Rocking Trigger: Should it be Tourney Legal?

[Lurker27]

http://acp-products.com/erik/images/rockn-ad.jpg

I say no, since it doesn't require a pull and release for each shot. If you simply hold down your middle finger with constant force, and press you index finger down with a force greater than that force each trigger pull, you get 2 shots per pull. Oh yes, you do. It's not like this is some new controversial design. This is an OLD design which has been ruled on, and struck down, time and time again since doc nickel made one on a cocker in 1996. No, the trigger rules haven't changed...in fact, they're MORE strict with bounce now an issue.

[Chronobreak]

"anyone can go from no skill to pro skill"
:rolleyes:


i gues if pro skill= slinging crapload of paint

and no it shouldnt be legal

i dont need newbs shooting faster than the dm4 guys :p

[CrimsonGhost]

Lol.... Allow it.

[SupaSharpShoota7]

Im with CrimsonGhost on this one, allow it, heh not like the entire game isnt progressing towards this anyways. and hey now you can actually gloat over shooting that kid with his spyder.

[xXHavokXx]

Don't allow it. We don't need kids at rec fields on their second day of playing blind over shooting and the like.

[TheTramp]

2 switches = 2 "triggers" = illegal.

'nuff said.

[Python14]

How would you shoot that thing anyway? Walk it?

[NJPaint]

How would you shoot that thing anyway? Walk it?

yes, except the force pushing one trigger down would reset the other.

[Wc Keep]

it has two microswitches it would no way be faster than if you were walking. just makes walking easier on these crapy spyders.

[ej_y4]

it has two microswitches it would no way be faster than if you were walking. just makes walking easier on these crapy spyders.

I got to shoot one at the nppl HB event, i found could shoot it slightly faster then a normal trigger, but thats just me. As fun as this trigger was, i do not want the rules changed to alow it.

note: i tried it on a half back cocker

[68magOwner]

can anyone explain to me why that would be any faster than a nromal trigger anyway? seems like you would still just walk it

[Duzzy]

I have never used one, but it looks like you could just put a finger on each trigger and jiggle your wrist to shoot it, which might take a little less time than walking.

[nt2004]

allow it in the nxl. Anything goes in the nxl...

I mean if ramping and cheater boards are so welcomed in paintball, why not a gripframe with 2 switches? ;)

[Fred]

two switches = double the electronic noise to cause bounce!

its nice someone finally made it into a final product, I believe the one Doc did was on a Shocker or Angel back in the day.

making this legal would have to make the Emag's Hybrid legal, since that uses two sources for firing (HES and trigger rod).

---Fred

[Bubonic Plauge]

Make it legal....Let every $150 spyder shoot 30bps!

Has paintball evolved to nothing more than who shoots the fastest? If shooting fast does NOT = skill.....than why all the trigger rules? My 2 cents....shooting fast does = skill. And that is lame, fast fingers = good paintball player?

If all equipment was equal, than we would have true skill. Is PB tourney's nothing more than who's got the dough?


P.S. I enjoy playing against players who use bounce...PB is fun no matter what to me!

[felony]

Has paintball evolved to nothing more than who shoots the fastest?



yes

[master_alexander]

i vote yes, think about that on a spydermag!!

[Fallout-]

I say let it in it wont change any thing.
Let in full auto 26rd burts and hyper reactive triggers! 11bps from a slow walker or 30bps form the same guy holding down the trigger. It just dosent matter. If every one can shoot as fast as they want any way they want then true tallent will rise above the whole my gun is faster than yours thing.
Let it in and crack down on the real problems you know like wipping.(to bad that wont happen)

[WARPED1]

Should be allowed. I'd get one if I liked Spyders.

[Duzzy]

If every one can shoot as fast as they want any way they want then true tallent will rise above the whole my gun is faster than yours thing.

Let it in and crack down on the real problems you know like wipping.(to bad that wont happen)

I like the wiping idea, but how exactly does talent run through a 30 bps rope? I think if it ever gets to that point people will just have 3 people shoot at the opposing starting station and 2 on each side ( 7 man team). You would kill most of their team with a little practice on how far people move in the 2 seconds it takes before 150+ paintballs hit them.

[Renegade_Azzy]

Sure, allow it, but if you have one, gravity feed only.

[JoshK]

the faster you shoot...the more money you are spending...and most important for the other team...you are gonna be reloading more often, and you might even run out....i say let them spend more money on tons of paint, so we can laugh at them when a pumper with one ball left runs up and bunker them while they are reloading....hmmm...fun :mad:

[Doc Nickel]

To clarify a bit, mine was on a Shocker (4X4) and I did it in the latter half of '98. (Photo here.) (http://www.docsmachine.com/galleries/rockingtrigger.jpg)

One of the NPPL honchos E-mailed me within a week of my posting the pics, and told me in no uncertain terms that it was not NPPL legal. Mine used a single microswitch and a center-neutral setup. Pull the top half and it fired, release it and it returned to neutral. Pull the bottom half and it fired, release it and it returned to neutral.

I tried to explain- and have several more times over the years- that each firing was a single trigger-pull-and-release, as stipulated in the rules. No, I'm told, the trigger has to fire the gun once, and only once, per full range of motion, or one full cycle of the trigger.

And since the "full range" on a rocking trigger includes an "upper" pull-and-release AND a "lower" pull-and-release, that's two shots per pull, and therefore not NPPL legal. Also, the NPPL states the marker can have only a single trigger switch, so that right there also means the new rocker we're talking about is not NPPL legal.

Now, my understanding of the NPPL regs is a few years out of date, and I suspect that some changes have been made, although it's the same ruling that controls ramping and cheater boards (IE, more than one shot per trigger pull.)

That also doesn't mean that the other tourney series like the NXL, have also banned it, but interested parties should pay attention to the rules before buying. (Yeah, right! :D )

Also worth pointing out, a system with two trigger switches will almost always have twice the trigger travel of a single-switch system. In other words: You know how short you can get a standard electro trigger, right? There's a certain minimum distance the trigger has to travel to engage the switch, then a certain distance it has to go to let the switch reset.

Well, two switches will "stack" that distance- the trigger has to activate, then release one switch, then in the other direction, it'll activate and then release the other. Ergo, twice the distance of a normal setup.

You can fudge the distance a bit, putting some of the reset distance into the activate distance of the other switch, but the you do have to have a "center neutral" position where neither switch is activated. Otherwise you get an "auto response" mode where the gun fires on the pull and again on the release (definitely, it need not be pointed out, tourney-legal.)

It's not a big thing, but the same system could easily be done with a single switch- I did it five years ago- and would halve the trigger swing length.

Doc.

[bryceeden]

Heres my take on it, its still a Spyder. I am very glad to see this and have already made the decision that it is legal in all of the tourneys in the UPC series. This to me means that the kid with a $150 spyder will be able to walk on the field and not be afraid of the guy with the (insert favorite $1000+ electro) I don't see it being much if any faster than a good high end electro and the spyder still has more recoil giving it a dissadvantage. All this does is give the local budget team a chance.

[magman007]

well, if it is legal on a spyder, why cant it be legal on a dm5? g7 angel? alias timmy? it isnt fair for one marker to have different specs than others in that regard. if it is made nppl legal, i guess il be waiting to get my new marker till it comes standard with this system, because "raking the trigger" is uber fast with this setup

[xXHavokXx]

well, if it is legal on a spyder, why cant it be legal on a dm5? g7 angel? alias timmy? it isnt fair for one marker to have different specs than others in that regard. if it is made nppl legal, i guess il be waiting to get my new marker till it comes standard with this system, because "raking the trigger" is uber fast with this setup


He's got a point, why not alow two switches on the electros, get more uses out of the angry boards and v35s.

[SoTexBalla806]

sorry guys, but no kid shooting a spyder can move his fingers 15 times in one second. 30bps is CRAP. This is the same as a regular trigger... I wouldnt allow it because then we WOULD see guns that can shoot 30bps like DM5's and crap using this technology, but i dont think its a big deal at all...

[RTDynaflow]

Wow, leave it to Kingman to come up with another retarded ad. Where the hell did they find their marketing exec's?

To the topic... No, I wouldn't say it's legal. If it would be legalized what would be next? A DM5 frame with a longer "top" section? Think about it, you move the pivot point down some and hold your ring finger on the bottom section and walk the top with your normal walking fingers... auto response. Techinically they are right in the rules. The way they are written makes it so a full cycle of the trigger must stop and reverse direction to be legal. But... it is on fine, fine line of gray. Sadly enough if they legalized it, some pro would be crying that the gray line is white, another that white line is black and the black line is gray. :tard:

*sigh*

[LeatherPants]

I think that we should look more at everyday play instead of tournies. At least at a tournament there are rules, refs and regulations. What about your local field where there may 2 refs watching over 30+ people.

This is where kids get hurt. If only the paintball companies and fields would take responsibility. Though it would never happen it would be nice if field owners would not allow ramping chips or triggers like these. Only a small percentage of players actually play large tournaments where there is regulation. Most just play on the weekends or small tournies.

If fields were strict then it would be not be worth it to buy a "cheater" board. I won't stop untill some kid really gets hurt. But then the insurance companies would just put the lock down on all paintball.

[LeatherPants]

Youre going to overshoot little kids now LP? :nono: Youre evil :mad:


That's wrong. You know I stop before they pass out. :shooting:

[mixwell2]

"anyone can go from no skill to pro skill"



Isn't that what a DM4 is!!
:rolleyes:

[Enemy]

as far as tourneys go it shouldnt be legal at all!!! as far as at the feild i work at i check every gun at the chrono and always ask to that i personally shoot it.. we are a noobie field so thats all i have to look for.. now if i ever got someone with this trigger i would allow it but there is ofcoarse going to be one condition every game he goes against me ill match his bps with my own!! he wont get more than one shot off i swear thats how i deal with cheaters!

[xXHavokXx]

Isn't that what a DM4 is!!
:rolleyes:


more like no skill....to pimp with no skill but still a pimp

[phantomhitman]

2 switches = 2 "triggers" = illegal.

'nuff said.

i think this is right. i believe they banned the osiris for hte same reason. i believe if there were 1 contact point it would be legal though :confused:

[CrimsonGhost]

But your not talking about NPPL NXL stuff with a Spyder (usualy) this is aimed at the starter player...so the point of it being tourny legal is moot in my mind.
Rec fields (where this will show up) dont check for bounce,cheaters, etc. They just check chrono speed and let you on to mow down folks.( I cant count how many times Ive been "torched" on a rec field playing vs. advanced players)

So ...more to the point ...If you owned a field would you have your refs check for this type of set up at the chrono?
And then what do you do when thse players get told that they cant use that marker...and complain " But you allow the Timmys,DM4,5s, Imps, etc. to go on unchecked!!"(for rampers,cheaters,bounce)

Yeah you can tell the spyder guys ,"tough !" but...in my mind(being the evil vindictive bastige that I am) I would go out ,buy a cheater capable marker, ramp it up as far as it will go and let loose on that field...just to prove a point.

Yeah , I know ...there are a few things wrong with my scenario but...you get the idea. 1 marker designed to have an edge is no different than another.

So again...let them allow it. Its no worse or better than any other marker that has a built in advantage.

:cheers:

[phantomhitman]

if your comment was directed at me i never said go play a tourney with it. I have seen a lot of electro spyders at different tournies though (cfoa and acts, and many local tournies). I was just backing up the guy that said only 1 switch is allowed. I think the trigger is a cool idea, and since it is a spyder they should let them be legal (that is not a knock against them, but they are still slow). I still want to see an osiris roll to its full potential. :shooting:

[BAMFSK]

And this is why i stick to the woods you know where thers actually aiming involved instead of guessing where he'll be in 2 sec

[CrimsonGhost]

Phantom- No it wasnt aimed at you...sorry if thats the way it came out. I was just more talking to those who were stating from a tourny POV. And since local tournys make up the rules as they go (alot so I have seen and such) I was more talking about the NPPL and NXL stuff...or not ...as the case may be.
:cheers:

[CaliMagFan]

i say legalize it... ergonomically speaking, there is no way that can shoot faster than walking a normal trigger.... cause its not as if there were a shot on the pull and on the release... its that there are 2 independent triggers that each have to be pulled in the opposite way of each other..... 2 fingers can only tap ~16 times per second for fast guys so i dont see that one mechanical difference will matter..

plus this design forces the user to exert equal force with bith fingers in opposite directions... i know for a fact that we all have a dominant finger for walking the trigger, this design will eliminate the choice of having one finger outwalk the other.....

crappy design that will sell on BS hype. legalize it, i'll still shoot them out.

-kyro

[evildead420]

ITs out. OMG!1!11!!! , J/K

http://www.actionvillage.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/DisplayProductInformation-Start;sid=y6p7xoUZ1n1708Thxfa7bo_QNEfiFbHFUAs=?Pro ductID=FgHAqArbW5sAAAEBLUFjr3L0#

i like this quote,
now anyone can go from no skill to pro skill lol

alot of people are going to buy this for sure.

[REDRT]

It still is one shot one pull. RTs bounce, electros debounce, some ramp. Let the spider guys have some fun to.

[mag88888]

wher can you buy them?

[Kallahan]

The problem with spyders is they lack eyes, so all this will do is allow you to chop balls faster.

[tony3]

Yeah you guys are right. All paintball is nowadays is shooting as fast as you can :rolleyes: Well then you can buy a dm4 with a ramping chip and v35 halo, shoot 25 bps, and you still won't be able to compete with any pro in the world.

[Buff]

teeheehee......spyders already chop all the time.
cant wait to see someone using this with a VL200......lol

[space_weazel_45]

any one want to buy one of these and mod it on to a mag?

why? because we can!

[Mr. Mouse]

ive seen one of these triggers in person, this guy had it on his osirus cocker , that thing was amazingly super duperly fast, fastest gun ive seen yet really, i still cant get over it

[Lurker27]

should be illegal.....

[Linkwarner]

sorry guys, but no kid shooting a spyder can move his fingers 15 times in one second
*raises hand* I do, or do I qualify because I have a spyder but never uses it?

[Chronobreak]

any one want to buy one of these and mod it on to a mag?

why? because we can!


soudlnt be much ahrder than the spyder mag mod.

i might buy one for a project spyder.

but as somone else stated w/out eyes this things gonna be trouble...most likely

[magman007]

btw, spyders are not slow by any means. they can free cycle up to 40 cps and beyond. they are actually some of the fastest things around. ram drivein guns are excessively fast. hence why the timmy, viking etc etc all cycle very fast in speed tests

[Chronobreak]

gah sry to jump in again...cps means nothing to me..bps is where its at.


i havent seen a vid with a timmy/spyder going over like 20..w/piant..

until i see a vid of it working these comments are null and void....hell a mq-mag can do like 40+ according to ronin

[BigBadBeDDy]

does it really matter if this is legal or not this is nothing compared to all the ramping/cheater boards out there.

[PaInTbALL zAcH]

I think as long as its available to everybody why shouldnt it be legal. If its screwing u over in games just buy one for yourself. I mean the only reason full auto was made illegal to begin with is becasue its a safety issue.

[Conversekidz]

It should be legal if a stock board is used. I could start seeing this happen at large tourny's, stock board only and the board is checked on a computer to see if it is flashed.

[GT]

I really dont see where you guys think this will get you any more than walking a standard trigger?


Well, two switches will "stack" that distance- the trigger has to activate, then release one switch, then in the other direction, it'll activate and then release the other. Ergo, twice the distance of a normal setup.

Great point,

So whats the difference bewteen this trigger frame and a 2x trigger with a center mounted roller bearing used for raking?

[Lohman446]

It should be legal if a stock board is used. I could start seeing this happen at large tourny's, stock board only and the board is checked on a computer to see if it is flashed.


How are you going to define stock - I can argue that my DevilMag came from a "factory: stock wtih a predator board in it - you might try to shoot holes in it but I think the argument holds.


Now that you have considered all the "modified" or other ideas you might have - not a MAJOR producer... I gaurentee my Rebound Shockers did not have those objections.

It should not be made legal now - back when Doc was playing with the idea, and was it Deadlywind? that made the fiddlestick trigger rules were set in place that clearly defined themselves - this stopped the innovators then... why should we allow others (with more market) to go back and take good ideas that were pronounced illegal than and profit from them now?

[Vanced]

Should it be Legal ?

Hell to me the thing is a lot closer to the "one ball per trigger pull rule" than one heck of a lot of the other fancy moded / ramping / bounce / burst enabled markers out there... that are allowed to compete currently ?

But what do I know... I am just a silly engineer... :rolleyes:

[CKY_Alliance]

i agree with those of you that say it isnt any faster then rgualar triggers or atleast becasue it like having an rt hiting it it comes back u hit it again.instead of having one trigger come back you have 2 kinda i think its all the same in the end becasue on both u still pull it twice...somethin like that...