Question on patents..

[Digits]

If I were to make a new marker based on the timmy design, where it was almost the same as a timmy internally, but the body was different would I be infringing on patents?

BTW, I'm in Canada.

[eNder159]

if its the same internals...and a different body..well...you just made the 09238402938409283409283049820394029340928340 timmy out there just with a different body

[Fixion]

If I were to make a new marker based on the timmy design, where it was almost the same as a timmy internally, but the body was different would I be infringing on patents?

BTW, I'm in Canada.

If you were to produce it and sell it, maybe, I don't know of the specific patents on the timmy. If it infringes on the SPECIFIC pattents (and you mass produce it and sell it commercially), then yes, that would be patent infringment. But if you just make one or two for personal use, that probably wouldn't be a problem.

For example. The autococker itself (the mechanical device), isn't pattented, but the name is. So you can go and make as many cockers however you want and sell them, you just can't call it an "autococker".

[Digits]

Alright thanks bro..

And i'll be mass producing them.. Probablly about 1000 for the first run..

I was thinking of stealing the nerve, and shocker from smart parts, getting a 1000 of each made, and selling them at 100-200 less with break beam eyes instead of crappy *** reflective...

I'm in Canada to, so SP shouldn't be able to touch me with their electro patent, and I doubt they paid the big $$'s for a worldwide patent on the nerver or shocker, so we'll see.. lol.

[RRfireblade]

I hope your planning on selling them all in canada then ;)

[Deep Sixx]

You want to borrow from an existing design, add features and sell it for less money? The body will be your own design? Have you looked into CNC machining costs? I'm guessing no, and I think you're in for a nasty surprise.

sixx

[Creative Mayhem]

I'm in Canada to, so SP shouldn't be able to touch me with their electro patent, and I doubt they paid the big $$'s for a worldwide patent on the nerver or shocker, so we'll see.. lol.


Hate to burst a fellow Canuck's bubble, but the patent SP has is a north american patent,(which covers canada) and more than likely a worldwide patent(due to WDP)

So basically, if you were to reproduce the shocker/nerve you would get your gonads nailed to the wall faster than you can sneeze.

[Glickman]

smart parts is based out of canada, i dunno if the own a patent there too

[can'tthink of1]

Well as far as patents go for timmy-like markers... there is the nemisis (spelling?) and the custom body from ummm, Aim I believe. Now if BL or someone had a patent on the timmy these markers wouldn't be seen.

I think as long as SP doesn't make a huff about it you're safe.

[Deep Sixx]

smart parts is based out of canada

No, they're not.

sixx

[G3PB]

IF a marker patent were for the US only.....then it would still be against import policy to allow you to sell in the US, since it would violate said patent....

[Lohman446]

Alright thanks bro..

And i'll be mass producing them.. Probablly about 1000 for the first run..

I was thinking of stealing the nerve, and shocker from smart parts, getting a 1000 of each made, and selling them at 100-200 less with break beam eyes instead of crappy *** reflective...

I'm in Canada to, so SP shouldn't be able to touch me with their electro patent, and I doubt they paid the big $$'s for a worldwide patent on the nerver or shocker, so we'll see.. lol.

:rofl: This was so good... :rofl: gods.. I cant stop. You know SP never sues anyone anywhere right :rolleyes: I mean WDP was based across the pond :rofl:

[Disasster]

You want to borrow from an existing design, add features and sell it for less money? The body will be your own design? Have you looked into CNC machining costs? I'm guessing no, and I think you're in for a nasty surprise.

sixx

I'm Digits bro...and yes we do know how much it costs to get it milled. We are getting it done at a place where you have to get like 500+ of them made for them to start making them for you. We dont know if they can forsure do it untill 1-2 weeks and then they'll tell how much each one is and how many we have to make. It should'nt cost that much considering to get a dirt bike made its only 700 and there like 2000+ new

[Digits]

You want to borrow from an existing design, add features and sell it for less money? The body will be your own design? Have you looked into CNC machining costs? I'm guessing no, and I think you're in for a nasty surprise.

sixx


No, i'm not in for a nasty suprise.. Basically we would be getting these markers made in a factory in China that makes things like dirtbikes, quads for honda, showers, generators ect, all at a reduced cost.

[RRfireblade]

I'm Digits bro...and yes we do know how much it costs to get it milled. We are getting it done at a place where you have to get like 500+ of them made for them to start making them for you. We dont know if they can forsure do it untill 1-2 weeks and then they'll tell how much each one is and how many we have to make. It should'nt cost that much considering to get a dirt bike made its only 700 and there like 2000+ new

Just a thought but in the quantitiy your talking about, you could very likely just have SP build you a custom version. That sure would save you alot of a hassle and possibly even save you some cash.Not to mention the fact that's it's pretty much a given that people will spend MORE for a custom version so you end up doing even better and with a whole lot less work.Not to mention trying to skirt the impending legal action, warranty issues and all the other related costs and liabilities that typically keeps every one else in the business from doing what you guys are planning. ;)

[Disasster]

Just a thought but in the quantitiy your talking about, you could very likely just have SP build you a custom version. That sure would save you alot of a hassle and possibly even save you some cash.Not to mention the fact that's it's pretty much a given that people will spend MORE for a custom version so you end up doing even better and with a whole lot less work.Not to mention trying to skirt the impending legal action, warranty issues and all the other related costs and liabilities that typically keeps every one else in the business from doing what you guys are planning. ;)

ya.....but knowing SP they would charge like 700+ a gun, also i really really hate SP.

[Digits]

Just a thought but in the quantitiy your talking about, you could very likely just have SP build you a custom version. That sure would save you alot of a hassle and possibly even save you some cash.Not to mention the fact that's it's pretty much a given that people will spend MORE for a custom version so you end up doing even better and with a whole lot less work.Not to mention trying to skirt the impending legal action, warranty issues and all the other related costs and liabilities that typically keeps every one else in the business from doing what you guys are planning. ;)

lol ya.. I really want timmies.. I just sort of hate smart parts so I would like to copy their gun, and sell it for like 300 less.. But if i'm guerenteed to be in court, I would rather not.. Does anyone know what bob long has patents on for his guns? (like bolt design, reg design, clammy's, anything specific that we would want to avoid replicating?)

[wispaintstyle]

Maybe I'll jump the border for one.

[Digits]

Maybe I'll jump the border for one.

lol if we got the price we were looking for .. The guns would be reaaly cheap compared to other timmies, even 2k2's ;)

[Digits]

Now for an even tougher question.. How does one go about getting ahold of manike?

[Creative Mayhem]

I could get a hold of him, but I know him and he WILL NOT go ANYWHERE near this.

[Disasster]

all we would do is pay him to make us the design and then the rest is on us, he would not have done anyhting wrong if we did get sued or whatever.

[Lohman446]

all we would do is pay him to make us the design and then the rest is on us, he would not have done anyhting wrong if we did get sued or whatever.


All we want him to do is knowingly design something in violation of numerous court upheld patents... no big deal :rolleyes:

[Digits]

I really don't feel like arguing, but believe me, we will make sure we don't violate any patents associated with the timmy (ie. Specific bolt design).. The only patent we might have to violate would be the SP one, which we will talk to lawyers for ways around.

[teufelhunden]

Manike WORKS for NPS.. why would he design something for a ripoff competitor?

Oh, by the way, your idea will never work.

[frop]

I think it's cool that you're trying to go through with this. On the topic of Manike, what would be illegal about designing a custom body?
All we want him to do is knowingly design something in violation of numerous court upheld patents... no big deal

[Disasster]

Manike WORKS for NPS.. why would he design something for a ripoff competitor?

Oh, by the way, your idea will never work.


Teufelhunden - explain how this would be a ripoff?

Frop - Thanks for the support, glad to see some people would like to spend less money on timmy that works just as good as a ND, Dark ect.

[RRfireblade]

It would be quite a conflict of interest for Manike to build a part for something that infringes on the Patent holdings of the company the signs his pay check. ;) Just a guess though.

As for getting around SP Patents, That's cute. :) But who knows,I supposed it's possible that the multitude of Patent attorneys under retainer by basically the entire industry of paintball and who have been trying to get around SP, at basically any cost, for the last 3-5 years has missed something

Let us know how that works out for ya.

Or better yet.........


Instead of trying to emulate the low life,scum sucking,bottom feeder, rip off artist of the world, why not try and develop an original idea?


Just a thought. :rolleyes:

[RRfireblade]

Just wanted to add that I hope that didn't sound mean or something, I didn't mean for it to be directly at you guys.

I do give you credit for wanting to do 'something' on your own.


Lastly, if your just wanting a different bodied/edition timmy you can also just commision a Timmy version in a similar fashion as SP does.

If you think there really needs to be another style Timmy that is. :D

(there happen to be a few low cost Timmy rips out already as well)

[Bob_da_Splatman]

Instead of trying to emulate the low life,scum sucking,bottom feeder, rip off artist of the world, why not try and develop an original idea?

so let me get this straight ...you plan on coping a current design for internals and then pay someone for the exterior design .....exactly what part of this gun is your ideal ???
And another thing is that the fact that you have some cheap cnc co. to mill it doesnt realy give me that good quality feeling that most cnc places that are a little higher on the food chain.

..,.And everybody knows that if you what cheap work go to india and mass produce it in a sweat shop with little indian children with sand paper and chistles!!!! :rolleyes:

[tyrion2323]

I want you to read the following quotations. Then I want you to read the last question which you posed. Then I want you to smack yourself in the forehead with a textbook.


If I were to make a new marker based on the timmy design, where it was almost the same as a timmy internally, but the body was different would I be infringing on patents?

BTW, I'm in Canada.



Alright thanks bro..

And i'll be mass producing them.. Probablly about 1000 for the first run..

I was thinking of stealing the nerve, and shocker from smart parts, getting a 1000 of each made, and selling them at 100-200 less with break beam eyes instead of crappy *** reflective...

I'm in Canada to, so SP shouldn't be able to touch me with their electro patent, and I doubt they paid the big $$'s for a worldwide patent on the nerver or shocker, so we'll see.. lol.



I'm Digits bro...and yes we do know how much it costs to get it milled. We are getting it done at a place where you have to get like 500+ of them made for them to start making them for you. We dont know if they can forsure do it untill 1-2 weeks and then they'll tell how much each one is and how many we have to make. It should'nt cost that much considering to get a dirt bike made its only 700 and there like 2000+ new



no, i'm not in for a nasty suprise.. Basically we would be getting these markers made in a factory in China that makes things like dirtbikes, quads for honda, showers, generators ect, all at a reduced cost.



lol ya.. I really want timmies.. I just sort of hate smart parts so I would like to copy their gun, and sell it for like 300 less.. But if i'm guerenteed to be in court, I would rather not.. Does anyone know what bob long has patents on for his guns? (like bolt design, reg design, clammy's, anything specific that we would want to avoid replicating?)







explain how this would be a ripoff?

[Deep Sixx]

Dang it... where's an "owned" pic when ya need one?!

sixx

[Creative Mayhem]

:rofl:

[manike]

Sorry guys but due to my contract I can't design anything for anyone in paintball unless NPS allows it, but thanks for the thought. :)

And your chance of getting NPS to allow me to help someone make a knock off timmy... :rofl: and to be honest I wouldn't want to do that anyway. Sorry.

Hardest thing in the world is to be innovative/original.

[Mole1119]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
GENIUS!!

[Digits]

I want you to read the following quotations. Then I want you to read the last question which you posed. Then I want you to smack yourself in the forehead with a textbook.


honestly, I don't feel like arguing.. But seriouslly, you guys are worse then PBN.. I said the SP thing as a joke.. ok?

We will be making Timmy LIKE guns.. Obviouslly the way it works will be ripped off, but what guns arn't ripped of the timmy or tix today that actually shoot good?.. Minus the Viking, and Freestyle.

[Lohman446]

honestly, I don't feel like arguing.. But seriouslly, quit trying to act like your something, your an idiot.. I said the SP thing as a joke.. ok?


Wait a minute...

You came on, said you wanted to copy the Intimidator functional design (oh, but the body might be different). You than went on to say screw that, I'm going to copy the markers of a company known for being litigous (sp). You then asked where you could get hold of one of the designers for the first company presumedly so he could help you undercut the company he works for. You were going to do this by employing third world labor and engineering. And your calling who an idiot? Now I'm not trying to stand in the way of innovation... and I'm not, there would have to be innovation to stand in the way of.

Hey, AGD - I think I'm going to reverse engineer a valve, rail, trigger assembly. But the bodies gonna be different. Can I do that? LOL - the hilarious part about this is the markers known as the Patriot and the Colonial. But you get the point

[Digits]

Sorry guys but due to my contract I can't design anything for anyone in paintball unless NPS allows it, but thanks for the thought. :)

And your chance of getting NPS to allow me to help someone make a knock off timmy... :rofl: and to be honest I wouldn't want to do that anyway. Sorry.

Hardest thing in the world is to be innovative/original.

I figured this.. I mean you did design alot of the 2k4's, and I had a feeling you worked for bob long, or NPS, or someone of that matter.. Don't worry though, we will be working on a more original design after the timmy forsure, maybe even before.. We just know that we could make a nice profit selling markers based off of the timmy design to get development of a new type of marker off the ground.

[manike]

Good luck with the 'new type of marker' always nice to see something new. :)

[Digits]

Wait a minute...

You came on, said you wanted to copy the Intimidator functional design (oh, but the body might be different). You than went on to say screw that, I'm going to copy the markers of a company known for being litigous (sp). You then asked where you could get hold of one of the designers for the first company presumedly so he could help you undercut the company he works for. You were going to do this by employing third world labor and engineering. And your calling who an idiot? Now I'm not trying to stand in the way of innovation... and I'm not, there would have to be innovation to stand in the way of.

Hey, AGD - I think I'm going to reverse engineer a valve, rail, trigger assembly. But the bodies gonna be different. Can I do that? LOL - the hilarious part about this is the markers known as the Patriot and the Colonial. But you get the point

No offense to AGD, but no one would copy their valve system..

#1 It's out of date technology in todays tournament scene.. They make for good mech guns, but thats it. AGD even admits to this, they are awsome for durability and reliability but once you make them electro they have problems.

#2 The SP was a joke.. Shockers, and imps suck (i've owned a shocker, my brother an imp).. I hate them. Nerves.. Nothing special, the only reason I would copy a smart parts marker would be to sell for a reduced cost.

#3 Where do you think the majority of your stuff gets made? Check for the classic, "Made in China" quote on product, ya, exactly. The same factory that would make these guns, makes motors for hondas Dirtbikes, and Quads.

#4 I'm not employing them, it's a factory with over 15000 workers, they're employed wether we get paintball guns made or not.

#5 Manike is one of the best gun designers out their, I knew their was a 99% chance of him saying no, but it doesn't hurt to ask.. Plus I wasn't 100% positive on whether or not he worked for a company associated with Bob Long, or was just paid to make the designs.

[Digits]

Good luck with the 'new type of marker' always nice to see something new. :)

Thanks, lol.. Now, to think of something 100% original, so all of AO wont bash us for trying to bring popular types of markers at a reduuuceeed cost :p ;)

[Lohman446]

[QUOTE=Digits]
#3 Where do you think the majority of your stuff gets made? Check for the classic, "Made in China" quote on product, ya, exactly. The same factory that would make these guns, makes motors for hondas Dirtbikes, and Quads.
QUOTE]

You do understand the tolerance differences between a quad, a dirtbike, and something designed to hold 100+ PSI consantly right? Anyways, Im just harassing you for fun, no hard feelings

[Digits]

lol tis all good.. And yes I understand.. Thats why I want to send them a working prototype that they could just replicate 100%, and hopefully.. lol..

Anywayes, it doesn't matter for now.. We wont even know if they will be able to do this for another week, so the waiting game begins.

[tyrion2323]

honestly, I don't feel like arguing.. But seriouslly, quit trying to act like your something, your an idiot.. I said the SP thing as a joke.. ok?

Maybe...but an idiot who can spell tough words like seriously and you're!!!

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Disasster]

Maybe...but an idiot who can spell tough words like seriously and you're!!!

:eek: :eek: :eek:

SERIOUSLY stfu and get a life ;)

Not everyone is as good as you at spelling :rofl:

[Digits]

Maybe...but an idiot who can spell tough words like seriously and you're!!!

:eek: :eek: :eek:

I won't hide it..

#1) I don't try to hard spelling on the interenet, for the simple fact that no matter what everyone will make mistakes, if it's comprehendable, then good enough.. But still, i'm finding this place worse then pbnation right now, atleast they would show support, not just bash the idea.

#2) I'm naturally a crappy speller, I won't lie.. I suck at spelling..


It doesn't matter anywayes though, I don't feel like responding to people here (the negative ones anywayes).. I found a few interested CAD designers with 10+ years of experience, so it's all good.

It's just going to be expensive :rofl:

[teufelhunden]

You're wrong about Nation. They would've flamed you personally, not your ideas.

Basically, what you're trying to do is copy the Timmy design [like a few others have done recently] and sell them for "cheap," despite the fact that the costs to you will be high because getting a factory into gear to do what you want is not cheap, and neither is the work, despite what honda motors they make..

And still turn a profit? Sorry, it's already been done, and probably better..

[Pacifist_Farmer]

everything about this thread is illegal

:nono:

[Disasster]

everything about this thread is illegal

:nono:

not all of it :)

[Digits]

You're wrong about Nation. They would've flamed you personally, not your ideas.

Basically, what you're trying to do is copy the Timmy design [like a few others have done recently] and sell them for "cheap," despite the fact that the costs to you will be high because getting a factory into gear to do what you want is not cheap, and neither is the work, despite what honda motors they make..

And still turn a profit? Sorry, it's already been done, and probably better..

you have no idea what your talking about..

The statement you posted was 100% ignorant, you have no idea how much it even costs for this stuff to get made in a factory like the one im talking about (15000+ workers)..

I'll leave it at that..

[teufelhunden]

you have no idea what your talking about..

The statement you posted was 100% ignorant, you have no idea how much it even costs for this stuff to get made in a factory like the one im talking about (15000+ workers)..

I'll leave it at that..


You're right, I've never looked into having knock off Intimidator bodies made.

However, I do have a general idea of machining costs, even in a factory with 15k workers. Especially on things that need tolerances as tight [respectively..] as paintball guns, because of the pressures involved..

[Lohman446]

lol tis all good.. And yes I understand.. Thats why I want to send them a working prototype that they could just replicate 100%, and hopefully.. lol..

Anywayes, it doesn't matter for now.. We wont even know if they will be able to do this for another week, so the waiting game begins.


The problem I see with replication, and remember I am being nice here, is to what degree. Give me a board, tell me to replicate another board to within an inch - no problem

Tell me to replicate that board to a half inch, a quarter inch, and eight of an inch - with each attempt it becomes harder, and thus more costly.

Now tell me to replicate that board to what it takes to hold air pressure at 100 PSI +.... you have a problem.

The first is getting the right measurements off the original - the theory behind why you don't have other mag rails (select are out there) is because you would have to measure it too closely to make it work right. Depending on how close you are measuring in three dimensions that can get really really costly.

Next is machining to those dimensions, again the tigther the tolerances, the more it costs.

I think this is one of the things that you may not be taking as seriously in your considerations as you should. It is not the overall size that is going to cost you, or even the pattern, it is the tolerances you will need to hold. Though I will admit I may be wrong on how tight those tolerances are.

[Disasster]

You're right, I've never looked into having knock off Intimidator bodies made.

However, I do have a general idea of machining costs, even in a factory with 15k workers. Especially on things that need tolerances as tight [respectively..] as paintball guns, because of the pressures involved..

man shut the *POOF* up....omg its a new body, its gota be a knock off Intimidator. Like what the *POOF*,If you say this will be a knock off then all the other 2k4 Intimidator out there except for the first one made are kock off's. You know why...well its becasue there all the same with different milling, this makeing them all of them except the first one made A I'M AN INARTICULATE TOOL AND CAN'T READ THE FORUM RULES, AND REALLY WANT TO GET BANNED FOR 3 DAYS...PLEASE, PLEASE... And i dont care who made it, or if they paid bob cause the fact is that it was a copy of the first one made makeing it a knock off in your opinion, not mine ;)

O, and by the way, we were planing on makeing the whole gun, not just the body, not that that matters anyways cause were gona scap the idea and just try and make a whole new gun since we get all this hate on trying to make a timmy affordable to the people who have a harder time getting money.

[Pacifist_Farmer]

Do you have your marketing squared away?

What about venture capital?

Do you all have homes? Mortgage, them all.

Are you prepared to cough up all the money and then sit around for 6 weeks before they crank out the first gun?

And sure if you can buy several thousand in a whack they'll be much cheaper, but then you need storage, speaking of numbers, who's doing assembly?

Once the guns together, you gotta test some...

Oops there an operating gun, now we need warranties. Which means customer service.

oh hey now you need some more employees, oh and lawyers, cause your gonna get your a**es sued for something or another.


phew I'm tired...

[Disasster]

yes,yes,yes, and yes, i know what the consequences are and im willing to take them, i know you have to test every gun to make sure they work, i know that im probably gona get sued, i know im gona need customer service, I'v thought all of it through. Like i said, we dont even know if they can make them so i'll leave it at that.

[Digits]

Don't listen to Disasster's swearing.. He has an anger problem on forums :p lol..

Pacifist - A couple guys put down a million dollars so that the factory would make products with their company name on it, these same guys asked if we wanted in on it.

Also, to people talking about tolerences, I don't know if this would be the same idea.. But the factory produces a crapload of products which include things like generators. I'm sure they make products which have tight tolerences similar to paintball guns.

But yes, we decided that we would be more original. The gun we make will probablly be based after the timmy design (what isn't based after the matrix, or timmy design in todays industry? Minus the cocker and mag, which IMO are inferior designs [although I think the mag is better, but you really have to know the guns to not have any problems. But I did have an electro frame on mine, so that might of contributed]).

As for lawyers, we already have one being that their is a familly chemical company in the buisness which has been sued before. Also a cousin of the familly was one of the lawyers who represented OJ Simpson, so maybe he'd lend a helping hand if absolutly need be ;).