Its been hard, but im gettin out of the mag family

[SOAD8789]

I sold my nice retro valve, level 10'd, intelliframed mag. it shot wonderfully, but now im gettin...

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=624917

ive wanted an omen ever since they came out, and now i'm getting one. I'll probably still get a mag just as a backup...sometime, once i get the money. its gonna be difficult having to actually mess with my guns settings when i go to play...but oh well. i'll still be hangin around here...

[RRfireblade]

Mmm, just so we understand you correctly, you sold your RT mag in order to get a PMI blowback?

And then you'd like to get another Mag as a backup to that?

For some reason I'm a little confused.

But......congrats.....I think. :D

[LaW]

Holy downgrade batman!

If it were me the whole thinking process would be reversed BUT... to each their own

[teufelhunden]

Wow, I'm quite sorry for you.

Give it 3 days of play, that gun will be back on Nation.

[frontrunner]

say it aint so man say it aint so

[Chronobreak]

i woulda kept the mag omen is a def downgrade btw they chop like mad(from what ice seen about 9 so far)

but if u like it thats all that matters

[SCpoloRicker]

Be nice.

Enjoy your marker. From what I know, Omens are not blowbacks. They are closed bolt, and ram operated electros. So its similar to a cocker in that it's closed bolt (which allows gnomes to give it more accuracy ;) ), but unlike an E-cocker, its ram operated (not hammer and sear like low end blowbacks).

Chopping issues center around the feeding system, which I do not know enough to comment on technically. Laymans, I take it as a different system, but one that works once it is tuned to the user and equipment.

People used this argument with COPS and angels. I personally think theres a large amount of RTFM.

[teufelhunden]

Be nice.

Enjoy your marker. From what I know, Omens are not blowbacks. They are closed bolt, and ram operated electros. So its similar to a cocker in that it's closed bolt (which allows gnomes to give it more accuracy ;) ), but unlike an E-cocker, its ram operated (not hammer and sear like low end blowbacks).

Chopping issues center around the feeding system, which I do not know enough to comment on technically. Laymans, I take it as a different system, but one that works once it is tuned to the user and equipment.

People used this argument with COPS and angels. I personally think theres a large amount of RTFM.

You, uhm, know wrong. They are STBBs like any Pirhana, except they're closed bolt and have that cam feed waste of life.

[Carbon]

Congrats, it is always nice to play the field of the different guns out there. Regardless of how the omen operates, hope its suits you. Just letting you know.....you be back! :)

[BD_Paintball]

enjoy the omen man. me and my bro both traded our mags for imps and its like night and day, i love my imp. rock the omen

[gc82000]

What Carbon said. Hope the gun fits you, and rock it well. :headbang:

[tyrion2323]

Wow - a lot of hate from people who've probably never shot a tuned omen.

First of all, this trade is an UPGRADE for you. I shoot an Omen, shot a Logic Frame'd Mag and then traded it for WAS'd Imp and I can tell you for sure that that Omen outperforms the mag, hands down!

Don't get sucked into the blind 'mag cult on AO. Anything that's not a mag is automatically deemed "a downgrade." Omens are easy to tech, easily maintained, and the customer service is THE BEST ON THE MARKET. Better than AGD. They don't charge - it's a lifetime warranty with free repairs. Just realize that these are the same people who deemed trading a mech mag for a Matrix a "downgrade." Blind loyalty can't compete with true logic, but these people certainly try. That's why I don't post here much anymore - too culty.

The Omen CANNOT chop a ball if properly tuned. Just like an untuned Level10 will suck, an untuned CAM feed will chop. The thing is, CAMs are easily adjusted without taking the marker apart.

As for the functioning of the marker - it's a closed-bolt blow back. The CAM feed operates directly off of the bolt, so EVERY TIME the bolt moves, the CAM anti-chop paddles completely load a ball into the chamber. PLUS, with the new 1.5 board and HALO arms, you can shoot up to 25 bps and use a HALO.

Don't listen to all of these fools. They probably haven't ever even shot a properly tuned omen. I had loads of problems with my "dependable mag," but my Omen has always been perfect.

Good luck, and kick butt!

[LaW]

Wow - a lot of hate from people who've probably never shot a tuned omen.

First of all, this trade is an UPGRADE for you. I shoot an Omen, shot a Logic Frame'd Mag and then traded it for WAS'd Imp and I can tell you for sure that that Omen outperforms the mag, hands down!

Don't get sucked into the blind 'mag cult on AO. Anything that's not a mag is automatically deemed "a downgrade." Omens are easy to tech, easily maintained, and the customer service is THE BEST ON THE MARKET. Better than AGD. They don't charge - it's a lifetime warranty with free repairs. Just realize that these are the same people who deemed trading a mech mag for a Matrix a "downgrade." Blind loyalty can't compete with true logic, but these people certainly try. That's why I don't post here much anymore - too culty.

The Omen CANNOT chop a ball if properly tuned. Just like an untuned Level10 will suck, an untuned CAM feed will chop. The thing is, CAMs are easily adjusted without taking the marker apart.

As for the functioning of the marker - it's a closed-bolt blow back. The CAM feed operates directly off of the bolt, so EVERY TIME the bolt moves, the CAM anti-chop paddles completely load a ball into the chamber. PLUS, with the new 1.5 board and HALO arms, you can shoot up to 25 bps and use a HALO.

Don't listen to all of these fools. They probably haven't ever even shot a properly tuned omen. I had loads of problems with my "dependable mag," but my Omen has always been perfect.

Good luck, and kick butt!

Have I shot one, yes. Do I think its better than some of the mags I have shot? not really. Can it be a reliable, fast , cheap marker? Yeah sure. Have I seen a lot of problems with omens? I have... Some people have their opinions. I admit that not every omen has problems and some are perfect as you say but there are also plenty out there that are very problematic as well... To each their own. I still stick by my opinion that it is a downgrade.

[tyrion2323]

Let's settle this:

<table border="1" width="70%">
<tr>
<td width="72%"><b>Description</b></td>
<td width="16%"><b>Omen</b></td>
<td width="14%"><b>Mag</b></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="72%">Top LEGAL speed (no bounce, RT, Run-away)</td>
<td width="16%">15-20</td>
<td width="14%">9-13</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="72%">Mechanical Anti-Chop System </td>
<td width="16%">YES</td>
<td width="14%">YES</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="72%">Fully Externally adjustable (quickly between games)</td>
<td width="16%">YES</td>
<td width="14%">NO</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="72%">Trigger Weight (stock)</td>
<td width="16%">~60g</td>
<td width="14%">~1lb</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="72%">Completely free, all encompassing warranty</td>
<td width="16%">YES</td>
<td width="14%">NO</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="72%">Easily Tuned</td>
<td width="16%">YES</td>
<td width="14%">YES</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="72%">Reliable</td>
<td width="16%">YES</td>
<td width="14%">YES</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="72%">If tuned correctly, will NOT chop</td>
<td width="16%">YES</td>
<td width="14%">YES</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="72%">ASA Included (stock)</td>
<td width="16%">Rail on/off</td>
<td width="14%">normal ASA</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="72%">Compatible with all loaders</td>
<td width="16%">YES</td>
<td width="14%">YES</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="72%">Cool moving back block</td>
<td width="16%">YES</td>
<td width="14%">NO</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="72%">Price</td>
<td width="16%">$450</td>
<td width="14%">$528</td>
</tr>
</table>

I apologize about all the extra space - can't figure out how to get rid of it.

[DiSoRdeR]

I remember you telling me on AIM that you were going to sell your Mag for an Omen. All I can say is... There better be pictures when you get it! :D Hope you enjoy it :headbang:

EDIT: Just realized there are pics in that link :tard:

[LaW]

tyrion... how does this settle anything?

none of what you just posted would make me pick an omen over a mag with ult... sorry just would not happen.

[Smoke]

I've shot an Omen before (up at my local field/store, wasn't mine), and all I can say is......I probably won't be shooting one ever again.

[mfalcone15]

yea, hopefully u're new marker suits u well..... as long as you like how it shoots, then thats all that matters.... i used to shoot an Armotech Wg-65, which is nothing more than a STBB, but i liked it for the time i used it, as a matter of fact, i loved it. I have since converted to a mag, and i am loving it now too... what ever floats your boat!

[SpecialBlend2786]

I shot an Omen with the pdp chip thingy a few months ago.....the thing was fast :wow:

I personally love Omens, i think they are a great value for the money. The only thing that irked me was the chrono/recock tuning. I guess i'm jsut impacient :)

Have fun with your Omen dude! :shooting:

[Z-man]

9-16... ehh... I got 16 myself before I resorted to rapid-fire. Not that I think you are going to change your stance on the matter but it's always nice to beable to produce a video not a chart.

Z-man's Old Video Of Him Twitching out 16Bps on His (ex) RT Pro (http://homepage.mac.com/zvetter/.Movies/top-rof-rt.mov)

The other thing that it important to do when trying to make a point is not to say things like this:


Don't get sucked into the blind 'mag cult on AO. Anything that's not a mag is automatically deemed "a downgrade." Omens are easy to tech, easily maintained, and the customer service is THE BEST ON THE MARKET. Better than AGD. They don't charge - it's a lifetime warranty with free repairs. Just realize that these are the same people who deemed trading a mech mag for a Matrix a "downgrade." Blind loyalty can't compete with true logic, but these people certainly try. That's why I don't post here much anymore - too culty.

Not only does it bring questions up like "Why are you here in the midst of this wretched cult?" (etc.) but it's also just as ignorant as bashing a marker you have never shot.

Not only does AO NOT bash every marker that's not a Mag but I see more often that people come to AO because it's not like that, BECAUSE you can get a far less biased opinion.

Such talk (above)only brings the PBN to AO and we have enough of that at PBN.

[xXHavokXx]

We've sold alot of omens from our store and have only seen 2 back out of 11....not too shabby. Fast little buggers.

[Carbon]

Don't get sucked into the blind 'mag cult on AO. Anything that's not a mag is automatically deemed "a downgrade."

Dammit we're losing cult members! Quick! someone sacrifce another baby!

[Dirty Dakota]

Does that form of blindness cause my license to be revoked?

Speaking of rabbit holes, did you here the one about the blind guy that walked into the bar with an Omen?

I apologize I had to......sacrifice me.....be aware though, I am not a baby, I just whine a lot.

[lopxtc]

Not many left ... the classic-mag is gone, e-mag is gone, the x-mag is gone ... running out of things to sacrifice :)

Aaron


Dammit we're losing cult members! Quick! someone sacrifce another baby!

[tyrion2323]

My comments were aimed simply towards those who blindly issued the knee-jerk reaction of "downgrade!" and "it'll be back on PBN in 3 days." Sure, 'mags are nice markers, but they're not flawless, nor are they the "best" out there anymore. My chart was simply to show that for less money you can get a faster marker with a comprehensive warranty plan. This can proven simply by looking at the rates that other markers are selling compared to the automag. Very few people outside of AO are going to drop 5 bills on a mechanical marker with a partial warranty.

And as for why I'm in the middle of this "wretched AO Cult," which I never called it, I browse every now and again and rarely post any more. This is because AO is becoming as ridiculous as PBN. Nobody can speak against the majority anymore. Luckily, I've been wise enough to be able to form my opinions instead of just following the band-wagon. No matter whose band-wagon it is.

To respond to Z-Man. I've been on these forums for a long time. I am extremely confident with my assessment of AO and some of its sub-cults. If you want to debate that with me, you're going to have to do quite a bit to prove to me that AO's reputation outside of it's own web boundaries as a "Cult" has no basis. Have a good time.

[BD_Paintball]

i agree with tyrion2323 for the most part. there are poeple here that will always say that mags are better then imp, cockers, and in this case a omen. i know 1st hand that my all uped mag which had x-valve, warp, i-frame ect is not better then my imp with vision. the vision system is much better then the lvl 10 and you dont have to tune it. if you are going to play in tournaments you will not be able to get reactive trigger or you will be pulled. my brothers imp with EQ board and i-frame outshoots a kids x-mag at out local field, and are way faster then our old mags. maby its just that that kid has a slow trigger finger but i doubt it. the omen is better then the mec mag and SOME ppl still dont see the light. my friend had an omen when i had my mag and his omen would outshoot my mag most the time and he had no problems at all with the feeding.

[rkjunior303]

I'm going to chime in here.

now I own both a Micro-E and a Omen with a PDP chip. I love shooting both of them. They are both faster than I can ever shoot. Reliability, I've put over 20 cases through my Omen and I haven't had any problems with it. Aside from taking -2- minutes at the chrono to set my recock/chrono speed I am done. Alot of the misconceptions with the Omen is due to that setup. Alot of people wish to have a 'out of the box' marker they can air up and rail on ... The omen isn't that. The reg needs to be broken in or you will get lots of breaks.. You have to set the recock, and I do admit with the PDP chip its a little touchier to set. If you don't do that, the gun won't recock reliably or it will break balls due to too high of a recock. As for service, both AGD and PMI are both top notch. Everything I have ever needed from PMI, I have gotten -- free of charge. Why would you call a fast shooting, reliable, GOOD LOOKING marker a downgrade. If you take the service/quality as a wash and just look at sheer performance.

We all know, whatever gun you feel comfortable playing with -- that's the best gun. FOR YOU. I am happy with both my Omen and my mag.

And just for the record, at the last AONE day this past weekend. I shot my Omen more than my Micro-E. I got more than a few looks of "darn thats fast" and "what is THAT?"

[GT]

This is because AO is becoming as ridiculous as PBN. Nobody can speak against the majority anymore. Luckily, I've been wise enough to be able to form my opinions instead of just following the band-wagon. No matter whose band-wagon it is.



Tell me what is the AO bandwagon/platform? What is the majority?

[Z-man]

Edited: Not needed as part of this discussion.

[teufelhunden]

I think Z-Man does.

Anyway, teuf has to say that while many people here feel that 'Mags are chief in their market segment [which they tend to be], most people recognize the shortfalls of the 'Mag, namely a) mech and 2) efficiency. 1 is being worked on, 2 you really can't do much about. As for the Omen, yes, I have shot a nicely set up one, and no, I was not impressed. However much it is [350-4, no?] is better spent on a pneumatic marker, not sear tripped with a feeding trick.

[tyrion2323]

Whatever guys. The Omen is a great marker, but if you all want to bash on it, that's your deal.

Just remember how you feel when people call mags "blenders."

[Z-man]

Edited: Not part of the discussion.

[Teamslayer76]

Holy downgrade batman!

If it were me the whole thinking process would be reversed BUT... to each their own


:rofl: :shooting: PMI :cheers: AGD :headbang:

[Z-man]

Edited: I actually liked that post. Thought it had sme good points.

[tyrion2323]

Zack, since you're going to continue to tote your mocking tone then I'm not going to even try to have any discussion. I'll delete my posts and just forget about this stupid thread. My original post was in defense of the Omen, which I still claim is a great marker.

In regards to my indictment of the AO Cult, I also stand by it. Again, I've spent a lot of time on these boards and watched many people get berated for owning cockers, matrixes and other. Not only that, but AOers seem to have a fierce hatred for the Omen, though most who claim to dislike it have only tried it once at most. If that's not BLIND, then I'm unsure of what you believe to be an "informed decision." Remember, every marker can have a bad day. I've owned three mags, all of which have given me many problems... So when people say that "Omens chop like crazy" and the like, it's really like equating Mags to "Blenders," which we all know is a myth.

I would, in your place, reconsider some of your statements about both the Omen and myself. Equating me to a PBNer is not only low, but it's an empty statement. Many PBNers are good guys. In fact, some AOers here are Mods over there. Unless you're willing to brand every PBNer as the same, it'd be wise of you to not make general statements like that. Never have I called anything "gay," nor called anyone a "***got," though I have seen many an AOer do so.

So, with that, I rescind all prior flames.

Good night.

[Carbon]

In regards to my indictment of the AO Cult, I also stand by it. Again, I've spent a lot of time on these boards and watched many people get berated for owning cockers, matrixes and other. Not only that, but AOers seem to have a fierce hatred for the Omen, though most who claim to dislike it have only tried it once at most. If that's not BLIND, then I'm unsure of what you believe to be an "informed decision." Remember, every marker can have a bad day. I've owned three mags, all of which have given me many problems... So when people say that "Omens chop like crazy" and the like, it's really like equating Mags to "Blenders," which we all know is a myth. although this might be true in regard to AO. I always assumed that the berating is in fun harmless buddy buddy way. Generally the overal tone on AO is that of "go with what you like"

[xXHavokXx]

Funny, I don't own a mag but never felt any discrimination when I talk up angels. I think in every thread I post in I give WDP my love.



Fly or Die ( heh totally just saw that ad.)
Chris.

[Z-man]

Zack, since you're going to continue to tote your mocking tone then I'm not going to even try to have any discussion.
I am sorry to have you leave without fully resolving the issue. As it stands I sort of have the impression that your disenchanted with AO's shortcomings (which it most certainly has) and that you don't think much of my presence here on AO. That is your business and nothing more needs to be said about that.

But, what I don't like is when spurious claims are thrown about like proven facts.

You've seen it, I've seen it. On AO, on PBN, AIR, BE, anywhere. This is why there are generalizations made about each forum BECAUSE there is a general trend that seems to reoccur. AO likes Mags (duh). PBN is known to be where the bulk of the trendy, easily dazzled children of the paintball world go to tell everyone how great their <insert what you want> is. Of course not everyone is like that.

There was a great thread on the Matrix section that I am kicking myself for not saving where some guy had taken the time to test out every bolt kit and configuration for a Tirx and had a nice listing of the shots per tank parts used, everything. Pure gold! So does that mean that the generalization is all wrong? No I don't think so.

It just means that there are people productively contributing to the forum for the benefit of others. Bravo! I wont go there very often but they are helping raise the bar. If I go there I will contribute to the forum and not start posting about how awful the ignorant children of PBN all are because.... what does it do? Just like you are not going to pull a 180 on this discussion, neither will the people who make that generalization of PBN a reality.

You feel that the "Pro AGD products" aura is so pervasive here on AO that any other marker is immediately going to be bashed and railed on because its not a AGD marker. I disagree. I believe it happens and with a little searching could pull up some results. But I also believe that I can pull up far more examples that offer constructive suggestions.

Take this thread,

I would, in your place, reconsider some of your statements about both the Omen and myself.
I know nothing about this "Omen" and have (until now not even discussed it.

Never have I called anything "gay," nor called anyone a "***got," though I have seen many an AOer do so.
Why are we going here? I haven't confronted you on anything but your comments toward AO and myself.


So, with that, I rescind all prior flames.
Thank you. I would like to think that much of what you said was not meant and simply said on the spur of the moment. I would rather have a friend (or at least ambiguous) here than an enemy.

Any further comments on my part (if you would like to discuss this further) will be confined to PM's as I can see that this thread has been hijacked.

[Carbon]

So yeah, good luck with your omen kid!

[tyrion2323]

What I said about the "Gay" comments is my experience with PBN. A lot of times if people present a unique idea, or perhaps a silly question, they are branded as gay. Just check the Dynasty boards for further proof.

That's what I was getting at there.

[misenhei]

Everyone preaching to the effect of "if it feels good, do it," i salute you. Along those same lines, you can't come into this house and say something else is better and not expect resistance. We're all shoot mags because that's what feels right. In the arena of personal preference, you can't call supporting your decisions blind faith.

I personally LOVE Evil's products, so you can imagine how excited I was when the Omen came out. The first release, even after all the delays, were terrible. Of the 8 I have personal experience with, all had to be sent back to the manufactuer. Every single one. I hear all the problems have been fixed with the new run, but that first impression has already been made.

On the affordability end there are a lot of electros with the same speed, considerably lower reciprocating weight, and no moment arm created by the offset feed.

[White_Noise]

Sure, 'mags are nice markers, but they're not flawless, nor are they the "best" out there anymore. My chart was simply to show that for less money you can get a faster marker with a comprehensive warranty plan. This can proven simply by looking at the rates that other markers are selling compared to the automag.



1. Is a comprehensie warranty needed? Companys that make cheap products need to have warranties so that they can convince people to buy their product. all a warranty does is make you feel good inside about making your purchase. In all my 4 years of using mags, only one time have i absolutely needed to have an AGD tech work on one of my markers. Mags are quite possibly the simplest marker on the market, and requires very little maintainance to keep them working.

2. Flaws? i can tell you one thing, the automag has very few, if any flaws compared to other markers. mags have a nearly perfect mechanical anti chop system that performs better than many electronic anti chopping devices.

3. Is faster rates of fire all that important? in all seriousness i have seen many mech mags reach ROF's of around 14-16 without bounce, some even without the ULT. The 2-4 bps difference which occurs between these markers and electros is insignificant given that the person using the slower marker has skill and does not only know how to dump paint.


to summarize....we need to stop all this talk about rof, and get back to skills. if youve got skills, then it doesnt matter what kind of marker the other team has, or how fast theyre shooting, because thats all they have. ive seen guys with mech mags take out entire teams of guys with timmys and shockers, etc. etc.

Paintball isnt about how much money you have to spend on buying a super fast electro marker and dumping endless amounts of paint. Its about having skills and adapting those skills in order to achieve victory, regardless of equipment.


--Mike



*rant*

-edit- by the way, good luck with your omen, i hope that it suits you well for your style of play, and that you enjoy it as long as you have it.

[BD_Paintball]

WRONG companies who have warrantees are good companies who back there product and make sure that you get replacement parts if something does ever break. AKA as a warranty, so they have crap products? and the part about it doesen't matter how much you shoot is wrong too. my fried just went the Avalanche clinic here in chicago and they worked on shooting off the break and shooting tons of paint. then one kid asked why we dont practice snap shooting and things like that and all the avalanche players said that its not part of the game anymore. the more you shoot the better you will do. you can see this the most in lower divisions like rookie b/c the kids dont want to pop out of there bunker if you are shooting tons of paint at them. the lvl 10 in my experence was not that good. you had to tune it and if it was not perfect and you are shooting brittle tourny paint it will chop it. eyes dont have to worry about something hitting the ball and thn bounce back. and like i said befor if your gun is reactive at all you will be pulled by a ref, why take the risk?




1. Is a comprehensie warranty needed? Companys that make cheap products need to have warranties so that they can convince people to buy their product. all a warranty does is make you feel good inside about making your purchase. In all my 4 years of using mags, only one time have i absolutely needed to have an AGD tech work on one of my markers. Mags are quite possibly the simplest marker on the market, and requires very little maintainance to keep them working.

2. Flaws? i can tell you one thing, the automag has very few, if any flaws compared to other markers. mags have a nearly perfect mechanical anti chop system that performs better than many electronic anti chopping devices.

3. Is faster rates of fire all that important? in all seriousness i have seen many mech mags reach ROF's of around 14-16 without bounce, some even without the ULT. The 2-4 bps difference which occurs between these markers and electros is insignificant given that the person using the slower marker has skill and does not only know how to dump paint.


to summarize....we need to stop all this talk about rof, and get back to skills. if youve got skills, then it doesnt matter what kind of marker the other team has, or how fast theyre shooting, because thats all they have. ive seen guys with mech mags take out entire teams of guys with timmys and shockers, etc. etc.

Paintball isnt about how much money you have to spend on buying a super fast electro marker and dumping endless amounts of paint. Its about having skills and adapting those skills in order to achieve victory, regardless of equipment.


--Mike



*rant*

-edit- by the way, good luck with your omen, i hope that it suits you well for your style of play, and that you enjoy it as long as you have it.

[LaW]

my fried just went the Avalanche clinic here in chicago and they worked on shooting off the break and shooting tons of paint. then one kid asked why we dont practice snap shooting and things like that and all the avalanche players said that its not part of the game anymore. the more you shoot the better you will do. you can see this the most in lower divisions like rookie b/c the kids dont want to pop out of there bunker if you are shooting tons of paint at them.


And this is exactly the WRONG direction this sport is heading. We are in an age where pure ROF can make up for lack of overall skill. Of course this is not always the case but come on... Thanks for pointing that out because some people seem to not think that ROF is all tournament paintball is really about anymore. :)

[xXHavokXx]

Again, I'm going to have to disagree. Paintball isn't going to a lack of skill just replaced with ROF , it is evolving with the new availible technology. In the begining you couldn't mow out 17 bps so people learned to snap shoot and make quick accurate shots. Now you see kids running through streams of paintballs, shooting quick accurate bursts while having their bunker getting blasted by the back men, watch front players do some crazy ninja manuver through a gap in someones ropes in paint and still make their bunker. The main place where ROF is most effective is off the break, after that you're seeing a combination of the old ways and adaptations to new technology.

Every week at the fields I see old school players trying to use old school tactics on younger players and yeah sometimes they work and sometimes they dont. Old guys with pumps, cockers and mags talking about how their 200 dollar setup just beat a 2000 dollar set up abd bragging then saying its the player not the gun. They why compare set up cost? Half the time they do whip up on people, half the time they don't. Our team captain has been playing for a long time, he still uses his first electro 98 LED and said he had been playing for a long time before that was even a thought in his mind, if you watch him he still plays the old game but it is very adapted to the new game. He rocks a DM4 and isn't afraid to empty his pack if need be, he'll use ROF to overpower you or 2 shots to pick you off. It is all adaptation.

We recently scrimmaged 7 man, with an older team. We knew we had the advantage off the break but as soon as people hit their primaries we had a struggle coming on. Why? These guys can snap shoot and work together very very well. We have a couple older players so we had some of that as well but some of us aren't as old. As the day went on we started winning more because we didn't play their game, we never got into snap sooting battles with one person. If you engage them in a "duel" your gonna die. So we teamed on them, If my mirror tryed to engage me I dumped him off on the tape guy, and i would take him. We crossed up on people and tried to pinch them out. They were so programmed to try the one on one snap shooting they had done for so long they would get hit by the second or third person we stuck on em.

In conclusion : Evolve or die, shoot a fly.

[tyrion2323]

1. Is a comprehensie warranty needed? Companys that make cheap products need to have warranties so that they can convince people to buy their product. all a warranty does is make you feel good inside about making your purchase. In all my 4 years of using mags, only one time have i absolutely needed to have an AGD tech work on one of my markers. Mags are quite possibly the simplest marker on the market, and requires very little maintainance to keep them working.

2. Flaws? i can tell you one thing, the automag has very few, if any flaws compared to other markers. mags have a nearly perfect mechanical anti chop system that performs better than many electronic anti chopping devices.

3. Is faster rates of fire all that important? in all seriousness i have seen many mech mags reach ROF's of around 14-16 without bounce, some even without the ULT. The 2-4 bps difference which occurs between these markers and electros is insignificant given that the person using the slower marker has skill and does not only know how to dump paint.


to summarize....we need to stop all this talk about rof, and get back to skills. if youve got skills, then it doesnt matter what kind of marker the other team has, or how fast theyre shooting, because thats all they have. ive seen guys with mech mags take out entire teams of guys with timmys and shockers, etc. etc.

Paintball isnt about how much money you have to spend on buying a super fast electro marker and dumping endless amounts of paint. Its about having skills and adapting those skills in order to achieve victory, regardless of equipment.


--Mike



*rant*

-edit- by the way, good luck with your omen, i hope that it suits you well for your style of play, and that you enjoy it as long as you have it.

I understand that you're a bit ferklempt; however, you make some very old assumptions about paintball in your post.

(1) Warranties. Any marker can break. In fact, AGD fans used to list the warranty and customer support of AGD as one of the greatest parts of buying a 'mag. Which one is it? Is a great warranty and good customer service representative of a crappy product? If so, you're making quite a harsh indictment of AGD, AKA and Evil on a very simplistic notion.

Regarding simplicity, the mag is more complicated than quite a few markers out there: Stacked-tube blow-backs, Stacked tube electro-pneumatics and pump markers. AGD markers are, in fact, some of the most finicky markers out there. Is this a bad thing? No - they're made to the highest standards in the marker - but it can be problematic if even a slight problem occurs.

(2) Regarding flaws; yes, the automag does has flaws. I have played with Automags five years and have noticed quite a few. Many of these have been ironed out; however, some still remain. I list the following as flaws per my judgment: (1) low efficiency (2) inability to properly perform under 800psi (3) ease of short-stroking (4) finicky tolerances. Am I saying that the mag is a bad marker? Heck no; however, I am able to recognize that nothing is perfect.

Looking at the anti-chop system, I agree with you that the Level-10 is a wonderful and innovative design; however, however I wouldn't call it better than the CAM feed or ACE systems. Here's my logic:
- The ACE systems are active. They will not allow the marker to fire unless a ball is
completely loaded. While they used to have problems with the electronics, current
circuitry has all but eliminated that problem.
- The CAM feed is possibly the simplest anti-chop feed system on the market. It is very
similar to the ACE systems in that it ensures that a ball is properly and completely
loaded in the chamber before the bolt moves forward. If set up properly, it's
impossible to break a ball in the chamber.
Of course, everything is based on how well tuned the marker is. A crappily tuned marker (no matter the marker) will always seem junky. Just as a poorly tuned L10 will not work, nor will an ACE or CAM system.

(3) Regarding rate-of-fire, I find it very difficult to take your argument seriously. In tournament-style paintball today, rate-of-fire is very important. I have competed in tournaments with a mech mag. I have also competed in tournaments with my Omen and Impulse. I can tell you that from a strategic and performance standpoint the electros will win consistently. This is due to a few things: (1) advantages in posting (2) advantages in snap-shooting (3) ability to suppress (4) ability to eliminate an opponent on the move.

All of these factors are influenced by the rate of fire of your marker. While it's definitely true that the player's skill is extremely important, equipment is also a deciding factor. Yes, there are some anomalies and upsets; however, the majority of games will show that higher rates of fire will aid players. Statistics/Research methodoly proves me right here.

In today's tournament paintball, speed and ability to fire are considered skills. To ignore that fact is to attempt to live in a dream world. Paintball is more than just simply SKILLS or ROF. It's a mixture of everything. Most importantly, it's strategy. Strategy is inextricably linked with communication, planned movement, ability to suppress and ability to work as a team. Since a paintball will not fly the same path twice, ability to provide a quick burst of fire not only allows for suppression but allows you to actually HIT someone.

Now regarding the Omen, I've already made my points. I get terribly offended when people on AO immediately cry disparagements towards other markers (especially Omens!) when most of them are inexperienced with the marker. To call the Omen a chop-machine is the same as calling an automag a blender. Remember that the Omen is only a little over one-year old. The 'mag has had 11 years to evolve.

[LaW]

Again, I'm going to have to disagree. Paintball isn't going to a lack of skill just replaced with ROF , it is evolving with the new availible technology. In the begining you couldn't mow out 17 bps so people learned to snap shoot and make quick accurate shots. Now you see kids running through streams of paintballs, shooting quick accurate bursts while having their bunker getting blasted by the back men, watch front players do some crazy ninja manuver through a gap in someones ropes in paint and still make their bunker. The main place where ROF is most effective is off the break, after that you're seeing a combination of the old ways and adaptations to new technology.

Every week at the fields I see old school players trying to use old school tactics on younger players and yeah sometimes they work and sometimes they dont. Old guys with pumps, cockers and mags talking about how their 200 dollar setup just beat a 2000 dollar set up abd bragging then saying its the player not the gun. They why compare set up cost? Half the time they do whip up on people, half the time they don't. Our team captain has been playing for a long time, he still uses his first electro 98 LED and said he had been playing for a long time before that was even a thought in his mind, if you watch him he still plays the old game but it is very adapted to the new game. He rocks a DM4 and isn't afraid to empty his pack if need be, he'll use ROF to overpower you or 2 shots to pick you off. It is all adaptation.

We recently scrimmaged 7 man, with an older team. We knew we had the advantage off the break but as soon as people hit their primaries we had a struggle coming on. Why? These guys can snap shoot and work together very very well. We have a couple older players so we had some of that as well but some of us aren't as old. As the day went on we started winning more because we didn't play their game, we never got into snap sooting battles with one person. If you engage them in a "duel" your gonna die. So we teamed on them, If my mirror tryed to engage me I dumped him off on the tape guy, and i would take him. We crossed up on people and tried to pinch them out. They were so programmed to try the one on one snap shooting they had done for so long they would get hit by the second or third person we stuck on em.

In conclusion : Evolve or die, shoot a fly.

I'm going to say you have your vision I have mine... we can argue it till our heads fall off. The way I see it is that some of the skill that has always been so useful is gone and the thing is its easier to learn how to shoot ropes of paint than it is to learn how to make every single shot count... The team with the most money, the most paint to throw, usually has the best advantage. It should be the player that makes the player but these days sometimes the marker helps make the player and that just shouldnt be.

The main concern I have is this change from fun to win at all costs mentality that many players nowadays have! This is why paintball has been moving in the wrong direction... one reason at least. It will be some time before we see this sport on tv in a decent format, the way it is right now will not appeal to the non-ballers. Maybe the whole idea of unlimited rof, fullauto being allowed etc are just ways to make this sport "extreme" when it really is not that extreme. They have to ignore some saftey so there can be some kind of "danger" factor so people can be like, "wow paintball is the best extreme sport, you can get so hurt!"

Its just hard to argue with people that cant look at different perspectives. Its like arguing with a bunch of kids from pbnation. Do I accept the current trends? Yes. Do I have to like them because its the way it is right now? Absolutely not. Has my game evolved to include some of these current trends? of course. Will paintball continue to be growing as fast as it has been? In my opinion, our big Boom is over.