Is there an advantage to cheating at paintball?

[Tyger]

Yes, this is still a "Tyger is injured and has WAY too much freaking time on his hands" post. :mad: It sucks, but back surgery does that to you, ya know. And since I can't play yet, I'm spending time thinking about the rules, and such.

So, on to the arguing.

The poll I asked last week (http://www.automags.org/forums/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=2148) I found interesting. Over 50% of the people who voted said they would rather a cheater admit they were cheating. Granted, I forgot to add the "punish cheaters yourself" option, but I still found that interesting over the "Whine complain and moan" option and the "Ignore it and it might go away" option.

This leads me to another question, however. Is there a distinct advantage to cheating? I'm not talking ethics here, I'm talking RAW advantage. When you look at it from a STRICT risk/reward perspective, are there more "rewards" than "risks" when it comes to cheating in paintball? (Is a 1-for-1 really going to offset a player wiping a hit and taking out 3 opponents, for example?)

I'm not asking who cheats, or what the cheats are, I'm asking if the punishments for cheating offset the reward gained from breaking the rules. And don't give me the "Well the refs need to be better" excuse either, becasue we all know that "all refs suck", except when you win a tournament in which case the reffing was awesome. This isn't about enforcement, it's about the risks and rewards of breaking the rules in general.

Sorry to over explain it, but I would rather this be a discussion on topic than a cryfest of who "Cheated on my team". I just want opinions from people on this.

-Tyger

[tony3]

wiping is a 3 for 1, playing on is a 1 for 1. In xball I believe it a major 5 minute penalty for wiping. People make such a big deal about wiping, when it really isn't a big deal. If leagues really thought it was a such a big problem they could make the consquences so bad no one would ever cheat, but they don't see it as a huge problem, so they don't. They could make the penalty for wiping automatic loss of the game or even DQ from the tourney.

[justjoshin590]

well i have an idea, when you cheat you learn nothing from your mistake,
say you get hit and wipe, getting hit would most likely mean you have a weakness, now if you just wipe that hit, and even if you make a mental note to be more carefull in some way, odds are youll still have the same problem later

so in cheating, you learn nothing, and dont advance as a player

[tony3]

Tell that to a pro player and he will just laugh at you.

[punkncat]

Aside from the morality issues and whatnot...

Yes I definately think there is an advantage in cheating well. If you are getting caught then you aren't doing it well. If you pull it off w/o getting caught , its definately an advantage to play on after you should be eliminated.

[XSSPL]

well i have an idea, when you cheat you learn nothing from your mistake,
say you get hit and wipe, getting hit would most likely mean you have a weakness, now if you just wipe that hit, and even if you make a mental note to be more carefull in some way, odds are youll still have the same problem later

so in cheating, you learn nothing, and dont advance as a player

well put. I agree with that totally. You were hit because you let your game slip... rather than wiping, be a man, call yrself out and learn from it.

As to the question at hand - the "risk vs reward" factor... yeah sure, if you get away with it and are able to eliminate some opponents - there's the reward, but you will always walk away know that you didn't deserve the results.

If you are caught, then you also deserve all the consequences that come along with it - such as a big *** mental target painted all over you in the minds of the opposing team and the refs.

[justjoshin590]

ehhe, well i know in a touney their a bit more interested in winning then growing as a player, after all for most thats what training is for

but still what i said stands, some people might just be more interested in winning then learning

i dont think people that can just wipe and not care about it are very good people at all...
if that means i am calling a lot of pro players bad people, then yes they are

and i think if we want paintball to advance as a sport, cause lets face it, a couple of tv spots on channels only some people watch isnt as good as it gets, then cheating needs to be a heavily punished offense, as in automatic loss

[HoppysMag]

id say if you cheat and are caught, you lose. that simple. but thats why i dont play cheater ball... errr uh tourney

[Won Hunglo]

Cheating is great for paintball fields! When someone wipes they stay in the game longer & use/buy more paint.

"It you ain't cheating you ain't trying." :hail:

[justjoshin590]

Cheating is great for paintball fields! When someone wipes they stay in the game longer & use/buy more paint.

"It you ain't cheating you ain't trying." :hail:

as for that i think that fields should have to charge much closer to what they buy it for, as in maybe a 5$ profit per case, theyed be less inclined to let people cheat, if that means higher admisions, who cares, i pay more for paint then i ever have for field entree...

[HoppysMag]

as for that i think that fields should have to charge much closer to what they buy it for, as in maybe a 5$ profit per case, theyed be less inclined to let people cheat, if that means higher admisions, who cares, i pay more for paint then i ever have for field entree...
because not everyone plays like that. why should i have tp pay a higher field fee so you can get a discount on paint? it doesnt help me because i dont shoot 2 cases in a day

[justjoshin590]

well neither do i, im just saying it might be easier to put caps on paint prices, cause fields sometimes charge double (not sure excately) if not more for paint, so i think if they didnt make as much money off of it, they might be less inclined to allow cheating, and how much do you think prices would really go up? i pay 10$ for admision and 60$ per case for good paint

[MonsterMag]

if you cheat you loose , people should play fair and not cheat :cheers:

[Tyger]

...i think if they didnt make as much money off of it, they might be less inclined to allow cheating

That's an interesting theory, that fields encourage cheating to increase profits? Sort of the same thing at tournaments and big games too, that wipers / cheaters buy more paint? So it's a bennefit to the field owner to encourage cheating behavior, or at the very least not crack down on it?

I never quite thought of it that way before....

-Tyger

[RONIN01]

Cheating has been around since humans competed in sport for the very first time. There are records at the ancient Greek site of Olympia that discuss the penalties for cheating. Even the loss of limb or even life in ancient times wasn't enough to stop cheating, so harsher penalties imposed in the modern era certainly won't stop cheating either.

All modern sports, professional and otherwise, have cheating. If they have been around for awhile, cheating is a part of the game. I can remember my basketball coach telling me in high school to defend post up players by putting a forearm in their back and when they turned to shoot, push them slightly. This was a difficult foul for the refs to detect, and it effectively threw the shot off target. This philosophy is accepted by coaches across the board. See what the referees are calling, get away with what you can.

Paintball is headed in the same direction. For better or for worse, cheating is becoming an intergral part of the game. In an environment where almost every team is cheating to some degree, imposing very harsh penalties will only take the final results out of the hands of the players and give them to the referees. The best thing for paintball is to accept the fact that cheating will ALWAYS be around, and set up rules and train referees so that the impact of cheating does not determine the final outcome of the game. :ninja:

[Ken]

I'm talking from the perspective of someone who has a good time winning
You know what I'm tired of? Complaining. I like winning, I understand why people use ramping boards but not so much wiping. How would you feel spending the entrance, travel and paint fees to then lose $350 dollars for the tourny admission because someone was able to run through your lane? If they do it, they do it and everybody else does it. ACCEPT IT. Chances are the people complaining about how this ''ruins the sport'' don't even play in these divisions anyway, pisses me off. You people go on bashing these players like they killed a loved one. Get over it , quit your *****ing, and drop your elitest attitudes.

-Ken

[Ken]

I'd like to make a seperate post to say to tyger that I love your website, appreciate the work you do to help out younger and more inexperienced players.




-Ken

[Night$tryker]

you have to be a real piece of crap to cheat by wiping. what fun is the game if you just wip every time you get hit. i saw a kid at my big game wiping so i went right up to him and told him to go out and he didn't so i made him leave the field. i am a ref. i know you hate it when you see someone wip as do i. jeese it just makes me so f*****g mad to see that :mad: I want to just run up, rip the persons mask off and rattle his tiny brain with my fist :cuss:

I also know that my field owner where i work dosesn't encourage cheating he would also probably kick them off

[Kevmaster]

if there wasn't an advantage, teams wouldn't do it.

they arn't stupid. they are taking a calculated risk and hoping that it pays off. If it never paid off, or it wasn't worth it...they woulnd't do it. in their oppinion, the juice IS worth the squeeze

[CoolHand]

as for that i think that fields should have to charge much closer to what they buy it for, as in maybe a 5$ profit per case...

Yup, and you'd have no fields left to play at.

Those fields gotta pay the overhead, and still make some money. How do you do it? Either charge a good markup on the paint, or an outrageous entry fee (something akin to $50 a head at least).

I mean, no offense, but they're not there simply so that you have a place to play. If there is no money in it, what's the point? I know of a lot of things that you can do, and loose money, that are a hell of a lot more fun that running a PB field.

[Enemy]

i just am wondering how you can complain about paying 60$ for good paint when for a field a good case not order bye 30 or more cases still cost 45-55$. now on to cheating ill admit it i do and have cheated.. in tourneys the advantage is that most times it takes a while to score a hit on a good player now take that hit and make it disappear and you make it that much more difficult cuz you have to hit him again and often times again. thats an advantage its like in wrestling the way you score is to catch the opponent in a mistake easy to do on some one thats new but get someone that is experienced and the match is decided bye who makes the first and only mistake!! now if you can erase that mistake then it betters your odds that he will make another one before you do. that means you win. its the same in tournament paintball.

[Xyxyll]

There's no strict punishment in today's world for cheating. The rewards greatly outweigh the risks involved, as most punishments if caught seem to be the "don't do it again" type of punishment. Unfortunately enforcing these rules is becoming harder and harder because more fields are jumping on the bandwagon of the weak punishment policy. A lot of field owners see cheating as more playing and more paintballs being shot.

[stondroopy]

geez this game doesnt sound very fun :confused:

[Meph]

Tell that to a pro player and he will just laugh at you.

And I laugh at the term "pro" player so big whoop.


Now as far as the topic on hand. In todays game the rewards definately overshadows all risk. Because there is almost no risk. There might be the penalty but a good team has some ability to overcome that, though not all. And either way there's still next game. There are really no ejections, no banishment, and above all there are no financial worries!

That's definately what I feel there needs to be, financial penalties. Back in the Olympic days people might've cheated under penalty of death but threaten to take away their riches and their lands would've been a whole other story! People sooner die than lose moneys, at least at the moment. Put the gun to their head and yeah they'll take life and hand over the wallet. But without the actual shock hitting them people will sooner hold onto that bag o gold with both arms tight up against their heart where it belongs.

And yeah that is another reason I think too what was previously mentioned. Promoters aren't cracking down on it. They don't want to royally piss off the players to where they leave to a different league all together, plus players who are in longer shoot more paint. And in counter to that people overshoot to prevent the wiping using even more paint in the process. So these guys are really turning a half-cocked blind eye to the situation not really taking it seriously. So long as they bring in their bank they're good.

[madmolly]

Meph I like what you said. My instance was we were at a Rookie tournament 2 weeks ago. Our team meets all the requirements of Rook. We played against teams that boast wins in Novice on their websites and about how they have been together for years and all they did was change the name. They even wore the same uniforms that stick out worse. Now that was not a big deal. I figure we beat them before even though they sandbag we can do it again. What the big deal was the refs came up to our team and complained to us about the other teams playing on. They could not believe had bad the other teams were cheating. These were refs talking to us. I don't care about bouncing markers or sandbagging half as much as I get pissed when someone keeps shooting with a goggle hit and the refs don't do a dang thing. If the refs don't start cracking down at the rookie/novice level the sport is really just going to get worse.

[justjoshin590]

i just am wondering how you can complain about paying 60$ for good paint when for a field a good case not order bye 30 or more cases still cost 45-55$..

but the thing is they dont, most places buy it by the pallete, thats somewhere around 60 cases? anyway, the paint prices was just an idea, in general bigger consequences need to be put in place


And I laugh at the term "pro" player so big whoop.
Now as far as the topic on hand. In todays game the rewards definately overshadows all risk. Because there is almost no risk. There might be the penalty but a good team has some ability to overcome that, though not all. And either way there's still next game. There are really no ejections, no banishment, and above all there are no financial worries!

That's definately what I feel there needs to be, financial penalties. Back in the Olympic days people might've cheated under penalty of death but threaten to take away their riches and their lands would've been a whole other story! People sooner die than lose moneys, at least at the moment. Put the gun to their head and yeah they'll take life and hand over the wallet. But without the actual shock hitting them people will sooner hold onto that bag o gold with both arms tight up against their heart where it belongs.

i couldnt agree more, theaten death and theyll still do it, but take away there money and it stops them, i think that weather or not we can all agree on a way to stop cheating in paintball, can we all agree that more measures need to be taken in order to prevent and stop cheating all together?

[HoppysMag]

I know of a lot of things that you can do, and loose money, that are a hell of a lot more fun that running a PB field.


:D

[HoppysMag]

but the thing is they dont, most places buy it by the pallete, thats somewhere around 60 cases? anyway, the paint prices was just an idea, in general bigger consequences need to be put in place






even buy the pallet, for decent paint it can still be 40-50. paints not cheap. and fields dont make much money on it

[LudavicoSoldier]

I propose a "SHOOT 'EM IN THE FACE!" solution, wherein you would shoot them in the face. Gogg hits sure are hard to wipe!

[Lee]

look at the amount of 3 for 1's in a large scale event. it's minimal. but, the cheating is there.
that in itself tells me that thier is a definate advantage.

[Torbo]

in most cases it is worth it. Say for example youre very down on numbers, say 1 on 3. You get hit and wipe it. Thats a 3 for 1 if you get caught. If you suceed, then theres a second life in a desperate situation. If you get caught, you lose the game, which would happen if you didnt wipe it. If a person is good at cheating (flame me if you want, but its true) then it would be worth it to cheat.

The nppl has made gun cheats not usefull. To disqualify a team for a bouncing gun is brutal. I think teams are going to think hard about their guns now. That might be an over kill tho. I would say some bounce should result in a 0 for that game, and blatent ramping would be disqualification.

[flyinasian016]

Yes theres an advantage to cheating during tournaments:
Ramping/Bounce - Solid string of ~17bps, you're not going to run through 1-2 strings of it without getting hit. Meaning you shoot more people off break.
Wiping - Stay in the game longer, put more pressure on the other team, get more kills.

But during rec play, thers no excuse for cheating
Ramping/Bouncing boards - During rec play its most of the people's first or second time out, they dont want to get nailed 10-15 times by some ******* whos gun bounces. It makes the sport looked down upon.
Wiping - encourages the new guys to do it to because they see the more experienced poeple doing it so it must be ok. It kills the point of rec play.

I personally feel, that during a large tournament, its almost ok to cheat. you have a lot on the line. Winning, gaining more sponsors, getting recognized, getting prizes(good prizes at that). But during rec play, theres absolutely NO reason to cheat.

[LudavicoSoldier]

I personally feel, that during a large tournament, its almost ok to cheat. you have a lot on the line. Winning, gaining more sponsors, getting recognized, getting prizes(good prizes at that). But during rec play, theres absolutely NO reason to cheat.

The big question here is, do cheaters deserve to get recognized as winners, or win prizes? Rewarding rule breaking is cool right? I mean it must be; everyone else is doing it, so its ok, right?

Why cant people just play by the FREAKING RULES!? Is it really that hard? If you have to break the rules to win, you dont deserve to walk away with anything but a disqualification. :mad:

[AGD]

Of COURSE cheating has benefits! If your going up against (name any team better than you) and you know the odds of loosing are great, you take almost no chance when deciding to cheat in the game. If your going against a weaker team but they have you on the ropes, its well worth the risk to cheat any way you can since you are likely to loose anyway. If the team your fighting is evenly matched the only way to get a leg up is to cheat since its only 50/50 your going to win anyway.

The mentality is that cheating wins period. If that idea wasn’t so pervasive you would never have gotten a player to go hide in the woods and shoot at another team during a major tourney. Sure there is cheating in other sports but I doubt it has the public sex appeal that it does in this sport. Cheaters are winners in paintball plain and simple, losers suck period.

Everyone has to stop thinking of paintball as a "sport" since that would mean it was a test of skill. Paintball is a lifestyle in which you have the illusion of competition. Everyone uses the same gun and the same strategy in tournaments because they want to be like everyone else. If it was really about competing, you would see different stuff from different teams trying to figure out the best way to win. To be different in tourney ball is to be embarrassed, that’s not competition, that’s a club.

AGD

[Duck Hunt]

This is a nail, *shows you a nail*

This is a hammer * shows you a hammer*

This is Tom hitting the nail RIGHT ON THE NOSE.

Thank you Tom....


GImmie my hammer back.

Sean

[rpm07]

I am getting sick of all this crap about cheating. In any sport you are going to get it.

Watch a NFL game they hold, you have Pass Interference and all other penalties.
Body Building they take anything they can to make them selfs bigger
Nascar they confinscate parts all the time.
Baseball you have pine tar, spit balls and so on
Soccer guys are getting tripped all the time
I can go on and on
If you break a rule to help you out in a game you are cheating. So it is going to happen and there is nothing anyone can do about it. So for the people that keep complaining about it dont play.

[Fallout-]

I think the fields benifit from cheating. If they dident you would be DQ from every turny for wipping. Peopel wont come back if you do that. cheating is something you have to deal with.
BTW get better and make some more movies :D

[Kevmaster]

The big question here is, do cheaters deserve to get recognized as winners, or win prizes? Rewarding rule breaking is cool right? I mean it must be; everyone else is doing it, so its ok, right?

Why cant people just play by the FREAKING RULES!? Is it really that hard? If you have to break the rules to win, you dont deserve to walk away with anything but a disqualification. :mad:

of course you reward the cheaters with a first place, if they finish first!!

if they A) get away with it or B) win in spite of getting caught, they most certainly deserve to get the win over a team that didn't cheat. thats just how it works.

heres the process for teaching rookies how to play football:
1) teach them the rules
2) teach them how to break them without getting caught
3) teach them the game


its how it works! Cheating is NOT to be frowned upon as something unholy and sinful.
I must say however, cheating is NOT to be confused with poor sportsmanship/abuse/attitude.

[CoolHand]

. . . . .Nascar they confinscate parts all the time. . . . .

Yeah, but really, there are many differing degrees of cheating. I have about a decade of experience in stock cars, so I can better relate the differing severities to paintball (or at least I'm gonna try).

You said they confiscate parts all the time. True, but along with that, depending on what it was, the team will loose season long points, and the guy in charge (usually the crew chief) will be fined a **** ton of money (on the order of $10k - $50k). I would relate this to gun cheats in PB. You get caught, your marker sets the game out, etc., etc.

Now, if you intentionally crash a guy, and the officials are reasonably sure of it, then you are in the sling big time. At the very least, they'll park you for a couple of laps. If you go back out and lay the bumper to another guy on purpose, they'll park you for the rest of the race, and likely pull your score card (effectively disqualifing you), meaning you accrue no points, and take home no prize money. I'd relate this kind of cheating to wiping. The afore mentioned infraction on the race track garners a BIG penalty, but PB does not have an equivalent. I'd say therin lies our problem.

If you just got fined for murdering someone, then there'd be a lot more people who'd do it. I, for one, have a list that is waiting for just such an occassion (That's a joke, all you serious people put your flame throwers down :nono: ). The trouble is, that most folks now a days don't not kill people because its wrong, they don't kill people because the cops will put them in jail. Its not a question of morality for them, its a fear of reprecussions.

Now, on a less henious level, people who cheat at PB are applying the same logic, but in this case, the fear is so much less that the decide that its OK to go ahead and cheat.

There needs to be a downside. Until there is, you won't ever see a decline in this kind of behavior.

And Tom, I've heard the same argument applied to auto racing, but I defy anyone who's never been in the cockpit of a race car to jump right in and turn a fast lap.

The fact of the matter is that PB, when played properly (that is, to win by superior tactics and marksmanship), is just as much of a sport as soccer or football or whatever. However, what we have now is not a sport. I'm not sure what you'd call it really.

[justjoshin590]

and for the second time tom has said something to make me lose hope in paintball all together, i just dont know tom, is that really your outlook on paintball altogether? not a game, just a lifestyle with the allusion of being a sport? if so i dont know how you can stand to even be part of it
-josh

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

cheating is now part of the game. deal with it.
evolve or die

[CoolHand]

cheating is now part of the game. deal with it.
evolve or die

OR

Go play some place that it isn't.

The last place I reffed at, we used to eject people who cheated. Literally. It said right on the waiver that if we caught you cheating, or playing in an unsportsmanlike way, we could eject you from the field, and not refund your field fee.

I (personally) only ever tossed one guy. I refunded his field fee out of pocket, and told him to take a hike. The ***clown bunkered a 10 yr old kid not 5 mins after the safety talk, where I expressly told the older guys not to go heels on the kids. It took every bit of restraint I had not to beat him down with his own marker.

To tell you the truth, we didn't used to have that much of a problem with cheating. Wiping wasn't even thought of, and the gun cheats hadn't been thought up yet (or hadn't trickled down yet).

The only people we ever had trouble with were the random "Pros" (I use that term loosely :rolleyes: ) that would show up on ocassion. One of my buds told a "Pro" to go home for overshooting and playing on. The guy got all puffy and started blowing about how he'd been on the cover of APG. :rofl: I'd never heard of him before, but his self appointed "Pro" status didn't keep him from going home early. :tard: :cool:

[Target Practice]

I think one advantage that has been overlooked is the psycological advantage gained by a cheating player/team.

When a player or a team cheats, and the opposition knows it, chances are the opposition is going to frustrated. This effect will be magnified if the cheating goes unpunished. With this frustration comes uncoordination, distraction, and decreased performance.

That's how I see it, anyway.

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

I (personally) only ever tossed one guy. I refunded his field fee out of pocket, and told him to take a hike. The assclown bunkered a 10 yr old kid not 5 mins after the safety talk, where I expressly told the older guys not to go heels on the kids. It took every bit of restraint I had not to beat him down with his own marker.

I was thinking in a different mindset. I was referring to tournaments not regular open play. But a guy bunkering a 10year old kid is just absolutely wrong...with few exceptions

[Tyger]

cheating is now part of the game. deal with it.
evolve or die

I'll keep that in mind when you're on the opposing team.

-Tyger

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

:D ur out for a few months so i don't have to worry for a while

[White_Noise]

suicidal, i catch you cheating, youre catching a full halo's worth of overshooting :shooting: :shooting:

[madmolly]

This is a nail, *shows you a nail*

This is a hammer * shows you a hammer*

This is Tom hitting the nail RIGHT ON THE NOSE.

Thank you Tom....


GImmie my hammer back.

Sean


You know Tom could come on here and tell everyone paintball is bad and give it up and you would still have someone trying to smack his buttom with his lips.
While I agree with Tom that cheating is there and winners cheat I don't think we can't change it. Our team plays straight and we win our share not all. If anyone on our team gets caught playing on witha hit. C-ya find a new team. We encourage fair play at our tourneys.

[hitech]

cheating is now part of the game. deal with it.
evolve or die

It's very sad to see people equate cheating in paintball (wiping, intentionally playing on, intentionally shooting hot...) with a foul in basketball or holding in football. That mentality is a large part of the problem.

BTW, we have gone backwards, not evolved. <img src=http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/bc/4161d9d6_207d/bc/Hosting/smiley_mini102.gif?CCCglmBB7Iu5tWX9>

[LudavicoSoldier]

:cuss: to people who love winning more than playing fair, honest ball. F winning, I just want to have a good time when I play!

[flyinasian016]

Whats funny is the fact that a few weeks ago if someone else had posted this, hed get flamed and a lot of people would tell him differently then what they have said here. Because i tried to say this in a couple threads and a couple of you guys flamed the shiz out of me for saying that cheating is part of the game. Amazing how things change...

Anyways, who doesnt ramp, who doesnt wipe hits off break, who doesnt bounce, who doesnt play on? Just about every successful team cheats in one way or another. My gun bounces, i wipe hits if i get shot off break, and i will play on if i know the other guys is too. If you cant beat em, join em' then beat em

[Altimas]

Winning from the result of cheating is still winning and if it didnt still feel good, no one would cheat to win, but guess what.... It does still feel good.

[Tyger]

While I agree with Tom that cheating is there and winners cheat I don't think we can't change it.

Why can't we?

Seriously, why can't WE change the status quo? Why can't WE take the power back? Why can't we change the attitudes? What makes us as players and consumers helpless to change the attitudes of the other players? What's stopping us?

-Tyger

[VFX_Fenix]

Why can't we?

Seriously, why can't WE change the status quo? Why can't WE take the power back? Why can't we change the attitudes? What makes us as players and consumers helpless to change the attitudes of the other players? What's stopping us?

-Tyger

What's stopping some people is the fear of ridecule (sp?) and being different. It's hard being the odd man out and be different when seemingly the entirety of the rest of the tourney aspect of the game says "you cheat you win and the consequences if you fail are minimal". Honestly though, stiffer pentalties for cheating won't necesarily stop it from happening, a team being DQ'd from a tourney because they were caught cheating once in an event won't stop it all together. There's always the mindset of "I won't get caught" that people opperate under when they break rules. Granted, stiffer penalties would probably decrease the instances of cheating simply because people aren't willing to risk it, but there will always be someone who can do it well enough to not get caught.

As a generation of players it is possible to lay down new rules for cheating (point deductions, forfitures, etc.) and if the teams never encountered other teams that cheated, incidence would most likely be low until someone figures out that it's possible and they can get away with it. I suppose the real issue is that people, as a whole, don't like to lose. One guy mentioned that his team has a zero tollerance policy for cheating, that's great, I'd wager they don't cycle through team-mates all that often. If every team had that sort of policy it would be nice.

However, I'd like to say that the direction of paintball as a big money sort of event is going is a kin to "total war" vs. "honorable conflict". Durring the first conflicts of the Civil War, civilian casualties were practically nonexistant DESPITE some of these battles having civilians watching from the 'sidelines". Durring the martch to the sea, well... we all know what happend there.

Paintball as an idea is honorable, paintball as a sport decidedly falls short.

And yes, there is a definate advantage to cheating, it means that cheaters can stay in the game longer and put just that much more paint in the air.

[flyinasian016]

Why can't we?

Seriously, why can't WE change the status quo? Why can't WE take the power back? Why can't we change the attitudes? What makes us as players and consumers helpless to change the attitudes of the other players? What's stopping us?

-Tyger


Well, whats so bad about cheating? If you could cheat on a exam or in any other sport and not get in trouble, would you?

[Tyger]

Well, whats so bad about cheating? If you could cheat on a exam or in any other sport and not get in trouble, would you?

If I play a puzzle game, say something like a Lara Croft game, and I use a walk-through, did I really beat the game or did I just follow in someone else's footsteps? Do I truly get enjoyment out of playing a puzzle game if I truly solve no puzzles? For some people, yes, but if I'm not exploring and discovering on my own, figuring out the puzzles on my own, I'm personally not enjoying myself. I didn't earn the victory.

If I play a paintball game, and I cheat the whole time, I may win the game but do I really enjoy myself? For some people, the answer is yes because they can celebrate and pretend to be winners even if they should not have otherwise ("the paper says we won, SUCK IT UP!"). But if I can't earn it, why bother? That's a personal call for me. For others, they might enjoy the pleasure of being a "winner". I want to win just as much as they do, but I'd like to know I made it happen by myself, not with "help".

Then again I have pride in my skills. I like to earn my wins, it makes the victory that much sweeter.

-Tyger

[TDonovan]

^ Agreed.

Cheating is for losers, plain and simple.

Don't know what else I can say about it.

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

that would mean 90% of tournament players are losers along with a great majority of scenario players now.

This sport is more about winning now. The more you win the more you impress your sponsors and the more money you get. If you play fair and not win you're not gonna last long in the paintball scene unless you got really deep pockets

[Brophog]

that would mean 90% of tournament players are losers along with a great majority of scenario players now.

This sport is more about winning now. The more you win the more you impress your sponsors and the more money you get. If you play fair and not win you're not gonna last long in the paintball scene unless you got really deep pockets

Unfortunately, you're right. Sadly, the scenario thing is the worst of it. That was really popular, imo, as a safehouse against the things that more mature players did not like amongst the changing tourney scene. But it's getting just as commercialized as the tourney side is.

[Tyger]

that would mean 90% of tournament players are losers along with a great majority of scenario players now.

This sport is more about winning now. The more you win the more you impress your sponsors and the more money you get.

So unless you cheat, you're going to lose? Is that the main idea here?

-Tyger

[Blazestorm]

So far my strategy for winning is shooting the other team.

It seems to work :D

[madmolly]

Read what I wrote again. I agree we can change it we just need to start at the roots.
Rookie Tourney Start teaching the rules enforcing
Novice Start really cracking down
Amatuer Start throwing teams out of games for playing on.
The hell with a 1 for 1 do a 1 for 4

[madmolly]

One of the biggest reasons is the financials of everything. Fields are struggling to make money with the internet raping them at every turn of the page so they are less apt to dq a team since that team will never come back and maybe give them bad press online on forums saying how they got ripped. Bad press spreads like VD on forums like this and PBN,PBR,PBSTAR etc. We are basically killing ourselves. I run a shop and this year I actually was in the red becuase I could not compete with internet pricing. Places were selling stuff cheaper than I could buy it for.

[rabidchihauhau]

Reality:

Tom is right when he points the finger at the 'culture' of paintball.

The 'trend-setters' in the industry long ago bought into the WWF - Bad Boyz - Gangsta Rappa image and are pushing it for all its worth. They have correctly identified the appeal of paintball and the way to bring it to the target demographic (12-24 year old males) and that is - when you play paintball at a visible level, you are aspiring to become the bad man everyone loves to watch cheat.

The rest of the industry is just playing follow-on because that's 'what works' when it comes to selling product.

The origins of this culture go far back in american history and it crosses all lines. We celebrate Billy the Kid, James Gotti, the villian is often the 'lead character' in movies and television shows and we revel in people getting away with bad things. (Tailhook scandal - up front - oh, that's terrible. Subtext - check out what those guys were getting away with!)

So many of you fall into the standard knee-jerk reactions: cheaters are going to get shot/bonus-balled/won't learn anything/pay the price in the long run/no one will play with them.

Here's a clue for you folks: YOU can't do anything effective against them. I'd venture to guess that most of you rarely even see the cheating committed against you when you play (the only time it get's caught is when the cheater is inept).

If they get kicked off your field (rare) they'll go somewhere else and continue doing what they're doing. Chances are, they'll be the ones that end up with sponsorship, pictures in the mags and a rep as a good or great 'baller. You will still be playing fair - and getting taken advantage of by the next cheater who shows up until you figure him out...

Here's another clue; the advantage isn't gained by the cheating player, its gained by his team's sponsors and the sales they gain when their team(s) win big at big events. History posts the headlines, not the detail.

Don't be directing all of this at tournament players either; cheating is just as rampant and pervasive in recball, backyard ball and scenario ball as it is on the tournament field. The only reason you don't see it as much is: recball doesn't matter to the press, backyard ball doesn't get reported and the ratio of refs to players in scenario ball precludes most of it from being caught by an official.

I was the first one to ever report assessed penalties in tournament coverage - back around '88, '89. I didn't publish player names - just a total of penalty points by team. I was roundly chastised by all and sundry for displaying the bad side of things - giving the sport a bad image. Hah.

I thought that seeing a mild 'rebuke' in the press would make the teams think twice. Instead, shortly thereafter, they were all talking about the cheating that didn't get reported...

The only thing that stands half a chance of working is to get the sponsors and big team owners a disincentive to support the bad-boy image. When the marketing end of things realizes they can sell more with squeaky-clean than they can with bad-boy, then things will change. But I don't see that happening any time soon, if ever.

And one last thing: don't focus on wiping as the be-all cheat; continuing to play with a hit on is much less of a risk, easier to get away with and much more common. Wiping is difficult to deny in the face of eye-witnesses. Playing on has a multitude of alternative explanations - 'old hit', 'off the bunker', 'didn't see it', 'didn't feel it', 'the other ref told me to play on', 'it was from an eliminated player', blah, blah, blah.

Sorry - but Tom is right. Complaining about it is wasted hot air, threats to do something to the cheater are ineffective at best and only gets you branded as a player that 'can't handle it'.

[hitech]

I was the first one to ever report assessed penalties in tournament coverage - back around '88, '89. I didn't publish player names - just a total of penalty points by team.

I remember that. It was a very good idea. :clap:

That reminds me of yet another manner in which we have gone backwards in tournament paintball. Lively had started keeping score of penalties by player name. Too many penalties and you would not be allowed to participate. Can you even imagine that today? :rolleyes:

It's too bad. Things were headed in the right direction and got derailed.

[rabidchihauhau]

Madmolly,

your thoughts are headed in the right direction - but you are focusing on the wrong group.

The PROMOTERS and the ADVERTISERS are the ones who need to feel the heat if there is going to be any change. THEY have to be the ones who encourage a team to play within the rules.

How about an annual sponsorship contract given out to a regularly competing team that had the least penalty points - regardless of their league standing?

I thought that when Bill Shatner walked into the first Shatnerball and proclaimed that the game was all about fairness and teamwork that we might be seeing that kind of institutional change coming from the top: a highly visible individual who promoted fair play, insisted on it for things he was involved in, etc. Unfortunately, SPPLAT didn't run far or fast enough with that ball.

So long as the guys who are breaking the rules are the ones who get the rewards, all of the wannabes will aspire to being the bad guy. When the good guy gets rewarded, it will change.

I think we're talking about a generational change here; its literally got to be compeltely 'out with the old' before the new can come in. That means it will happen AFTER my time.

Someday. Maybe. Maybe, somewhere in America, a couple of kids will manage to get through a game of Monopoly without anyone cheating, they'll remember that experience, one of them will get elected President and, when the space aliens arrive, they'll find a bucolic paradise on earth waiting for them.

Nice fantasy, huh? More likley the kid who is president will run off to the US Territory of the Middle East with the treasury - and no one will know because the deficit is SO huge the few billion in tax dollars being collected gets put down as 'miscellaneous expenses'.

Meanwhile, OBL's son, who, having gone to Harvard and after being elected Governor of the state of California, will manage to get the election laws changed and will be running against 'that thief' who absconded with the budget.

All you need to do is read today's headlines to realize the above is not all that fantastical.

And YOU'RE worried about cheating in paintball.....

[Beemer]

That means it will happen AFTER my time

Hey old scool man, I got news for ya. This is AFTER Our time.



p.s. Partied with JDN2 last week remember him?


I.A.D.S.P.B.P
Peace Out
Beemer

[TDonovan]

that would mean 90% of tournament players are losers along with a great majority of scenario players now.

This sport is more about winning now. The more you win the more you impress your sponsors and the more money you get. If you play fair and not win you're not gonna last long in the paintball scene unless you got really deep pockets

That's exactly what I mean. Winning isn't winning if you cheat to do it. I'd ALWAYS rather lose a game because I played fair and messed up than because I decided to wipe or conceal a hit I knew I had.

I honestly couldn't care less what the "pros" do, or what "everyone else" does because they couldn't be more wrong (the cheating ones that is).

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

yes but if you lose than you don't impress sponsors and you dont get money. in the tournament mindset it's win no matter what. Winning = Money even if you have to cheat to win.

[player4]

The best thing about wiping is that you get hit more........... :p

[rabidchihauhau]

Beemer,

yeah, you're right, but I like to lie to myself and pretend I'm younger than I am.

TDonovan.

I understand where you are coming from ethically, but you are missing a major point:

the people you call 'losers' because they 'cheat' ARE the 'winners'. They've won sponsorship, titles, trophies, product, free rides, magazine covers, free trips, adulation, fame...and everything that goes with it.

You are trying to impose an 'external' morality into a closed culture. In the paintball culture, 'winners' are determined strictly by one set of criteria - and that is, placing first at an event. The measure of success is not what you did to get there but solely arriving there.

You and others will continue to experience discord when attempting to 'foist' your morality on a group that has clearly rejected 'your' kind of thinking. So far as they are concerned, you are nothing but a 'loser' or a 'whiner' who 'has no game so they have to complain about cheating instead of sucking it up and learning how to play their game'.

The culture needs to change. That will only happen through either a grass roots revolution (impossible to very unlikely) or when it is imposed from the top because it is found to be in the financial best interest of those making the money.

Sad. True.

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

no one could have said it better than that

[RONIN01]

It sounds like Rabidchihauhau has a good point. The description of the tournament "Paintball Culture" sounds very Anthropological in nature. I seriously doubt that it will ever be in the financial best interest of tournament promoters to tighten the reigns on cheaters, it really does go against the "bad boy" image they have created.
I also think that those players who are fed up with the tournament scene will and should find refuge in retroball of some sort. It's much harder to cheat when you're playing pump or stock class, or even just a restricted type semi-auto game.
One other point: Although cheating is rampant in the tournament culture, the level of actual skill is also very high. :D