WARNING to everyone! M.A.X. cannot anodize Automags. (Please Read)

[Empyreal Rogue]

Okay, about 4 or 5 weeks ago I sent my marker off to M.A.X. Anodizing to get it anodized. I spoke with them over the phone and told them about my Automag and how particular they can be. The guy I spoke to said, "Oh it's no problem we've done them before." I was kind of skeptical at first but I thought, "Ah what the hell!" I got it in the mail last week and it looked GORGEOUS. Absolutely beautiful, I couldn't have asked for a better job. However, little did I know what was about to happen.

On the AO-Mid-Atlantic day (Earlier today, actually) the gun just went to hell in a hand-basket. FragTek diagnosed it and said the body, rail or frame lost it tolerances with a valve. The parts will work individually but together they won't. Now I don't exactly understand how it works but basically, they didn't know what they were doing simply because they get VERY few Automags. It may be a Valve problem as well, but my marker didn't work with my X-Valve nor my friend's ReTro-Valve or another friend's E-Mag valve.

Now sure you guys could just blame me for this but I don't care. In fact, this incident actually gave me the opportunity to buy a DevilMag that I've wanted for so long, but that's not the point. The point is to warn AO's Automag owners from doing the same thing I did. I'd suggest Tunaman or White Wolf because they're certified Automag techies so they know what they're doing. WW may take a LONG time on projects compared to M.A.X. but if you go with M.A.X. you have a chance of getting a marker that flat-out doesn't work since they don't know how to work with Automags.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

Contact them. That is completely unacceptable. You sould get some sort of compensation. They usually do very high quality work.

[evan123]

Your fault for deciding to go with the color of a gun over the performance of the devilmag.

[MonsterMag]

WOW :eek:

thats sucks, is there anyway to fix it? like take the crapy anno off?

[Empyreal Rogue]

Your fault for deciding to go with the color of a gun over the performance of the devilmag.

Actually I wasn't able to afford a DevilMag before I sent it to be Anodized. And when I started this marker he was using the Hyperframe, which I despise. :X But if I part it out then I can get most of the money for one.

WenULiVeUdiE, I'm definitely going to call them. If they can't give me any compensation then I will at least demand they do something about Automags in the future.

[DiSoRdeR]

That sucks, I hope every thing gets resolved in the end.

[Muzikman]

Damn, how thick is that damn ano? I have not heard many storied of tolerances being thrown off by ano. I know it can happen, especially when they are tight, but still strange.

[BobTheCow]

thats sucks, is there anyway to fix it? like take the crapy anno off?It's not the color of the material... do you know how annodzing works? In a nutshell, you basically alter the composition of the material being ano'd, and so if you don't do it right, you totally mess up the actual metal that's being colored. Which seems like it happened to Rogue. Sorry to hear that man, hope it all works out!!

[paintballer187]

How can anyone else do anything different when anodizing? Isn't anno the same thickness from company to company?

[GT]

Your fault for deciding to go with the color of a gun over the performance of the devilmag.


slow down sweetie,
hwo was it is fualt? Donest the anno company bear some responsibility for excepting the work. Tuna has his cutsom Emags annoed all the time, not to mention the number of X mag woners who have hade there guns done. Sounds to me like someone screwed up and it wasnt the owner..

[paintballer187]

slow down sweetie,
hwo was it is fualt? Donest the anno company bear some responsibility for excepting the work. Tuna has his cutsom Emags annoed all the time, not to mention the number of X mag woners who have hade there guns done. Sounds to me like someone screwed up and it wasnt the owner..

I think he was being sarcastic.

[Empyreal Rogue]

slow down sweetie,
hwo was it is fualt? Donest the anno company bear some responsibility for excepting the work. Tuna has his cutsom Emags annoed all the time, not to mention the number of X mag woners who have hade there guns done. Sounds to me like someone screwed up and it wasnt the owner..

This is why I love the guys at AO. :)

[evan123]

Why would a automag be differnt then any other gun after Annoing it?

[GT]

I think he was being sarcastic.


I never know unless they use smilies. Kids these days, you wold be amazed at some of the crap I heard at the field today. I swear companies are going to start selling guns with matching appereal.

[Empyreal Rogue]

Why would a automag be differnt then any other gun after Annoing it?

I believe because of the way the sear releases the bolt and how thick the anodizing was put on. I honestly don't know, I can just guess.

And to be honest, I don't think they even stripped my parts of the original anodizing which is why it's so thick. I am certainly going to contact them about it.

[personman]

Why would a automag be differnt then any other gun after Annoing it?
Because most other guns' tolerences arent affected by annodizing. How the body and rail fits together directly affects the length of the on/off pin.
Most other guns have 1 piece bodies, while mags have 2.

[tony3]

I believe because of the way the sear releases the bolt and how thick the anodizing was put on. I honestly don't know, I can just guess.

And to be honest, I don't think they even stripped my parts of the original anodizing which is why it's so thick. I am certainly going to contact them about it.

You can't just anno over old anno, its impossible. You HAVE to strip it off. Right now the pores of the metal are filled. If you need to anno you need to get the anno into the metal, and if the pores are filled, you can't get it to stay. It's impossible. If they don't fix it, or give you money to fix it, thats completely unacceptable.

[Empyreal Rogue]

I know Tony, but you know how the standard AGD ULE Body ano feels like you're rubbing Nylon? It has a rough feel to it and has that Nylon sound? Well I can still feel and even hear that over the Dust finish. It's odd, I know.

If they won't do anything, blood will be shed.

[Creative Mayhem]

I have NEVER heard of an anno job doing any damage that affects the tolerances. This is a first. IF it was stripped wrong, there could be too much metal taken off, but that shouldn't affect it that much. I know for a fact that powdercoating does affect due to making the parts significantly thicker, but anno does not have the same effect. The only thing i can think of is the combination of stripping too much off and a possible issue with the actual processes used by M.A.X. I would suggest you find out what the EXACT step they used for the strippng and re anno of your parts. Good luck

[tony3]

I know Tony, but you know how the standard AGD ULE Body ano feels like you're rubbing Nylon? It has a rough feel to it and has that Nylon sound? Well I can still feel and even hear that over the Dust finish. It's odd, I know.

If they won't do anything, blood will be shed.

It doesn't matter if its odd, it is impossible.

[BradAGD]

The anodizing didn't BUILD up a thickness, metal was REMOVED in the stripped process.

Send it down and I'll take a look. We work close with Max and I can tell for sure who is to blame.

cool?

[Rokudon]

I have NEVER heard of an anno job doing any damage that affects the tolerances. This is a first. IF it was stripped wrong, there could be too much metal taken off, but that shouldn't affect it that much. I know for a fact that powdercoating does affect due to making the parts significantly thicker, but anno does not have the same effect. The only thing i can think of is the combination of stripping too much off and a possible issue with the actual processes used by M.A.X. I would suggest you find out what the EXACT step they used for the strippng and re anno of your parts. Good luck
look another canadian! anyway annos do change thickness, considering it is a chemical change, and it does create crystaline aluminum oxide (which provides all its strength, and the layer also prevents more rusting). the process of annodizing is to rust the aluminum even more by exposing it to a very strong electrolyte (acids), and adding a cathode into the mixture, and completing the circuit form anode to cathode. it causes abnormal and accelerated rust to the point where the layer is thicker than normal and can take much more punishment before exposing more raw aluminum. unless i'm interpretting the picture wrong that i found on Doc Nickel's website ( in which i severely doubt, because it clearly shows that there will be a deviation in material thickness after anno) it WILL change thickness of parts. or of course, you could ignore the ramblings of a kid who spends too much time surfing on the net and taking too many sumemr engineering courses :D

[ScatterPlot]

I'm pretty sure that annoing something adds SOME material. Very little, but there is some I think. Like somewhere in the order of .0005 to .001 or something. But couldn't this issue be resolved by maybe lengthening the sear rod? Cause the on/off will stop as far as it goes in cause the sear will hit the bottom of the on/off body. The extent is goverened (I thought) by the amount that the pin will go out of the body. So if the pin is allowed to move to either extent, will it not work? I would like some clarification on this issue because of a project or two that I am working on.

[UThomas]

Max does incredible anno.

Did they disassemble and reassemble your gun?

[Tunaman]

I'd bet money on the fact that the anno is fine and the marker just needs to be set up correctly. I have noit seen one mag ruined yet because of an anno job. I'll take a look at it if you like. I am sure it can be straightened out. ;)

[Echo419]

Those basterds.... dude that effin blows, are you able to play it with it (i know u stated a tech said u couldnt) but like can u shoot it? Cuz u can always likes shoot it until it bends or sum****, and be like MAX U motha!!! u coulda killed me... here comes the better business beurae (oh eff it i cant spell it), and there be like heres 5 free bodies :clap:

[luke]

didn't work with my X-Valve nor my friend's ReTro-Valve or another friend's E-Mag valve.

I have a hard time believing it's the anno when it didn't work in 3 different guns..

[mirthvader]

I would doubt the anno has affected the tolerances so much that the gun won't operate. It is possible but highly unlikely. Take up Brad's offer and send it to him. It's probably just an assembly issue or a valve problem.

[Mosfet]

I'd bet money on the fact that the anno is fine and the marker just needs to be set up correctly. I have noit seen one mag ruined yet because of an anno job. I'll take a look at it if you like. I am sure it can be straightened out. ;)

What the heck was annoed to ruin the mag? Were the Valve and Reg internals anno'd or something? Sounds like user error to me. If MAX ruins mags, then they sure as heck must ruin Trixes and Shockers as well.

[Empyreal Rogue]

I have a hard time believing it's the anno when it didn't work in 3 different guns..

Ask ANYONE at the AO-Mid-Atlantic event, they'll prove to you that my marker didn't work with 3 different and properly tuned valves.

M.A.X. said they could do the Valve, I told asked them prior to me sending the marker (in separate pieces) if they could do it and they said "Yes. We have done Automags before, it won't be a problem." I even told them that Automag Valves can be very difficult to do and they said, "It's not a problem." So if it's my fault, I guess you can argue that but they assured me they could do it with no problems.

I'm not razzing on their business, it's great! Customer Service was A+, the job done was more than I could have asked for, they just didn't know exactly HOW picky the whole setup can be. I'm going to call them after school today and see what they say, then I'll decide what to do from there.

[Mosfet]

so it was the valve?
that makes sense. I was thinking it was maybe just the body. :P

I've heard that with valves, and with regular HPRs and LPRs in general to very carefull about having them annoed, or even better, to just not have em re annoed at all.

[Empyreal Rogue]

No! You're totally missing what I'm saying.

I own 1 Valve, an X-Valve. That didn't work with my Marker.
My friend owns a ReTro-Valve. That didn't work with my Marker. His ReTro works perfectly with his marker.
My friend owns an E-Mag Valve. That didn't work with my marker. His E-Mag Valve works perfectly with his RTP.

That's what I'm saying.

[Mosfet]

OK, now that is definately weird.

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

I had my e-mag completely anodized by them and everything turned out PERFECT so im not sure what your talking about, they can do mags just fine... mabey you just were unlucky, eitherway talk to them about it im sure it will be resloved.

[Titansu]

M.A.X. said they could do the Valve, I told asked them prior to me sending the marker (in separate pieces) if they could do it and they said "Yes. We have done Automags before, it won't be a problem." I even told them that Automag Valves can be very difficult to do and they said, "It's not a problem." So if it's my fault, I guess you can argue that but they assured me they could do it with no problems.


No! You're totally missing what I'm saying.

I own 1 Valve, an X-Valve. That didn't work with my Marker.
My friend owns a ReTro-Valve. That didn't work with my Marker. His ReTro works perfectly with his marker.
My friend owns an E-Mag Valve. That didn't work with my marker. His E-Mag Valve works perfectly with his RTP.

That's what I'm saying.

I just scanned through this thread - not reading into much detail...

Did you also get your valve anno-ed? I understand that your friends' valves didn't work in your mag, but did your anno-ed valve work in thiers? I also assume you're using the correct on/off configurations for each type of Mag (Emag, RT, Auto etc...)

[phantomhitman]

i was at the ao meet, and watched this madness unfold. this is not rogues fault at all. the anno looks good by the way, but that is useless if the gun doesnt work.

we thought there was a problem with the x valve, so we not only used a retro valve but a emag valve to test in his body. same issues. there could be an insane chance that all 3 valves messed up on this gun, but not likely. i am thinking it is the rail or the body anno being too thick, but i can definately be wrong. send it off to tuna, he should narrow down what the heck is wrong in no time. :cheers:

[UThomas]

So did you put the gun back together or did Max?

[teufelhunden]

Damnit fellas, you can't keep saying the anno is nice without pics!

And on that note, good luck in solving this.

[Automaggot68]

Those basterds.... dude that effin blows, are you able to play it with it (i know u stated a tech said u couldnt) but like can u shoot it? Cuz u can always likes shoot it until it bends or sum****, and be like MAX U motha!!! u coulda killed me... here comes the better business beurae (oh eff it i cant spell it), and there be like heres 5 free bodies :clap:

It always lights up my day on AO, when i wake up--and cannot read another person's post.

[Creative Mayhem]

M.A.X. said they could do the Valve, I told asked them prior to me sending the marker (in separate pieces) if they could do it and they said "Yes. We have done Automags before, it won't be a problem." I even told them that Automag Valves can be very difficult to do and they said, "It's not a problem." So if it's my fault, I guess you can argue that but they assured me they could do it with no problems.



YOU REANNO'D THE VALVE?!?!?!

*SMACK*DUMBASS*SMACK* ;)

[Empyreal Rogue]

They said they could do it...... :(

[Creative Mayhem]

of course they could, but does that mean they should?

[cphilip]

Ask ANYONE at the AO-Mid-Atlantic event, they'll prove to you that my marker didn't work with 3 different and properly tuned valves.

.

Both Tuna and Brad have offered to look at it. I would do the same but its obvious you have convinced yourself it can't be fixed. I think it can. So far you have not put it in the hands of a competent tech to do that.... I suggest you do so. Its possible it needs a On Off pin specialy made for it. Thats about all.... Your method of testing it was flawed. You are skiping several things.

And it is Possible to over polish one and do this. But its possible that someone that knows what there doing can compensate for that.

[The Frymarker]

Both Tuna and Brad have offered to look at it. I would do the same but its obvious you have convinced yourself it can't be fixed. I think it can. So far you have not put it in the hands of a competent tech to do that.... I suggest you do so. Its possible it needs a On Off pin specialy made for it. Thats about all.... Your method of testing it was flawed. You are skiping several things.

And it is Possible to over polish one and do this. But its possible that someone that knows what there doing can compensate for that.


Yeah send it to Tunaman or Brad, they'll get to the bottom of it :)

[G3PB]

I'd bet money it's nothing that can't be easily fixed. I have a Mag here that came from Eclipse many years ago....any valve that is used with this rail requires .080 to be ground off the on/off pin in order to function. Sometimes, they're so close that any change will alter it's dynamics. It rarely happens, but it does happen. I've been a certified AGD tech for years and I have seen this happen more than once.....no big deal if you know what you're doing.

Send it to one of the techs on this site, I'm sure they can get it to function.

[Empyreal Rogue]

Both Tuna and Brad have offered to look at it. I would do the same but its obvious you have convinced yourself it can't be fixed. I think it can. So far you have not put it in the hands of a competent tech to do that.... I suggest you do so. Its possible it needs a On Off pin specialy made for it. Thats about all.... Your method of testing it was flawed. You are skiping several things.

And it is Possible to over polish one and do this. But its possible that someone that knows what there doing can compensate for that.

No, I'm going to do something. Fireblade actually asked me first in a PM and I needed to send some stuff to him anyway.

[daviselk]

i hope it gets settleed out man! good luck :D

Edit:/ after posting i wondered if i had 100 posts yet.. thought i had like 50.. guess not! ha! :clap:

[hitech]

Did you contact them first before "trashing" them here? "Trashing" them here is a bad idea before contacting them. :nono: I had a problem with something I sent to someone here on AO. However, BEFORE trashing them I contacted them about making it right. Guess what, they DID! :clap: And they paid for shipping BOTH ways. Cost me NOTHING extra. Had I complained here first I doubt they would have been so accommodating. And why should they. You're trashing their reputation here.

You should have contacted them first. :(

[ScatterPlot]

You said that it doesn't work. Exactly WHAT will it not do EXACTLY? You might have already said it but I could've missed it.

[Empyreal Rogue]

It just doesn't work. It leaks like crazy out of the front and wouldn't cycle. The sear never came forward far enough to allow me to fire once. It did that on all 3 valves and all three had nearly perfectly tuned LXs with the smallest spring. I'm guessing I might need a custom On/Off pin like someone had suggested.

UThomas, I put it back together. And on the AO Day Ho and I put it back together again. I highly doubt it was a user error, though it's possible I could be wrong.

hitech, if trashing them also includes praising their work and customer service then I think you -may- want to re-think my intentions and your definition of "trashing". First off before I said ANYTHING I stated how excellent of a company they were. In fact, I stated that several times. I said they did a superb job and their customer service was above and beyond. 180 dollars for an anodizing of this quality in 3 weeks and free shipping was more than what I bargained for. I simply stated when it comes to Automags they don't have the knowledge that Tuna or WW have, or even Fireblade, when it comes to Automags.

[hitech]

It just doesn't work...I simply stated when it comes to Automags they don't have the knowledge that Tuna or WW have, or even Fireblade, when it comes to Automags.

Even with all the other good thing you said about them, YES, I would consider this "trashing" them. You still should have called them first. They might have sent it to someone to fix for you. The work closely with a Brad; maybe they would have sent it to him. Maybe not, but you never gave them the chance to make it right. And you are basically telling people to not send them a 'mag without giving them the chance to fix a possible mistake. I don't think you should do that.

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

everyone keeps saying ANO being too thick, anodizing is not like powdercoating of painting... if anything it they could have left the parts in the deanodizing soulution too long and it ate away at the metal too much but u cant have anodizing that is TOO THICK...

[FragTek]

everyone keeps saying ANO being too thick, anodizing is not like powdercoating of painting... if anything it they could have left the parts in the deanodizing soulution too long and it ate away at the metal too much but u cant have anodizing that is TOO THICK...

Did he really just say "you cant have anodizing that is too thick" ? Sorry to burst el bubble, but yes, an ano CAN be to thick.

[ScatterPlot]

It just doesn't work. It leaks like crazy out of the front and wouldn't cycle. The sear never came forward far enough to allow me to fire once. It did that on all 3 valves and all three had nearly perfectly tuned LXs with the smallest spring. I'm guessing I might need a custom On/Off pin like someone had suggested.



Did you try shoving a squeegee into the barrel to reset the bolt? I'm a little confused as to what the sear coming foreward means. Do you mean holding the bolt back or what?

[Empyreal Rogue]

The sear pin. The little tip that the trigger hits to release the bolt. That never came forward.

[ScatterPlot]

Oh, gotcha. If it hasn't been like welded in place like some people do (ok not weld but some glue) you might try lengthening it. But then again if you reset the bolt manually then it might come far enough foreward to get one shot off.

[rx2]

This is rather odd. I have had two different rails that are way out of tolerance, and they still work perfectly. One was built up to the point that the sear had to be pounded into the rail, and the other was stripped down so much that the sear would wobble around, and would also fall out when the rail was tipped upside down. I suspect that whomever you sent it to will be able to figure something out.

By the way, some people are confused about the types of anno. In a nutshell (and this is a really simplified breakdown), there are two basic ways to get your metal colored. There is a process by which a plating is applied first, and then this plate is stained, thus building up (typically a nickel based plate, which can chip). The traditional method, on the other hand, etches and oxidizes the metal, and the color is stained into this surface. This way removes a slight bit of metal. Both are generically referred to as anno, and both affect tolerances in opposite ways.

[ScatterPlot]

I'm pretty sure that normal anno will cause slight part growth... taken from here:
http://www.focuser.com/atm/anodize/anodize.html


Aluminum oxide is grown out of the surface during anodizing and then becomes aluminum hydrate that is extremely hard. The porous nature of the anodized layer allows the product to be dyed any color that is required. The method I describe is Type II anodizing (room temperature) and gives an anodized layer of .0002" to .001" (half which is grown into the surface and half out of the surface). Parts anodized will become slightly larger by about .0005"

Now that's not a lot, but it's not shrinking either...

[CoolHand]

The ano layer is "grown" out of the host metal. Usually 2/3 of the layer thickness goes out, 1/3 goes in. That's the general rule of thumb.

Ano can get quite thick, but not type three (sulfuric bath ano). A layer of type three ano that is 0.002" thick would be huge, gargantuine even. Type two ano (also known as "hard cote") can get really thick. Standard thicknesses start at about 0.003" IIRC.

Most tolerance changes associated with ano (or in this case re-ano) are caused by removing too much base metal with the old ano layer (a la left it in the stripping bath too long), rather than building up too much oxide. The ano will stop eventually (or rather reach an equilibrium point). The acid bath eats the ano layer, while the electricity running through the circuit drives the reaction to grow more ano. At first, the conductivity of the part is high, so the growth far outpaces the dissolution. However, the thicker the layer gets, the higher the resistance gets, and the less current is able to pass through the part. Thusly the growth of the oxide layer slows, and the dissolution rate remains the same. Eventually the growth rate will far under pace the dissolution rate, and the layer will actually start to get thinner.

What all that crap means is that there is a maximum possible thickness that is attainable with a given amperage (or current density) when dealing with a type three ano process.

At any rate, all that ano process stuff aside, I have personally tested the theory that mags can't take reano. I absolutely destroyed a Classic rail to test this. We stripped and reanoed this rail fifteen (15) times. After every time, we reassembled this marker and tested it for function. Not once did it fail to work correctly. The rear rail busing hole had enlarged from an original diameter of 0.25" to a new diameter of ~0.290" (it was a little bit less than round when we got done), effectively taking this rail 0.040" out of spec (it is fairly reasonable to assume that all the other holes would have been effected similarly), with no ill results (that I could find). Now, this was with a Classic rail, MM body, and Classic valve. I did find that when I went to put a ULT in the Classic, it had to have a bunch more shims to work correctly (after tuning the valve in a stock RTP rail).

My guess is that you just need to make some adjustments to get it running right again.

BTW, just out of curiousity, did you remember to put the steel washer and cir-clip back in? I've seen guys forget that when they put a body back together.

Hope you get is solved. Jeremy at MAX is a stand-up guy, he'll make sure you get taken care of.

[zeroack]

MAxx anno has had my mag parts twice now. I'm very very worried about how things will work now. When it frist got back from Maxx it was aweful. Some parts had not been stripped completely, some parts hadn't been annoed well, some parts hadn't been polished right. On top of that they charged about $120 more then they had originally quoted. This was on a single color grey polished anno job. Nothing fancy. It went back. I've yet to see it and that was over four months ago.

Parts they have....
Rogue Feedneck
Rogue Foregrip
Logic rail
Logic vert frame
ule body
JandJ edge tip
Data Pimp quick release

To make things worse I know other customers that have had things come from maxx over polished. They made a Sterling into a paper weight.

I'll repost when I get my parts which should be here soon I hope.

Zero

[CoolHand]

Recently, they have had trouble with their polishing crew doing too much, too little, etc. Jeremey told me that he has taken care of it, and given the quality of their work recently, I believe him.

Everyone has problems with their help at some point, hopfully he's either '86ed the guy who was the problem, or put him to doing something else.

Like I said, if you have a problem, call them and tell them. They will make it right.

Relax, Banana Man is still dancing, the world hasn't ended. :D

:dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:

[ScatterPlot]

I think you misread a zero in there, that was .0002 to .001. But thanks for the info, anno has always been somewhat mysterious to me.

On a side note, should you strip anno before applying a hydrocoat? And if I simply remove all the anno from my rail, would it screw up the tolerances? Not adding more, just stripping.