Proposal for an Electronic Trigger Auditing System

[Miscue]

The problem with a standardized board and standardized software is that every marker behaves differently. They have unique solenoid dwell times or even multiple solenoids.

The one thing that is universally the same is that there is a trigger switch of some kind that plugs into the board.

My idea is this: An external board with a small rechargeable battery, in a small enclosure that can be easily mounted somewhere. The trigger switch wire plugs into the auditing board, and the auditing board plugs into the marker's board where the trigger switch originally went to.

No modifications need to be made to the marker besides being able to route the wires outside.

This auditing board can be programmed to limit ROF, have its own shot-buffering system that basically overrides whatever is in the marker's board, and be hard-set to a conservative debounce. There is no effect on how an ACE works or how the marker functions. Say the NXL had something like this auditing board, it could implement NXL FA features on a marker set to semi-auto.

It would need a sound and/or vibration sensor to tell when the marker is firing. I think there are other schemes to determine when a shot was actually fired, but let's leave it at this.

How to defeat this system:
Well, if you have a "cheater" board it does you no good if the auditing board is keeping track of trigger pulls versus shots fired. There would not be a purely software approach to breaking this auditing system. You would need a physical means of defeating it - like fooling with the wiring somehow and give the auditing board false trigger pulls.

Regardless, this is MUCH easier for a scrutinizer to check for - than something hidden in software. He can look at the switch, look at the wire - and say, "Yup, nothing funky going on here," or "How come this trigger switch has an extra wire?"

Tourny's can enforce new rules instantly - like a ROF cap. They want to let you use enhanced firing modes - they can implement it on the auditing board if they choose.

What are the practicality, cost, technical, political, and convenience issues that could prevent such an auditing system? I'm trying to come up with some.

[magmonkey]

my first thought is the newest timmy board has the micro switch hard soldered to the board, along with most if not all of the smart parts markers.

if they could atleast standardize a plug in micro switch along with a standard plug this could be cost affective and a good usable idea

what about instead of a vibration sensor a secondary plug between the board and noid?

the auditing board could presumably read(and filter bounce?) the micro switch pulse
and measure it against the pulse going to the noid, keeping it one shot one pull no matter what the board has on it for cheats

the problem would be keeping it tamper proof so that teams who had an in could not defete the audit
and getting a league to stick with the rules and not adjust them to suit cheaters


also, I think it would have to be cheap enough that it would be supplied by the league when you get your player card (even if the price had to be raised to cover it)
because I think that you would be hard pressed to get people to buy a performance defeting product on their own.



Alan
Destructive Customs

[Miscue]

my first thought is the newest timmy board has the micro switch hard soldered to the board, along with most if not all of the smart parts markers.

if they could atleast standardize a plug in micro switch along with a standard plug this could be cost affective and a good usable idea

what about instead of a vibration sensor a secondary plug between the board and noid?

the auditing board could presumably read(and filter bounce?) the micro switch pulse
and measure it against the pulse going to the noid, keeping it one shot one pull no matter what the board has on it for cheats

the problem would be keeping it tamper proof so that teams who had an in could not defete the audit
and getting a league to stick with the rules and not adjust them to suit cheaters


also, I think it would have to be cheap enough that it would be supplied by the league when you get your player card (even if the price had to be raised to cover it)
because I think that you would be hard pressed to get people to buy a performance defeting product on their own.



Alan
Destructive Customs

Oh, it could be made cheaply. You could just about get away with not even using a circuit board. I'd just put the chip in a socket and wire it up. The chip is like a dollar, battery might cost more than that, and you'll need wiring and an enclosure of some kind. I dunno how much sound/vibration sensors cost, but I doubt they are very expensive.

Well, I wouldn't give them time to tamper with it - and the enclosure needs to be sturdy. Put it on the marker right before play, and pull it off immediately after. Heck, pull it off along with their armband and their marker can't fire anymore.

I would not provide it to the players. The ref should attach it when the player is chrono-ing. They would not need a board for everyone - just enough for who is playing on the field at a given time.

[Meph]

I can see players sliding and the wires "magically" being torn from the ground (in reality by the player). Depending on the design since the wires would have to be routed externally to the device.

Thing to wonder about is where to mount it? Wherever you mount it you know people will complain about it. And if you force it in the NPPL some people will filter over to the PSP. Or vice versa.

If anything I say to not let it override their board, just give you a readout of what their performance was. To digially see proof of X pulls however they instead have Y shots. Sort of a "caught red handed" effect.

I'd probably say have it mounted on the back/bottom of the hoppers. It won't hit the ground when they slide, it probably won't even get shot there. And no hopper sits on the body so if thin enough it'll have enough clearance.

Just need to find a way to have the wires protected along the body.

[Target Practice]

Looks interesting, Cue. I'll be watching this.

:D

[Miscue]

I can see players sliding and the wires "magically" being torn from the ground (in reality by the player). Depending on the design since the wires would have to be routed externally to the device.

Thing to wonder about is where to mount it? Wherever you mount it you know people will complain about it. And if you force it in the NPPL some people will filter over to the PSP. Or vice versa.

If anything I say to not let it override their board, just give you a readout of what their performance was. To digially see proof of X pulls however they instead have Y shots. Sort of a "caught red handed" effect.

I'd probably say have it mounted on the back/bottom of the hoppers. It won't hit the ground when they slide, it probably won't even get shot there. And no hopper sits on the body so if thin enough it'll have enough clearance.

Just need to find a way to have the wires protected along the body.

I think you're right about overriding the board's shot buffer.

"Magically" tearing their wires = their marker doesn't shoot... what incentive do they have to do that?

I think this device could be very small and mounted out of the way. I like the idea of putting it by the hopper - it opens the possibility of the board being able to monitor the feeding of balls to count shots fired. But, if it's mounted to the hopper... there's the issue of wiring it to the marker's board.

People complaining about it for silly reasons - is a real problem that could prevent such a thing from happening. It's kinda sad really.

[Target Practice]

What about slinging it under the gripframe? This way, it's right next to the board, and accessible.

[Miscue]

What about slinging it under the gripframe? This way, it's right next to the board, and accessible.

Yeah, that's a good spot. Somewhere between the tank and gripframe.

[Target Practice]

Yeah, that's a good spot. Somewhere between the tank and gripframe.

Better yet, make the battery strap onto the tank, then run power to the chip/board, then wires to the marker's board. This way, you wouldn't have to have it all self-contained.

[Destructo6]

It sounds quite good.

Why not let the teams or individuals decide where to mount it, with the stipulation that it has to be visible?

[RTDynaflow]

If anything I say to not let it override their board, just give you a readout of what their performance was. To digially see proof of X pulls however they instead have Y shots. Sort of a "caught red handed" effect.


What Miscue is proposing would run it inline with the trigger switch/noid. So if the wires get ripped out, you have no gun, just a 1400 dollar piece of aluminum and electronics. Untill you get your grip panels off and rehook things...

In order to make it not override the marker... Means you need a 2 way splitter of some sort to plug into the board. That could cause a few issues, I would assume... And who is to say that you still won't pull the "splitter" out of the board instead of the auditing box out of the two way?

Good idea. Be hard to get the NPPL to implement such a thing.

[Target Practice]

Be hard to get the NPPL to implement such a thing.

Well, maybe we just need a new league, then.

;)

[Meph]

Yeah, but the problem I can see is...

1) It is an accident and the wires do get ripped off somehow. I don't know it's design so I'm just suggesting. The player THEN has the paperweight for something that isn't his fault, and can cost their team the game! You don't want to do that to people because the aftermath is something where many ref-shields will be necessary.

2) Everything eventually has problems. If the device itself was assembled poorly (don't know who's making it, again just theories to toss out) or the soldering was a little weak. Whatever reason. Suddenly the current flow is disconnected and they have their paperweight mid-game. They pull the trigger and don't know what's wrong. Ultimately they're going to blame, instantly, this little black box.

Either way with these 2 situations they are going to be royally pissed, player and team. And if anything probably demand reparations for it. Be it a rematch, which the OTHER team will then complain about! That or a refund of $$$ for the event.


It's a great concept if the player did it on his own, how he'd have a paperweight. But if by some odd chance it was an accident or whatever, it's not their fault so why should their entire team have to pay for it?

[hitech]

As long as no one is using an eMag... Remember my idea for an eMag cheat? ;)

[SlartyBartFast]

All of this was shot down every time I suggested it.

Sure, markers work differently. But it wouldn't be rocket science to create one board that could operate multiple markers. Indeed many of the aftermarket programable boards do just that.

Even specific boards for different markers wouldn't be that hard to implement. I know people got all hot and bothered last time I suggested it but...

Have one recognized board manufacturer for the tournament series. That manufacturer then sells serailised, tamperproof boards. The boards and serial numbers are kept on record. And yes, it's possible to produce tamperproof electronics. There are other methods, but an example would be encasing the thing in epoxy or boxing it in a case. Serialised boards and a checksum run on the chips could be used. etc, etc

The official boards then offer only programming and settings/adjustment within what the tournament will allow and are checked by the refs before the markers are allowed on field.

So, no cost to the tournament, 40-50$ per player to buy a board.

But, then people are sure to now say how easy it would be for "hidden" boards to bypass any official board and control the marker.....

[hitech]

But, then people are sure to now say how easy it would be for "hidden" boards to bypass any official board and control the marker.....

I think I've been slighted... :wow: ;)