Confirmed: Shockers available with "rebound" feature

[Lohman446]

I confirmed this today, the ones that SP has in stock now are with rebound... the rebound board is NOT the same size as the Nerve board, but will be available soon as an upgrade for about $150 - no confirmed price.

Now I know what a lot of you think of the board - but I have noticed a shift from "one shot one pul" to as long as you dnt hit someone more than three times on a bunker run than its ok. The Rebound feature addresses this - and is able to be turned off for the places that dont allow it.

[FallNAngel]

How does the rebound feature address it? The rebound board is creating (or allowing) bounce/ramping. IMO, it shouldn't be there in the first place.

[Lohman446]

It allows my first three or four shots to be true semi auto - the shots I would pull on a bunker run whiling having something more for laning when I want to. So its not legal in PSP and NPPL, it is legal at many of the smaller fields around here

[ghideon]

So its not legal in PSP and NPPL, it is legal at many of the smaller fields around here

It won't be when the insurance companies get a clue. I swear if I get lit up by some idiot using a marker with heavy bounce/rebound/whatever, I'll be screaming at the field owner to kick said idiot off, or I'll be complaining to the fields insurance carrier.

[ilikePB]

This is old news on the Shocker forums. Rebound has 5 settings, 1 is true semi and 5 is the most rebound. Rebound isn't like normal ramping it actually lowers your debounce settings after you attain a certain amount of bps, however it stops shooting when you stop pulling the trigger, unlike normal bounce. It can be turned off so there is no reason for to complain about this any more than you complain about multi mode firing on Spyder clones. All new Shockers have been coming with this for about 1-2 weeks now from the factory.

[ilikePB]

It won't be when the insurance companies get a clue. I swear if I get lit up by some idiot using a marker with heavy bounce/rebound/whatever, I'll be screaming at the field owner to kick said idiot off, or I'll be complaining to the fields insurance carrier.
Where have you been man? Everyone around here plays with bounce at rec fields. How is this any different for insurance companies than all the Spyders and clones with multi mode firing?

[Lohman446]

It won't be when the insurance companies get a clue. I swear if I get lit up by some idiot using a marker with heavy bounce/rebound/whatever, I'll be screaming at the field owner to kick said idiot off, or I'll be complaining to the fields insurance carrier.

With it set up to come on afte four shots it will not happen in an area where one would not be firing heavily without bounce. It will happen on laning. I think this controlled bounce may be a good thing. It gives it to those who are going to use it anyways, but makes it controllable - as in high debounce settings for the first four shots (like in a bunker move) and lower debounce settings for laning. The best of both worlds to me. Funny...scream at a field owern once.. I seem to recall the last person screaming at me at my shop being removed from the property... but hey, screaming works.

[LittlePaintballBoy]

If you ask me, controlled bounce like this is better than uncontrolled bounce, and I think SP was smart to go with this instead of an all out bouncy board. Good move IMO.

[LaW]

:rolleyes:

[ilikePB]

Good response, lol.

[matt-o]

its just ramping in a different form

[Lohman446]

Or.. its just hybrid in a different form, you're call.

[ilikePB]

Or it's just bounce in a different form...

[than205]

It won't be when the insurance companies get a clue. I swear if I get lit up by some idiot using a marker with heavy bounce/rebound/whatever, I'll be screaming at the field owner to kick said idiot off, or I'll be complaining to the fields insurance carrier.

Honestly, as a ref, I'd be happier if you took it to the industry/manufacturers.
I'm tired of tippy RT's, cheater boards, DM4's, Impulses and anything else that causes things to get out of hand. I tired of saving someone's *** when they should have the common sense to not light someone up. (Ya know, golden rule kinda crap)
I honestly believe if you need to cheat like that then you have some sort of deficiency that plastic surgery may help. 1-3 is hits fine, but when you start getting to 5 and up.

I know all you 'men' are saying "5 hits, that's nothing", but next time you light up that old school player with the Prolite (who's there for the fun of it). And he comes bearing down on your butt for some retribution I may not jump in the middle of that for you.

Taking it to the insurance industry will just shut down the reputable fields. Ya know, the one's that actually care if you have a safe time. There are too few insurance companies, and getting fewer as time goes by. The manufacturers need to go back to the arrangements that were made. And players need to learn some trigger control.

[Tyger]

Something to think about in all this.

Unless they've been updated, and I don't believe they have, the ASTM F1776-97 standard for goggles is as follows :


ASTM standards : (American Society of Testing Materials) The ASTM has provided two tests for all paintball specific goggles, all current lenses adhere to these tests. Lens to frame : A lens must not gap or fall from the goggle frame. This is tested at 1.5 meters and below, paintball passes through chrony at 300 FPS. The lens must not break or crack at 400 FPS at 1.5 M and below. Test given : 4 shots with 3 second intervals in 4 places on the lense.

These were written in 1998 or so, and were not written for an ROF like we have today.

From a usenet post circa 1998 (http://www.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&selm=uB9jHgrB%23GA.131%40upnetnews02.moswest.msn.n et) :


These rules are in addition to the NPPL Rules at World Cup:

A semi automatic paintball marker is one in which one paintball is ejected during each firing cycle. Each such firing cycle must include an intentional pull by the finger of the player by an exertion of force and a release of force on the trigger by the player's finger. The trigger cycle includes both the pull to activate and release to reset actions. All such semi automatic paintball markers are permitted to be used at the World Cup.

Any marker that in any way enhances the number of paintballs ejected during a firing cycle, must be limited to ejecting no more than 8.75 paintballs per second. Such markers that are not full autos will be permitted for use at the World Cup. Full Autos are not permitted. All paintball markers must be gravity fed.

Just think about that the next time you see someone get ripped 10+ times in the goggles.

-Tyger

[Lohman446]

1998 rules - nice. For instance the Warp is illegal by those, the q-loader, arguably the HALO... What are the current rules?

[FalconGuy016]

I missed the rebound thing, what is it?

[Beemer]

Heres what I got Tyger





Designation: F 1776 – 01


Standard Specification for Eye Protective Devices for Paintball Sports 1

This standard is issued under the fixed designation F 1776; the number immediately following the designation indicates the year of original adoption or, in the case of revision, the year of last revision. A number in parentheses indicates the year of last reapproval. A
superscript epsilon (e) indicates an editorial change since the last revision or reapproval.



7.2.3 High Velocity Impact Test:
7.2.3.1 Sample Size, one EPD (eight impacts).
7.2.3.2 Test Temperature, room temperature, condition the
EPD at the temperature specified in 5.2.2.
7.2.3.3 Each impact shall be made at an angle perpendicular
to the lens surface. Impact the right side of the lens at a point
overlying the pupil of the right eye of the headform three times
at approximately 2-s intervals at 122 + - 6 m/s (400 + - 20 ft/s).
Repeat this impact on the left side of the lens within one
minute. Then choose two additional locations on each lens at
points where the EPD appears most likely to fail. Impact once
at each point.
7.2.3.4 Remove the EPD from the headform and remove
paint by rinsing with tap water. Examine the EPD for evidence
of failure as defined in 4.2.2, 4.2.3, and 4.2.4.
7.2.4 Lens Retention Test:
7.2.4.1 Sample Size, three EPDs (eight impacts each).
7.2.4.2 Test Temperatures, cold, room temperature, and hot.
Condition one EPD at each of the temperatures specified in
5.2.1-5.2.3.
7.2.4.3 Each impact shall be made at 94.5 + - 6 m/s (310 + -
20 ft/s) at an angle perpendicular to the lens surface and at the
junction of the lens and the frame. Select locations around the
perimeter of the lens where the product appears most likely to
fail. Impact the lens in four locations, two times at each
location, at approximately 10 s intervals. Choose at least one
location at the frame superior, the frame inferior, and the frame
temporal as follows:
Frame Superior— Impact at location where lens and frame
meet at the top edge of the EPD.
Frame Inferior— Impact at location where lens and frame
meet at bottom of EPD.
Frame Temporal— Impact at location where lens and
frame meet on side of EPD in line with temple of headform.


7.2.4.4 Remove the EPD from the headform and remove
paint by rinsing with tap water. Examine the EPD for evidence
of failure as defined in 4.2.2, 4.2.3, and 4.2.4.
7.2.4.5 Evaluation of the EPD (Pass/Fail) in 7.2.3 and 7.2.4
is performed after eight successful impacts are completed.
7.2.5 Shell Fragment Test:
7.2.5.1 Sample Size, six EPDs (one impact each).
7.2.5.2 Test Temperatures, cold, room, and hot, as specified
in 5.2 (Two protectors impacted at each temperature).
7.2.5.3 Each impact shall be made at 94.5 + - 6 m/s (310 + -
20 ft/s) at an angle normal to the lens surface and at the
junction of the lens and frame. Select locations around the
perimeter of the lens where the product appears most likely to
fail, each protector being impacted one time, providing for two
impacts at each temperature.
7.2.5.4 After each impact, remove the protector from the
headform carefully so as not to impart any paint from the
protector’s outer surface to the headform. Examine the headform
for evidence of failure as defined in 4.2.1.
7.3 EPD System Retention Test:
7.3.1 Sample Size, one EPD (three impacts).
7.3.2 Test Temperature, room temperature, as specified in
5.2.2.
7.3.3 Each impact shall be made at 94.5 + - 6 m/s (310 + - 20
ft/s) in the horizontal corneal plane at an angle of 110° from the
normal incident axis. Each impact shall be made at the same
point that is on the side surface of the EPD, midway between
the posterior edge of the lens and the posterior border of the
EPD in the horizontal corneal plane. In the event that the EPT
shifts, the headform shall be adjusted so that the second and
third impacts are made at the original impact location.

5.3 Paintballs:
5.3.1 All impact testing shall be done using paintballs
manufactured within the previous eight months. Paintballs
shall be used for impact testing only after a sampling of
paintballs taken from the bulk container fall within the parameters
specified in 5.3.3 and 5.3.4. The paintball bulk container
shall be resealed immediately after each group of paintballs
removed. Paintball storage and nontest handling shall be done
at a relative humidity below 55 % and at a temperature
between 12.7°C (55°F) and 29°C (85°F).
5.3.2 Paintballs used for impact testing shall be conditioned
in a sealed packet (bag) for at least 4 h at the specified temperature for each test. Impact testing shall be completed
within 3 min after removal of the paintballs from their
temperature conditioning atmosphere.
5.3.3 Weight and Dimension Test—Measure a sampling of
25 paintballs. Their weight shall be at or between 3.1 and 3.3
g. Their diameter, measured both at the seam and polar, shall be
at or between 16.89 and 17.78 mm (0.665 and 0.700 in.).
5.3.4 Burst Strength Test—Drop 100 paintballs, individually,
from a height of 1.83 m (6 ft) onto a clean concrete floor.
At least three but no more than 25 of the 100 paintballs shall
break. Discard the unbroken paintballs.


The gog standards are in pdf and 10 pages if anybody wants it.


I dont think these standards are up to date with todays rof. Its not the gogs that are my biggest concern its YOUR UNPROTECTED HEAD. Anybody done any testing on the effects of multiple headshots?




Designation: F 2272 – 03
Standard Specification for
Paintball Markers (Limited Modes)1

This standard is issued under the fixed designation F 2272; the number immediately following the designation indicates the year of
original adoption or, in the case of revision, the year of last revision. A number in parentheses indicates the year of last reapproval. A
superscript epsilon (e) indicates an editorial change since the last revision or reapproval.


6.5.2 All paintball markers intended to be used with refillable
cylinders shall be able to withstand input pressure of three
thousand pounds per square inch 207 bar (3000 psi) without
catastrophic failure. Leaking in a manner which would not
cause injury to the operator shall not constitute failure.
6.5.3 A marker’s performance may not be enhanced, including
but not limited to increasing the markers’ velocity, without
the use of tools or the need for disassembly. In the event that
marker requires an internal switch, jumper or other device to
be set prior to using outside adjustments, it will be considered
to meet this requirement provided that tools or disassembly are
required to access the switch, jumper or similar device.
6.5.4 All paintball markers shall only operate in semiautomatic
or pump mode and may not operate in other
discharge modes such as burst, enhanced trigger or fullyautomatic
discharge mode.


Got the gun standards to


edit cause it dont like to copy and paste

[Beemer]

The rebound board is creating (or allowing) bounce/ramping. IMO, it shouldn't be there in the first place.

I agree. Does the the cyborg have a bounce setting?



It won't be when the insurance companies get a clue. I swear if I get lit up by some idiot using a marker with heavy bounce/rebound/whatever, I'll be screaming at the field owner to kick said idiot off, or I'll be complaining to the fields insurance carrier.

Have a talk with Bob McGuire


Where have you been man? Everyone around here plays with bounce at rec fields. How is this any different for insurance companies than all the Spyders and clones with multi mode firing?

So whos liable when someone gets hurt? You???


If you ask me, controlled bounce like this is better than uncontrolled bounce, and I think SP was smart to go with this instead of an all out bouncy board. Good move IMO

You need to be more informed and educated.



The manufacturers need to go back to the arrangements that were made.

You mean follow ASTM Standards. There is a way but it is involved.



Just think about that the next time you see someone get ripped 10+ times in the goggles.

Or the head

From a jacked thread http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=153208&page=2&pp=40


Did we have a FA rule on markers 6 years ago??

In regards to teaufs posts... Yes, I was hospitalized for 2 days for a concussion. It also took very long time for this to heal. I have had a lot worse pain and didn't pass out. What I remembered when I came to - I had come to a paintball field. My first question, What the hell happened??? I didn't fully remember any of that day for awhile. No, it wasn't just a bloody neck. Yes, I was hospitalized, and during that time, they did numerous tests to make sure I didn't have any internal bleeding. I was lucky, I can still walk, talk, type and use semi proper grammar and punctuation.

You seem to be missing my point. How many people were influenced at that hospital and that field by this incident? Do you think the doctors that treated me are going to be recommending this sport to anyone? I wanted to bring to your attention this DOES happen, and more then we would like to believe.

You are correct in one instance; the player using the marker did break a bunch of rules. I don't think if they had a 15rof limit it would have changed anything. I do think a 0 tolerance full auto rule would have. I actually recieved a visit from the gentleman who hospitalized me. He wasn't their to try and kill me. He just didn't realize the impact he could have.

I think what the NXL is doing is a good thing. Atleast in the limit aspect. However, they are shooting themselves in the foot with the full auto. None of this really concerns me, as I don't play X-ball and especially not at the pro level. I am not complaining about 10, 15, 20bps, I am talking about 20 25 30 and full auto. Debounce and ramp mode. If you can pull 20 bps legit, more power to you and your team.


Like I said, I love speedball. I want to join a tourny team soon here. I understand the risks when I signed the waiver. I understand that when I drop my mask and raise my barrel, I am throwing the dice. I have a chance I could get injured seriously. When I cross that 50 off the break I count on being hit from close range. I don't believe bps limits in themselves will stop serious injuries, I think stricter debounce and ramp rules/punishments could.

[LaW]

1998 rules - nice. For instance the Warp is illegal by those, the q-loader, arguably the HALO... What are the current rules?


Umm Lohaman... They are the current rules.

The industry just chose to ignore them, which is just dumb... The warp at the time was Fed with a gravity fed loader so there really wasnt that much of a fuss about it. But when the halo came out there was a little bit of questions about it being allowed and eventually was as markers became a lot faster so people would waste more paint and make more money for the industry... just my opinion on that though.

[SlartyBartFast]

The warp at the time was Fed with a gravity fed loader so there really wasnt that much of a fuss about it. But when the halo came out there was a little bit of questions about it being allowed and eventually was as markers became a lot faster so people would waste more paint and make more money for the industry... just my opinion on that though.

The 'no force fed' rule IIRC was more to do with whether it was available for all markers or not. Seeing as the HALO or Warp can be put on any marker it certainly doesn't give an unfair advantage.

But maybe limiting loader tech is the only way to tame the monster that paintball is becoming. :confused:

I was once knocked unconcious by a single shot to the temple from a splatmaster. I'd hate to think the consequences from multiple hits. :wow:

[manike]

Umm Lohaman... They are the current rules.

The industry just chose to ignore them, which is just dumb... The warp at the time was Fed with a gravity fed loader so there really wasnt that much of a fuss about it. But when the halo came out there was a little bit of questions about it being allowed and eventually was as markers became a lot faster so people would waste more paint and make more money for the industry... just my opinion on that though.


No we don't. We work within the rules.

The warp, and halo are both legal gravity feed devices as defined under the rules of the time they were developed.

Their ruling was if you turn it upside down and it will eventually stop feeding the paint that is in it, then at some point it is dependent on gravity and allowed. Simple, easy to test and define rule.

Q-loader wouldn't pass this rule.

SlartyBartFast, impacts in the older days of paintball were far worse than they are now, in my opinion, because the paint then was harder, heavier, and less likely to break. Paint now is made to much higher standards so the energy transmited on impact is far less.

[GT]

Sounds like a good feature.

Would be nice if it went F/A, which it almost does, after 6-7 balls.


Or.. its just hybrid in a different form, you're call.

why buy an emag when there are more than enough factory cheater guns out there?

[Beemer]

I was once knocked unconcious by a single shot to the temple from a splatmaster. I'd hate to think the consequences from multiple hits. :wow:




No we don't. We work within the rules.

SlartyBartFast, impacts in the older days of paintball were far worse than they are now, in my opinion, because the paint then was harder, heavier, and less likely to break. Paint now is made to much higher standards so the energy transmited on impact is far less.

Rules what rules? Can I see them? Rules or standards?

Much higher standards. What are those? Can I see those to?

3 grams is 3 grams at 300fps. Impact force starts with distance. Todays game is played much closer then it used to be.


Anybody done any testing on the effects of multiple headshots?

[LaW]

No we don't. We work within the rules.

Thanks for clarifying the hopper question.

But as for working within the rules? I am pretty sure that NXL allowing f/a, or the production of markers that have ramping capabilities do not fall within the rules. Most people are shooting faster because the software is enhancing the rof in some way... Arnt mask lenses only tested to withstand 13bps? What happens when someone is hit at 15bps, 18bps, 20
+bps ? Not saying your completely wrong, because I know I dont know everything, just what is in front of me. Maybe you can further enhance my understanding? Thanks manike!

[SlartyBartFast]

SlartyBartFast, impacts in the older days of paintball were far worse than they are now, in my opinion, because the paint then was harder, heavier, and less likely to break. Paint now is made to much higher standards so the energy transmited on impact is far less.

I'm sure you'll find that the weight has changed very little.

Also, I believe that the impact force and fps safety limits are designed specifically for bouncers.

Otherwise, the standards are complete hooey from an engineering safety perspective.

[Tyger]

I'm sure you'll find that the weight has changed very little.

Also, I believe that the impact force and fps safety limits are designed specifically for bouncers.

Otherwise, the standards are complete hooey from an engineering safety perspective.

I want to get a clarification on what you mean by the last part, because over 300 FPS you start getting into dangerous teritory. Like breaking finger-bone territory.

And I remember those days. They sucked sometimes.

The FPS limit was instituted in the late 80's (1986 / 87?), and I for one am thankful for that. We didn't have bouncers in mind, we had safety. I won't condone it, but if you want shoot your hand at 5 feet away at around 375 or 400 PFS and tell us what happened.

But I'd like to know what you mean by "complete hooey from an engineering safety perspective"? What would, in your opinion, be pushing the limits of safety strictly from an engineering safety perspective? (Not being a jerk, I really want to know.)

-Tyger

[manike]

Rules what rules? Can I see them? Rules or standards?

Of course you can. Go look at the NPPL and PSP rules, and the ASTM standards which are required to meet definitions in the rules. Not sure where the gravity feed definition is, I'll try and find it when I get chance. It may have been a rule made by the tournament owners/organisers at the time. I remember there being a meeting to discuss it and Tex asking for a definition of gravity feed, which they supplied as above.


Much higher standards. What are those? Can I see those to?

I'm guessing you mean ASTM standards? yes you can see those also.


3 grams is 3 grams at 300fps. Impact force starts with distance. Todays game is played much closer then it used to be.

Standards for paintball weight were implemented by the ASTM to take into account projectile energy. These standards are available for you to see. In the early days and in the days of splatmasters there weren't such standards and so often paint was much heavier with a higher impact energy at equivalent ranges.


But as for working within the rules? I am pretty sure that NXL allowing f/a, or the production of markers that have ramping capabilities do not fall within the rules. Most people are shooting faster because the software is enhancing the rof in some way...

It falls within their rules now so it's allowed :rolleyes: . The fact that we got there because people were cheating (and sometimes yes manufacturers cheating) that doesn't mean that everyone cheats the rules of breaks the standard when they try to make new products. The NXL was limited to a very small group of people who decided to make their own rules and standards.

When talking about fitting within the rules we were discussing hoppers. I personally have BIG issues with the manufacturers of cheater boards.


Arnt mask lenses only tested to withstand 13bps? What happens when someone is hit at 15bps, 18bps, 20
+bps ? Not saying your completely wrong, because I know I dont know everything, just what is in front of me. Maybe you can further enhance my understanding? Thanks manike!

I don't believe there is a required BPS test for goggles, But I would need to check the ASTM guidelines to be certain. There is a test for a number of impacts though.

[manike]

I'm sure you'll find that the weight has changed very little.

Also, I believe that the impact force and fps safety limits are designed specifically for bouncers.

Otherwise, the standards are complete hooey from an engineering safety perspective.

Erm, I think you will find the weight has changed significantly. In the early days many balls were up over 3.4g and some towards 3.8g.

Now they range from around 2.8 (cheap crap) to around 3.4 heavy tourny paint. Most are around 3.2 IIRC. ASTM standard is 3.2g.

Safety tests for ASTM standards must be conducted with paintballs that are less than 8 months old.

[SlartyBartFast]

But I'd like to know what you mean by "complete hooey from an engineering safety perspective"? What would, in your opinion, be pushing the limits of safety strictly from an engineering safety perspective? (Not being a jerk, I really want to know.)

From a safety perspective, the limits have to be designed for worst case scenario. That means paintballs hitting and not breaking.

I'd actually question the ASTM standards for goggle testing.

Because if energy is disipated by the paintball breaking, safety is dependant not on the safety equipment, but on the manufacturing of the paintballs.

If we are going to place or safety with the manufacturing of the paintballs, there needs to be a maximum drop test value allowed for paint...

I will grant that my nasty experience may have been due to a hot shot. But that's another failure in paintball. There's no built in safety to avoid dangerously fast paintballs. (not saying that would be easy or practical)

[Tyger]

Just an afterthought.

The original F/A guns were the SMG 60. This paintgun shot a .62 caliber ball at 325 FPS, and left some horrific welts / wounds. It shot at 9 BPS with a 20 round "Stripper clip" feed. It was argued that the ball used the same "thickness" shell as the .68 caliber ball, and even though it was less overall weight, the impact energy was higher.

The whole point became moot becasue the .62 caliber ball was (mercifully) phased out, as was full auto. I think there's a lot of argument based on the past of F/A, but we're not accounting for the smaller ball with the "Thicker" shells. Now we've got, effectively, F/A guns with .68 balls. The .68 ball is heavier than the .62 caliber ball, and we have the ability to ramp them up to 20+ BPS, which is double the SMG-60.

Just more to think about.

-Tyger

[LaW]

It falls within their rules now so it's allowed :rolleyes: . The fact that we got there because people were cheating (and sometimes yes manufacturers cheating) that doesn't mean that everyone cheats the rules of breaks the standard when they try to make new products. The NXL was limited to a very small group of people who decided to make their own rules and standards.

When talking about fitting within the rules we were discussing hoppers. I personally have BIG issues with the manufacturers of cheater boards.



I realize not everyone cheats or breaks standards. I guess what it comes down to is the need for one set of standards. Not sure if I am looking at this correctly but basically you have different organizations that have come up with their own standards?

If we are discussing hoppers then thats cool I am with you there, and I too have big problems with cheater boards.

[manike]

From a safety perspective, the limits have to be designed for worst case scenario. That means paintballs hitting and not breaking.

I'd actually question the ASTM standards for goggle testing.

Because if energy is disipated by the paintball breaking, safety is dependant not on the safety equipment, but on the manufacturing of the paintballs.

If we are going to place or safety with the manufacturing of the paintballs, there needs to be a maximum drop test value allowed for paint...

Agreed. That's why there is a standard for goggles and a standard for paintballs.

There is a standard impact test on goggles at 400fps and from under 1.5m.

There is a standard test for paintball breakage.

It's all in the ASTM standards.

[SlartyBartFast]

It's all in the ASTM standards.

The problem is that all the ASTM standards aren't in paintball markers or equipment...

[teufelhunden]

I will grant that my nasty experience may have been due to a hot shot. But that's another failure in paintball. There's no built in safety to avoid dangerously fast paintballs. (not saying that would be easy or practical)


Other than chrono before a game? Albeit, when I ball I'm probably safer than Johnny Sniper, because I play with guys who have markers that aren't going to spike 30 FPS to 330..

[manike]

I realize not everyone cheats or breaks standards. I guess what it comes down to is the need for one set of standards. Not sure if I am looking at this correctly but basically you have different organizations that have come up with their own standards?

There is only 'one' set of standards. I work damn hard to make sure stuff I make is within those standards as far as is possible with my position and responsibilities. It's the ASTM standards. Available to everyone if you want to pay the ASTM for them.

There are different sets of 'rules' depending on your field, the owners, the players the tournament series etc. That's not an issue for manufacturers to be concerned about unless they want they equipment to be allowed in said events or on said fields of play.

[SlartyBartFast]

Other than chrono before a game? Albeit, when I ball I'm probably safer than Johnny Sniper, because I play with guys who have markers that aren't going to spike 30 FPS to 330..

Well, in the current age of HPA, nasty spikes are rare unless the player adjusts their gun on field.

Anything working on CO2 could spike if liquid got through the valve. The old SP magic box was only really marketed for that....

But with electronic guns that can modify velocity, is a pre-game chrono sufficient?

[manike]

The problem is that all the ASTM standards aren't in paintball markers or equipment...

You will find it is in goggles, and in 99.999% of paintballs. Gun's are one area where some manufacturers don't follow the ASTM standards rigorously and take on the liability to a greater extent.

[Tyger]

From a safety perspective, the limits have to be designed for worst case scenario. That means paintballs hitting and not breaking.

I'd actually question the ASTM standards for goggle testing.

Because if energy is disipated by the paintball breaking, safety is dependant not on the safety equipment, but on the manufacturing of the paintballs.


That really doesn't answer my question. "What would, in your opinion, be pushing the limits of safety strictly from an engineering safety perspective?" I won't use it as a basis for testing, but I'd like to know what FPS you would consider as being within safe parameters? You said that the 300 FPS was "designed specifically for bouncers". So, I'm still being serious, what would you consider a "safe" FPS limit?

I do realise that without testing you can't give me a definate answer, but I'd like a ballpark figure to work with for your opinion.

-Tyger

[SlartyBartFast]

That really doesn't answer my question. "What would, in your opinion, be pushing the limits of safety strictly from an engineering safety perspective?" I won't use it as a basis for testing, but I'd like to know what FPS you would consider as being within safe parameters? You said that the 300 FPS was "designed specifically for bouncers". So, I'm still being serious, what would you consider a "safe" FPS limit?

I do realise that without testing you can't give me a definate answer, but I'd like a ballpark figure to work with for your opinion.

-Tyger

Don't know. But the insurance people seem to think that 300fps is the maximum energy a paintball should have. (and actually, the shot that put me unconcious was from a marker that wouldn't crono faster than 230-250ish)

My issue wasn't with the speed. It was with Manike's assertion that somehow the brittle paint being used now made head shots safer.

Can't have safety stadards based on the paint breaking. The standards have to be based on when it goes wrong. Thickest allowed shell, with the heaviest possible ball, travelling at the fasted allowed speed, failing to break on impact.

[manike]

That really doesn't answer my question. "What would, in your opinion, be pushing the limits of safety strictly from an engineering safety perspective?" I won't use it as a basis for testing, but I'd like to know what FPS you would consider as being within safe parameters? You said that the 300 FPS was "designed specifically for bouncers". So, I'm still being serious, what would you consider a "safe" FPS limit?

I do realise that without testing you can't give me a definate answer, but I'd like a ballpark figure to work with for your opinion.

-Tyger


400fps at under 1.5M with current paintballs... is quite a significant impact. Tests are conducted usually at around 1 shot per second, at that velocity.

The energy in a 3.2g paintball at 300fps = approx 10ft lbs. The energy at 400fps = 18ft lbs.

A paintball at 300fps but weighing 3.4g = 10.5ft lbs and at 3.8g = 11.72ft lbs.

With a BPS test how many shots should you count? and over what area? I don't think anyone is going to hold their head in one spot and let a long string all impact it.

Human perception is around 0.1 second, most people will move after the first impact so any string of shots will be over a moving target, not in one specific area.

[manike]

My issue wasn't with the speed. It was with Manike's assertion that somehow the brittle paint being used now made head shots safer.

But it absolutely does. :confused: A head shot now with a lighter more brittle ball will put less energy into the target than a head shot 10 years ago with a heavier more robust ball.


Can't have safety stadards based on the paint breaking. The standards have to be based on when it goes wrong. Thickest allowed shell, with the heaviest possible ball, travelling at the fasted allowed speed, failing to break on impact.

:confused: You have to be kidding.

The worst case scenario is a gun shooting over 600fps with a solid projetile. It's possible. It's rare, and unlikely and if we had to protect against that people wouldn't be able to play in the gear they are wearing.

Just like with an aeroplane, if you had to protect the fuselage against an engine failure you would never get the plane off the ground. You just have to accept that engine failures are statistically extremely unlikely and protect as best you can for common situations.

There is a standard for paintballs, this standard ball is used in the test for goggles, but at very high velocities which is a 'worst case realistic scenario'.

[SlartyBartFast]

Human perception is around 0.1 second, most people will move after the first impact so any string of shots will be over a moving target, not in one specific area.

Sorry, rubbish.

It would be true if the paintballs were all travelling exactly the same path from a stable shooting platform. But they aren't. Paintballs aren't accurate, and the shooter is following the target.

So when you get bunkered and the twib shoots a string with their legal electro at FA @ 15bps (at least NXL), you might be under the on-slaught for a given time and easily be hit multiple times.

Seems to me that bunkering with even a single headshot should be in the rules as a MAJOR infraction (and automatically assesed, no arguing you weren't used to the trigger like the jerk responsible for the 12 to another players head in a tourney). Multiple hits should also automatically result in stiff penalties.

Really, what it all comes down to. The spine-less haphazard rules and enforcement.

[Tyger]

Human perception is around 0.1 second, most people will move after the first impact so any string of shots will be over a moving target, not in one specific area.

Ok, so logically, if you've got 20 PBS in the air, you could be impacted 2 times in .1 seconds before your body flinches. Depending on how fast you move, it could be argued that there would be a fairly tight grouping of 3-5 impacts within a few inches of each other? This is assuming the player shooting keeps a steady hand as he's moving the trigger.

Also keep in mind a lot of players have "Trained" themselves not to flinch at all, so you could have multiple impacts. I recall seeing video from several tournaments of players being shot 5-10 times before they could get a gun in the air, and usually from point blank range as the guy gets bunkered.

Edit Add : Slarty brings up a good point about taking the onslought. Every paint box has on it "Do not shoot at another person within 20 feet". We regularly break this safety rule on the box!

I'm not the brightest bulb in the box, but it seems to me that it's a little dangerous out there lately.

-Tyger

[manike]

Can't have safety stadards based on the paint breaking. The standards have to be based on when it goes wrong. Thickest allowed shell, with the heaviest possible ball, travelling at the fasted allowed speed, failing to break on impact.

You realise that so far (touch wood) there hasn't been even a SINGLE blinding incident where the person shot was wearing goggles?

Statistically that's huge! There must be an astounding number of incidents of people getting shot in the goggles in paintball every year.

I think that goes to show that the standards are working and safe so far. Touch wood. :)

[ilikePB]

Seems to me that bunkering with even a single headshot should be in the rules as a MAJOR infraction.
That's not really possible, when you bunker someone they tend to move, if they move their head you might hit them there accidentaly. I have shot people in the head while bunkering them and have recieved the same, I highly doubt very many people do it on purpose. It just can't be controlled the majority of the time and therefore should not be a rule.

[SlartyBartFast]

You realise that so far (touch wood) there hasn't been even a SINGLE blinding incident where the person shot was wearing goggles?

I don't question the safety of the goggles. They've been safe since we abandoned shop glasses.

I question the damage to soft-tissue we're expected to endure and the possible dangers of headshots.

Seems to me that despite paintball's safety record, there's a number of players reporting serious head injury. I've seen a ref pulled off-field in an ambulance due to a headshot.

One day these injuries might start hitting the statistics...

[SlartyBartFast]

That's not really possible, when you bunker someone they tend to move, if they move their head you might hit them there accidentaly. I have shot people in the head while bunkering them and have recieved the same, I highly doubt very many people do it on purpose. It just can't be controlled the majority of the time and therefore should not be a rule.

Couldn't disagree more. When I started playing, on a couple of fields it was a rule that if you were hit in the head BOTH players were eliminated (on one only the shooter was eliminated).

Sometimes a rule doesn't need to prove intent. Interference is a penalty in basketball regardless of whether you meant to do it or not and whether the other player ran into you or not. It's your responsibility.

In all fairness, I think that not surrendering after being bunkered should be a penalty. After all, your sorry backside was beat. You're just looking to rely on luck or cheat by arguing double elimination if your spinning around on the person bunkering you.

[manike]

Ok, so logically, if you've got 20 PBS in the air, you could be impacted 2 times in .1 seconds before your body flinches. Depending on how fast you move, it could be argued that there would be a fairly tight grouping of 3-5 impacts within a few inches of each other? This is assuming the player shooting keeps a steady hand as he's moving the trigger.

Also keep in mind a lot of players have "Trained" themselves not to flinch at all, so you could have multiple impacts. I recall seeing video from several tournaments of players being shot 5-10 times before they could get a gun in the air, and usually from point blank range as the guy gets bunkered.

I'm not the brightest bulb in the box, but it seems to me that it's a little dangerous out there lately.

-Tyger

Very few, people are achieving 20bps in play, even with cheater boards. I don't care what your LCD/Red Chrono/mom with a stop watch says, it's BS.

Accuracy of paintballs is such that unless being bunkered the shots are unlikely to group very closely.

I don't know of ANY player that wouldn't flinch if taking more than one or two shots to the head.

I have no real concern of a problem if taking 10 or 20 or even 100 shots in the goggles, unless the goggles themselves weren't worn properly.

If someone does that to you, call the police and have them imprisoned for assault with intent.

In all my tests I would have to reload my hopper and keep shooting to do anything remotely worth worrying about to a goggles mannequin. I did informal tests with a timmy set to bounce as much as possible and Reloader B so the rate of fire is on par with most realistic situations.

I've always believe some kind of head protection on the areas not covered by goggles should be mandatory.

[ilikePB]

Couldn't disagree more. When I started playing, on a couple of fields it was a rule that if you were hit in the head BOTH players were eliminated (on one only the shooter was eliminated).

Sometimes a rule doesn't need to prove intent. Interference is a penalty in basketball regardless of whether you meant to do it or not and whether the other player ran into you or not. It's your responsibility.

In all fairness, I think that not surrendering after being bunkered should be a penalty. After all, your sorry backside was beat. You're just looking to rely on luck or cheat by arguing double elimination if your spinning around on the person bunkering you.
Great, why don't you go tell that to the NPPL, PSP, or NXL. I'm sure they'll agree with you and implement this awesome idea.

P.S. That was sarcasm in case you didn't catch it.

[hitech]

The spine-less haphazard rules and enforcement.

And THAT is the bottom line. :(

[manike]

Sorry, rubbish.

It would be true if the paintballs were all travelling exactly the same path from a stable shooting platform. But they aren't. Paintballs aren't accurate, and the shooter is following the target.

EXACTLY! Proves my point that the balls are unlikely to impact in the same spot.


So when you get bunkered and the twib shoots a string with their legal electro at FA @ 15bps (at least NXL), you might be under the on-slaught for a given time and easily be hit multiple times.

Agreed, but the chances of this all happening in the same spot such that to bring in the question of safety or the goggles is as you put it 'rubbish'. :)


I don't question the safety of the goggles. They've been safe since we abandoned shop glasses

Err... then why are we arguing about that? That's what I am argueing about. :D It's what I've been argueing about all along.


I question the damage to soft-tissue we're expected to endure and the possible dangers of headshots.

Seems to me that despite paintball's safety record, there's a number of players reporting serious head injury. I've seen a ref pulled off-field in an ambulance due to a headshot.

One day these injuries might start hitting the statistics...

WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY THAT!

I agree soft tissue should have a mandatory safety requirement. But there isn't a standard for one. I don't ever play without something protecting my head. I also tend to have a throat guard and a CUP!

You were questioning the goggle standards. Not the lack of standards. That's a totally different issue. :rofl:

[ilikePB]

I don't know much about medical stuff so maybe someone can help me out on this one. I have been shot in the head more than once at pretty much point blank range and it hurt and blead, but that's it. What's the difference between me getting shot that close and not having to go to the hospital and others having a similar experience have to go to the hospital? I'm just not seeing the safety issue, I've been shot so many times at close range and never did it cross my mind that I might need to get medical attention. What am I missing?

[manike]

I don't know much about medical stuff so maybe someone can help me out on this one. I have been shot in the head more than once at pretty much point blank range and it hurt and blead, but that's it. What's the difference between me getting shot that close and not having to go to the hospital and others having a similar experience have to go to the hospital? I'm just not seeing the safety issue, I've been shot so many times at close range and never did it cross my mind that I might need to get medical attention. What am I missing?

Everyone takes, and reacts to impacts differently.

I do think people should have to wear a head covering of some sort, but it's not an insurance requirement and not seen as a safety threat yet, so they don't. It may happen in the future though.

[ilikePB]

Everyone takes, and reacts to impacts differently.

I do think people should have to wear a head covering of some sort, but it's not an insurance requirement and not seen as a safety threat yet, so they don't. It may happen in the future though.
I normally have buzzed hair, but I also normally wear a sandana, so that may help soften the impact some.

[teufelhunden]

I do think people should have to wear a head covering of some sort, but it's not an insurance requirement and not seen as a safety threat yet, so they don't. It may happen in the future though.

Everybody should wear a head covering or 5 not for safety, but for bounces :p

[hitech]

I've been shot so many times at close range and never did it cross my mind that I might need to get medical attention. What am I missing?

It depends on where you are hit. A buddy of mine was hit just behind the ear while reffing. Dropped him to the ground and put him out of commission for two days. He couldn’t stand without getting dizzy (probably had a concussion). I've been hit in the head at MUCH higher than 300 fps (approx. 400 fps) without injury (dizzy for just a second). It all depends on where you are hit.

[GT]

Very few, people are achieving 20bps in play, even with cheater boards. I don't care what your LCD/Red Chrono/mom with a stop watch says, it's BS.



All I gots to say about that :headbang: . Don’t say that to loud Manike, I would hate it if you couldn't sell one billion timmies this year to kids under the assumption that they can shoot 20+ ;)


Allow me to interject some terminology. In the safety world, non-ionizing radiation, i.e. lasers we have a term called the “aversion response.” This is when an individual is hit with a 3a laser or lower right in the eye. Your immediate response is to look away, thus why laser pointers are not dangerous.

This response is natural to any object moving that quickly and is detected by your peripheral vision. Now if you’re too stupid or under the influence of drugs and alcohol you can suppress that response and take multiple hits to the face, I would suggest against that.

The question is not what is most safe, consequently, it’s not even a question of safety, rather who has insurance and who doesn’t…..

[Glickman]

just would like to point out you can easily turn it off, and if u ask for it, its a free sofware upgrade

sounds like just a fun shooting mode, like hybrid on emags

im getting it because:
1- its free, and it even includes new debounce features
2- it will just be fun to shoot at targets and wahtnot


also, its hard to get past 15 bps without some sort of bounce, which many dont notice, but its on ALL guns, debounce is supposed to minimize it, but its a electronic software trying to decipher mechanical movement

[Sac]

ok im not trying to call anyone a wuss or say being overshot is ok, but as a tournament player ive gotten used to it, i usually wont even notice being it an extra 4 or 5 times than i should, because its part of the game. i know 20 bps in the air is alot, but think about it, how accurate are your guys guns when shooting 20 bps? i know im not gonna hit my target with all 20 balls.

[50 cal]

Another feature for some bonehead to abuse. :rolleyes:

[Glickman]

Another feature for some bonehead to abuse. :rolleyes:
well, from what i see, its safer then a "non-regulated" bounce, such as a shocker without the programming, or a viking, or anything else for that matter.

not saying its safe, but its safer than non-regulated bounce

"ok im not trying to call anyone a wuss or say being overshot is ok, but as a tournament player ive gotten used to"


recballers seem to have a problem with this, while most tourny players dont.

ive been bunkered with 5-6 balls, and in all truthfulness, i didnt feel it. it was my first tourntament, and ive never had such adrenalin, i didnt really feel any shots that day
(dont get me wrong either, im not thick skinned, 100 lbs 5'5")

[Miscue]

Very few, people are achieving 20bps in play, even with cheater boards. I don't care what your LCD/Red Chrono/mom with a stop watch says, it's BS.



Hurm... :p

[RTDynaflow]

May I suggest you guys go back and read the post that quoted me... I was hit with around 13 or so balls, starting at the mid neck going up to the bottom section of my head. Do something... run two fingers up the back of your neck. Following me some far? You will notice a little spot where your skull starts... take your fingers and slam them into the back of your head right below there.... now do it on the top of your head. See a difference?

And as far as the the .1 perception time. :rolleyes: ... Ok, I agree. However my reaction time is .251. That is at my fastest. Knowing I was about to interact with soemthing. It takes me 0.251 of a between when I see a color on my monitor and I click my mouse. Now, translate that into someone not expecting it and the movement from a finger click to your entire body/head section by a foot. You are geting closer to 1+ seconds. Saying that people won't get hit in the head more then 3+ balls, when you have a string of 15 balls come from close range is so far from obsurd it sickens me. Didn't Chris Lasoya put someone in the hospital from a bouncing timmy? What was it 10+ balls to the head? How can anyone sit here and argue you won't get hit 10+ times... If you can, obviously you are delusional. I was. Hit 10+ times that is. Delusional as well - after passing out from that.

Like I said in the previous thread about this - Limiting the markers is not what will stop injuries, limiting bounce, ramp and FA will. The NXL rule is great in the aspect it limits BPS. However, it is completely useless, it allows FA and this will cause more injuries then any ridiculous semi ROF.

Whatever happened to the "black box" idea miscue? Honestly if you could pitch that to the NPPL in a way it wouldn't hinder the game, it could have some amazing results.


"ok im not trying to call anyone a wuss or say being overshot is ok, but as a tournament player ive gotten used to"


recballers seem to have a problem with this, while most tourny players dont.

ive been bunkered with 5-6 balls, and in all truthfulness, i didnt feel it. it was my first tourntament, and ive never had such adrenalin, i didnt really feel any shots that day
(dont get me wrong either, im not thick skinned, 100 lbs 5'5")

You are forgetting something. Recballers often are only wearing a thin T shirt, usually without long sleeves. Just a mask, no beenie, or cap. Tourny players... Well usually, you have a regular white T, then a jersey on top. You have thick baggy pants and a baseballcap/some kind of head protection that goes down to the back of the neck. Gloves on, though with two fingers cut off (so we can try and obtain a slightly higher rof..), still offer a good deal of wrist and hand protection. <---- your thick skin. Go and get bunkered with 6 shots on your bare back. Come back and tell me you didn't feel it.

Electros that spike velocity... I would enjoy to kick the persons *** who decided to try this... I would assume you mean it sets the dwell down to 1 millisecond to chrono, then increases it back to 6 or 8? This is far worse then the BPS issue. This could cause serious injury with only one ball.

RTD

[ghideon]

It depends on where you are hit. A buddy of mine was hit just behind the ear while reffing. Dropped him to the ground and put him out of commission for two days. He couldn’t stand without getting dizzy (probably had a concussion). I've been hit in the head at MUCH higher than 300 fps (approx. 400 fps) without injury (dizzy for just a second). It all depends on where you are hit.

In college I took one round (from a distance) to the back of the head. This was on a Saturday. That night, I started getting dizzy. On Sunday morning I sat up in my bed and the whole room starting spinning (it sucked, bad). The flight doc told me it was a slight concussion, I had no LOC.

I was a freshman at a military service academy at the time. I couldn't walk down the hall at attention in a straight line (caught some flak for that). Ended up putting me on a clear liquid diet (was so dizzy could hardly hold anything down), and putting my butt on bed rest for a day.

A year after that I would get dizziness/headaches every now and then. This was about seven years ago, and luckily I haven't had a problem since.

This was in 1997. We should have had full head protection awhile ago.

[CoolHand]

OK, I want someone to explain to me how a ramping (or rebound) board that essentially goes full auto when you reach X bps is more dangerous than a marker with a semi only board that's set up to bounce (either through low debounce settings, or just a wonky microswitch, trigger inertia, etc.).

Before the SP board starts to ramp (even on rebound 5, the highest setting), you have to reach 7bps. Now, I'm no NPPL back man, but that would be pretty hard for me to do with a single finger (and I've never seen anyone walking the trigger while bunkering someone :rofl: ).

Here's how I see it:

Mad uncontrolable bounce = bad
Rebound, Ramp, NXL FA, etc with a BPS limit (that is actually enforced) = better
Uncapped semi auto ROF by any means ('cause we're back to the bounce again) = bad
Capped Semi Only (that's actually enforced) = best

Here's how I see it. I would much rather see someone hold the trigger down after four shots and get FA at 15 bps that actually stops when they release the trigger, verses the wild bouncing marker that may shoot 30 or 40 times all by itself if the mood takes it. Both will allow most anyone to attain stupid rates of fire easily, but the former is many orders of magnitude easier to control than the latter.

Personally, I don't care if players use rebound, FA, etc. All I care about is that the marker stops shooting when they stop pulling the trigger.

The rest is up to them.

Also, on a side note, I think the human body can be conditioned to sustain impact and survive unscathed (to a certain point). I have raced stock cars for going on a decade now, and in that time, I have had my fair share of impacts at >60mph (which is a damned hard hit). Paintballs just sorta sting for me. I bleed on occasion, especially if I get hit on the soft part under my arms. I have taken many many head shots (including a nice group of ten to the same spot that leveled that other fellow), temple shots, throat shots, most of them while reffing, and short of some really wild hair (comliments of the Diablo hair gel), I suffered no ill effects (besides a welt). Does this mean I'm superman? I doubt that. (you would too, if you've ever seen me. :rofl: ) I think its due to the fact that I am used to taking hard core impacts, so my brain is used to running into my skull. (maybe its got a callus built up. ;) ) Whatever the reason, I think that injury is much more dependent on the person than the rules or the equipment.

Bottom line, if you turn the game down so that no one could ever get injured by a paintball impact, I think what we'll be left with will closely resemble something already marketed by Hasbro . . . . . . under the Nerf brand name.

[Beemer]

I think that injury is much more dependent on the person than the rules or the equipment.


Ya ok. Then take away your 3 point seat harness, rollbar and fullface helmet when you race.
What about that special neck brace the indy guys wear now. Will they let you race with an open face helmet.



Bottom line, if you turn the game down so that no one could ever get injured by a paintball impact, I think what we'll be left with will closely resemble something already marketed by Hasbro . . . . . . under the Nerf brand name.


Who said turn it down. We just need the safety gear to keep up just like it has in every other sports gear. And the standards to be followed that are put down

[teufelhunden]

Ya ok. Then take away your 3 point seat harness, rollbar and fullface helmet when you race.
What about that special neck brace the indy guys wear now. Will they let you race with an open face helmet.





Who said turn it down. We just need the safety gear to keep up just like it has in every other sports gear. And the standards to be followed that are put down


I hope he's wearing a 5 point harness..

But that's beside the point. Because your body still slams into the harness, your head still slams into the seat.. it's not like he's coushined in a pillow of down feathers.

[CoolHand]

Ya ok. Then take away your 3 point seat harness, rollbar and fullface helmet when you race.
What about that special neck brace the indy guys wear now. Will they let you race with an open face helmet.


Yes we can run an open face if we want (although on the dirt, I'd advise againt it), and I don't wear a neck roll.

Touche' on the seat belts, perhaps I should have been more specific.

Racers get killed every year, wearing the exact same suit, helmet, and belts that I use. They are what I would consider the minimum amount of safety gear, as you all would consider a mask and goggles to be the minimum amount of PB safety gear.

What I am saying is that some people are just more susceptable to injury than others, no matter how much you pad yourself, or how good your belts are, or whatever. That's what I am saying. That changing the rules to make the markers slower, or whatever is not the solution (just like changing the rules to make race cars slower doesn't keep people from getting killed).

You can make the head gear better all you want (and you should, don't get me wrong), but some people are still going to get hurt. Everyone has to decide for themselves how much risk is too much. Personally, I worry about the way people treat their pressure vessels more than my goggles breaking, or getting shot 47 times in the mellon.

This is whole discussion is kinda academic at this point anyway.

In reality, if you don't like FA or Ramping or whateve, don't use it (its your choice). If they use it where you play, and you don't like it, go play somewhere else. Its a free country, and if the field owner (the guy who defines the limits) says its OK, then its your choice to either play like they do, play the way you want to with them, or take your business elsewhere. There is no reason that you (the offended party) need to campagain to change the rules at that local, you just need to find someplace that jives with how you want to play.

But that's just my zeal for personal freedoms rearing it ugly head. I don't think that the interests of the one should be able to overide the interests of the many, when the issue is not a matter of life and death.

As always, your mileage may vary.

[RTDynaflow]

^^^^^ [edit] this is to beamer post..
agree 100%.

Well, usually it is a 5 point harness.. but anyway. It really isn't something of conditioning. It is more of how different things affect people differently. Also, exact spot where something hits. Your helmet has padding and lots of it. The impact isn't nearly as direct a force as a paintball. If a paintball is to hit you in the right place on the back of the neck/head area it can and will cause some rather serious injuries. No matter how many hits that spot takes and how many concussions you get, I don't think your spine or brain is going to develop a special "cushion" for this. If anything, it will get worse every time.

I would love to hear a doctors standpoint on this. Seriously, someone who went to school for 16 years. A brain surgeon possibly. What would one say about blunt force trauma? And paintball in general. This would be quite interesting, and most irefutable by one of us non doctor type...

RTD

[CoolHand]

. . . .I don't think your spine or brain is going to develop a special "cushion" for this. If anything, it will get worse every time.. . . . . RTD

Seriously, am I going to have to start outlining all my jokes with markers?

That crack about the callus was a joke. Successive concussions get progressively worse, and harder to get over as you go. (this is medical fact, but I'm not a doctor . . . . however, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express . . . . . :rofl: )

This is going no where, and my point (I'm pretty sure I had one :tard: ) has been lost in all the back and forth. I'm not gonna go try to dig it out.

Have a good discussion guys.

[RTDynaflow]

Seriously, am I going to have to start outlining all my jokes with markers?

That crack about the callus was a joke. Successive concussions get progressively worse, and harder to get over as you go. (this is medical fact, but I'm not a doctor . . . . however, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express . . . . . :rofl: )

This is going no where, and my point (I'm pretty sure I had one :tard: ) has been lost in all the back and forth. I'm not gonna go try to dig it out.

Have a good discussion guys.


LOL I know. I need to do the same, as you missed my jjoke about your joke... I think we are all in a fairly well agreement that we need some better safety equipment and regulations. Just to what degree is where everyone is arguing.

RTD

[Lohman446]

Ok.. here are your options, because at my field the rule is not no bounce. IT is if you are closer than 20 feet and hit (and break) a single player who is not making an agressive act more then 4 times he is still in and you are out. Bounce is legal, you have to be able to control it.

Four shots adn then insane is perfect for me - or seven. And its not hard to achieve on the Shocker trigger :clap: