The Shocker, rebound, and the field

[Lohman446]

LOL... its been a long time since I have seen experienced players where I play care abotu what marker is in your hands, but after I cleared the useability of rebound settings for play people did take notice.

One experienced player, walking down on my team made the comment to me. "We've won already, you have mentally intimidated them" And we won... careful instructions were given me that game to pound on the bunker of there best front player, and he flat out told me he could not move all game.

After that I never got to play with the gun again for most of the day, it was passed around like a cheap :) . A lot of people played with it, A LOT of people dry fired it. After 8K to 10K shots you have to lube it to keep away drop off, I had to do so halfway through the day. It go more looks, handling, than any marker I have ever brought to the field.

The marker was insane.... one finger you could fire off the Halo's paint supply with astounding speed. As a front player I had the firepower when I wanted it, and was able to concentrate on the game - until I got over that firepower and played it actually hurt my game.

Awesome gun, awesome speed, accurate, did not chop, and reasonably efficient. I loved it, I had a lot of fun, and nearly everyone who held it was impressed.

:) and I already know your opinions about it not being legal, FA issues etc. They do exist, they are issues, but it was still fun

[68magOwner]

but after I cleared the useability of rebound settings for play
...how? who let you/why? there insurance cant cover that (im assuming)

[Steelrat]

If everyone else put their gun onto a cheat mode, Im guessing yours wouldn't have been the focus of attention any longer. Bragging about how impressive it was, when it wasnt even you doing the work, doesnt come accross too well.

[Lohman446]

Hehe.. hey, thats how it came out of the box, sue SP??

No doubt... but I didn't see one there - besides, its NXL settings, not cheat mode. Of course.. Im not in the NXL so that argument fades fast?

Seriously - liability, I carry a personal liability policy that covers my actions on the field... likely would be in effect before the fields and could likely settle to cover the field as well off of mine.

[BlackWeenie]

hey guys- BOO HOO. who cares if he used rebound, that doesnt make him a better player. if someone wanted to use cheats at my field, i really wouldnt care. hes just having fun with his new gun. is there something wrong with that? go cry somewhere else, let him have his fun, im sure he isnt going to do that every day :rolleyes:

[Lohman446]

hey guys- BOO HOO. who cares if he used rebound, that doesnt make him a better player. if someone wanted to use cheats at my field, i really wouldnt care. hes just having fun with his new gun. is there something wrong with that? go cry somewhere else, let him have his fun, im sure he isnt going to do that every day :rolleyes:

Thank you

Two things I noticed
A) My game suffered using it, I depended on teh marker to do it all for me, it didn't.
B) I played more with my normal Shocker than this, though I dont think this one missed a game, everyone tried it, played with it, and it was fun to play with. It was a piece of technology that was fun.

[Steelrat]

There is something wrong with a gun having a built-in mode that lets it fire faster than is humanly possible. Hey, I can setup my viking to get 31 bps. Watch me keep all the suckas tucked in their bunkers. Wheee. The interesting question is, if you setup that shocker so it actually shoots one ball for each pull, is it still going to be the fantastic crowd-attracting gun it was when used with rebound?

EDIT: I can see it being interesting to try, but that first post almost made it seemed like you were bragging about it.

[Lohman446]

There is something wrong with a gun having a built-in mode that lets it fire faster than is humanly possible. Hey, I can setup my viking to get 31 bps. Watch me keep all the suckas tucked in their bunkers. Wheee. The interesting question is, if you setup that shocker so it actually shoots one ball for each pull, is it still going to be the fantastic crowd-attracting gun it was when used with rebound?

Is any gun - my Phantom was close, not that anyone else used it. My Pump-mag close, my Sydarm close....

People like oddities, new things - the DM4s got a lot of attention, the Shockers when new got a lot of attention. E-blades got a lot of attetnons.

Oh... and my e-mag in hybrid mode got A LOT of attention also. Was it wrong?

[Steelrat]

I never said it was wrong to get attention. I questioned whether anyone would have been drooling over the shocker if it had not had the rebound enabled. If your field allows rebound, they better be ready to accept turbo and autoresponse modes on other guns, like pandora'd vikings. Then watch the paint start flying.

[ghideon]

Cheat mode, by any another name, would sound as foul.

[BlackWeenie]

There is something wrong with a gun having a built-in mode that lets it fire faster than is humanly possible. Hey, I can setup my viking to get 31 bps. Watch me keep all the suckas tucked in their bunkers. Wheee. The interesting question is, if you setup that shocker so it actually shoots one ball for each pull, is it still going to be the fantastic crowd-attracting gun it was when used with rebound?

EDIT: I can see it being interesting to try, but that first post almost made it seemed like you were bragging about it.

id play someone who has a bouncing vike at 31 bps.. it doesnt matter how much paint is in the air, that doesnt make you better. and besides youve gotta reload after 3.5 seconds at that speed (you use a q loader right?). a fast gun doesnt make you invincible.

[Evil1]

Lohman, I understand where your coming from. It is fun to shoot an amazingly fast illegal gun. I do not condone them being used in tournaments and stuff, but they are fun. It is way fun to shoot a gun real fast with little to no effort. I can also agree with what you said about it hurting your game. With an illegal gun like that, you tend to do stupid things like hang out of the side of a bunker for too long or something else to the effect of relying on the gun.

[Steelrat]

id play someone who has a bouncing vike at 31 bps.. it doesnt matter how much paint is in the air, that doesnt make you better. and besides youve gotta reload after 3.5 seconds at that speed (you use a q loader right?). a fast gun doesnt make you invincible.


If the amount of paint in the air doesnt matter, why do the tournaments either restrict maximum ROF or have explicit rules regarding only shooting once per pull?

[Deathshadow9k]

this whole argument is escalating a bit, we all know that this whole rebound thing is gonna get x'd soon just like ramping and bounce, so let him have his fun with his crazy toy that makes him into a paintball speed demon for shooting, he'll get shot, give him time

[punkncat]

Even more shame on SP for helping make cheating acceptable.

Shame on you by supporting this in buying their product.

A fellow at the field using the new Nerve has how earned the nickname "cheater cheater".

Our field had started a new rule. Anyone using a marker with bounce , ramping , whatever is limited to the HOPPER ONLY of paint in open play. Totally disallowed for any tournies. Try getting the best out of your Anderson board on 200 rounds......

[MindJob]

...but a lot of people wish that the E/X-mags had this "'feature". I know a few guys who passed up on E-mags in favor of markers that had this bounce/turbo/cheater thingy or whatever the heck you call it.

First rule of marketing : give 'em what they want (even if it makes no sense)

[Lohman446]

[QUOTE=punkncat]

Shame on you by supporting this in buying their product.
QUOTE]

Back to the, if you have to agree with everything a PB company does your not going to play argument I have nothing against the following companies, but look at the argument. But when you guys are perfect, or know all of the information behind a companies decision.... welll I just think criticizing SP is getting old.

Fine - shame one people for supporting Dye - a) there C4 gear seems designed around bounce. B) The DM4 was made to accept aftermarket chips readily, for what reason - I'm sure theres others

Shame on people for supporting PMI - they knowingly produced a marker in clear violation of numerous court accepted patents (The PIMP). Even if SP did not hold that patent WDP did, the courts found they both do. I'm sure there are others

Shame on AGD - they produces a gun that out of the box is not tournament legal. They used an unapproved alternate air source.

Shame on WGP - tehy tried to enforce trade dress that they should have nothing to do with. And they sold out to K2

Shame on Tippman - I mean RT on a tippman is way too fast.

Shame on Kingman, they porfit off they use of non-American labor and workes with a lower standard of living.

Shame on AKA - the whole low pressure and closed bolt accuracy myth was exploited extremely well.

Shame one Bob Long and the easily modified Intimidators.

Any other company we want to look at to see all the things they have done in the past?

[paullus99]

I was at my first (and only) tournament this weekend - just a small event at a local field. They had an electro & mechanical division (3-man), so we decided to hop in & see what we could do.

We had a great time & took second in the mechanical (an A-5, 98, & my mag rounding out the markers). Lots of younger kids & we were the only team to beat the first placers (a group of electro guys who decided to throw in on the mechanical side).

Now, the reason behind this post - on the electro side, there was a team (wearing grey Empire Jerseys) shooting what I assumed were Shockers (electro gun ID is not my strongpoint). Tourney rules stated one-pull, one shoot (no bounce, even on the mechanical side). They were warned once (because it was obvious they were all bouncing in their first game), then in the second to last game, they did it again & somebody got hurt.

One of the guys on the other team was behind the dorrito, got hit a few times from the front, was pulled by the ref (great reffing btw, didn't take crap from anyone & really did their jobs well), then one of the other guys comes around his bunker & put another 15 - 25 additional shots into the guy, and since his back was turned, 4 or 5 of them went up underneath his mask right into his ear. He suffered at least temporary hearing loss (for as long as I was there). This was from about 5 - 10 feet away.

Now, not being used to the typical tourney (and not ever wanting to get used to it - its just not for me) I was shocked by the blatant disregard of the rules. It was a bad ending to an otherwise enjoyable day.

[GT]

Fine - shame one people for supporting Dye - a) there C4 gear seems designed around bounce. B) The DM4 was made to accept aftermarket chips readily, for what reason - I'm sure theres others

Shame on people for supporting PMI - they knowingly produced a marker in clear violation of numerous court accepted patents (The PIMP). Even if SP did not hold that patent WDP did, the courts found they both do. I'm sure there are others

Shame on AGD - they produces a gun that out of the box is not tournament legal. They used an unapproved alternate air source.

Shame on WGP - tehy tried to enforce trade dress that they should have nothing to do with. And they sold out to K2

Shame on Tippman - I mean RT on a tippman is way too fast.

Shame on Kingman, they porfit off they use of non-American labor and workes with a lower standard of living.

Shame on AKA - the whole low pressure and closed bolt accuracy myth was exploited extremely well.

Shame one Bob Long and the easily modified Intimidators.

Any other company we want to look at to see all the things they have done in the past?

ok...
I am willing to bet the number of people hurt by the new versions of boards are going to far exceed the sillness of your shame list.


They were warned once (because it was obvious they were all bouncing in their first game), then in the second to last game, they did it again & somebody got hurt.


All it takes today is a credit card and a phone call to defeat a large gap in player skill by upgrading thier equipments performance..

[Lohman446]

I was at my first (and only) tournament this weekend - just a small event at a local field. They had an electro & mechanical division (3-man), so we decided to hop in & see what we could do.

We had a great time & took second in the mechanical (an A-5, 98, & my mag rounding out the markers). Lots of younger kids & we were the only team to beat the first placers (a group of electro guys who decided to throw in on the mechanical side).

Now, the reason behind this post - on the electro side, there was a team (wearing grey Empire Jerseys) shooting what I assumed were Shockers (electro gun ID is not my strongpoint). Tourney rules stated one-pull, one shoot (no bounce, even on the mechanical side). They were warned once (because it was obvious they were all bouncing in their first game), then in the second to last game, they did it again & somebody got hurt.

One of the guys on the other team was behind the dorrito, got hit a few times from the front, was pulled by the ref (great reffing btw, didn't take crap from anyone & really did their jobs well), then one of the other guys comes around his bunker & put another 15 - 25 additional shots into the guy, and since his back was turned, 4 or 5 of them went up underneath his mask right into his ear. He suffered at least temporary hearing loss (for as long as I was there). This was from about 5 - 10 feet away.

Now, not being used to the typical tourney (and not ever wanting to get used to it - its just not for me) I was shocked by the blatant disregard of the rules. It was a bad ending to an otherwise enjoyable day.

A regretable situation - my first point of this and likely agreed with by everyone here.

However, is this the new Nerve style boards fault. Likely not... its a player behind it. What I found with it playing is I was off the trigger faster because I was paying less attention to the trigger and more to the game around me. As such, although the string was in the air it was not continued after the first hit. The field I play at has a strong rule regarding more than four breaks on someone from less than 20 feet away (when your all the way across field sometimes strings do happen). Its a 2 or 3 for 1 penalty.

I would argue that the Nerve style board is ideal - when I bunker someone I pull the trigger three times - not enough to "excite the board". Further, unlike some bouncey guns I have seen as soon as I quit pulling the trigger the paint stops. No shot buffering (my e-mag had shot buffering) to fire those pulls after I quit pulling the trigger.

It is illegal in most places... but it is not this great evil everyone makes it to be. I would argue that shot buffering is much more dangerous than whatever is happening with the Nerve board. I could argue that a 20 foot per second rise in chrono speed from single fired shots to rapid fire shots is dangerous. Theres a lot of arguments out there. Do I think this might be dangerous - sure it might be. But shooting any projectile at anyone carries an inherent degree of risk.

[Beemer]

Seriously - liability, I carry a personal liability policy that covers my actions on the field... likely would be in effect before the fields and could likely settle to cover the field as well off of mine.

And why do you feel this is needed?? Sounds like you know what your policy covers.[likely would be..........likely settle to cover] It does or doesnt...... Will or will not is more like it.
Maybe you should know for sure since you think you need it in the first place.


No shot buffering (my e-mag had shot buffering) to fire those pulls after I quit pulling the trigger.
This is not true.


One of the guys on the other team was behind the dorrito, got hit a few times from the front, was pulled by the ref (great reffing btw, didn't take crap from anyone & really did their jobs well), then one of the other guys comes around his bunker & put another 15 - 25 additional shots into the guy, and since his back was turned, 4 or 5 of them went up underneath his mask right into his ear. He suffered at least temporary hearing loss (for as long as I was there). This was from about 5 - 10 feet away.

Now, not being used to the typical tourney (and not ever wanting to get used to it - its just not for me) I was shocked by the blatant disregard of the rules. It was a bad ending to an otherwise enjoyable day.

Hope he is ok.. Did he take any to the neck area? Did he go to a Doc. A hemorrage can have an effect days after it happens.


Theres a lot of arguments out there. Do I think this might be dangerous - sure it might be. But shooting any projectile at anyone carries an inherent degree of risk.

There is no might be only IS.

I think you are less informed then I thought you were.


Add................Its like the exploading Pinto in AGDs post.

[Creative Mayhem]

The marker was insane.... one finger you could fire off the Halo's paint supply with astounding speed.

Hmm makes you wonder....


Cheat mode, by any another name, would sound as foul.

Good call...

SP + Rebound = Legal

AGD + Reactive Trigger = Illegal?

Does anyone else see a problem? IT sounds like the same priciple, one mech in nature, the other programmed, how is one legal and the other not?

I only have one thing to say... What a CROCK OF @#$! :cuss:

[Lohman446]

Shot buffering does not "store" trigger pulls? I never was fast enough to get any stored on the e-mag, but I have seen guns that do this and will continue to fire after you let off the trigger.

As for my liability policy - as long as it is not in my area of expertise negligence is unlikely to be found. The key is intent to the policy. As long as I did not intend to harm the person I am shooting at and resonable safeguards (masks) are in place, I am covered.

As for it being dangerous - anything is to a degree. I said firing any projectile at a person was dangerous, granted firing 20 would be twice as dangerous as firing 10, sure I'll give that. But the risk is so small as to be tolerable. If paintball represented an immediate threat to the long term physical well being of its participants I might not be playing.

[Beemer]

Hmm makes you wonder...

I only have one thing to say... What a CROCK OF @#$! :cuss:



Yup just like when the warp came out.. Can you say Chinese DownHill[what rules]

[Lohman446]

I would like to point out also, seems how I get to defend my actions...

I referred to this many times as cheat mode at the field. I think the exact line was "I can't pull the trigger fast so I found a gun to cheat for me."

I made no attempt to hide it from anyone on the field, to hide what I was doing. Everyone there knew it, I wasn't trying to sneak it by anyone. Was I trying to gain an unfair advantage, maybe. Then again, I had this marker against me as much as with me as it was passed around during the day.

Now a lot of you have brought up valid issues, and would regardless - but how many of you would be saying "way to show those electros who rules" if I had stated I had done the same thing with a mag and 1100 PSI of input pressure. This is not to apply to everyone, some of the points brought up are well thought out, and to some degree valid, however some of the flak Im taking is because I did it with an SP product.

I like the conversation... but my argument is normally that the most dangerous part of paintball has nothing to do with the paint in the air, it has to do with the 4500PSI tanks six inches from our heads.

[1stdeadeye]

How do you adjust rebound in a Shocker? It only has one button. :confused:

[Beemer]

As long as I did not intend to harm the person I am shooting at and resonable safeguards (masks) are in place, I am covered.


Its a whole lot more then just masks. Forget about the ASTM standards that were supposed to be reasonable safe guards.

[Lohman446]

How do you adjust rebound in a Shocker? It only has one button. :confused:

One the inside of the grip, where you adjust dwell and debounce (or whatever you want to call it, you can only go down to 30 miliseconds) you can now adjust rebound settings from one to five on the newest boards. Most Shockers do not have this yet, but the newest ones do, the Nerve board in essence in a Shocker. Theres only one accessible button on the outside, you can't adjust things from it (at least stock Im sure some programming experts have toyed with other things but those are illegal and trying to hide it). If you an adjust things like shots per second without tools it is in a gray area by PSP rules - though I will point out this was nto an issue when playing with my e-mag anywhere.

[teufelhunden]

...but a lot of people wish that the E/X-mags had this "'feature". I know a few guys who passed up on E-mags in favor of markers that had this bounce/turbo/cheater thingy or whatever the heck you call it.


It does... it's called Hybrid mode.

[1stdeadeye]

One the inside of the grip, where you adjust dwell and debounce (or whatever you want to call it, you can only go down to 30 miliseconds) you can now adjust rebound settings from one to five on the newest boards. Most Shockers do not have this yet, but the newest ones do, the Nerve board in essence in a Shocker. Theres only one accessible button on the outside, you can't adjust things from it (at least stock Im sure some programming experts have toyed with other things but those are illegal and trying to hide it). If you an adjust things like shots per second without tools it is in a gray area by PSP rules - though I will point out this was nto an issue when playing with my e-mag anywhere.

I'll have to open mine up and play with it! :clap:

[Lohman446]

Its a whole lot more then just masks. Forget about the ASTM standards that were supposed to be reasonable safe guards.

Can I be legally expected to follow the standards that even the industry itself does not? I have an expectation that anything I am buying unaltered from the factory, falls within accepted standards of safety.

[Beemer]

Can I be legally expected to follow the standards that even the industry itself does not? I have an expectation that anything I am buying unaltered from the factory, falls within accepted standards of safety.


GOOD question

Guess where this disclaimer is posted


Players are responsible for ensuring their paintball gear meets all ASTM and insurance standards and are within the set range of posted chronographed feet-per-second prior to entering the field

[Lohman446]

Good question can I ask where?

I should be more concerned though about the thing printed on the side of the solenoid pack (I assume thats what it was) on the Shocker "Max pressure 100PSI" or something similar, the idea is that. I could swear the gun ran at 170PSI.

[Beemer]

2/3rds down the page

http://www.celebritypaintball.com/eventinfo.html

[Lohman446]

I suppose you know them enough to point out that anything but one shot one pull is against them?

Frankly can I be expected to have the equipment, and the knowledge to test to ATSM standards. Is it not reasonable of me to assume that equipment unalterered out of the box, meets all accepted standards? Thats a rhetorical question - I'm sure you can point out where they don't but please do understand my point.

For those of you thinking Im a jerk for using this, it can be turned off, its not something I would use at any event that it was not expressly allowed at.

[Beemer]

Is it not reasonable of me to assume that equipment unalterered out of the box, meets all accepted standards? Thats a rhetorical question - I'm sure you can point out where they don't but please do understand my point.

It SURE is. But you know what assume does. And thats the big money question. Why dont they. Back to the exploading Pinto and Chinese DownHill.

[Lohman446]

The important question then becomes, should the unthinkable happen and someone is injured because a piece of equipment did not meet ATSM standards, who is a jury going to be at fault.

I only have to pass the reasonable person test, that I had a reasonable expectation of the equipment being safe.

The manufacturer on the other hand.... well there not me. Should push come to shove I expect that the manufacturer and not the individual player would be held accountable. I might be wrong, and thats where liability insurance comes into play

[Beemer]

of questions eh.

Need to talk to a lawyer more.

I can tell you this. The first place the CPSC goes when the crap hits the fan is the ASTM standards even though they are voluntary.

Look what happened to Ford with the Pinto thing.

[Caffiend]

It SURE is. But you know what assume does. And thats the big money question. Why dont they. Back to the exploading Pinto and Chinese DownHill.

Can you explain the Chinese DownHill? Are you talking about the ski/snowboard race down a huge arse mountain? I'm not understanding the connection. I feel like a :tard:

[Beemer]

Can you explain the Chinese DownHill? Are you talking about the ski/snowboard race down a huge arse mountain? I'm not understanding the connection. I feel like a :tard:


Ya HotDog the movie. Chinese DownHill........"WTF is Chinese DownHill" "First the rules, there are no rules.

[Caffiend]

ohhhhhh, ok. thank you.

[punkncat]

[QUOTE=punkncat]

Shame on you by supporting this in buying their product.
QUOTE]

Back to the, if you have to agree with everything a PB company does your not going to play argument I have nothing against the following companies, but look at the argument. But when you guys are perfect, or know all of the information behind a companies decision.... welll I just think criticizing SP is getting old.

Fine - shame one people for supporting Dye - a) there C4 gear seems designed around bounce. B) The DM4 was made to accept aftermarket chips readily, for what reason - I'm sure theres others

Shame on people for supporting PMI - they knowingly produced a marker in clear violation of numerous court accepted patents (The PIMP). Even if SP did not hold that patent WDP did, the courts found they both do. I'm sure there are others

Shame on AGD - they produces a gun that out of the box is not tournament legal. They used an unapproved alternate air source.

Shame on WGP - tehy tried to enforce trade dress that they should have nothing to do with. And they sold out to K2

Shame on Tippman - I mean RT on a tippman is way too fast.

Shame on Kingman, they porfit off they use of non-American labor and workes with a lower standard of living.

Shame on AKA - the whole low pressure and closed bolt accuracy myth was exploited extremely well.

Shame one Bob Long and the easily modified Intimidators.

Any other company we want to look at to see all the things they have done in the past?

If this helps justify to you the use of a marker that cheats for you , then fine. If its ok to you.......

Any manufacturer that produced a marker that wasn't easily upgraded or modified would basically be shutting their own doors. Using aftermarket boards / programming whatever is one thing(not saying its right , but its optional). Grabbing a marker straight out of the box from the manufacturer that cheats is another entirely.

I really cannot see where RT is even comparable to this discussion as RT has an exact effect on the number of shots (1 back 1 forward in response), or just allowing reactivity with its "return". There is a direct mechanical correlation to shots fired to pulls rather than a multiplier ramping up shots from moderate, sustained trigger pulls.

Honestly I think the only people who will benefit from this are paint manufacturers. Streams of ill fired paint cannot make up for nor replace skill. We will see a major rift in the sport caused by those that can afford the toys and those who will be intimidated by it ,possibly not play in the first place, and/or can't afford it. I feel like this trend is going to end up damaging the sport because of it.

Personally I think the BPS cap should be made a standard. One shot , one pull made a standard , and bring skill back to the game rather than a measure of financial resource. I know its utopian , but hey we can all dream.