Why are there legal troubles between D.W. and PTP? (reasoning inside)

[thorn]

ramble: on
ok. read title. someone must have either copied someone or come up with EXACTLY the same idea. dw is here in my hometown houston only a few miles away from me. ptp is in a place that is remote like..iowa...or something...i dont know..(no offense to iowa people, ur all cool) anyway how is dw going to go all the way over there, break into ptp, steal the plans, and come back? what about vice versa? if you were to take the grips off of the frames and look inside, i bet they work differently, no? so if they MOST LIKELY work in different ways, then why are there legal issues? i may sound like a hippocrite or kid that doesnt know what hes talking about, and of course theres gonna be some people coming in saying u r a hipporcrite or u r just a kid, however, the two companies (mainly ptp since there the ones getting mad and all) "oh u have a trigger that uses gas! well you cant do that! only we can do that! you read my mind and took my idea!" i mean it almost sounds like they are the little kids.

however, my opinion could be completely crushed if they actually released something on the status of the legal issues, progress on the work, etc.

ramble: off

[FreakBaller12]

because times change
It's all about making money nowadays.

Think of it like this. If your coming out with a product and another company is releasing the same thing, you are naturally greedy and want to make money. So to keep the other company from making money you put a patent on it, and you get full rights to that product. With the competition gone, all the customers come to you.

[BobTheCow]

however, the two companies (mainly ptp since there the ones getting mad and all) "oh u have a trigger that uses gas! well you cant do that! only we can do that! you read my mind and took my idea!" i mean it almost sounds like they are the little kids.I definitely don't know all the details of this situation, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume it's just <i>slightly</i> more complicated than that. PTP would need a lot more evidence than simply "a trigger that uses gas" (exhibit A: Tipmann RT) to get mixed up in all this paperwork. One of the parties is obviously very familiar with how the other's operates, and feels that they are entirely too similar to allow production of.

Now whether one of them was truly first and/or "stolen" or anything of that sort remains to be seen. Not really sure the point of this post... oh and I'm not trying to call you "just a kid" or anything, but I also sincerely doubt that one of the two broke in anywhere for the sole purpose of stealing plans. :) I haven't seen reason for paintball companies to stoop THAT low... yet...

[GT]

my hometown houston only a few miles away from me.


who are you? Doesnt matter what really happened because we will never know, lol.

[msm0711]

ramble: on

ptp is in a place that is remote like..iowa...or something...i dont know..

ramble: off

PTP's in Florida..... Remote? Texas has deserts, tumble weeds, and "cow pokes", how long does it take you to drive to the next state over? :D

[evan123]

lol Houston is tall buildings. Anyway, i just am hoping that this comes out. I have patience because we all know that good quality products take time even when people try to put roadbumps to further slow them down.

[Blazestorm]

Seriously though, PTP has not come up with anything hugely original. They haven't significantly revolutionized part of paintball, DW blew people away when they began showing the hAir trigger, people throughout the world could not believe it.

Out of no-where comes PTP who patented the same idea before DW could because the patent offices are flooded. PTP has more money, DW is a small business milling bodies out of a small shop.

DW is the one who blew people away, they deserve the patent, not PTP.

[evan123]

Seriously though, PTP has not come up with anything hugely original. They haven't significantly revolutionized part of paintball, DW blew people away when they began showing the hAir trigger, people throughout the world could not believe it.

Out of no-where comes PTP who patented the same idea before DW could because the patent offices are flooded. PTP has more money, DW is a small business milling bodies out of a small shop.

DW is the one who blew people away, they deserve the patent, not PTP.

Well said! Its just kind of sad how a larger company goes and has to ruin a smaller companies

[spantol]

The Priority Date on PTP's patent was November 2000, IIRC. This means that they had the idea and submitted the paperwork four years ago--seemingly long before the hAir was around.

[Chronobreak]

yeah i dono but it sounds to me like ptp saw the buzz around the hair trigger and get ancy and hurried to finish the patent and get it out.

had the hair never been revealed maybe ptp would never had made it

btw i think tom probly found out pretty quick given agd and ptp past cooperation about them making a pneu trigger.

colin probly felt left int he cold :(

ptp had a quote not too long ago i believe sayign soemthing like but not exactly

" ptp has cooperated with other companies in the past and we dont see why we couldnt work out this one to make both parties happy"

[shatter_storm]

The thing that gets me is that you all are jumping to conclusions about the interactions between DW and PTP. Has nicad come out and said that he will not be releasing the hAir trigger because of PTP's patent? Has PTP said that they have lawyers on standby if/when nicad releases his hAir?

My understanding of the situation (from what has been officially announced) is that PTP holds claim on a patent that is similar to the way nicad set up the hAir. The two companies need to talk to each other and figure out if that is true, and if so, what sort of licensing is necessary so that both companies can do what they want. Until they can come to an agreement in that respect, neither of them should say or do anything as it can possibly be incriminating and provide some major fuel towards lawsuits and legal troubles.

I don't think either one "stole" anything, I don't think PTP is "pulling a smartparts" and I don't think getting all up in a huff about the situation is a good idea.
PTP thought up an idea a few years ago, patented it, and now can do what they wish within the realm of patent law. Intellilectual property, patents, and their legal mumbo-jumbo is a horrible thing to get tangled up in, not only in the paintball industry but in others, such as the software industry. Usually, the company with the most money wins the fight, and I have a good feeling that neither PTP or DW wants to go to that length in this regard. They'll both lose something, whether it be money, time, rights to an idea, or respect in the industry.

The only things that will end this situation are time and sensible people talking it over - so what we as the consumers have to do is wait. It's really horrible, because I want to be able to tap out 16 bps on my mag just as much as everyone else, but there's no sense making endless threads screaming for updates and deriding PTP and DW for not getting their acts together.

[Lethargic]

ramble: on
ok. read title. someone must have either copied someone or come up with EXACTLY the same idea.

Ya know, I recently learned in my math class that Issac Newton and another guy in France (whose name I cannot recall for the life of me) INDEPENDENTLY developed Calculus. Neither of them saw the other's work, and neither was helped by someone who saw the other person's work. It was not until the Frence guy published his work that Issac Newton (who had actually started developing calculus earlier) heard that he had any sort of a competitor. Now, this in itself is kind of off topic, but consider:

An ENTIRE branch of Mathematics (3 years of college classes!)
vs.
A trigger frame activated by pneumatics.

Which one is more complicated? Which one would oyu more expect people to independently develop? Not only that, but what makes you all think that they work the same? Have you guys seen how the PTP frame works? How about the "hAir?" Unless I missed something, neither design is fully understood by the average forumgoer.

Soooo...

STOP ARGUING ABOUT THINGS YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND!!! IT ONLY MAKES YOU LOOK DUMB IN THE LONG RUN!!!(/breathe)

ahh....

[WARPED1]

. ptp is in a place that is remote like..iowa...or something..

PTP is about 45 minutes from me here in Florida. Where the hell did you get Iowa?!!?

[Lethargic]

Seriously though, PTP has not come up with anything hugely original. They haven't significantly revolutionized part of paintball, DW blew people away when they began showing the hAir trigger, people throughout the world could not believe it.

Out of no-where comes PTP who patented the same idea before DW could because the patent offices are flooded. PTP has more money, DW is a small business milling bodies out of a small shop.

DW is the one who blew people away, they deserve the patent, not PTP.

Sorry dude, but PTP had the patent in years before the hAir came up as anything close to an actual product. This whole "PTP doesn't deserve it" thing is childish, and I'm not going to go into it. It is hardly an aguement at all, and comes off as more of a whine.

Oh, and PTP is really not a big business of any sort. No paintball company has the clout, size, or money to be considered "big." Think about it. Microsoft, G&E, Cingular, and... PTP?

Sorry dude, doesn't quite work...

[Rhinopkc]

You guys are overlooking the fact that putting a pneumatic trigger on a Mag is not a new idea, Punisher did one a long time ago. All PTP and Deadlywind did was put some effort into making it a neater package. Quit :cry: about PTP, they haven't done anything wrong here, there have been many times throughout history that people have come up with the same idea and one guy beat the other to the patent office. You guys that are whining about PTP are not being reasonable because you are biased toward Deadlywind and are not considering PTP's side.

[thorn]

im sorry about the whole iowa thing. HOWEVER texas is the second largest state (in population) with california being the first. florida has alot of people too, however, houston has many more people than even the largest city in florida. also, i thougt that because i could have promised that there was an addy on there to iowa..or something..no offense meant to anyone. however, as a whole paintball consumer mass, more people seem to want the hAir over the pblade. yeah but also, cars work the same way, why arent there comapnies fighting eachother "oooh they copied me!" why dont they both release it and see what sells?

[thorn]

also a good paintball company cares more about the player and his/her equipment than money. if they want the best product out on the market, lawyers dont cut it. consumers decide that.

[frontrunner]

stuff like this would never have happen if Smart Parts had started it. they strated a money grubbing trend in the sport and people wonder why i hate them with a passion. To me they are the poster company for what is wrong with the sport. Say no to SP

[Chronobreak]

as toyota said ITS ABOUT $ always has been and will be ..atleast for some/msot companies.

other than tom(who does paintball as a hobby) pretty much everyone else is in it for the $.

and other than sp not really inventing there stuff IF THEY HAD i would see no problem in protecting there intellectual rights.

i know its dumb and not good for the sport but thats how it works

somone shouldnt be able to ahve a ptent for any electronic gun....thats kinda like having teh copyright to the desighn of a car with an engine....

[CoolHand]

DW is the one who blew people away, they deserve the patent, not PTP.

Wow. Do you really believe that?

Does it matter to you that they filed for it four years before DW built their first proto?

That is a statement born of emotion. Business isn't driven by emotion.

[slade]

neither PTP nor DW deserves the patent over the other. They both developed a similar design independently at about the same time. Patents exist to prevent people from knocking off products, and it should stay that way. It should not be that the first person to apply for a patent gets to shut out all oposition, if they both develop the product themselves they should both be able to produce it. And this is ignoring the fact that there have been pneumatic triggers invented before either PTP or DW designed theirs.

[thorn]

so why didnt they release about 3 years ago? did they jusst have to wait for dw?

[msm0711]

im sorry about the whole iowa thing. HOWEVER texas is the second largest state (in population) with california being the first. florida has alot of people too.....

Yeah, well, we got more old people here :nono:, and thus, well, more people die here, and ....well....nevermind.... :D No biggy, just don't want to be confused with Iowa....

[CoolHand]

so why didnt they release about 3 years ago? did they jusst have to wait for dw?

No, they were waiting for the patent to issue.

Its not like you just run down to the USPTO, slap the application on ol' poindexter's desk, he reads it and then just cranks out the patent.

They just got the patent because the USPTO is that backed up.

You think this sucks, just ponder on the alternate situation - What would have happened if PTP hadn't had this application in for four years?

That's right . . . . DW would have had to either:

a) Go to market with nothing more than the "Pat. Pending" status to cover them.

OR

b) Waited it out like PTP did (causing all you guys that are holding your breath to pass out long before it would issue).

Legal issues suck. Lawyers suck. And sometimes . . . business sucks.

Sorry.

[magman007]

you all seem to treat this idea like it is something you cant have done already. the baisic principal was done by Punnisher a while back, any one remember the mag with the cocker lpr? well... you gotta ask your self, the pneumatic assisted sear in his frame was much like is being done at the moment by ptp and DW. maybe not in the exact way in any case, but hell, if you want it done, contact punnisher

[CoolHand]

you all seem to treat this idea like it is something you cant have done already. the baisic principal was done by Punnisher a while back, any one remember the mag with the cocker lpr? well... you gotta ask your self, the pneumatic assisted sear in his frame was much like is being done at the moment by ptp and DW. maybe not in the exact way in any case, but hell, if you want it done, contact punnisher

Indeed.

What these two are arguing over (from what I can gleen from various sources) is not the fact that they use air to assist the trigger, but the way in which that is implemented.

[Tunaman]

and I KNOW you all realize that Tom INVENTED the first electronic paintball gun way back in 1972. Where did that get him? The old saying goes..."he who hesitates is lost".
"Paintball is ugly on the inside. Don't get involved."-Tom Kaye :nono:

[Muzikman]

"Paintball is ugly on the inside. Don't get involved."-Tom Kaye :nono:


"Paintball is ugly on the outside. Drink a beer." - Me ;)

[Fred]

"Paintball is ugly on the outside. Drink a beer." - Me ;)

and then Fred Said... let it be a sig-quote! :headbang:

---Fred

[WARPED1]

See, PTP is smaller than AGD, but bigger than DW!
I don't care who comes out with it first, I don't have a mag and if I did, I wouldn't get that particular mod. If I want the speed of an electro, I'll shoot an electro! One mans opinion................

[madmolly]

Just reading what your post said brought curiousity. Did tom have something to do with the military paintball guns they patented in the 70s or something else or were you being sarcastic and I missed the whole point.

[alooney11]

When is the hair trigger coming out?

[slade]

When is the hair trigger coming out?
http://www.automags.org/~Manike/banhim.jpg

[craltal]

alooney,
STOP ASKING THE SAME DAMN QUESTION IN EVERY FORUM! WE DON"T KNOW AND ALL YOU ARE DOING IS PISSING OFF A BUNCH OF US WITH THIS CHILDISH IDIOCY.

thorn,
Just because you live in Houston doesn't give you the right to think you are better than the whole state of Florida. You live in a big city, big deal. I used to live in Philadelphia, which is ranked #5 compared to your #4 according to the 2000 census and actually prefer the feel of a smaller city. As for the level of industrial espionage you suggest, you think we should call this "hAirgate"

PTP has not brought legal action against DW, if you actually bother to read the information, DW postponed the development because he found out someone else was working on a very similar product and needed to discuss the matter with them before proceeding. My guess is that PTP wasn't going to enter into discussions until the patent that they applied for in 2000 was finalized. The fact that they didn't release a prototype 3 years ago doesn't mean squat. That was a decision they made and was fully their right to do. Both parties are doing the responsible thing here and just because it means that you don't have one of these frames underneath you xmas tree is no reason for you to act like four year olds. I'm getting tired of the lack of maturity. Go take some ridilin and ram your head into a tree for a while. Maybe you'll knock something back into place. Or better yet, go play over a pbn.

[WARPED1]

alooney,
STOP ASKING THE SAME DAMN QUESTION IN EVERY FORUM! WE DON"T KNOW AND ALL YOU ARE DOING IS PISSING OFF A BUNCH OF US WITH THIS CHILDISH IDIOCY.

thorn,
Just because you live in Houston doesn't give you the right to think you are better than the whole state of Florida. You live in a big city, big deal. I used to live in Philadelphia, which is ranked #5 compared to your #4 according to the 2000 census and actually prefer the feel of a smaller city. As for the level of industrial espionage you suggest, you think we should call this "hAirgate"

PTP has not brought legal action against DW, if you actually bother to read the information, DW postponed the development because he found out someone else was working on a very similar product and needed to discuss the matter with them before proceeding. My guess is that PTP wasn't going to enter into discussions until the patent that they applied for in 2000 was finalized. The fact that they didn't release a prototype 3 years ago doesn't mean squat. That was a decision they made and was fully their right to do. Both parties are doing the responsible thing here and just because it means that you don't have one of these frames underneath you xmas tree is no reason for you to act like four year olds. I'm getting tired of the lack of maturity. Go take some ridilin and ram your head into a tree for a while. Maybe you'll knock something back into place. Or better yet, go play over a pbn.


I think it's funny that when it comes to mag stuff, you fully understand and support the patent process, but when SP did it, yall get your panties in a bunch! Can you say double standard? [Mr. Rogers]Gooooooooooooooooooooood, I knew you could![/end Mr. Rogers]

[SlartyBartFast]

I think it's funny that when it comes to mag stuff, you fully understand and support the patent process, but when SP did it, yall get your panties in a bunch! Can you say double standard? [Mr. Rogers]Gooooooooooooooooooooood, I knew you could![/end Mr. Rogers]

I think it's pathetic that people can't see the difference between the two issues.

The SP patent is invalid, too braod, and was extended and changed to claim far more than the original patent, but they are strongarming smaller companies into accepting their terms due to their financial clout.

[craltal]

I think it's funny that when it comes to mag stuff, you fully understand and support the patent process, but when SP did it, yall get your panties in a bunch! Can you say double standard? [Mr. Rogers]Gooooooooooooooooooooood, I knew you could![/end Mr. Rogers]

too bad you don't understand what actually happened. SP's patent is for something that they didn't come up with, but rather bought. Also none of the parties we are discussing have actually gone into a courtroom or even brought any suits out against anyone whereas SP has. Did you read the judges ruling that SP's claim was invalid? Notice that since that ruling SP has stopped filing lawsuits?

Get your facts straight before you try calling me out. And leave the late Fred Rogers out of it.

[gibby]

Come to think of it...it is kind of crazy. Sure, DW and PTP might have the same idea but the mechanics might differ from each other. One of the comparisons that came to mind when first reading this thread was...computers. We have intel, AMD, macs based computers. All manipulate binary data...all are different architectures that work differently but basically achieve the same thing...running software.

Is competition such a bad thing? I always thought that competition was good because it pushes the industry and the products. Hopefully PTP and DW can both release their products without getting into such an ugly mess/debate.

[SlartyBartFast]

Come to think of it...it is kind of crazy. Sure, DW and PTP might have the same idea but the mechanics might differ from each other. One of the comparisons that came to mind when first reading this thread was...computers. We have intel, AMD, macs based computers. All manipulate binary data...all are different architectures that work differently but basically achieve the same thing...running software.

Is competition such a bad thing? I always thought that competition was good because it pushes the industry and the products. Hopefully PTP and DW can both release their products without getting into such an ugly mess/debate.

Competition isn't a bad thing and your examples are poorly chosen. The computer world is absolutely overrun with patents, liscencing, and bizzare stories of reverse engineering and patent issue avoidance.

To directly answer the question asked originally in this thread:

There are troubles because we are lucky enough to live in a society where the right of someone to benefit from their own creativity and ingenuity as well as the right to property (both physical and intellectual) is protected by law.

Without the protection of patents it would be the little guys that would be wiped out. Every new idea would be copied and sold by whoever could make it the cheapest and all the real creators would go bankrupt on development and prototyping costs.

[WARPED1]

I think it's pathetic that people can't see the difference between the two issues.

The SP patent is invalid, too braod, and was extended and changed to claim far more than the original patent, but they are strongarming smaller companies into accepting their terms due to their financial clout.
Wrong. In 1996, SP and WDP started develpment on electros. Pneu Ventures, which was under SP contract, applied for a patent first. Pneu Ventures was bought out by SP, and everything created and applied for by PVI became the intelectual property of SP. WDP applied for nothing. The patent wasn't awarded until recently, after much debate. Maybe it's to broad, but don't blame SP, blame the rules of the US Patent office.

[craltal]

Wrong. In 1996, SP and WDP started develpment on electros. Pneu Ventures, which was under SP contract, applied for a patent first. Pneu Ventures was bought out by SP, and everything created and applied for by PVI became the intelectual property of SP. WDP applied for nothing. The patent wasn't awarded until recently, after much debate. Maybe it's to broad, but don't blame SP, blame the rules of the US Patent office.

Please read. SP lost in court back in August.

http://www.68caliber.com/news/industry/story04341.php

[SlartyBartFast]

Wrong. In 1996, SP and WDP started develpment on electros. Pneu Ventures, which was under SP contract, applied for a patent first. Pneu Ventures was bought out by SP, and everything created and applied for by PVI became the intelectual property of SP. WDP applied for nothing. The patent wasn't awarded until recently, after much debate. Maybe it's to broad, but don't blame SP, blame the rules of the US Patent office.

Wrong right back at you.

The initial patent was clearly for the Shocker. The extended contract broadened the patent to cover all conceivable electros.

Yes, the ultimate problem is the patent office. But it takes slime to take advantage of obvious legal loopholes and the inattention of the authorities.

[rabidchihauhau]

A BUNCH of hooey has been unleashed in here by people who have their facts wrong, totally misunderstand intellectual property, spout off rumor and innuendo they heard from someone who heard it from someone who saw it written on a piece of paper floating in the toilet after they flushed...

Shut up If you don't know the facts, just shut up. If you don't understand intellectual property law, just shut up. If you think business should be conducted on the basis of what you think someone else should do with their money, just shut the flippin H up!

NONE of you know what is going on behind the scenes at PTP and DW. I don't even know anymore because I'm not at PTP any longer.

What I do know is this:

the guy who said smart parts patented the electro first failed to mention John Rice's UK patents.

the people who think that 'punisher' invented all of this first are completely unfamiliar with the way claims work in a patent. One thing a patent application has to go through is an examination of ALL of the prior inventions that might cover the same thing as the application does. PTP got all of their original claims granted.

PTP's patent coverage for this goes back to 1999. Work on the concept goes back multiple years even before that. I know. I was there. If anyone in the industry has the 'right' to a patent on the device that they have developed into their assisted trigger system, its pro-team.

Get this. There is a MAJOR difference between 'having an idea' and getting a patent for a 'device' which performs the function envisioned by the 'idea'.

If I'm sitting there in the shadow of the pyramids, lamenting the fact that the desert winds keep on blowing my papyrus all over the place, and I think to myself, 'hey, it would be a great idea if I had something that could hold these sheets of papyrus together' - that's the 'idea'. A paper clip is the device. A staple and a stapler are a device. A piece of tape is a device. A GBC binding is a device. A three ring binder is a device. They are all MUCH MORE than the 'idea' of having something to hold papyri (?) together.

Get it?

I thought not.

So just shut up!

[alooney11]

Slade: seriously that was hilarious i laughed my *** off.

Ps. When is the hair trigger coming out?

[ej_y4]

Slade: seriously that was hilarious i laughed my *** off.

Ps. When is the hair trigger coming out?
go away :cuss: troll :mad:

[CoolHand]

Wrong. In 1996, SP and WDP started develpment on electros. Pneu Ventures, which was under SP contract, applied for a patent first. Pneu Ventures was bought out by SP, and everything created and applied for by PVI became the intelectual property of SP. WDP applied for nothing. The patent wasn't awarded until recently, after much debate. Maybe it's to broad, but don't blame SP, blame the rules of the US Patent office.

Exactly. I'm not so much mad at SP as I am the USPTO. Its those guys that let them tack on all the extra embodiements years after others developed them. It was shadey of SP to try to tack them on, but it was downright stupid for the USPTO to issue the patent as it was applied for. They (meaning the patent office) didn't bother to do their homework, so ICD and AKA got screwed.

[Adam_Angel_Guy]

Well said! Its just kind of sad how a larger company goes and has to ruin a smaller companies
lol sounds like someone i hate.

[hitech]

Exactly. I'm not so much mad at SP as I am the USPTO. Its those guys that let them tack on all the extra embodiements years after others developed them. It was shadey of SP to try to tack them on, but it was downright stupid for the USPTO to issue the patent as it was applied for. They (meaning the patent office) didn't bother to do their homework, so ICD and AKA got screwed.


:hail:

And a whole lot of other companies. :cuss:

[Muzikman]

Exactly. I'm not so much mad at SP as I am the USPTO. Its those guys that let them tack on all the extra embodiements years after others developed them. It was shadey of SP to try to tack them on, but it was downright stupid for the USPTO to issue the patent as it was applied for. They (meaning the patent office) didn't bother to do their homework, so ICD and AKA got screwed.

Everyone makes mistakes and so did the US Patent Office. It was Smart Parts that knowingly did it. I look at it that same way as if a cashier give you change for a $20 when you gave her a $10. It's a dumb mistake, but it happens, only an unhonest person would take it (if they notice) and not say something.

Just like any of the other small governament agencies that do not get public attention every day. I am sure the Patent Office is over worked and under staffed. So they made a mistake and let one slip by. Does that mean it is still right?

[craltal]

exactly. the patent office is swamped, how else do you explain the fact that it takes so long. They can't be expected to know if someone else came up with the idea unless that person applied for a Patent also.

The way I see it, SP was playing the odds. They knew they did not create what they patented, but were betting that the people who did didn't have the support materials proving that they pre-dated SP's claim.

You'll note it's been mighty quiet in Loyahana since the judges ruling in August.

Even K2/ WGP have backed down since GP slapped them off of Action Markers.

[hitech]

So they made a mistake and let one slip by.

It seems to me that the have let a lot slip by (not just referring to the SP patent). Something needs to be done. Personally I think that they should not issue a patent until they have spent sufficient time to determine its validity, however long that is. Regardless of how much backlog it creates. Patents are such powerful things that they should NOT EVER be handed out hastily. Patents are very powerful and demand extreme vigilance prior to their issuance.

[Muzikman]

Well, again, under staffed and over worked. I see it in the USGS and NGS. I even see it trickle down into the county agencies that I have worked for. The federal government only care about the large agencies that get public attention. The Patent Office is not one of them. As for the amount of time it takes. I have a patent pending for the last year and a half and there doesn't seem to be any end in sight (no it's not paintball releated).

[hitech]

...under staffed and over worked.

No argument there. And it’s not the people doing the work that I think are necessarily to blame. I don't really know, but it seems quite likely that they are not given the resources necessary to do the job properly. That seems to be the case all to often where the government is involved.

It is just such a powerful tool, and it is not being handed out properly. And someone (or, more likely, a few someones) is/are to blame. And they probably have large salaries. ;)

BTW, good luck on obtaining your patent. :cheers:

[Big'n slo]

Don't you all hate it when business gets in the way of selling products for profit...

Oh wait..

[Magaman]

The Problem I have with SP is that they are suing everyone... As for the Patent itself, you should really blame the “Patent Attorney” that Drafted the Patent and additions for SP... He's the guy they paid to do his best to kill competition. I'm sure that it wasn't the owner's of SP that Drafted the Patent. :ninja:

Wait, No, I guess SP had to at least look over the Patent Draft before it was sent in, so they are equally evil/greedy like the Layer in that they knew it was wrong... :rolleyes:

It does suck that the USPTO messed up on this one, but I wouldn’t blame them... It would be nice however if they would look into the patent and make SP revise it to Exclude everything they Added which had nothing directly to do with there “So called Invention”...

[Muzikman]

The Problem I have with SP is that they are suing everyone... As for the Patent itself, you should really blame the “Patent Attorney” that Drafted the Patent and additions for SP... He's the guy they paid to do his best to kill competition. I'm sure that it wasn't the owner's of SP that Drafted the Patent. :ninja:

Wait, No, I guess SP had to at least look over the Patent Draft before it was sent in, so they are equally evil/greedy like the Layer in that they knew it was wrong... :rolleyes:

It does suck that the USPTO messed up on this one, but I wouldn’t blame them... It would be nice however if they would look into the patent and make SP revise it to Exclude everything they Added which had nothing directly to do with there “So called Invention”...


You also miss the fact that the Gardners know and understand the Patent process and know their way around it. I am sure they had a lot to do with it. They have been investigated for Patent issues before.

[hitech]

... As for the Patent itself, you should really blame the “Patent Attorney” that Drafted the Patent and additions for SP...I'm sure that it wasn't the owner's of SP that Drafted the Patent...

I think you should look into who the owners of SP are and what their backgrounds are. ;)

[Zedaine]

An invention just has to be 10% different from an already patent invention and it can also be patented. So if Nicad's hair trigger is 10% different than PTP's trigger patent, Nicad will be home free. All we have to do is wait, it must be quite a big and busy process to patent something, since millions of other people are trying to patent inventions themselves.

[Toxic Dave]

If you invented a new type of tire and applied for a patent, and just for fun claimed that you invented the wheel too and the USPTO approved this, wouldn't you go and try and make some cash off of Goodyear?

Can you imagine the stuff the USPTO people have to research, and tell differences between? Purely from descriptions and drawings? I'm amazed that any of the patents and trademarks are even close to being right.

dave

[slade]

If you invented a new type of tire and applied for a patent, and just for fun claimed that you invented the wheel too and the USPTO approved this, wouldn't you go and try and make some cash off of Goodyear?
no, i wouldnt. and i dont think SP did it "just for fun" they did it to earn more money and shut out competition.

[ScatterPlot]

Indeed.

What these two are arguing over (from what I can gleen from various sources) is not the fact that they use air to assist the trigger, but the way in which that is implemented.
Theeere ya go, well said. It's not the concept, it's the implementation.

[Q01]

i just read virtually every post in this fourm and the hair trigger fourm
you all need to calm down, the buisness world sucks big time, and is just not worth understanding, we know ptp applied for the patent in 2000 and dw was making a prototype later and independly, so why dont we just sit back, bite our toungs and see what happens, we will get a phenu trigger sooner or later,, by one of the 2 comapnies, maby both so lets just see what they can work out and stop pointinng fingers and all tat fun stuff :cheers:

[alooney11]

:clap:

[teufelhunden]

Did you seriously resurrect this thread for the third dumbest smilie on the boards?

Good.

[Evil Bob]

At least he had enough sense to not ask for the umpteenth time when the hair is coming out.

-Evil Bob

[empiremag57]

ptp sucks why dont they just let deadly wind come out with the trigger :dance:

:shooting: ptp :shooting: ptp :shooting: ptp

[Evil Bob]

Who's to say they wont come to some sort of agreement over the issue? We dont know what's going on between them, and until both parties speak up, we wont know. Not worth the time or energy speculating or dishing out hate, just chill, all in good time.

-Evil Bob