". (I know they're saying this because I asked.) At the same time, barrel manufacturers are saying, "We make different inner diameters because they make paint in different diameters". ( I know they're saying this because I asked.)

So what I deduce from this is that the Different Diameter Conspiracy exists for one of two reasons.

One: It is being done deliberately to make paint and barrel manufacturers more money.

Two: If not deliberate, it is a result of a definite lack of coordination and communication.

It doesn't matter which one is the REAL reason, really; both reasons are equally unacceptable.

Barrel and paintball manufacturers also say that consumers are asking for different diameters. The market demand is no excuse because it rises directly from players not knowing that matching paint to your barrel doesn't matter. Through no fault of their own, but from what they read from "experts" (who you never heard of before they wrote the article) and from what other misinformed players are saying. The techno-propaganda is telling you that you HAVE to have the barrel and paint match and this has resulted in players spending money NEEDLESSLY. While this misinformation is not intentional, it adds to the Different Diameter Conspiracy.

Well, the industry isn't about to fix the problem for us. At one time I thought that the industry needed to stop the Different Diameter Conspiracy. I thought that they should make all the barrels, from here on in SIXTY EIGHT CALIBRE and all the paintballs SIXTY EIGHT CALIBRE. However, the players have the power to fix the problem themselves.

THE DURTY DAN FIX

First off, players have to stop buying into the hype. I am no longer a victim of the Different Diameter Conspiracy. I have found what some players in our club call the Durty Dan Fix.

I buy large bore barrels. Yeah, small bore paint will roll out of the barrel -- or will it? On my open-bolt semis the anti-double feed will prevent barrel roll out. On my pumps and closed bolt semis, I got one of those aftermarket extensions that attaches to the marker where the barrel goes and the barrel is inserted into the extension. These little extensions have a smaller inner diameter to hold the ball in the barrel and prevent roll out when the bolt chambers a ball.

(For models that do not have this aftermarket accessory -- like my 68 Special -- I had them custom made by an airsmith for under $30.00. Far less than the price of a second barrel.)

So now I can have ONE barrel for each of my markers and I can shoot ANY paint that's available to me. I've used different brands each of Zap, Diabolo, R.P, and 32 Degrees and so far all paint has performed equally well.

The Different Diameter Conspiracy: I'm not one to point fingers but does anybody smell a rat here besides me?

[Blazestorm]

Sounds like a plan.

I've matched paint and the only thing it did was cause more barrel breaks... :tard:

Time to buy a CP 1 peice at .693 bore...

:D!

[DiSoRdeR]

I do not match paint to my barrel, If it doesnt roll out of the barrel its a good sized paint. I have never bought a barrel kit or ever will, when ever I buy a new marker I buy one barrel I like for it. Buy some paint that doesnt roll out the barrel, and play some paintball.

[Chronobreak]

you guys own more than 1 singloe bore barrel? lol...suckers :p im all for better standards :cheers:

[vf-xx]

You make some very good points, but what about paint/bore match's effect on efficency? I'll agree that the match doesn't effect range or accuracy (presuming your listed constants).

I'll admit that I haven't done any specific testing, however my schooling in mechanical engineering would lead me to beleive that matching bore to paint will increase efficency. Yes a paintball will deform to match the barrel, however there is a limit as to how far the paintball wants to expand. Bores under this size should - in theory - cause more friction and require more energy to fire - hence less efficency. Bores larger than optimum should allow leakage which again decreases efficency.

Is this difference real and if so by how much? I don't know, I haven't tested.

(or maybe this is just my justification of owning a barrel kit, I really don't know)

[Blazestorm]

If you have an inefficient gun I guess it would make sense.

But my borg gets around 1500 shots off a 45/4500 with matched paint, I'll get like 1400 with unmatched? lol :D

Plus I only shoot 2 pods a game max, so if I get 500 shots off my tank I'm happy.

I do own a barrel-kit, I plan to sell them all and buy a couple of CP barrels. :D

[teufelhunden]

Been sayin this for a while ;)

[Carbon]

well there is such a thing as comfort food. I suppose barrel kits are comfort equipment.

[CaliMagFan]

my question to 'dirty dan is this:

if:

"Here's the result: other than the fact I had to adjust velocity when I changed barrels, there wasn't ANY difference in range or accuracy. (The larger the paint, or smaller the bore the more friction you get, therefore it affects the velocity, but that's a matter of a simple adjustment.) "


then how is this possible? :

"...it really makes this practice of matching barrels to paint (for the purposes of accuracy and gas efficiency) absolutely unessential. "


ummm.. dan... hello... you just cranked up the velocity on your marker to shoot the same 300 fps you were shooting at a lower setting on the same marker... how is that negating the theory of gas efficiency...


i dont know where people come up with this nonsense...

-kyro

[RTDynaflow]

Please, jump in here and slap me around if my logic is flawed....

You are correct vf-xx. The simple fact you need to change your regulator to fix velocity is evidence enough to conclude that paint-barrel match can directly effect efficiency. How much? If I had money and time I would give you guys an answer, however I don't. Not by a lot, I would bet.

What bothers me is that several tests done by Bill Mill and his team show otherwise. Granted, not by any means enough to really make a difference. Last I checked we didn't have tournaments over who can hit my pinky at 100 yards... they tend to be, who can throw 20 pods of paint the fastest. There are more factors to consider then the obvious. Is a .679 paintball in a .695 barrel going to shoot the same as a .688 in a .689? Doubtful. Will it be a difference enough to justify spending an extra 100 on it? Thats for you to decide.

Me? Well, no, I wouldn't buy it. That is, if the only thing the kit was good for was matching paint. However, lots of them have several other factors that set them apart. How well does it shoot clean? How does it look? How does it shoot (as a barrel, not a paint match)? How much does it weigh? How does it look after I drop it for the fiftieth time? How well does the barrel kit line up? Does it fit snug? Is it loud? And finally, Can I live with myself if I contribute to this companies sales? What kind of company am I buying from... If I have a problem do I talk to the machinist who did my barrel, or a customer service agent who really doesn't give a (edit- I will let you decide what word you want read..) about me and my problem...

If you buy any old kit because it can match paint you are nothing more then a mere tool. Do you want to be a tool? Does hype taste good? Or does it taste like cheap wal-mart paint?

[RTDynaflow]

Something else, if you have a small bore barrel, and a large bore paint, you will break a lot more balls. There is more reasons to buy a barrel kit then simply "perfect paint-barrel match will let you shoot darts!"... It's just not that simple.

[Army]

Dans theory doesn't jibe when the paint is too big to even get into the chamber.

AGD has done enough tests about this to make all of Dans thoughts moot. The Ball does NOT conform to the barrel interior, rather it only touches at two points all the way out. You can prove this yourself with some baby powder dusted inside a barrel, and shoot a ball. Look for the two lines etched in the powder, that's the only place the ball touched. That's also why rifled barrels don't work in paintball.

Dan made this hypothesis in the "day", before real testing was done (and most of that by AGD). I like Dan, but he needs to update the info on his site,

[RTDynaflow]

^^^^^

Smart man. He speaks wisdom and intelligence. Listen to the man... He speaks of another man, a Tom Kaye - who did do ballistics and has years in PB. I speak of a Bill Mi - owner of warpig. He as well as done numerous tests on barrels and different sized bores. It does make a difference. I will look up the webpage later...

In anycase, I still stand that you are tools if you buy into hype =p... :rolleyes:

[BlackVCG]

THE DIFFERENT DIAMETER CONSPIRACY

So long as the paint doesn't roll out the barrel before you fire it and it feeds properly, your barrel inner diameter has little to do with the performance of the paintball. I've been playing since 1984 and I have yet to find any SCIENTIFIC data to the contrary. (Advertisements and claims by manufacturers are NOT scientific data.) I've also consulted with reputable airsmiths. They say the same thing. Matching paint to barrel diameters is not required. Really. Trust me. I wouldn't lie to you, I'm not very good at it. I've done my own testing. I've tried different inner bore sizes,


Performance is a very broad term. I assume we're talking about accuracy, range and efficiency right? With respect to range, that's simple. Nothing changes it other than the mass of the paint and the velocity of the ball. Simple physics. KE = 1/2(M)(V^2)

As far as accuracy is considered. A paintball is a sphere, thus in the world of aerodynamics it is a considered a "blunt-body" object. Just based on the name, you can tell a sphere isn't a very "aerodynamic" shape. The most you can do to affect accuracy is have consistent velocities out the end of the barrel. The tighter your velocity grouping, the more often paint is going to hit the same spot but there are other forces on the ball that make accuracy a relative term.




Here's the result: other than the fact I had to adjust velocity when I changed barrels, there wasn't ANY difference in range or accuracy. (The larger the paint, or smaller the bore the more friction you get, therefore it affects the velocity, but that's a matter of a simple adjustment.)


Sure, I'll agree with your findings on this one. Would you not agree that efficiency is a pretty important factor of performance? I would say so, at least in today's world of accuracy by volume tournament play. What you just said you did was you changed the gun's efficiency by changing the barrels. Increasing the velocity and decreasing the velocity is simply changing the amount of air pressure behind the ball and the more pressure you put behind the ball, the more air you're using per shot.



Simple. When the ball is fired, it gets compressed and it fits the barrel perfectly. You get a perfect seal. I base this theory on the fact that several experienced airsmiths have told me this happens. So therefore there's no real need to match the paint and barrel diameters. Add to this the inherent inaccuracy of a paintball and the fact that most players launch clouds of paint at their opponents -- it really makes this practice of matching barrels to paint (for the purposes of accuracy and gas efficiency) absolutely unessential.

I just about fell out of my chair when I read that first statement. So this has been proven by several esxperience airsmiths? Such a statement makes me realize these guys don't have much more validity behind their beliefs than Brand X that claims its barrel kit will make your gun shoot more accurate than an HK PSG-1.

PROVE to me that the ball makes a perfect seal around the barrel when it is propelled down the barrel. You can't, because it doesn't. Put your barrel in a bin of chalk to coat the inside of the barrel and then shoot a ball down the barrel. Look at the amount of powder that is remaining. You should see two tracks down the barrel. If the ball expanded and sealed around the barrel, shouldn't all the chalk be gone?



Anybody who tell you otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about. Or they DO know otherwise -- but they want you to buy their barrels.

Okay...




One: The paintball is a round, liquid-filled projectile with a flexible outer shell which makes it very unstable.

Two: The very low velocity (under 300 feet per second) of a paintball marker also makes the paintball very ballistically inefficient.

These two factors will negate any improvements on the fit of the paintball in the barrel. This isn't based on theory, it is based on the SCIENCE of ballistics. As a trained firearms instructor and sniper I had to have extensive knowledge of ballistics, so I know what I'm talking about.

I'm a Mechanical Engineer. I know a lot of dumb Mechanical Engineers. Not to rain on your parade, but I don't really care who you are or what training you've had. Your status doesn't ultimately make you correct in the end.

First of all, the gelatin shell does have some "give" to it, but for the most part it is fairly rigid. It doesn't see any "expansion" or sudden transformation into a wobbling water balloon as Smart Parts likes to claim. If the ball did expand and turn into this water balloon that sealed perfectly in the barrel, then why can you pick up unbroken paint on the ground and it's in the same exact shape as before it left the barrel?



So let's say (for the sake of arguement) that I don't know what I'm talking about and matching paint and barrels IS important. If you still feel the need to believe that matching paint to the barrel IS important ask yourself something.

If this is really a big deal why then aren't there industry standards for ball outer diameters and barrel inner diameters?

If it really makes a difference, why aren't the manufacturers of these products spending some time and money to standardize all of this?

They have the time and money to develop new fill and shell colours and new porting patterns and plating materials, don't they? I mean why is it up to the player to fix this problem?


A bunch of factors can answer you questions here. First of all, getting manufacturers to develop "industry standards" is like pulling teeth. Everyone has their methods of manufacturing and some are cheaper than others. There's a lot of junk barrel manufacturers out there, so you can be rest assured that they aren't going to keep the tolerances of a machine shop AGD uses. Also when it comes to paint, it's pretty difficult to make a gelatin capsule have tolerances down to +/- .001". I'm amazed that for the most part paint is within .005" in most cases.

Paintball isn't the only industry where standards amongst all the manufacturers are implemented and abided by. In the world of automotive aftermarket parts you'll hear every manufacturer claiming their part is to spec and the other company's part that is bolted to it isn't correct and that's why the customer is having problems. It's just how the world works.

Also, paint size does change based on humidity, exposure to sun and other environmental factors. Having a barrel kit to compensate for that is pretty handy.





THE DURTY DAN FIX

First off, players have to stop buying into the hype. I am no longer a victim of the Different Diameter Conspiracy. I have found what some players in our club call the Durty Dan Fix.

I buy large bore barrels. Yeah, small bore paint will roll out of the barrel -- or will it? On my open-bolt semis the anti-double feed will prevent barrel roll out. On my pumps and closed bolt semis, I got one of those aftermarket extensions that attaches to the marker where the barrel goes and the barrel is inserted into the extension. These little extensions have a smaller inner diameter to hold the ball in the barrel and prevent roll out when the bolt chambers a ball.

(For models that do not have this aftermarket accessory -- like my 68 Special -- I had them custom made by an airsmith for under $30.00. Far less than the price of a second barrel.)

So now I can have ONE barrel for each of my markers and I can shoot ANY paint that's available to me. I've used different brands each of Zap, Diabolo, R.P, and 32 Degrees and so far all paint has performed equally well.

The Different Diameter Conspiracy: I'm not one to point fingers but does anybody smell a rat here besides me?

Using a large bore barrel is most definitely one of the best things you can do so you can shoot all the paint out on the market. This is why most all manufacturers sell their guns with a barrel at .691" or over. The larger bore prevents paint from getting stuck in the barrel because of the fit and it also reduces the paint breakage.

Why does it reduce paint breakage? Because when the ball is pre-fractured by the bolt moving past it when it's the next ball inline, if it can't get air around it to build a pressure boundary and all the pressure is pushing behind it, the ball will blow up if the fracture is facing any direction except straight at the bolt or 180 degrees the other way. This is a topic for another discussion, but it's why you will get less breaks running a paint to barrel fit that is relatively loose.


Here's what I believe it all comes down to. Paint to barrel fit is not essential. You can get paint out the end of the barrel and have just as fun of a day playing paintball if you run Generic Brand A factory barrel that has a dull finish and no fancy porting.

Paint to barrel fit does have an effect on efficiency. I can argue that it has an effect on consistency, but I'll save that for another post. I would say that efficiency is an important factor of performance, so if you want to buy a barrel kit, it's not necessarily money down the drain.

Does the paint to barrel fit make a difference? YES. Is it economical when you consider the $100-200 price tag? Probably not, but that's for the end user to decide.

[fire1811]

i have been using .688 or .689 for years and have no problems

the problem with matching paint to barrel size is that paintballs are not consistant.
what matches no might not match the next ball or might not match in an hour when the temperature rises.

not worth the hassle imo

[RTDynaflow]

Some good posts here...

I want to bring up a test that Warpig did... You would think that the better consistency over the chrono would result in a tighter grouping? They tested this theory and it is somewhat flawed. They back that had the best chrono consistency (+/- 1), did not have the best grouping. This, btw, was one of the smaller backs. The best paint to barrel match did. It was like +/- 3 over the chrono. Wish I could find that article. Although I am unsure of how many times this was repeated. So, this could just be a fluke.

Anyway, thought I would bring that up.

Depends on the paint you play with... Although I didn't have some form of scientificaly finding the exact size, I have seen paint that 90% or so tested through on the same bore sizer. Anyway, I still believe that in the accuracy area, the difference of going up or down a size (from the ideal size), does not make a great enough difference to warrant the big deal some people place on it. We don't have scopes on our guns (don't take this literaly), short of FSDO, I don't see accuracy that big a deal in the tourny area. 5" on 1 ball won't make a difference. Especially when you have another 21 following that...

my .02

[JimmyBeam]

Sounds like a plan.

I've matched paint and the only thing it did was cause more barrel breaks... :tard:

Time to buy a CP 1 peice at .693 bore...

:D!

ya i used to match, then i figured out that if i just use my .692 Evil back every week, it works just fine. i havent tried to match in a while, i dont see the point anymore

[CoolHand]

Does paint to barrel match effect accuracy?

Maybe, but I don't care.

Does it effect efficiency?

Most likely . . . . but I don't care.

Does it effect barrel breaks?

Most certainly . . . This, I care about.

Will a tiny ball roll out of a big barrel on a cocker or a pump?

Yup . . . . but I don't care. (If I did, I could just tip the barrel back though.)

I use huge bore barrels with whatever paint I find. Why? I hate squeegies. Plain and Simple. Barrel breaks suck. Can I still hit the tip of a 60' flag pole from a hundred feet (you can do the trig on that one) with my FreeFlow and its .693 boomer (even with teeny tiny paint)? Yup. Why? Dunno. Maybe I'm just that good (prolly not, but . . . . ). Maybe it makes no difference. I don't care.

:ninja: Rant

[Darkstorm]

I agree that 'hype' is part of any market, but at the same time diameter does matter due to the realities of manufacturing/on field effects.

Let me state this clearly 'from my expreience' the biggest problem is variation in the paint size within the same box.

This causes problems when on AVERAGE the paint that is too small or too large for a barrel. With too small the velocity fluxuates, and with too big it barrel breaks. Both have effects on accuracy.

When the barrel is too big I have seen fluxuations of up to 15fps. When the barrel is too small, I will break at least one ball out of every hoper. Further, because I play scenario, I have been in plenty of games that are a bit "damp".

That said, I am also certain that someone who invents a better paintball shell would be respected. (Notice, I did not say make money).

[shartley]

DD is correct in his base idea, but a bit off on his proving it and the reasons why.

I hope folks don’t discount the premise because he used faulty thinking and examples to back it up. Yes, I too shook my head at a bunch of points made. But the basic thought about paint to barrel match and how it REALLY affects things is correct..... for the most part. ;)

Folks need to stop worrying about the big A and worry about the big E. And that is what barrels have more affect on.

[Bad_Dog]

sooooooooo if I have my freak and isert matched to lets say diablo blaze... and I go test it on the range...

then I go and swap barrels to my 2in diameter Nerf football shooter (2.0 caliber)... go test that out with the same paint... you're telling me that I'll have the same accuracy??

I agree with what Shartly said... but a good read none the less....

[tyrion2323]

Dan is wrong about this. let's put this to rest already.

[vonort]

No my good sir YOU are wrong. DD has hit it on the head. Only reason I use a kit is when I'm using a closed bolt marker to prevent roll outs. With my blowbacks I use a large bore barrel and have no problems. So I do agree.. lets put this to rest. Barrel kits, Multi bore barrels are all hype created by the industry to get you to accept there lack in consistency in manufacturing.

[SlartyBartFast]

Dan is wrong about this. let's put this to rest already.

Really? I think the only conspiracy is the average paintballer's stupidity and desire to be parted from gobs of cash. :p

Why spend 150+ for barrel kits when all you really need is MAYBE two or three barrels is you want to match paint. Small, Medium, Large. A really good decent barrel, for which you aren't paying for hype, should be about $30 tops. J&J or LAPCO fit the bill.

The only reason manufacturers have different sizes is they use different molds and machines, or dry the balls more/less before shipping.

Temperature, humidity, and age add variability to the size and roundness of balls in a box/bag or hopper. I'd wager that the variability of the paintballs is a magnitude larger than the divisions on the stupid inserts and backs.

But what do I know. I'd rather spend my money on paint and practice to improve my skills than a shiney excuse for why I can't hit the side of a barn.

Unlike a performance/skill sport like firearm shooting, cycling, or swimming, or racing, there isn't a paintball player on the planet that can benefit from the infintessimal increase in performance that a perfect match would provide. And the effect on the ball once it leaves the barrel completely negates any accuracy gains anyways.

So that only leaves efficiency/shots per tank. But if you have all-day air and don't run dry in a game, who cares?

[SlartyBartFast]

Multi bore barrels are all hype created by the industry to get you to accept there lack in consistency in manufacturing.

That's laughable. It might be an argument if we were all shooting Perfect Circle paintballs or the ammo for the FN303.

Geletin and manufacturing consistency WILL NEVER appear together.

You the player have a larger derimental effect on the inconsistency in paintballs by not keeping them at consistent temperatures and humdity. Now if you want to install a climate control system on your hopper, be my guest. :p

[Bad_Dog]

so if the size of the barrel doesnt matter then why do we use them...

if the ball doesnt touch the barrel at all (lets say the bore is in excess of an inch) then why is the barrel even there???


I know as a fact that the barrel does have some influence... more than what Dan has posted... otherwise anyone whos shot a few balls through thier marker without a barrel would understand what I'm talking about.

[trains are bad]

I use the smallest size in my kit that the paint still drops through without getting stuck. This is a good test and keeps my velocity consistent and efficiency high. I do not belive going for a blow test match improves accuracy and in fact I take it as a disadvantage to autocockers that you have to use a tight match to prevent roll outs. All it has ever done for me is insure that that odd oversize ball in the case blows up in the barrel.

[Tyril]

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say that yes, it makes a difference, but not by as much as the companies want you to think

The difference between a .689 and a .688 is so incredibly small as to be negligable. Even in the best of paint, the ball-to-ball variation is going to be greater than .001, that is simply a fact of the industry that needs to be accepted.

What I want is to see someone with a pair of calipers and a lot of patience to size 20 or 30 balls from several different bags of different brands of paint, and different runs of the same paint. The results could be interesting.

I bet that if one were to have two or three barrels they could change out depending on local conditions, they would do just as well as one with a full kit.


What do I use? A blazer barrel. What size? Who knows? It's relitively large, gets larger in the middle, and in the four cases I've put through it, I've never broken one in the barrel. That matters to me a great deal more than an extra pod either way in efficiency.

-mike

[SlartyBartFast]

otherwise anyone whos shot a few balls through thier marker without a barrel would understand what I'm talking about.

Well, no one's claiming the barrel does nothing. But after .695/.689, and stopping balls from rolling freely out the end, what is gained by making the fit tighter? And is it worth the effort to match and the cost to have the overpriced insert kits?

[SeeK]

Well, no one's claiming the barrel does nothing. But after .695/.689, and stopping balls from rolling freely out the end, what is gained by making the fit tighter? And is it worth the effort to match and the cost to have the overpriced insert kits?

Efficency aside, isn't the ball detent supposed to keep the balls from rolling out?

[shartley]

Efficency aside, isn't the ball detent supposed to keep the balls from rolling out?
Not all paintball markers have ball detents.

[MarkM]

Ball detents were originally only on 'cockers who have a huge varience in breech size to stop the balls from double feeding...the closed bolt operation of the 'cocker actually makes this worse as the balls can and do roll out of the barrel...the mag didn't have this problem since it was open bolt plus it had the spring in the barrel (although without getting into the closed v open debate all paintball markers fire the gas through the bolt to finally propell the ball in the closed postion even if the gas burst began when the bolt was in the open position)...if ball detents were such a perfect development then why do you not see them on pumps (not 'cockers as I covered that above) Now things are different with the force feed loaders so the detent has taken on a new role for which is is actually better suited to than the reasons it was first used, plus the rates of fire could make things get ugly down the barrel without them.

[hitech]

Want to see just how much matching paint to the barrel has on accuracy? Use your barrel kit WITHOUT the insert! :wow: Ask cphilip what happened. ;)

[shartley]

Want to see just how much matching paint to the barrel has on accuracy? Use your barrel kit WITHOUT the insert! :wow: Ask cphilip what happened. ;)
Well, would that tell you how much paint to barrel matching matters, or how using your barrel KIT properly/improperly matters? I would say it is the latter. ;)

[hitech]

Well, would that tell you how much paint to barrel matching matters, or how using your barrel KIT properly/improperly matters? I would say it is the latter. ;)

Well..... In most cases I would say that using ones equipment properly is important. However, this case happened to be different. It shot just as accurately without the insert. :wow: Just had to turn up the velocity a tad. ;)

It just doesn't make the difference everyone thinks it does.


:cheers:

[vonort]

On an autococker the ball detent does not prevent roll out. The ball is pushed past the detent before it is fired. So if you shoot and the next round loads. And then you go to run or move and point your barrel down.. you have a good chance of a roll out.

As far as not using your insert I agree with Shartley. I think it just proves you don't know how to use your equipment. A better test would be get a good match. Say using your .684 insert. Then take out the .692 insert and use it. You will not see much of a difference.

[shartley]

Well..... In most cases I would say that using ones equipment properly is important. However, this case happened to be different. It shot just as accurately without the insert. :wow: Just had to turn up the velocity a tad. ;)

It just doesn't make the difference everyone thinks it does.


:cheers:
LOL I can understand that. I thought you were going to say that an inner lip ripped the paint apart or something. Or that the paint was being bounced around by hitting an inner lip. LOL

But yeah, what you just posted does not surprise me at all….. as you could probably tell by my other posts. ;)

[slade]

AGD has done enough tests about this to make all of Dans thoughts moot. The Ball does NOT conform to the barrel interior, rather it only touches at two points all the way out. You can prove this yourself with some baby powder dusted inside a barrel, and shoot a ball. Look for the two lines etched in the powder, that's the only place the ball touched. That's also why rifled barrels don't work in paintball.
and if you read the whole post, you will see that with a small ball and large bore, the ball bounces back and forth down the barrel. thus having a mismatched ball to bore size will affect accuracy... by how much i dont know. probably not much.

[SlartyBartFast]

thus having a mismatched ball to bore size will affect accuracy... by how much i dont know. probably not much.

It will affect accuracy only in increments that are measurable with perfectly sized and consistent paintball fired in a vacuum.

In other words: real world difference >> all but negligible. :cool:

[Destructo6]

I base this theory on the fact that several experienced airsmiths have told me this happens. So therefore there's no real need to match the paint and barrel diameters.
After criticizing the scientific basis for the pro-barrel matching camp, he commits this sort of error in nearly the same breath? Lets see the science.

[1ofkind]

I agree with the fact bore siezeing doesn't effect accuracy, but only for certain markers. I noticed if you get a tight bore when useing a spyder the shots are defiently straighter, almost until they hit the ground in the distance.

[Lohman446]

Let me say this.. I think in the extremes he is wrong. But I doubt anyoen will notice a difference that matters between .683 and .689 if they use the larger size, jsut barrel breaks with the smaller

[Bad_Dog]

you also must take in account the range that Dan did his tests at... if you're close to your target, its pretty much point and shoot. The margin of diference at close range is miniscule compared to that of a larger distance. Remember if the path of the paintballs vary, it wont be as noticeable at 10ft compared to 20ft...

example..

if you conducted your tests standing 3 feet away from a wall... no duh the balls are all going to hit on top of one or another...



I think that some of your information takes a step in the right direction, but the fact that your methods of prooving your ideas are so vague makes everything seem false.

[Bad_Dog]

Here are a few things that I dont agree with:


Simple. When the ball is fired, it gets compressed and it fits the barrel perfectly.
yet you state later that you buy a large bore barrel so that all paint fits it. I dont think that a paintball would get compressed if the barrel is larger?? and what if the barrel is too small for the paint? I dont recall barrel breaks helping my game anyhow...


I got one of those aftermarket extensions that attaches to the marker where the barrel goes and the barrel is inserted into the extension. These little extensions have a smaller inner diameter to hold the ball in the barrel and prevent roll out when the bolt chambers a ball.

so if your little extension has a smaller diemeter and you use your large bore paint what do you end up with? barrel break, barrel break, barrel break ect....

It just seems to me that Durty Dan is looking for some popularity, allthough the "Durty Dan Fix" is cute, it probably only appeals to those who want to believe in it because they have nothing else to do with their time...

:rolleyes:

[Bad_Dog]

It seems to me that the two major factors you havent realized is that when you use your little fix tip thingey, your efficiency must go waaaaayy down...

One of the reasons why people use the multibore kits is for efficiency and consistancy...

another major factor is the quality of the paint and its tolerances..... like if your using paintball seconds, theres no way any barrel will match the paint.

I do think that its a good thing to think about and to question something like this is a task none the less. But the way that you introduce this idea with little to no evidence but to trust you and input from airsmiths... is pretty harsh. Then you come to a conclusion without proper testing....

kinda seems cheesy to me...

just my feelings though... $.02

[Rather]

Great lets get in a huffy over that thousanthof an inch the companies bore out when smoothing out your barrel!

[Kodiak]

You know I've posted Dirty Dan's article to about 10 or 12 different forums. I love a spirited debate. I've seen some really good posts on both sides of the issue. 1 or 2 bad ones too, but mostly good. This particular topic has really go the "juices" flowing and ppl thinking. It's amazing how much ppl really know and share. Thx for all who've posted.

[Army]

and if you read the whole post, you will see that with a small ball and large bore, the ball bounces back and forth down the barrel. thus having a mismatched ball to bore size will affect accuracy... by how much i dont know. probably not much.

Which is why I keep several barrels handy to better size the bore with the ball size. If the ball is too small, I must use more gas to propel it since much pressure will escape around the ball. If the ball is too large, it will require much more gas just to poop it out the barrel since the ball must now overcome the increaseed friction. If it is a good match, my gas usage will be "just right", since the ball will neither stick to the barrel, nor roll out on its own, but give me enough seal for gas efficiency while keeping the friction levels manageable.

Dan is correct in that you COULD use one barrel for all your needs, as a big bore will shoot anything....not well, but anything.

Me? I'll continue to change barrels as needed for the inconsistancies in paint size.

[hitech]

Dan is correct in that you COULD use one barrel for all your needs, as a big bore will shoot anything....not well, but anything.


I do (use one barrel). The ONLY problem I have is a loss of efficiency as the paint gets smaller. Accuracy is not effected at all.

One other note. My observations seem to differ with the popular belief here regarding the amount of gas necessary. I have found that the looser the fit, the more gas necessary. The tighter the fit, the less gas necessary. The better seal appears to more than overcome the increased friction.

Another observation. The tighter the fit, the less consistent the velocity. The looser the fit, the more consistent the velocity. This does give some creditability to matching the paint the barrel. It's a compromise between efficiency and consistency. However, two or three different sized barrels would accomplish that. :D

[Jeffy-CanCon]

As a friend of Durty Dan's, I just want to say that I think he'd be pleased that one of his old articles is able to spark this much debate!