CHEAP Night Vision?

[Duzzy]

Anyone know of a good cheap night vision system? I checked out some places and they are all 1k+ for systems and 300-400 for scopes. Now I was wondering if anyone knows were to get a cheap NV system for scenario play, a review on one you have personally used would be most excellent. If it can mount on a Normal E-mag rail (use a warp body) that would be all the better. Also, how well would the NV sights work? Any help is appreciated.

[Will Wood]

You can grab one of those one eyed ones for relatively cheap. I've used one and it works fine.
Not sure what kind it was.. but here is an example.

http://www.opticsplus.net/home/store/NightVision/SpottingScopes/ATNNZT65xMag

I'd recomend one of these.

[Duzzy]

Does it have a rail mount?

[hitech]

Here is the advice I got when I asked about NVs:


Don't waste your money on Gen 1 If they are hit with a Q-beam they're toast. with the moon be at a quarter you'll need a IR for it and that is a great big beacon for a gen III. http://www.scenarioball.com/modules...ame=NightVision This where I bought my last NV's from' you can get some good info here

I would say wait till you decide if you like playing scenarios before getting NVG's

Forum: BlackCat's Farewell to 2004 Event (Night of the Catman)
Topic: Equipment questions
started by: ao_hitech
Posted by ao_hitech on Oct. 15 2004,11:42
Please bear with me, as this is my first scenario game. I read the general rules and noticed a list of prohibited equipment. Based on that and a quick search of the forums I'm assuming that night vision goggles/scopes and two-way radios are allowed? If night vision is allowed, what is your opinion of its usefulness?

Thanks.

Posted by theVicious1 on Oct. 15 2004,12:12
Depends on how good you are with it, and how well its incorporated into your gear. i.e. attached to mask. If you can get it attached to goggles so that it's not a burden, then go for it. This is one of the things you can actually test outside of game conditions, so make sure you do so you get it right.

Posted by Caffiend on Oct. 15 2004,13:06
I've never used night vision in a game. Thought about it A LOT but the cost is just too much, I'd go with a head mounted set, somehow, but be warned, they are HEAVY, at least the head mounted ones. And they "shine" onto your eyes, meaning you can see the person wearing them. Granted, that's in a friendly environment, not sure how easily it would be to spot someone in game. And if you're looking to buy, go with Gen II or better. (the Gen III's ROCK but are quite pricey)

Posted by ao_hitech on Oct. 15 2004,14:23
So, both of you would be of the opinion that a "scope" style mounted to the "gun" wouldn't be worth it?

Is there enough light to see what's going on at night? Do you use a flashlight with a red lens?

Anyone know if they are going to have the street lights on?

Thanks for the opinions.

Posted by Spectre on Oct. 15 2004,16:57
If you can mount a scope to your gun and don't mind taking it on the field (I hope it's yours and not borrowed just in case) then that is the best way to go. If it is a gen 2 or gen 3 you will find it to be very useful. Night games are typically about stealth and tactics. The real winners are the ones with the nerve to try things in the dark. Most people don't shoot much at night and most rounds fired are at friendly targets. I notice out here most night game players use pumps and pistols rather then their daytime paintslingers. Good luck testing your gear and if you get a killer setup going I hope you end up on my side in the dark instead of me in your sights.

Posted by Traveller on Oct. 15 2004,18:50
We're looking at a Moon in the last quarter, so there should be some decent light.
I don't have an opinion on night vision. Never used it. Well, I can't say that. Sometimes you can track people by the little light you detect from their googles. I use it as a targeting point.
I prefer to stalk at night au naturale. And for fun, I pull out the 2 million candlepowers of pocket sunshine.

And as for two way radios...they are allowed and very useful. Though avoid VOX.

Posted by Spectre on Oct. 15 2004,20:45
This is why I said gen 2 or gen 3 - people are always carrying bright lights that will blind gen 1 and if you have a gen 2 or 3 you won't have to always use your IR ( the red light gives you away)

Posted by The Player on Oct. 15 2004,21:29
Hi Larry, radios and night vision are encouraged at Black Cat games. Unless there's a huge disparity in gear between the two sides, which I don't think will be the case.

I can answer your question directly -- At the last game I played (UEF Log 758309) I outfitted my stock gun with a Gen I scope, after finding a good deal on an ATN Aries mk 238. It was fun. I found that Gen I gear helps a lot for targeting people in the dark, but it isn't nearly enough to help you move around; there just isn't enough field of view. The conditions at this game were extremely dark; no moon, 100% tree cover, and steep terrain.

Is it worth it? Depends on how good a deal you can find, and whether or not you like playing with electronic gadgets. I thought it was fun. No night vision scope will make you invincible on the field, as indeed I wasn't; it just changes the way you play a little. Also, for those who are intimidated to go up against night vision, don't be.

I would recommend that EVERYONE planning to play in the night game bring a red flashlight. Keeps you from bumping into stuff, especially when you toddle back to base to reinsert. You don't need all that bright a flashlight, just enough to see where you're going.

And don't even think about cutting holes in a facemask for your night vision! That just isn't safe. There are ways to do it right. I found the weapon sight to be a safe and simple approach.

Posted by renegaderanger1 on Oct. 15 2004,21:59
I too would suggest a weapon-mounted unit.

1) You're in a ready position if something pops in "sight"

2) You aren't burdened with putting two separate pieces of aside you need to do something else.

And as stated before,

Don't be intimidated of going against NV, it doesn't make you invincible. I do quite fine without it, But it's definitely a kick to use!

Posted by Spectre on Oct. 16 2004,17:57
My NV is gen 1 and is not mountable. Sometimes I find it is better to go without it then to clunk around with a gun and a NV unit. Mounted is the way to go if you can afford to set it up. My gen 1 NV is useful as a spotter when working with teammates who are on earpiece radios and are dug in while I call the shots. Walking while looking through a gen 1 that is 2 inches from your eye (you will have a non modified approved goggle on) is like walking while only seeing through mirrors - your perception is way off.

Posted by ao_hitech on Oct. 18 2004,10:23
Thanks for all the advice. I'll probably wait and see what a game is like before making any purchases. It's nice to know that you can survive without one!

[master_alexander]

i would go with some kind of gen3, they really work, but they are $$$ good luck and tell me what you find

[Duzzy]

Thanks hitech, I was mainly looking for cheap ones because I don't know how much scenario play I will be doing. However, I really enjoyed the MXS one I went to in Kansas and thought it would be fun to try out NV without having to worry about breaking someone else's or spending a lot of money on something I won't use. Just curiousity what is a Q-beam? Sounds like a spotlight but I have no clue.

[penguinpunk555]

Use a flashlight.

[Duzzy]

Does that really work? I have never seen that in action, but I think it would make you a real easy target.

[hitech]

Just curiousity what is a Q-beam? Sounds like a spotlight but I have no clue.

I'm not sure, but gen. 1 NVs can easily be ruined by bright light. So, having a bright light (and apparently someone always has one of those supre spot lights at scenario games) shined at the NV will ruin it.

It seems to me that unless you can afford and justify at least a gen. 2 it's not worth it.


:cheers:

[Duzzy]

Good to know, I wasn't looking to spend that kind of money anyways, and knowing about Gen 1 makes life that much easier.

[penguinpunk555]

Have everyone of your friends buy nightvision.

You buy One BIGILLION candle flashlight. Shine it at them.

You win.

[mfalcone15]

i have a gen III monocular headmounted, i got it from scenarioball.com. it took an hour or two of walking around with it when i first got it to really be confortable, not i use it like second nature. I use the monocular so i'm not blinded if someone shines the light and flares my lens. The unit i have works well because i dont use the IR light, so no red light. NV def. does not make you invincible at night, but it adds a whole other dimension to scenario games. Some units are heavy, so really are not, mine is 16oz. i believe there are lighter ones, PVS 14s mostly that i know of

[Burphel]

First off, for all you people who talk about using a high-powered light to disable night vision:

It only works on the cheap ones!

If you get Gen2 or 3, the most it will do is shut the unit off automatically, and the player can then use his regular eyes to send a hopperload directly at your flashlight. If they've got a nice setup, they'll just laugh at you and put one in the center of your chest. I've had someone shine a Q-beam directly into Preacher's Gen3 set and still be able to read the t-shirt of the guy standing next to him.

That leads directly into the biggest misconception about night play, that flashlights are good things. Given a minute or so to let yourself adjust, the human eye can see well enough to play paintball in all but the darkest conditions. True, shining a light at someone sets this back, but, as the old saying goes, tracers work both ways. If you know where someone is well enough to shine a flashlight in thier eyes, *shoot them.* Chances are, if they aren't shooting, they haven't seen you and won't react in time to shoot back. If he's got a buddy, he may not be able to figure out exactly where you are based on sound alone. Using a flashlight announces your presence to anyone within range of you.

Last, for reference, a Q-beam is a battery operated spotlight, usually in the million-candlepower range. They are useful for base security, shining from towers, and other situations, but aren't really all that good for when you're actually in a firefight, because it means you're holding it, not a marker.

[hitech]

That leads directly into the biggest misconception about night play...

Any other hints about night play? I'm sure there are others here that planning on giving night play a try for the first time real soon (say dec 4 ;) ) and would appreciate any other hints you are willing to give. I know the above was helpfull. :clap:

:cheers:

[god]

i would go with some kind of gen3, they really work, but they are $$$ good luck and tell me what you find

that was me and it's true!

[oneworld]

these are wickid
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=40970&item=7113816026&rd=1

[mfalcone15]

i would say for night play, dont trust anyone unless u know them specifically, or you left the base with them. "i'm on the red team" means nothing. All of the games i've ever played, the refs wear lighted vests at night. If you see a ref walking around somewhere, chances are he is with a mission group. unless you know that u have a mission in that area, go clear it out. Use a flashlight as little as possible. You eyes will completely adjust after 20mins in darkness, putting a light on will make you go back into that process. As for the ATN cougar you posted, it could possibly be a good starting unit, it is Gen I and has a recognition range of 100m, but after owning a Gen I, i would say IF you can, try and get atleast Gen II., Gen I is better than no night vision. Having the ability to turn the unit on w/o the IR helps a lot, not only so you are not sporting the red IR dot, but personally at the last game, i could see the field better with the IR off, than i could with it on. There was a little bit of a haze on the field, but plenty of moonlight, so it worked out well for me. For anyone looking at NVD, personally i would say go with a monocular, it leaves your other eye perfectly adjusted to the dark. When i take the night vision off of the eye i am using it on, i can not see a thing. But its all preference. some people prefer bi-ocular setups, so to each his own.

[Burphel]

Geeze, you want me to give away all my tricks? Ok, maybe a few more.

Well, mfalcone pointed out another big tip: don't trust anyone you don't *know* for sure is on your side. In most rules, it's perfectly legal to lie about your team affiliation. Passwords get intercepted. If you don't personally know someone or see their armband color, assume they're bad guys.

Another tip is to wear camo at night. A lot of people think black is a good idea. The problem being that the stuff around you will all reflect some amount of light, and you won't. You've just sillouhetted yourself. It doesn't have to be anything special, although I'm told the new Marpat is particularly hard to spot, even with good night vision. Also stay away from dye-subbed jersies. Believe it or not, most of them show up as a white-out on night vision gear. Even black ones. My best guess is that they simply don't add dyes that affect the IR spectrum.

On a similar note, nighttime is one of the best times to try out 'paitnball sniper' tactics. You'll never get the extra range of a true sniper, but at night the extra detection difficulties make ghillie suits and long crawls much more feasable. At night, all hits you feel are an elimination at most games, a rule ghillie wearers are bound to at any time, so at night you don't lose anything by wearing one. They'll also keep you nice and warm. Ghillies are one of the few ways you can absolutely beat even the best night vision (until somebody pony's up for thermal goggles).

Last tip is to know your limits and know when to quit. Falling asleep on a paintball field is a *bad* idea. Aside from all the flying things, it's a good way to die of hypothermia if it's even mildly cold or wet out. If you need some coffee or cocoa to warm up and wake up, or just need to sack out for the night, do it. It's not wimping out, it's doing the smart thing.

[mfalcone15]

yea, i got stuck on guard duty my first scenario game, it was at EMR, and our base was the big castle. i was bored, and a bit tired, so i sat down and leaned back against the wall, not 5 minutes later after i had closed my eyes, paintballs hitting right next to me. scared the crap out of me. see me and my friend were taking turns using a q-beam to scan the woods, so it was hit turn, and i guess there was some people in the woods that decided to take a shot at him, lol

[Evil Bob]

It takes the average person 30 minutes for their eyes to fully adapt to night time conditions, one camera flash will ruin that in an instant. When the gear shuts off, you need to turn it on again, this gives the other guy a few seconds to operate in which you cannot see at all.

Gen II and III systems have a threshold cutoff to help prevent damage to the gear, but it will still ruin your nighttime vision from the brief flare of bright light due to the display being saturated. Gen III are usually prohibitively expensive, usually in the $2k-$5k range depending upon the make and model. It all depends upon how badly you want to be able to see and how much detail you want. The better the generation, the clearer the resulting picture.

I've used NVG's for many years in the military predominately in night time operations, both weapon and helmet mounted, both have their pros and cons to any given situation.


Weapon mounted:

PRO: NVG is typically sighted along the round flight path so you can hit what you see.
CON: NVG sees only where the barrel is pointed, aka "tunnel vision", you only see where the marker is pointed.


Helmet mounted:

PRO: You see everything you look at.
CON: Keeping them comfortably on your eyes can be a pain, usually requiring a very uncomfortable harness system and alot of added weight to your skull.


Best of both worlds: Look to what the miltary does for night operations on their gear. The configuration that the M4 is typically outfitted for is DOT sight on weapon (usually reflex sight), helmet mounted NVG. DOT sight gives you an aiming reference for where the rounds are supposed to go, helmet mounted NVG allows you to see more then just your weapon sees.

The above option usually has the weapon mounting multiple illumination sources rangeing from high intensity LED "blaster" lights for blinding and/or flooding lighting an area to overwhelm an enemies night vision to aiming aids using either/both visible and non visible lasers. You can get by with a mini mag light a $20 tactical on/off switch (http://www.lymanproducts.com/store/page135.html) stickied to the battery pack on your e/xmag. For those of you with cash to burn look at SureFire (http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/pgrfnbr/16/sesent/00), they aint cheap, but they really light the area up. Which ever route you go, I highly recommend the remote on/off switched that is activated by squeezing, momentary lighting is your best friend, it allows you to spot your target quickly without the need of the light being on the whole time, making you less of a continual target in the dark.

-Evil Bob