High-speed Mechanical Triggers vs. Electro.

[PBX Ronin 23]

With the ever incresing rates of fire, first with the electros and now with the pneumatically-assisted mechanical triggers, there's an obvious issue that's not being addressed.

An assisted mech trigger that's capable of firing at an extremely high rate is still lacking the ability to sense the presence of a ball in the breach before it can fire. The Mags can obviously deal well with this issues with a L-10'ed valve, but what about an assisted Cocker Trigger.......and don't tell me use a JAM bolt either!

I recall several years back with Boston paintball coming out with their version of the assisted mech trigger. Saw it shoot once and it was indeed a beast. But due to the lack of high-speed loaders plus the politics of paintball back then, they couldn't capitalize on their product.

Without an eye for the Cocker, any high-speed trigger will, in all likelihood encounter chopping problems. So why bother then? Why not just go electro on a cocker and take advantage of having the ability to have an eye?

What are your thoughts on this?

[Gambit1106]

I agree with you, on this. Without some kind of anti-chop capability it would not be an advisable thing in my mind. The mag has the saving grace of having the level 10 where a cocker has that high chance of chopping.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

We have level 10, we dont need any fancy electronics.

In all seriousness, some people would rather have a halo and no eyes than eyes and a revvi. I'd rather have a pnumeatic anti chop system, than an electronic one. Pnuematics will always work, there isnt much to go wrong. But with electronics, theres software problems, battery issues, connections, fried boards, etc. I have confidence in electronics, but I have more confidence in pnuematics and principles that have been around for years.

[RRfireblade]

MMMM,

What makes you think a mechanical trigger system can't have an eye?

[thecavemankevin]

my thoughts:

cant friggin wait for a pnue-mech mag frame and damn all else! ;)

but as far as the pnue-mech for any other gun sucha as a cocker....well there in lies the problem. If you have a cocker that can shoot so darn fast mechanically but chopping is a constant problem....then it HAS to be fixed mechanically. Afterall, look at the original RT mags....they would easily outshoot their hoppers....thus the legend of the blender mag was born, and we have been strugling to overcome that image ever since.

Perhaps an extremely low pressure system will be required in order to over come this. Or perhaps some sort of bleed off valve similar to that of the LX on a mag might be able to work (but that may infringe on patents).

[Vash-HT]

even with lvl 10 tho, it still skips a shot if it stops on a ball, whereas an eye will fire when the ball is loaded, no skipping shots.

i think some ppl may buy them so they dont have to worry about electronics problems, but with the addition of more pneumatics there's bound ot be more problems.

[thecavemankevin]

MMMM,

What makes you think a mechanical trigger system can't have an eye?

you know, somehow i wondered if you might be working on something like this

[Skywalker]

With the ever incresing rates of fire, first with the electros and now with the pneumatically-assisted mechanical triggers, there's an obvious issue that's not being addressed.

An assisted mech trigger that's capable of firing at an extremely high rate is still lacking the ability to sense the presence of a ball in the breach before it can fire. The Mags can obviously deal well with this issues with a L-10'ed valve, but what about an assisted Cocker Trigger.......and don't tell me use a JAM bolt either!

I recall several years back with Boston paintball coming out with their version of the assisted mech trigger. Saw it shoot once and it was indeed a beast. But due to the lack of high-speed loaders plus the politics of paintball back then, they couldn't capitalize on their product.

Without an eye for the Cocker, any high-speed trigger will, in all likelihood encounter chopping problems. So why bother then? Why not just go electro on a cocker and take advantage of having the ability to have an eye?

What are your thoughts on this?


That's why I'm waiting for Logic to come out with their electro vert frame, so I can have eyes. That way if I wanted to get rid of the LX and save some efficiency I still wouldn't chop a ball.

[punkncat]

Electronic markers most easily address all the issues of chop.

Lvl 10 is already patented. The other "chopless" bolts work marginally at best. Lowered bolt pressures in a mechanical marker make velocity hard to get high enough due to having to recock against a heavy spring. May be some hope of overcoming that with pneumatically controlled mechs.

[PBX Ronin 23]

MMMM,

What makes you think a mechanical trigger system can't have an eye?
If the "eye" you're referring to is either a Beam Break or a Reflective one, then wouldn't you need to have circuity and battery to run it? If that's the case, why not just go to an electro since it would negate the mechanical advantage on not needing batteries?

But then again, you guys at PTP might have something else up your sleeves...hehehe.

New Tech is always cool. If you can get it out there, that's awesome!! :clap:

[steveo356]

welll maybe there could be a mini scale at the bottom f the breach that doesnt let the gun fineuntil its senses x amout of wieght. im not shure how this would work but it would be pick rollling side to side with a non forcefeed loader

[PBX Ronin 23]

Then you'll have small recesses and cavities for paint to pool into. How well will it work then under normal playing conditions.

[DaveSM]

If properly setted, a cocker could pinch ball as a mag do. You just have to reduce your cycling pressure. To do so you need an heavier hammer and a lighter back spring. I have seen mech cocker pinching balls and not even chopping so a pneumatic trigger wouldn't be a problem for them.

[hitech]

Well, since I don't want a cocker, and I do want a 'mag, I don't care about other mech. markers needing some sort of anti-chop system. The 'mag has an execelent one. Now we just need the trigger system. :headbang:

[WenULiVeUdiE]

You could have electro eyes in something like the hAir or the PTP frame. You just need room for the board at such. The solution could be putting it up on the hopper. There is a power source, a board that you can replace or add another board.

Edit- Now how the eyes would stop the marker from firing is beyond me. And eye delay would be tricky as well.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

If properly setted, a cocker could pinch ball as a mag do. You just have to reduce your cycling pressure. To do so you need an heavier hammer and a lighter back spring. I have seen mech cocker pinching balls and not even chopping so a pneumatic trigger wouldn't be a problem for them.

The only problem with setting the lpr low is the ram will not cycle as fast: It will lead to slower speeds, something we dont want.

[Chronobreak]

make a crossbread frame ;) seems a bit neceeasy but i gues u could use one small battery and if it was small simple and cost effective that would be good. also im not too good with echanics but couldnt there be some sort of max rof that could be adj to taht of the hopper?

:hugs lvlX :D

[teufelhunden]

^^Making a crossbread frame elminates the reason to have a pneu-assist trigger, unless there is no viable electronic option.

All this could be avoided if people just bought decent loaders and didn't stick VL Quantums on Impulses and expect no problems.

[PBX Ronin 23]

If properly setted, a cocker could pinch ball as a mag do. You just have to reduce your cycling pressure. To do so you need an heavier hammer and a lighter back spring. I have seen mech cocker pinching balls and not even chopping so a pneumatic trigger wouldn't be a problem for them.Your initial statement is correct as far as reducing your cocking pressure lower. But you've made it oxymoronic by stating the use of a heavier hammer. A heavy hammer actually necesitates the increase of the cocking pressure because the weight of your moving mass has been increased. In a cocker, it's all about spring balancing not the weight of hammer.....my two cents.;)

[PBX Ronin 23]

^^Making a crossbread frame elminates the reason to have a pneu-assist trigger, unless there is no viable electronic option.

All this could be avoided if people just bought decent loaders and didn't stick VL Quantums on Impulses and expect no problems. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Rift]

MMMM,

What makes you think a mechanical trigger system can't have an eye?

im kidna thinkin the same thing could you not simply make a switch that is activated by the touch of a ball thus letting the triger fire, if no souch activation acourse the gun wont fire im sure it woudl be more complcated then i make it sound but to an extent would it not work?

[Chojin Man]

with a good hopper and level 10 you shouldn't need eyes for a mech trigger. 99% of players wouldn't be able to leagaly outshoot a halo w/ vboard.

[Chronobreak]

my comment was geared toward the cocker problem it seems ronin said mags done ahve this porb due to the lvlX so we can have the ALL mech version ;) :D

[68magOwner]

one of the arguments the people who like the fast mech guns is that they are "more reliable" i beg to differ, with the lvl10 and ULT, the mag already became to complicates for some, but now shoving all this extra stuff in the grip frame is going to make it much more complicated than a board in the frame (and dont even get started with how bad efficency will be)

[Chronobreak]

one of the arguments the people who like the fast mech guns is that they are "more reliable" i beg to differ, with the lvl10 and ULT, the mag already became to complicates for some, but now shoving all this extra stuff in the grip frame is going to make it much more complicated than a board in the frame (and dont even get started with how bad efficency will be)

dont quote me but i thoguht efficency was only in the realm of a few shots per 1k psi

[Rift]

yes efficency with the hair was said to be around 3-4 shots less off a 68/4500

[Lurker27]

Electro is better.

[warbeak2099]

I was thinking of a way to ace a mech gun. Here's how my idea would work:

You need a small board (predator or morlock), eyes, and a sear tripper type solenoid (single style I guess). The solenoid goes behind the trigger. The eyes connect to where the micro switch would be on the board and the solenoid would be connected to the usual place. When the eyes sense there is no ball in the breech, they break the circuit causing the solenoid to open and push the trigger forward preventing the shooter from pulling it back. When a ball is in the breech, the solenoid is not activated. Now I don't know how to make the absence of the ball break the circuit and essentially tell the board to "fire", but it's just my idea.

You still get a mech gun but with an electronically controlled ace system. Of course it would cost around $300 but hey it's just an idea. And yes there would be the problm of setting the dwell just right but again, it's just a little thought I had.

Pete

[RTDynaflow]

^^^^
Why would anyone want an electro assisted gun that has a pnuea trigger??? Kind of like sticking a blower on a car to overcome its turbo lag :rolleyes: I mean, besides for the kicks...

I would asume the whole key to keeping the cocker from becoming the new blender, get the operating psi down very very low. Look at that gun by gforce, or something, all mechanical, bolt operates on less then 10psi. No chopping. It was cycled to over 20bps w/ paint.... I *think*

[HateMachine]

when the Hair trigger comes out, any electro trigger will look like work to pull. Ohh yea even precious Angels....

[RTDynaflow]

when the Hair trigger comes out, any electro trigger will look like work to pull. Ohh yea even precious Angels....


Hmm... the hAir is what? 2 onces? Can come down to like 60grams? What is an angel trigger? Vikings have 25g.. I have seen softer micros, but 25 is even pushing it. On the other hand, the hair has a .01" stroke and appears to not bounce at all. Something that is hard to get on electros.

[Enos Shenk]

Well, pneumatic proximity detectors exist, and pneumatic logic circuits exist.

The tricky part is miniaturizing it.

[tyrion2323]

Throw a CAM feed on a cocker, and there ya go. Works perfectly (if you're not too retarded to set it up, that is.)

[warbeak2099]

I didn't say my idea was practical. Just an idea. But Enos has the right idea. If you could miniaturize a pneumatic proximity detector that would work. Hey hush, we don't want someone going and patenting that!

[Lurker27]

I can only think of two reasons.

To say you did it with no battery

Going swimming

Otherwise, WHY?

[PBX Ronin 23]

I didn't say my idea was practical. Just an idea. But Enos has the right idea. If you could miniaturize a pneumatic proximity detector that would work. Hey hush, we don't want someone going and patenting that!
PBX is aware of the concept but it is prohibitive in more ways than one. What several of you have suggested is to actually implement an electronic ball detection mechanism in a mechanical gun which in and of itself defeats the purpose.

The G-Force pneumatic system is definitely intriguing. My only reservation is the size of it and unless there is a creation of a "Mech Only" division in the highest level of paintball competition, mechs will have a more difficult time competing.

More and more I become more appreciative of the LX for what it can accomplish and more and more I'm seeing that the Mag has more strength as a mech than any other mech out there.

[RRfireblade]

The tricky part is miniaturizing it.


In actuallity ,size is really not a major concern.

Just for instance.....

The average person looks at this type of frame and thinks,"yeah,all you have to do is stick a cocker 3way in there and a ram and your done". On the surface,that may seem like a simple solution but that's not going to get you anywhere near the performance you need to get in order to compete with an electronic trigger pull. Most people really have no idea how light and short an electronic trigger pull really is till you try and duplicate it without a micro switch.

In regards to pnuematics as they apply here,the two biggest issues by far is the mear speed and force at which pnuematically driven parts can move and having the ability to control said parts in terms of, and in incriments of, single milliseconds......or less.That added to the fact that paintball markers as a whole have blown wide open, the typical demands and speed requirements of off the shelf components in almost every commercially available part/product catagory. Before recent developments in paintball, asking for a pnuematic soleniod,electronic or otherwise, that can cycle over 30 CPS continously would get you laughed right off the phone. Not to much has changed there yet either.Same thing was true back in the days before HPA. If you wanted an item that can sustain 3000PSI or better, you pretty much had to build it or mod it or......something. We developed a 3/16" coiled remote line here that had a WP of 12000+psi and tested to 20000psi+ and could not get a failure of the line (the fittings were a different story)due to a lack the testing equiptments ability at that time.Even to this day,there are those that refuse to believe those 'wild' and outlandish claims. Those outside 'paintball' still don't. ;)

Anyway....didn't mean to turn this into a 'lesson'. :D

I was just trying to illistrate that there are many concerns beyond what it may seem on the surface. As for the "eye" system, the 'system' doesn't need to be very complicated at all.Speed and reaction time is really the issue when yor talking about cycle times in the 20-30 second range and the ability to have full control over those in the most minute degrees.....without a software revision being the easy fix. :) That's why a stand alone electronic system sounds appealing but all mech would be more fun.

The biggest hurdle,IMO, is building a system that can react at twice the speed of the rest of the system and have full control of that system down to teh most minuite fractions of a second........oh and do it 20-30 times in a second if need be. Sounds easy huh? ;) Well, it can be done...........I'm pretty sure..........kinda :D

Jay.

[GT]

how long have we been talking about the hair trigger? How many people own one let alone have actually shot one?

[wdyer14]

There is a great argument both ways,but as usual there is always a trade off.I own a RT-pro,Angel Speed,and an IR3 among a few others and most of the time I play with my mag out of preferance,unless I'm at a rather important tournament where I just feel I need a higher rate of fire (rare though,I'm usually in front)The speed's new sensi technology is crap,Bob himself quoted to me that WDP had even him fooled and there is no way to garuntee that it won't keep cracking the crystals,my cops 2 is alot more reliable,but even still in the heat of a game you ram a straight shot down it and there goes your precious eye.Granted I've played without the eyes without to much trouble,but thats not the argument.My RT w/level 10 was hard to fine tune,yet I've never again thought about itin over a year.My speed board has been replaced,and I've upgraded my cops,but my level 10 keeps chuggin along-lol.So I feel that electro's are reliable,but nothing beats the rock solid ability of an RT valve that has manged to remain the same,while other company's are having to constantly fix programming issues.After saying all that I'm not dogging electro's just saying there are alot of preferance statements on here of this is better or that is better,it's just all about what you like,,,no right or wrong answers.....P.S. before I get flamed about the sensi statement I know alot of them are ok still,but Bob installs eye's w/ the predator boards for a reason.

[G3PB]

A Normally Closed Pneumatic Proximity Sensor. The ones currently made are a little large but they can be "remote" mounted. If there is a call for a smaller version, someone will make them.....that would solve your mechanical eye problems....

[PBX Ronin 23]

The biggest hurdle,IMO, is building a system that can react at twice the speed of the rest of the system and have full control of that system down to teh most minuite fractions of a second........oh and do it 20-30 times in a second if need be. Sounds easy huh? ;) Well, it can be done...........I'm pretty sure..........kinda :DA lot of it has to do with the type and quality of the e-components being used, the algorithm and the astuteness of the programmer....if you're purely referring to a ball detection system.

But if you're talking about the valve and its cps and controlability, then holy grail has been found....mQ-Valve.

[hitech]

But if you're talking about the valve and its cps and controlability, then holy grail has been found....mQ-Valve.

But can it maintain the velocity to +- 0.5 fps? ;)

[PBX Ronin 23]

But can it maintain the velocity to +- 0.5 fps? ;)Sorry but the best I've achieved is +/1 fps using Diable Inferno....... :rofl:

Being that we failed your standards miserably, we'll strive to do better the next time. ;)

I knew I should have chosen the 'wooden' valve.....

[RRfireblade]

But if you're talking about the........

I'm talking about doing it all mechanically. An electronic system I could build in my sleep. ;) On a few late nights, I think I have. :D