NEW Rules for Flying with Paintball Gear

[JJBrookshire]

Sewell, NJ - Historically the transportation of compressed air cylinders via commercial aircraft required you to empty the cylinder before checking it. This was true for paintball and SCUBA cylinders. Over the past couple of months the rules have changed. One interpretation of these rules required paintball markers to be treated as firearms and another would have allowed SCUBA tanks in overhead! In an exclusive interview with Ron Sokolov, TSA's Executive Director of Customer Service and Education, Paintball2Xtremes has learned that effective immediately, the rules are as follows:

Transporting Paintball Equipment

Some paintball gear can be transported on-board the aircraft. Please refer to the guidelines below:
Eye Protective Devices used in the sport of paintball are acceptable as checked or carry-on baggage.
Compressed gas cylinders are allowed in checked baggage ONLY if the regulator valve is completely disconnected from the cylinder and the cylinder is no longer sealed (i.e. the cylinder has an open end). The cylinder must have an opening to allow for a visual inspection inside. TSA Security Screeners will NOT remove the seal/regulator valve from the cylinder at the checkpoint. If the cylinder is sealed (i.e. the regulator valve is still attached), the cylinder is prohibited and not permitted through the security checkpoint, regardless of the reading on the pressure gauge indicator. TSA Security Screeners must visibly ensure that the cylinder is completely empty and that there are no prohibited items inside.
Markers (aka Paintball Guns) are prohibited from carry-on luggage. These items should be packed in checked luggage. These are not considered a firearm and may be transported in unlocked, soft or hard sided luggage.

If you plan to fly with your cylinder you must do the following:


Have a properly trained and qualified person remove the regulator/valve from your cylinder.
Go to http://www.tsa.gov/public/interapp/editorial/editorial_1745.xml and print four copies of the page.
Using a rubber band place one copy around your cylinder.
Place your cylinder without the regulator/valve in your checked baggage.
Give one copy of the page to the person where you check in at the airport.
Keep the other two copies for the flight home.
Please note that this is a brand new change for TSA and the airlines. There may still be some risk that your cylinder will be confiscated, so make every effort to inform the screeners and airline personnel. If it looks like they will not allow your cylinder to be transported, you should ship it to your hotel. Please forward this to as many paintball players as possible and feel free to copy and paste it in it's entirety on paintball newsgroups and forums.

[Kevmaster]

Thanks JJ....this applies across all airline companies, I assume?

[Creative Mayhem]

NICE!

Thanks JJ!

[Athius]

Well my team-mates checked that thing about the hpa tanks. The TSA managers and employees said that it was ok to check them in if they are empty thats all.

[LudavicoSoldier]

Well, lets assume that most if not all individuals who fly with gear are knowledgeable enough to be able to remove/replace the reg/pin valve on their tanks. Some would consider this very unsafe. Stock up on your strap wrenches!

[thejesus]

Hmm this makes me wonder if I should keep my max-flo... damn you smart parts...

BTW thanks JJ, this is better than a bunch of people who really don't know for sure debating about it on another thread.

[JJBrookshire]

Don't go by what may have been said yesterday. What I posted IS the rule. I know because I was in consultation with the director of the department at TSA that will enforce it over the past few weeks. He has forwarded the change to every supervisor at every airport in the US. If you try to check your air system with the reg in place, you will get to your destination minus your air system.

[Blazingace]

TSA is crap. I worked at Newark Intl' airport for 3 years. TSA is a crappy government money pit to make people feel secure. This HPA thing is BS. What the hell are the x-rays for? I have two AGD Flatline tanks and I will not take the regs off everytime I fly with them. TSA must be bored to be screwing with scuba divers and PB players now. BS :mad:

[shartley]

I am glad I drive everywhere now. :cool:

But thanks for the info. I already helped spread the word.

[BobTheCow]

TSA is crap. I worked at Newark Intl' airport for 3 years. TSA is a crappy government money pit to make people feel secure. This HPA thing is BS. What the hell are the x-rays for? I have two AGD Flatline tanks and I will not take the regs off everytime I fly with them. TSA must be bored to be screwing with scuba divers and PB players now. BS :mad:What are you talking about? Chill. As "crap" as it may be, TSA's in charge of everything now, so what they say goes. I don't really see a problem with this rule, at least now there IS a rule that everybody can know about.

[manike]

Nice...finally some concrete info. Now it's just up to airline/TSA employees to know this info :)

Now that brings up a potential problem with people constantly detaching and reattaching the regulators from their tanks. With the recent rash of co2 tank related injuries, how can we avoid this in this situation?

Will players arriving late at night before their tournament starts have enough time to safely reattach and re-loctite their regs to their tanks before the start of play?

Of course, you guys with regs that easily detach from the tanks are way ahead. I miss my Max Attack already :).

Quoted Chris before deleting my duplicate thread.

Chris, we are working on a way to make sure all tank valve systems are safe even without loctite. It's been a development that has been done and tested during this year. It is going into production now.

I think in general that fewer people fly with co2 tanks so it wouldn't be a huge issue. If they do then the cost to upgrade your valve won't be very high.

There is less of a need to loctite regs onto Nitrogen tanks, I've never had mine loctited on. By the time you are able to unscrew the reg there is normally very little energy in the tank and it will bleed out around the threads before you can get the reg off. But with that said our safety developments will be implemented on all of the threaded parts going into tanks.

[hardr0ck68]

why dont we just use left hand threads?
i just dont get why the bottle/ reg AND the system/ ASA are threaded in the same direction....pick left threading for one or the other and everything will be MUCH safer.

Also there should NOT be locktight on any bottle threads, it will eventually screw up the threads the reg should jut be tightened to about 10 foot pounds or so (according to the hydro guy at my local dive shop)

[JJBrookshire]

At one time I advocated left hand threads but have been convinced that it is not a good idea for a couple of reasons:

#1 people may then over "screw in" and thus remove the cylinder.
#2 people not realizing the situation may damage the threads trying to "remove" the reg.


As for accidental removal of a high pressure screw-in reg, I'm not convinced that it is a serious issue. A system under pressure of more than 1200 psi will be very hard to unscrew due to the force being applied by the gas pressure inside. A system that has less than 1200 psi in compressed air or Nitrogen will dump so quickly once the threads begin to unscrew that it should not retain thrust.

[JJBrookshire]

If you visit http://www.carltech.com/new-composite/valves.html you will see that at least one of the manufacturers of the composite cylinders used in paintball supports NO Loctite.

[Hasty8]

TSA is crap. I worked at Newark Intl' airport for 3 years. TSA is a crappy government money pit to make people feel secure. This HPA thing is BS. What the hell are the x-rays for? I have two AGD Flatline tanks and I will not take the regs off everytime I fly with them. TSA must be bored to be screwing with scuba divers and PB players now. BS :mad:

Hrrmmm...maybe the X-ray is to make sure there's no bomb, cash, drugs or other prohibited items in it?

As for making sure the tank is decompressed, considering the fact that at cruising altitude (35,000 feet) the air pressure outside the plane is .3 atmosphere and the plane is only pressurized to around .85 atmospheres, I would say it's a good think to depressureize and potentially explosive air canisters.

Just keep in mind that air travel is not a "right" so if you get booted off a plane for not following the rules no one is to blame but yourself.

I'm curious though. What did you do at NWK?

[Kaiser Bob]

Hrrmmm...maybe the X-ray is to make sure there's no bomb, cash, drugs or other prohibited items in it?

As for making sure the tank is decompressed, considering the fact that at cruising altitude (35,000 feet) the air pressure outside the plane is .3 atmosphere and the plane is only pressurized to around .85 atmospheres, I would say it's a good think to depressureize and potentially explosive air canisters.

Just keep in mind that air travel is not a "right" so if you get booted off a plane for not following the rules no one is to blame but yourself.

I'm curious though. What did you do at NWK?

EWR last i checked :P, as far as pressure differences go, 1 atm to 0 atm would only create a difference in pressure of 14psi no? How would even that make our tanks go boom?

[Big'n slo]

Off Topic but


JJBrookshire we're neighbors :)

[manike]

EWR last i checked :P, as far as pressure differences go, 1 atm to 0 atm would only create a difference in pressure of 14psi no? How would even that make our tanks go boom?

It wouldn't as I once tried to explain to an airport handler... :cuss:

There is NO risk WHATSOEVER of an increase in relative pressure at altitude making the tank rupture. None. Nadda. Zip. Nought.... etc.

[SlartyBartFast]

It wouldn't as I once tried to explain to an airport handler... :cuss:

There is NO risk WHATSOEVER of an increase in relative pressure at altitude making the tank rupture. None. Nadda. Zip. Nought.... etc.

Well, the way I see it is:

- They want your tank at ZERO psi not because they're worried about a good tank rupturing after a 14psig increase, but because they're worried about a BAD tank rupturing at 5,000psi. They don't want to trust your guages, they don't want to have to train handlers to inspect specialy equipment. Removing arupture disc would accomplish that. But, then you'd be asking them to trust your tank design and you that the rupture disk actually vents the tank.

- Since the security scare, they want to be able to SEE inside your tank to know nothing is hidden inside. The only way to do that is to remove the regulator. Xray machines are incapable of seeing inside metal objects. Thin wall aluminum tanks MAY be able to pass through Xrays and show as empty, but then your asking for exemptions and special circumstances for different items. With so many things to check, they want to use ONE foolproof method.

- Even if the Xray machine showed it was empty, whats to say the tank isn't filled with something explosive with a dummy vent valve on the regulator and the regulator contains some detonator?


But, then again, travelling with one of my managers whos ex-military (British special forces, he busted IRA heads in Northern Ireland amongst other assignment) he noted that not once did security open an Altoids mint box he was carrying. He assured (not sure that's the word) that he could do much more than enough damage with what he could fit in that box if he wanted.

If you think about it, an empty tank with the regulator removed could still camouflage a lot of nasty devices and substances.

I suppose it might come to us all travelling in airline issue slippers and robes and all the luggage on a separate flight.

[manike]

Well, the way I see it is:

- They want your tank at ZERO psi not because they're worried about a good tank rupturing after a 14psig increase, but because they're worried about a BAD tank rupturing at 5,000psi. They don't want to trust your guages, they don't want to have to train handlers to inspect specialy equipment. Removing arupture disc would accomplish that. But, then you'd be asking them to trust your tank design and you that the rupture disk actually vents the tank.

My tank was empty. Always are when I fly.

He wanted to tell me that the change in pressure would take the tank from zero to over it's burst limit. I tried not to laugh at him. :shooting: and took some time to show him the 4500psi rating, the fact these tranks have a factor of safety of 3.4 minimum (carbon wrapped tank) and that the change in pressure at height would be so little it wouldn't even show on the gauge ( I worked it out at abour 24psi off the top of my head but I think I overestimated...). He wasn't convinced. At that point I decided he was a moron and just unscrewed the reg anyway because none of mine are loctited in. Ever since then I always take the regs out of the cylinders.

Even VERY bad fibre wrapped tanks require large pressures to rupture, and even then they leak rather than explode.

[SlartyBartFast]

He wanted to tell me that the change in pressure would take the tank from zero to over it's burst limit. I tried not to laugh at him.

Give the guys some slack. MOST of the general population has no idea about pressure vessels and ratings.

To read vessel ratings and determine whether pressures are correct or not requires specialty knowledge. Granted a LITTLE bit of knowledge would have stopped the fool in question proving himself and idiot, but it is not the place of screeners to make judgment calls.

It is exactly for that reason that the rules are now so specific and they should have been from the beginning.

[manike]

Give the guys some slack. MOST of the general population has no idea about pressure vessels and ratings.

To read vessel ratings and determine whether pressures are correct or not requires specialty knowledge. Granted a LITTLE bit of knowledge would have stopped the fool in question proving himself and idiot, but it is not the place of screeners to make judgment calls.

It is exactly for that reason that the rules are now so specific and they should have been from the beginning.

Some slack? It was his job to know. When he doesn't know what he is talking about but trying to stop people doing something they are allowed to do? After a BA manager found out about the situation they bumped me to first class for my 'inconvenience'.

If he doesn't know he should ask, or not pretend to know. With what he was doing it was his JOB to know.

I didn't give him any aggro (I'm not stupid and still wanted to fly), I explained to him the real situation. I find educating people that don't know about paintball tanks and systems much better idea than leaving them in their ignorance to affect others. That's one reason we have worked hard on this new information and release and getting the TSA to do something about a situation that was rapidly getting worse.

He wasn't going to let me fly and wanted to take hundreds of dollars of equipment from me. That doesn't earn any 'slack' in my world. Let's see how much slack you would cut an idiot next time he tries to take hundreds of dollars of your stuff. :rolleyes: :D

[RobAGD]

The big worry aboutthe tanks is that you could pack a lot of explosive materials in there and with a reg / det on top to seal up the tank the over pressure that could creat would be massive.

The guys at teh TSA and security desk are so un educated that can barly read the NON TOXIC marking on teh side of a case of paint, Let alone understand the basic of gas laws.

So for the last 12 years while flying I dont tell them anything. I check what I could check, Keep my tanks empty, and over the last 3 years remove the regs from my flatlines. I have had many encounters with TSA guys that didnt want to allow my tanks on the plane because they are pressure vessels. I then have to try and explain that my 64oz 7-11 cup is more of a pressure vessel than the tanks are as I can seal it and blow air into it and get a + pressure reading. It took 20 minutes and 2 more levels of idiots to get checked through.

To be honest I dont feel any safer flying as I know there are more ways to get things done than they are checking for. TSA is a feel good thing and it does help a little with the passenger idiot factor.

Oh well, I have some chimps driving to orlando they will have my tanks with them.

-Robert the Naughty

[JJBrookshire]

The following link has some good information regarding removal of regulators from experts in the field. Note that they do NOT recommend the use of Loctite.

http://www.carltech.com/new-composite/valves.html

[SlartyBartFast]

The following link has some good information regarding removal of regulators from experts in the field. Note that they do NOT recommend the use of Loctite.

http://www.carltech.com/new-composite/valves.html

That website also clearly states that flash filling is dangerous and should never be done.

Paintballers continue to flash fill and ignore the hazzard under the belief "It won't happen to me."

[CaliMagFan]

2 questions for the gallery...

1. How will paintball retailers deal with not being able to send tanks via air travel.... arent most shipped their first time on an aircraft? (i order things online from places on the east coast and midwest, and i do believe that those items i order are shipped on planes at one time or another... or is it that it only applies to private passengers on commercial airlines?.

2. what is "flash filling?" at my field they fill station guys attack the marker to the hose for HPA... press down on the booster button and you can hear the tank being filled... it takes about 20 sec, and they usually only fill to about 3500 out of 4500 cause they know you can come back frequently on an all-day pass..

thanks
-kyro

[Chris42050]

CaliMagFan- I think (correct me if I'm wrong people) there are different rules for shipping items. I think they are less strict because hijackers and such aren't really worried about bringing down a plane full of boxes rather than people.

And your local field is flash filling the tanks if it only takes 20 seconds. My field always does it and i have yet to see a problem. Every warning on the web (that I have seen) states that it shouldn't be done if your tank gets to hot to hold. I fill my tank in about 10-15 seconds and it never gets too hot too hold.