Marine Investigated for Killing Wounded Iraqi

[taylor492]

Sounds like a pretty sticky situation (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&ncid=535&e=2&u=/ap/20041116/ap_on_re_mi_ea/fallujah_prisoner_shot) .

Its all over the news, and I dont mean to sound morbid or anything, but id be interested in seeing this video in its entirety(sp?)

[WingMan13]

War is hell. I'm glad it wasn't a dead Marine instead.

[Fred]

if you had been shot the day before, you'd be jumpy too when you saw a body you thought was "pretending to be dead" start moving as you walked past it.

That, and he didn't know how long those wounded had been in the mosque.

I saw the clip last night on the news.

Keep kickin butt boys!

---Fred

[BlackVCG]

Some people are saying "Bring our troops home!"

Instead, I'd like to say "Bring our media home!"

They'll just stir up more crap here, but it's better than them being over there.

[Steelrat]

Yeah, how many people is this "news story" going to get kidnapped and excecuted? Its time like this that I wish the media would practice some restraint.

I hope they dont scapegoat that marine. He had been shot the day before. They were clearing a building that they believed they had taken fire from. They had no idea the guys were prisoners. ANOTHER group of marines had just gone in there and shot the same guys. A fellow marine was killed a few blocks away by a booby-trapped Iraqi corpse. Bad stuff happens in war, Im sure the guy wouldnt have done it had he known the whole situation. But now everyone is going to demand "justice." I hope they stick up for our guys fighting over there.

[oldsoldier]

Honestly, its BS. The guy was faking dead. For what reason? So they would bypass him, and he'd shoot them in the back? Hello people, this is war, its not a nice thing. The marine did the right thing. The guy is no longer a threat. I cant believe the world wants to persecute this guy for doing his job...
Also, this is yet another reason reporters whouldnt be on the front lines. Now, every time a touchy situation comes up, a soldier is going to second guess himself. Way to go newspeople. We should start blaming our casualties on you now, for making our troops combat ineffective.

[HoppysMag]

i know where to get the video, pm if interested.

edit: and i agree its war. the vast majority of these "innocent" arnt innocent. and i wouldnt try the soldier for anything. i may make an investigation to find out if maybe this was a mercy killing or if the person had been shooting at the marines earlyer.

[FactsOfLife]

The terrorists have been using their own wounded as booby traps, setting them up with bombs to kill US Marines as they clear buildings.

I find it disgusting in the extreme that so called US news orginisations like MSNBC are more upset over this than they were over the Nick Berg beheading, and the other attacks on civilians over there.

[B.A.M.]

the media causes more trouble than they cause. damn demacrats. Just let the military handel there own situation. Besides isnt that one less insurgent with a gun like the german in Saving Pvt Ryan

[Ghetto]

Some people are saying "Bring our troops home!"

Instead, I'd like to say "Bring our media home!"

They'll just stir up more crap here, but it's better than them being over there.

I couldn't agree more. The imbedded reporters with an all access pass to everything the troops do is wrong IMO. Its war, people die in war(in this case one of the people we are there to eliminate). Like others have said before the guy was shot the day before, I'd be a bit trigger happy aswell. I hope they clear him of all charges and let him do his job.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

Damn liberal media. We are in a war. People die in war. Do they not understand that civilians get killed all the time. They dont have a field day when 50 civilians die. Only when one injured Iraqi "rebel" gets killed. The marina thought he could be a threat, so he took care of it. Damn, I hate the media.

[TDonovan]

I don't see the problem here... Marines using their best judgement and doing their job.

[B.A.M.]

Besides doesnt the goverment pay them to kill :shooting: :shooting: :shooting: :shooting:

[bornl33t]

welp, he's dead now. One less guy we have to track down later....since these ppl aren't playing fair we have to be twice as cautious. The actions either way where justified.

[logamus]

that terrorist had it coming.

[SCpoloRicker]

the media causes more trouble than they cause.

:confused:

I swear I didn't edit that.

Even the hippies ;) agree that unsecured target gets double tapped.

edit: If you hate the media, and by that you most likely mean TV, turn it off. It's the button on the top right corner. Seriously, just turn it off. There are plenty of ways to glean whats going on on the web, and you can be selective.

[HoppysMag]

when in doubt empty out.


bullets are cheap, american lives are exspensive.

[MaChu]

I love how two media sources are broadcasting the story. Al-Jazzira says "Innocent man in place of worship is brutally murdered in cold blood by American pig dogs." while others say "Americans after checking out a former place of conflict finds enemy soldier believed to be booby trapped, still living, hazardous and poses threat, is killed."(in simple words).

This conlfict will never end. What is seen as heroic and martyrdom in Arab Muslim eye's is heinous and goes against all conventional rules of war in the Western world. While when we try to fight based on their grounds, they see it as a violation of human rights. Before going into the Middle East against, Bust should have thought of the consequences of the clash between Muslim Arab and Western cultures, they just don't mix. WWIII will be fought in the arid deserts of the Middle East.

See we didn't have this problem in WWII when people shot the Nazis in cold blood and they did the same with us, there was no world shockwaves of "OMG", no one knew about it, but kinda did. Thank you media for making war for us even that much more complicated.

[FactsOfLife]

We're already IN WW3. and WW4 if you think the Cold War was a world war.

Islamo-Fascism needs to be wiped out.

They aren't interested in "getting along" with us.

They are only interested in doing to every man, woman, and child, what they did to Nick Berg.

[Konigballer]

This is one of those situations, although fairly rare, were I agree with Facts.

I have no objection to the actions taken by the marine in question. It was a dirty, and from a purely moralistic and logical viewpoint, wrong...but war is'nt clean, it is'nt moral, and it is'nt logical. Things like this have happened, and have happend, in every war fought by soldiers of all nations.

In a down and dirty urban fight against insurgents who shoot marines on one block, and then hide among civilians in the next, combat "excesses" by adrenalin fueled soldiers with their fingers on the trigger can only be expected. Historically, close range, bloody urban warfare has usually seen the lines between "acceptable" soldierly conduct and outright atrocity blur, if not dissapear completely, even in confrontations between uniformed conventional western armies. Now if your in Fallujah fighting a gueriila force who is nothing like you at all, either in culture, military ethics, or training standards, your naturally going to have an even greater occurance, and acceptance, of things like on the spot executions of surrendering or wounded insurgents by frontline forces. It's just war.

Any PC minded dope, be they civilian or military, who thinks wars are fought as cleanly as a chess match has never read ANYTHING on combat, and certainly never experienced it first hand. Picture the intensity, and confusion of that last urban fight for the bridge at the end of "Saving Private Ryan", times that by a thousand because your now in Fallujah,the bullets and explosions are real, and your death is final. After enough days of being in that kind of situation, can you honestly say you WOULD'NT react the same way as that Marine did when you encountered any enemy? I dont think I could.

[nastymag]

well taking the oppisite side of the argument here, i think the soldier should get reprimended ( though not imprisoned or anything like that). i'll explain why. i agree there is more to the story then just a cold blooded murder. another marine from the same unit had been killed the day before by a booby trapped body.but the insurgent was bound adn wounded, not booby trapped or about to shoot someone in the back. We rightfully think our selves more just the terrorists and insurgents, by that token we must always watch what we do. the war is not only about beating down the insurgents, its also about winning the hearts and minds of the iraqi people. so we have to be extra carefull when dealing with matters such as these. War is brutal, i understand that. But if you dont have people watching how we conduct ourselves there we could end up worse, because incidents like these and the prison abuses could turn iraqis from supporting us ...or beings unreasonably scarred.

[LudavicoSoldier]

Some people are saying "Bring our troops home!"

Instead, I'd like to say "Bring our media home!"

They'll just stir up more crap here, but it's better than them being over there.

Are you saying that the world shouldnt know what is going on down on the ground with the troops? This is a publicized war, deal with it. All modern wars HAVE been publicized and will continue to be. If only the military knew what was going on, how would any potential wrongdoing ever get resolved? Are you going to beiieve only what our government chooses to tell us?

The US Military IS NOT God's gift to the world, nor is it unaccountable for its actions. I am not saying that what this particular soldier did was wrong by any means. If I was in the same situation I'd probably do the same. All I am saying is that as much as it pains you that there are non military personel watching whats happens over there, its just the way it is.

Besides, I LIKE seeing pics/movies of what is going on over there. Gives me a little chance to live vicariously through them.

[HoppysMag]

Are you saying that the world shouldnt know what is going on down on the ground with the troops? This is a publicized war, deal with it. All modern wars HAVE been publicized and will continue to be. If only the military knew what was going on, how would any potential wrongdoing ever get resolved? Are you going to beiieve only what our government chooses to tell us?

The US Military IS NOT God's gift to the world, nor is it unaccountable for its actions. I am not saying that what this particular soldier did was wrong by any means. If I was in the same situation I'd probably do the same. All I am saying is that as much as it pains you that there are non military personel watching whats happens over there, its just the way it is.

Besides, I LIKE seeing pics/movies of what is going on over there. Gives me a little chance to live vicariously through them.


i believe hes refering to the elements of the media who use whats going on over there to serve there own political agendas and boost thier ratings. i dont think anyone here wants this war to be a secret that no one tells about. but we need news who dont freak out everytime a civilian gets caught in the crossfire and accuse the US of war crimes. US troops are going to extrodinary messures to avoid civilian casualtys. but remember, the united states marine corp is not an occupying force. they arnt trained for that ( they are, but thats not waht they specialize at)

[LudavicoSoldier]

True. I woudnt exactly say that this particular report had a clear political agenda though. The camera man saw what he saw. Everyone who sees the video/pics is going to drawn their own conclusions. I would say that to the untrained eye, it might look like the Marine in question was in the wrong. There are people here on the boards who I am sure know whats it is like to be under fire and constantly on gaurd, and they most likely have better insight as to WHY the Marine did what he did. War is hell, IIRC. :shooting:

[skife]

well taking the oppisite side of the argument here, i think the soldier should get reprimended ( though not imprisoned or anything like that). i'll explain why. i agree there is more to the story then just a cold blooded murder. another marine from the same unit had been killed the day before by a booby trapped body.but the insurgent was bound adn wounded, not booby trapped or about to shoot someone in the back. We rightfully think our selves more just the terrorists and insurgents, by that token we must always watch what we do. the war is not only about beating down the insurgents, its also about winning the hearts and minds of the iraqi people. so we have to be extra carefull when dealing with matters such as these. War is brutal, i understand that. But if you dont have people watching how we conduct ourselves there we could end up worse, because incidents like these and the prison abuses could turn iraqis from supporting us ...or beings unreasonably scarred.

he was moving, thats just more of a reason to kill him.

but it was probably for the best to kill him, he was wounded and bound, our marines were running from a building that was under heavy fire, were not going to take the time to carry prisioners out of a building because they are wounded, and it was easier to put the guy out of his misery than let him suffer.

[HoppysMag]

he was moving, thats just more of a reason to kill him.

but it was probably for the best to kill him, he was wounded and bound, our marines were running from a building that was under heavy fire, were not going to take the time to carry prisioners out of a building because they are wounded, and it was easier to put the guy out of his misery than let him suffer.


well if the situtation was really that hes was wounded beyond help then it is justified.or if he did pose a threat. but i dont think its acceptable to kill some one simply because you dont want to help him for waht ever reason or its incovenient. we do need to hold ourselves to a higher standard than these people. but the rest of the world should shut the hell up and be happy we didnt just level the city. the world forgets, these are not uniformed soldiers, the geniva convention does not protect them from anything.

ether way i wouldnt charge the marine with any crimes or anything.

little military trivia.

What weapon did the germans try to ban in ww1?
What was the only weapon to be banned by the pope?


EDIT : just read the geneva convention and am unsure on status of these insurgents. they dont cary distinctive sign reconisable at distance so i believe they are not entitled to the protect that say a militia would recieve.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

It wasnt just inconvienent to carry him out, it could have been deadly. It's not like this hasnt happened before in Irag. It was just the first time it was captured on camera.

[HoppysMag]

It wasnt just inconvienent to carry him out, it could have been deadly. It's not like this hasnt happened before in Irag. It was just the first time it was captured on camera.

i know what you mean, but there are reports that the man had already been secure and there was atleast another live man in there. they think that the man had been wounded, found and secured by the last group of marines in the building. when the new group came it they were unaware that the building had been secured, the man moved, the marine shot.

other reports dont mention wether he was secured or not.

[Kevn 419]

Too much politics in war nowadays.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Too much politics in war nowadays.

War IS politics.

[HoppysMag]

War IS politics.

too much political correctness in war now adays

the enenemy only the enemy till they are killed, then they are innocent civilians in the wrong place and the world cries

[Konigballer]

Hey Hoppy, did'nt Pope Urban II try ban the crossbow from use against christians during the middle ages?

I dont know what weapon Germany tried to ban durring WW1, since they came up with most of the inovations in weaponry 'cept the tank. I know THEY were banned from developement and production of many weapons after the end of the war, wich didnt really last that long......

[PyRo]

I think they wanted to ban a certain type of knife, maybie somthing to do with aircraft?
The U.S. and I don't know what other countries were big on trying to get chemical weapons banned but never succeded I think they still used them during the secont world war. Japan was definatly big on banning PT boats those things rocked :)

[HoppysMag]

Hey Hoppy, did'nt Pope Urban II try ban the crossbow from use against christians during the middle ages?

I dont know what weapon Germany tried to ban durring WW1, since they came up with most of the inovations in weaponry 'cept the tank. I know THEY were banned from developement and production of many weapons after the end of the war, wich didnt really last that long......


yup the pope banned the crossbow

and the germans wanted the shotgun banned and threatened no mercy to any soldier captured carrying a shot gun or shotgun ammo.

[Konigballer]

oh yeah, I forgot about them griping about the pump shotgun our boys carried for trench work. And yet the krauts had no problem giving their guys Bergman submachine guns for the same purpose near the end of the war. Hypocritical huns!! :p

[taylor492]

having just watched the unedited version(thanks hoppysmag)of the tape i have to say its very hard to tell what is going on. You can just barely make out a body on the floor. And i think there would be no way to tell from the video if the man was a threat to anyone in the room. Now what you dont hear is that later on in the video the cameraman walks over towards another man laying on the floor covered with a blanket. This man was no less than about 8 feet from the man the soldier shot. Now my question is this. Why would that marine shoot a man laying on the floor who didnt seem to be moving yet leave the other alone. They clearly saw him. Im not fluent in arabic or whatever language they speak so i dont know what the other man said to the marines. I think the marine in question saw an amount of risk in the one and not in the other and that is why he shot him.

I truly hope nothing serious happens to this marine.

[PyRo]

yup the pope banned the crossbow

and the germans wanted the shotgun banned and threatened no mercy to any soldier captured carrying a shot gun or shotgun ammo.
What was their problem with the shotgun? They're going to die getting shot with a rifle too just not as quickly.

[HoppysMag]

What was their problem with the shotgun? They're going to die getting shot with a rifle too just not as quickly.


they claimed it was cruel and inhumane because alot of times people didnt die right away. this is coming from the people who invented mustard gas, that makes you caugh and puke untill your throat blisters closed and your lungs blister and bleed. sounds quick and painless huh?

[Thordic]

Weren't triangular bayonets banned after WW1?

[rkjunior303]

Weren't triangular bayonets banned after WW1?


something like that. i can see how that is cruel -- basically you bleed out from a wound that doesn't close. God forbid, though, you go to war and actually KILL one of your enemies these days.

[aaron_mag]

That poor bastard is going to get sacrificed by the politicians (the marine). It is a shame too.

I don't think having the imbedded reporters is a good thing. They have no business being there. And, as everyone already mentioned, bad things happen in war. That is just the way it is. Mistakes happen too and they are costly (lives are lost). But again...that is war.

But we shouldn't be surprised that insurgents use tactics like those described above. They are outgunned. We would do some of the same things if we were outgunned (not those horrendous beheadings I hope). But I would definetly booby trap stuff and play cat and mouse if I couldn't win a straight up fight. You try to win by any means possible.

That being said ('you try to win by any means possible') you can't expect one side to fight by one set of rules and the other to fight by another. We learn that our troops engage in psychological warfare/torture to try and get insurgents to reveal hiding spots and then we are surprised and outraged? How else do you get them to talk? Did we think this was going to be waving flags and aircraft flying in tight formation overhead? It was and is going to be hell. The worst sides of mankind showing up (and our troops seeing things that no human beings want to witness). Which is WHY we should have THOUGHT it through clearly before we got into this stupid thing. Which is WHY we should have relied on what OUR OWN intelligence community was telling us (that there were no weapons of mass destruction). But we're in it now....

[PyRo]

they claimed it was cruel and inhumane because alot of times people didnt die right away. this is coming from the people who invented mustard gas, that makes you caugh and puke untill your throat blisters closed and your lungs blister and bleed. sounds quick and painless huh?
I always thought shotguns were desierable for treanch clearing because they killed someone much faster than a rifle so they didn't have a chance to shoot you while they were dieing. Unless they were using the spread to cover large areas the I could see it not killing right away.
You walk up to someone and shoot them in the chest with a rifle or a pistol and they will probably have a few seconts if not more until they die, you walk up to someone and shoot them in the chest with buckshot they're not getting back up.

[PyRo]

We learn that our troops engage in psychological warfare/torture to try and get insurgents to reveal hiding spots and then we are surprised and outraged? How else do you get them to talk?

Yup, we're sure tortureing them back making them stand for an hour! Yelling at them! Even having dogs around them, the horror. Now when Sadam wanted someone to talk they would kill their family, beat them, and do all kinds of things. We sure are the bad guys here.
They want us out so they kidnap people and cut of their heads accomplishing not much more than getting people more pissed off at them.

[HoppysMag]

I always thought shotguns were desierable for treanch clearing because they killed someone much faster than a rifle so they didn't have a chance to shoot you while they were dieing. Unless they were using the spread to cover large areas the I could see it not killing right away.
You walk up to someone and shoot them in the chest with a rifle or a pistol and they will probably have a few seconts if not more until they die, you walk up to someone and shoot them in the chest with buckshot they're not getting back up.

well the shotguns ideal in trenches because it sprays and covers an area and is the true point and click interface ;) not much aim needed. but each pellet does less damage over distance, and you get hit with less pellets as the pattern of shot opens up. so ya, at 10 or 30 yards. the enemys dead before they hit the ground, but at larger distances you will die slower. ( keep in mind when most people are shot, its not always like a movie when they pull the one last gasp of breath then say some clever line and shoot back. most will go into shock or shock paralysis)

not to mention that you are reaction shooting in this situation so most shots arnt clean kills.

the shotgun was ideal for our troops to quickly point, shoot and disable the enemy. but not good for the germans on the other end.

[SlartyBartFast]

When being judged for your actions, you will be judged against the gold standard.

NOT in comparison with your enemy or those who were worse.

If you're a religious type, that would mean your not pious because you only broke one commandment but someone else broke two. Or, in both terms of commandments and non-religious types, adultery is adultery regardless of how many times you do it.

Or did your Mother accept the lame "I did it because everyone else was doing it" excuse?

Is your wife/girlfriend dumb enough to accept the excuse "I only slept with one other woman, it's not like I slept with hordes of women"?

Saying the others do worse means that you get judged as the lesser of two evils. On the scale of good or evil, that leaves you firmly on the side of evil.