The last of the "cheating" q's, "So do you want to change?"

[Tyger]

Yes, I'm being a troublemaker still.

The other two questions have been leading up to this one. Let's go over what I've gotten from it all.

Cheating is a part of the game. It seems that this is something we all expect and understand will happen when we play paintball. When it's a featured "move" in a video game, it's an accepted practice.

Cheating is hard to control due to many factors. This is for rec ball as well as tournament play.

Nobody likes to be cheated against. I think the talk of "bonus balling" people that cheat on the generic "you" has pretty much shown that.

And even if there is no cheating, players will assume that somoene on the other team is cheating due to many factors that exist mainly in their own head.

So this brings the ultimate question : Do you want to change the current culture of cheating in the game / sport of paintball? Or I guess more correctly, do you think the culture CAN change?

Explained, are you happy with the game as it is, or would you like to see change? If so, do you think that, at this point, the game CAN change to a less cheating / harsher penalty style of play? Or do you think that it's been allowed to go "so far" that it's just how things are and it can't come back? I'm curious about the general opinion.

-Tyger

(post 1000)

[Enemy]

im kinda stuck in the middle on this a part of me is screaming for change for the cheaters out there to man up!! almost longing for the days when you cheated you were killed on the spot! but another part of me is whispering that hey if they are good enough to get away with it then why punish them.. paintball has become more like life than any other sport out there the cheaters in paintball just as the cheaters in life are very sucessfull who are we to tell them that they are wrong they are doing so much better than we are!! you ask to much tyger!!!

[space_weazel_45]

I find that when I play [rec at local fields] people are generally just there for a good time and are not cheating, there’s the occasional flagrant cheater and the occasional semi hit that’s wiped but they are rare and when it flagrant that person is asked to sit out and eventually leave, when I play with friends we obviously know each other well and rarely have problems.

So I am rarely confronted with the issue and I think its already handled well where i play, however I know this is not the case everywhere, and I guess its up to those people to fix the problems there, I would like to see the changes particularly in competition level play because of its influence and exposure, but ultimately its up to that individual player, at whatever level they play to make the decision on how they want to play and how they want others to perceive them.

my 2¢

[CrimsonGhost]

I am of the ...leave it be like it is now ...but if they get caught :shooting:
It would be interesting to see an "instant replay" type deal happen in the higher ranks.
Do like pro football does now...charge them something for the review and if it shows a player wiping the team he is on gets a huge penalty 3 for 1 or something.
Or the refs can go and check the tape to see if someone wiped.

I just think the reffing has to be up to a certain level and more tools need to be at the refs disposal. If it was up to me there would be 2 refs for every line of bunkers on the field...one for each side and an ultimate field ref to make the final calls.

:cheers:

[Lohman446]

And even if there is no cheating, players will assume that somoene on the other team is cheating due to many factors that exist mainly in their own head.

So this brings the ultimate question : Do you want to change the current culture of cheating in the game / sport of paintball? Or I guess more correctly, do you think the culture CAN change?

-Tyger

(post 1000)


I think your more right here and the feel of cheating in paintball is brought to the forefront when its really the whining about perceived cheating (that may or may not have happened) that is becoming the problem :D Look a smiley face... I said that nicely :rolleyes:

[Pickle]

Or I guess more correctly, do you think the culture CAN change?

Preface: I have been playing since 1988, 89. Don't really remember.

Paintball culture has changed. It used to be that if you cheated you were severely punished. Now cheating is celebrated. This change occured in when money came into the sport. Take away the money and "fame" and you will eliminate the majority of your problem. Cheating is only a symptom of man's greed. Will this ever happen? Maybe when monkeys flies out of my ......

[Lee]

i'd like to see change. at least to the point where it's not a blatantly accepted practice.

i think in the "pro" arena, what will make the difference is truly "pro" refs. consitent, knowledgeable about the rules, able to make tough calls and have no affiliations to teams and be able to make fair calls.

[Recon by Fire]

I definitely want to see the cheating status quo change! But the cheating is not just a paintball phenomenon; it is a product of our society. Look at our society and will see the factors that lead us to cheating celebrated. It has become mainstream socially acceptable to do what ever you want, deny responsibility, and blame someone else.

[50 cal]

Players are going to cheat. Especially at tournaments, the big dollar prizes are hard to turn down. So there you have the double edged sword, take away the incentive to cheat, ie the prizes, and you have no turn out. Keep the status quo, and you will have the "cheat at all costs".
That is why I quit playing tourney ball, when you have cheaters and more importantly, the tourney sponsors that want the big name team turn outs, the sponsors will turn a blind eye. I've reffed tourneys where the Ultimate and/or the promoter has overturned calls that were just plain favoritism. I quit having anything to do with any tourney that Bill Cookston was the Ultimate, his overturning of calls got so blatantly out of hand that I couldn't stomach it. I walked rather than have anything else to do with it.
Yes, cheating is here to stay, unless the industry promotes an unbiased ref pool. That will be a hard one to pull off also. The pool should be former tourney players that no longer play tourney ball. Something like the NFL, NBA have.

[TSovern]

What if:
We used the cameras like you see on the ref, to review any questioned wipe, as well as having cameras at the bunkers. A wipe, would say, forfeit all points to the opponent. Obviously this could only be done at the Pro level, but maybe by setting a example of having to rely on skill alone, the "can't cheat to win" philosophy would trinkle down to the wanna be's.

I think if you can control it at the Pro level, it would be shunned on lessor levels.

EDIT: I guess I didn't anwser the question. Yes, I want cheating to be viewed as disgraceful, maybe some honor through peer pressure.

[defcon5freak]

maybe we can invest in those cams that football has where you can see all angles of a picture then no1 would ever cheat again!haha!

[SCpoloRicker]

Rec: I think that there is only occasional cheating, and I usually deal with this by pulling a player aside and mentioning that we're all here for fun. 2nd time, I go to the field owner. Again, with no response, and my business leaves. I try to play with good solid guys, so it isn't much of a problem.

Tourney: I don't have much experience at the highest level (none...) but I would assume most of us are crowing about nothing. I don't think that players can really get away with cheating in terms of wiping, playing on, i.e. conduct violations without being caught by a ref.

While there certainly may be favoritism towards certain teams/corporate sponsors, this is somewhat inevitable. I'm not sure if it can affect play in game changing ways.

[Chris42050]

I think cheating can be minimized with camera's for wiping in tourney's. I don't know if it would be financially feasable. It would require many camera's and many refs watching those camera's. Since I don't play tourneys it doesn't matter to much to me. As a rec player I find the only way to minimize cheating is to go to the field in a group of friends and play as a private group. I seem to have a lot more fun and people don't take the game too seriously. There is more honor when playing with friends. No one wants to be labeled as a cheater by their friends.

[Recon by Fire]

They just need to implement and adhere to one condition: If anyone on your time is caught cheating, the entire team is removed from the tournament. No questions asked!

[frop]

yes it can change. will it be easy? hell no! I hate to be a pessimist(just comes naturally to me, but i still hate it) but all these suggestion would have been great, years ago, when the mentality changed. What's required now is a so-called sea change. The whole mindset needs to change, as does the involvement of sponsors/promoters. It doesn't really matter if there's no wiping if an event is still rigged....

[Tyger]

I want to point out that this is not just a tournament problem, it's a paintball probelm. I mean, I go to a local field and see kids who have played about a year or so who think it's cool to wipe hits at an indoor field on a Saturday night. I ask a friend "Is that guy cheating?" And I am told "Yeah, really poorly too." That and I hear "Bunker lovin'" used as a term at rec games... Tells me it's not all one sided.

So this isn't JUST a tournament mindset, it's a paintball one. Which is why I'm asking if it CAN change, or even if we want it to change.

-Tyger

[frop]

Maybe we need to start a Cheater's Anonymous for paintball :D

[68magOwner]

id like it to be more honest, and, think it can be inforced with stricter penalties, the penalties now are slack, if you get caught wiping, you should be thrown out of the tourney, get cought obvioulsy playing on, no points for that round, in rec ball.....i suppose theres not as much you can do

[Meph]

So this brings the ultimate question : Do you want to change the current culture of cheating in the game / sport of paintball? Or I guess more correctly, do you think the culture CAN change?

Would I like to see cheating change to being something on the rare occasion, from what it is now a daily maneuver like moving to the next bunker... or snap shooting! Absolutely. Cheating should not be what it right now is.

However the problem is that 'can the culture change' I honestly think not. This is one of those it's going to get worse before it gets better situations. It is accepted and taken as part of the 'norm' as if it's the equivalent to an accidental offsides in football!

[nastymag]

right now at the field i play cheating isnt really that huge in rec. i really just see if fields enforce and refs do there job it will be cool. everyone is there to have fun, there arent very many refs . so everyone should play honest.

Tourny play.
you know what , i do it ... lot of people do it. it has become part of the game.
nothing we could do to keep from becoming that. huge prizes and fame involved , no matter what sport or game people will try to do it. i consider in tourny play wiping , kinda like playing the gray. like a foul in basketball or any other sport. we know the penalties , its our choice if we want to do it. as long as the refs are good, wiping really doesnt happen that much. playing on and cheating guns do. i say have a 1 for 1 if cought wiping and a point penalty.
i am much more concerned about ramping guns.

[Xyxyll]

I think it IS possible, but it will be very difficult, and will be a LONG road. New players are coming into the game and realizing not only how cheating is the thing to do, but how easy it really is to get away with. What needs to happen is to have ridiculously extreme consequences of cheating. All of the players need to know that cheating is NOT acceptable and to play the game with character and fairness. You're really only cheating yourself if you cheat. That trophy wasn't really earned by you, it was cheated and stolen.

[50 cal]

I'm sure all of us would like cheating to end. But that is a pipe dream I'm afraid. Too many people with the win at all costs mentality. They don't care about the consequences of how they got there.
Rec is just as bad. We take care of rec cheaters by just shunning them. It works, a known cheater that is outcast has nowhere to go. We had a rec team that would show up at a field that I worked at on the weekends that had such a bad rep, that we would ask them to leave as soon as they got there. It was either loose those 5 or 6 or loose a bunch of people that came there for a good time with friends. That "team" plays outlaw with a few other guys that have been banned from local fields.
They try to slide in at smaller scenarios by coming by themselves spaced out about 15 or 20 minutes apart, but we know them and refuse to play with or near them.

If others would follow the same example and not cave in to their whining, it would straighten a bunch of cheaters out.

[penguinpunk555]

If you catch a cheater confront him. Don't let him play a game for open play,and the standard 3 for 1 in tourneys. Cheating will never stop get used to it and play on.

[chaos lichen]

I think cheating is on the way out, it will always exist but thanks to the new, harsh NPPL anti-cheating policies it will slow. Also favoritism is diminishing with the inforcing of the rules i.e. Dynasty's second team getting kicked out. Cheating in recball is like putting a screen door on a submarine, there is no point. If your just playing for fun why cheat?!

[tony3]

Cheating on the way out? Give me a break. Cheating has been and will be around as long as humans are alive. Cheating will be here FOREVER, unless they have personal camera's following every player from 9 different angles with 5 refs reviewing each players video after the game in slow motion. Thank GOD this is the last of these threads.

[frop]

i consider in tourny play wiping , kinda like playing the gray. like a foul in basketball or any other sport. we know the penalties , its our choice if we want to do it.

NO! To end this once and for all, wiping is not akin to fouls, etc. It is akin to the ball carrier being down, he gets back up, runs for a touchdown & the refs let it slide, THAT is what it is akin to!

NOTE: This wasn't directed solely at you nastymag, it's to everyone who justifies & rationalizes wiping.

[nastymag]

i see what your are saying.
but the way paintball is played it is gonna have to stay, if we impose very strict rules over it you will defently see some controversy. people talking about DQing teams or players.

anyone who has played a serious tournement will let you know they have been called out on a splash or bunker rup. or you dont get called out only to find out later that your shoe had a shoot in the back. severe rules will have to be implemented on the feild by referees. wrong calls happen. and when we place judgement calls with severe punishments (DQs) there will defently be alot of problems. what i mean is almost everyone has been accused of cheating at one point even if you didnt. just this sunday a ref nearly handed us a major penalty for playing for one our players doing a run thrue. he said our player was playing on, all of us from the dead box saw that he didnt have the hits on his pack until after the run through ( how do we know this ...because dead box was right behind from where he started it).

i wanst angry at the ref, i understand when you make a run through things tend to get a little tense. but what if the tourny had DQ rules, we could have been out of the tournement and we would have been very pissed. and about 6 others teams would have been DQed too. we cant make the punishments to strict to avoid things like this without opening the door for people to wipe or "cheat".
so that mentatlity that i have will always be there.

my 2 cents

[frop]

i see what your are saying.
but the way paintball is played it is gonna have to stay, if we impose very strict rules over it you will defently see some controversy. people talking about DQing teams or players.

anyone who has played a serious tournement will let you know they have been called out on a splash or bunker rup. or you dont get called out only to find out later that your shoe had a shoot in the back. severe rules will have to be implemented on the feild by referees. wrong calls happen. and when we place judgement calls with severe punishments (DQs) there will defently be alot of problems. what i mean is almost everyone has been accused of cheating at one point even if you didnt. just this sunday a ref nearly handed us a major penalty for playing for one our players doing a run thrue. he said our player was playing on, all of us from the dead box saw that he didnt have the hits on his pack until after the run through ( how do we know this ...because dead box was right behind from where he started it).

i wanst angry at the ref, i understand when you make a run through things tend to get a little tense. but what if the tourny had DQ rules, we could have been out of the tournement and we would have been very pissed. and about 6 others teams would have been DQed too. we cant make the punishments to strict to avoid things like this without opening the door for people to wipe or "cheat".
so that mentatlity that i have will always be there.

my 2 cents

That's why I said a sea-change is needed, not just stricter rules...

[Recon by Fire]

Or maybe we will see the opposite change. Since it is acceptable to cheat and part of the game, even necessary; how long will it be before the teams rampage off field and attack spectators? Oh wait, that is basketball.

[SummaryJudgement]

:nono: I think if you try to justify cheating in any way, you already have the wrong mindset. To say it's accepted, part of strategy, or fair if "the other guy does it" is...well just WRONG. Sorry, but that's how I feel. There are rules in play for a reason and if you break those rules you SHOULD be punished.

And here's one reason. Does anybody know what a "cocktail" is? Well, I found out when a guy I knew wanted to make one at a tournament we were at. A cocktail is where you fill a hpa tank with compressed air and partially with liquid CO2. The thinking behind it is that the liquid CO2 will slowly expand/heat up over time and lead to an increase in pressure over time. Now I know he did it once without any problems, BUT two weeks later I saw as the reg off his tank rocketed out and put a three inch dent in a truck. DON'T EVER DO THAT YOU STUPID MONKEYS! His thought behind it at the time is that it would somehow "help" him during play or give him an edge, but it's simply the dumbest thing I've ever heard of.

So, if you attempt to justify cheating as far as how it relates to playing the game, your opening up more and more oppertunities for people to do things that are potentially dangerous and stupid. As far as I'm concerned this even applies on the level of shooting above a reasonable chrono limit, ramping boards, and wiping. Yes, wiping. If your on the run, mark an opponent (obviously) and keep going, and then get lit up by the guy because he doesn't want to leave the game you are open to being shot from directions and angles you may not normally. There are lots of nerve bundles and important arteries/veins around the head and neck. I once heard a surgeon describe it as "God's country", meaning it's best to leave it alone (a friend of mine was the victim of a stabbing and was pretty screwed up afterwards because he was stabbed in the neck). I sure don't want to get shot right behind my ear multiple times from close range and behind because SOME FOOL ISN'T MATURE TO PLAY THE GAME THE WAY IT SHOULD BE! :mad:

OK. That's what I think....

[FallNAngel]

Keeping with the threads subject: yes, I want it to change; but I think we'll only stop blatant cheating. Playing on with "unobvious" hits is always going to be unknown as to whether the player knew he was out or not.

If a player wipes, he is clearly cheating. Personally, I think the team should be ejected from the tourney, no questions asked. You're caught on video cheating from a previous event? You lose the points from that tournament and your team is ejected from the next. You can't play by the rules, you don't deserve to play. Playing on is in a grey area. Did the guy that did a run through know he got hit on his pack? Did he really see the hit on his hopper? Penalties should be a bit stiffer, but not as stiff as wiping.