AGD, please do not avoid

[Daniel Morse]

I have heard a lot lately of instances when the bolt and spring of an RT or any mag will shoot out into the barrel only to get wedged halfway in (hence ruining the barrel and bolt). Why does this happen? My guess is that the internals of the mainbody gets worn with use and expands in diameter no longer catching the spring and bolt, so it shoots them out of the gun. Is that right? How do you avoid this? And does it only happen when dry firing? One other question is why do nubbins break and also get wedged on the inside of the barrel?

[Restola]

i have never heard of that happening, but your title alone is nearly a flame.

if you are that desperate for an answer why not try picking up the phone?

[FaSSt]

This does not happen, probably EVER. Certainly not "a lot".

And how can anything that small get wedged inside a barrel?

Try rehab.

[Daniel Morse]

First of all I am not flaming anybody. It seems as if whenever this problem is discussed on the forums it is never remedied by Tom. It has actually come up a lot (for ex: yesterday). I am very concerned about my barrel and bolt and don't feel like having to pay for them all over again. I would like to know why this happens. If you did your research or are on these forums every day like myself, you would know that this does happen and Tom has never given a definitive reasoning for it.

[Xzion]

Im on AO at least once a day and I have never SEEN or HEARD of the bolt AND spring getting lodged into the barrel, Ive seen on occasion the bolt getting stuck in the barrel, but even thats a rare occurence, perhaps were all blind, or your halucinating lol :D

[Restola]

im sure webby could verify that i am on the board every day. i have never even once heard of that happening.

[Drizit]

man i don't think this happens a lot. my micromag has seen so many rounds i don't think anyone want's to think about it, and let me tell you aluminium is much softer then stainless steel. but if it's buging you just hit www.airgun.com and get the tech support phone number. then call and ask? as to Tom not giving us all the answers hey he's got a real life to. the fact that he and the techs at AGD posts on this bord at all is realy cool. but hey it's probably just a defect in the gun. noone can have 100% perfect manuafturing a friend of mine watched the powerfeed fall off an RT this weekend. he sh... um stuff happens. one nice thing about AGD is the support you get, call them up if you have a prob, they will probably help you out. as to your problem with nubbins... the bolt is smacking into them all the time, it has to for the gun to work right. if you have "P" nubbins replace them with "V" nubbins and it will help a lot.

[X-Plosive]

ummm a couple weeks ago I posted about this and YES it happens. Several people responded saying it happened to them. Someone go dig it up. Anyway it gets LODGED in there pretty tight. Tight enough that you have to get a battle swab and two people to get it out. It ruins your nubbin, and your barrel basicly. The bolt and bolt spring were both unharmed. It is very frustrating and in my case that was my last V nubbin. After that my barrel was screwed over and had a gash. I chopped A LOT of paint that day due to thta gash and it was frustrating but I was okay with it. I too would like an explanation. I was dry firing and my gun wasn't oiled yet so..........It's frustrating and costly. Thats another reason I am so desperate for these free nubbins! It put a damper on my day:(

[bornl33t]

My guess for a good reason whhy Tom never response to these accusations it because they are so absurd that no one in their right mind would believe them. Cocker and angel owners now more then ever are trying to come up with reason why their guns are better then mag's/e-mag's and it seem, some are resorting to the theory " if you can't beat 'em, Cheat 'em ".

Think about it logically. IF the bolt should for whatever reason come loose and make it into the barrel it would
A) Because it fits into the barrel it must be the same diameter as the barrel and thus shoot out the end of the barrel like a paintball. This could result in a lawsuit against AGD. And if you consider the vigorouse testing AGD does with all their products, I can gurantee, Tom would NOT sell you something that could be leathal.
b) It would begin to topel in the barrel. Thus getting it loged momentarily. But 300fps that the bolt would be traveling at MAXIMUM velocity would not be enough for it to get permanently stuck in a barrel.
c) The bolt didn't break but instead the metal washer that is welded into the body to retain the bolt and provide a seat for the bolt spring. IF this should be the cause then the washer is still BIGGER then the barrel and so is the spring and the ledge on the bolt.


the ONE thing I could imagine has happened it that some mag owners had the bolt catch on a wire P-nubbing. If they shoot it again the nubbin that is now bent into the barrel would be U-shaped and the friktion of the bolt AND bend nubbin being in the barrel at the same time could cause the bolt to stick pretty good. BUT this would not make the barrel useless, it was the barrels manufacturers fault for sloppy tolerances and last but not least, AGD is now marketing plastic nubbins that don't bend, break or deform.

SO if you're still conserned, call up AGD and have them send you some plastic nubbins.

I hope this helps and/or clears up and problems you might fear.
Take care!

[Daniel Morse]

This was just talked about as early as yesterday. Somebody posted an instance when their bolt got stuck half way into the barrel. If you don't do your research please don't say it never happens. BECAUSE IT DOES HAPPEN! You should never argue with somebody unless you are sure. To all you non-believers, why would you argue with me that this never happens? Don't you think you too should be concerned? Or do you need it to happen to your barrel before you are concerned? Even if it is rare we need an answer.:eek: :eek:

[Drizit]

no I don't think this happens often, but yes I do think it would suck. and X-plosive did the washer actually come loose or did the bolt just get stuck on the nubbin?

[markhauguel]

Spring in the barrel ???? What ???? the bolt spring can never fit into the breach of the barrel. Yes repeat NEVER. It is at least a quarter inch bigger than the ID. of the barrel. If the bolt spring breaks the bolt can get stuck half way into the barrel. That is half way on the bolt NOT half way in the barrel. Post pictures and everyone will stop shaking their heads.

[Daniel Morse]

Let Tom straighten this out. All I know is that it has never happened to me but i have heard of many instances on this forum where it has happened to others.

[Panzerr]

I've never heard of that. It'd say its quite possible that if Tom has for some reason ever seen a post about it, that he did not reply because it is so ludicrous.

[Russ]

A spring measures about .820" in diameter. The bore of a barrel is .685/.695, a .130" difference. It would seem that if the spring were to break, that it would be possible for the bolt to jam the busted end of the spring into the barrel, thus making a real mess of the barrel, but you guys are saying that the bolt spring is unharmed? Stuck in the barrel? I hope you sent AGD the gun with the mess, so they could look at it. Anyone can say something happened, and I'm not saying that it didn't, but the best thing to do would be to send that gun directly to AGD, bolt & spring still stuck in it. Then I'm sure AGD would get right back to you, and fix whatever was wrong with the gun. They're real good like that :D

I've broken off nubbins, a few too many for my liking. The barrel gets gouged, not nice :mad: The spring getting lodged in the barrel? Well I'd have to see it to believe it.

edit: I just did a search, and found X-Plosives claim that both the spring and bolt were lodged halfway down the barrel. The bolt has a large diameter flange (where the sear catches) How did that get into the barrel?

[Daniel Morse]

That is what I am asking. If you notice Tom has still not posted a definitive answer to this. All I want to know is, how does this happen and why. Also how to prevent it.:(

[Russ]

My point is, Has this occurance ever been documented? To say it happened is one thing, but to have sent the gun back for repairs, bolt & spring still lodged in barrel, is another.

X-Plosive said "they were stuck halfway down the barrel" but he also says that the bolt & spring were OK. I find this real hard to believe.

There's just no room for the bolt AND spring to get stuck in the barrel. I can understand a bolt getting stuck, be it by a broken nubbin, or by a spring which breaks, and the broken piece(s) get jammed in by the bolt. But for both, and then pop 'em out and just keep on playing, I dunno. Sound like trying to put 4 pounds of baloney in a 2 pound sack. ;)

[Maverick]

I have to say that getting the bolt stuck in the barrel because of a broken nubbin is entirely possible. Also, the bent nubbin, when jammed into the barrel, can damage the inside of the barrel. What I would have to say is IMPOSSIBLE is any scenario where the bolt itself could get fired down the barrel. The bolt is absolutely too large to fit all the way down the barrel. The back end of the bolt would have to break off which could only happen due to a severe defect in the stainless steal itself. What I could see as possible though, is that the inner part of the bolt (the piece that actually inserts into the power tube) could break free and be fired down the barrel. This piece is actually a separate piece from the outside of the bolt and is heat fitted into the bolt. In a previous post on this forum discussing super-bolt construction options, Tom stated that AGD takes great care in the manufacturing of the bolt to try and avoid this at all costs, but I could see it as theoretically POSSIBLE. I don't know if it has ever happened though, nor do I remember ever reading anything on this forum reporting that this had actually occurred. As far as the spring getting into the barrel, I just can't see how that would be possible either. Inside the body of all Mag models there is a ring which the front part of the spring rests against. With the bolt in the ready to fire position (when the bolt is held back by the spring) the nose of the bolt sits inside this ring inside the body. This makes it impossible for the spring (even if broken into small pieces) to enter the barrel as the gap between the outer surface of the bolt and inner surface of the body ring is extremely small. If the spring were to break the bolt would move forward into the firing position and the spring would be unable to return the bolt to the pre-fire position. At all times the pieces of the spring would be trapped in the space behind the ring inside the body, thus preventing any of it from entering the barrel.

[Russ]

Here's X-Plosive's earlier post regarding this problem.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14317&highlight=bolt

I agree with you Maverick, it just doesn't seem feasible.

[Fritzy]

This has to be a case of people misinterpreting a statement. I'm sure that the bolt was "stuck halfway in the barrel" is what was said. This was undeniably the bolt catching on a bent nubbin and being caught in the breech. In other words, the front half of the bolt would not return out of the breech. The bolt enters the barrel every time you cycle the marker. It would be quite impossible for the back end of the bolt to enter the barrel. Field strip your marker, take the bolt and stick it in the back of the barrel. You will no longer have this question.

I have experienced "bolt stick" myself several times with the new extended nose bolt. This is due to its commonly damaging the nubbin and getting stuck on it once it is protruding into the barrel. Fortunately, my barrel has not been damaged as of yet. Even if it was, a scratch in the breach of the barrel would have no effect on accuracy as the bolt places the ball ahead of this section when firing. I swapped my bolt out for an old version from my RT and have experienced no further nubbin issues. Since my Emag is a powerfeed the old bolt works fine.

[cphilip]

Same experience here Fritzy. Switched to old style short bolt and had no more problems. I think you are on the right track in describing the situation.

Except to mention it was the P style nubbins I was having problems with in conjunction with the long nosed bolt. Not sure if the V nubbins help as I had already changed the bolt by then but I am trying the new Emag with the stock Long Nosed an V's now with no problems yet.

[Mag89]

First of all the bolt and the spring cannot fit into the barrel and I have never heard of this happening. The part of the bolt were the sear catches onto the bolt stops the bolt from going into the barrel. The spring is bigger than the bore size of the barrel, so it cannot fit into the barrel.

[EnW]

There was a guy on here the other day from Africa that said the internal ring in the body that the spring compresses on broke free from the body. Is this what you are talking about Daniel? That was the first I had heard of anything like that happening...I doubt that "halfway down the barrel"
is literal.

[Restola]

i assume you stilll havent called them?

[Army]

WOO_HOO! I get to respond to ignorance, and I won't get in trouble this time!!

Daniel Morse, read Xplosives original post really slowly, ( http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14317&highlight=bolt ) ,since your comprehension is not very quick.

He says that the bolt and spring did not come out of the gun when he pulled the valve assembly out. Upon investigation, he found the bolt stuck in the barrel
DUE TO A BROKEN NUBBIN!!

He never says that the bolt, spring, retaining washer, body, barrel, valve, power feed, hopper, remote line, or Co2 tank was broken. He states that he ruined his last NUBBIN, that he had been chopping all day. Any goat could figure out that his nubbin caught the bolt and there is NO DEFECT OF THE GUN! This has been adequately pointed out by every one above, Tom does not need to give you an answer when it was right in front of you all the time.

sheesh:cool:

[Daniel Morse]

The questions in my first post have still not been answered. It is not a matter of can it happen, because people on this forum have had it happen to them, it is more a question of why it happens?

[Daniel Morse]

Army read my question really slow because your skull is too thick. I never talked about Explosive. I never knew until today that his bolt got stuck. Others have had their bolt enter the barrel (I don't know how) and get stuck half way in the barrel (obviously breaking off the back of the bolt). I just want to know why AGD has still not responded to this question? Is he hiding something?;)

[Daniel Morse]

Re: Bolt and Barrel Problems!!!!!! Help!! hurry! AGD?

quote:

Originally posted by barretc
ok..here is what happened....I shot my gun without the barrel on and it worked fine...then when I put the barrel on, I shot the gun, and the bolt gets stuck in the barrel and slowly slides out real slow!) I have a Dye Stanless barrel. It has always worked fine till yesterday Can anyone exsplain this problem to me. Or/Any solutions?? I just dont understand why it just up and decided to do this. I need my gun to work for friday bc I have a tournie..

PLease anyone??
thanks Barret


Proof (now what)



Proof (now what)

[Daniel Morse]

Army you should know better to comment before performing a search on ex: stuck bolt. Please Army do not speak out of turn and don't ever call me slow. I am just bringing this up because I have a boomstick and a bigshot and I don't want my barrels getting ruined by a bolt or broken nubbins. So think of my intentions.:rolleyes:

[Paintchucker]

couple of points:

1.) Instead of repeatively posting on the board, which AGD may or may not have had time to read, why don't you write him an email directly. Probably save you some keystrokes...

2.) Be careful with the description 'stuck halfway' as it could be interpreted as stuck halfway down the length of the barrel, which the other posters have said is impossible, or it could mean that half the bolt was stuck in the barrel, which could easily be the nubbin bending or breaking and sticking the bolt inside the barrel entrance.

3.) What is this conspiracy theory you are trying to start? "please do not avoid" and "Is he hiding something?" You sorta remind me of the boy who cried wolf...

[Daniel Morse]

X-Plosive is not the only one this has happened to, this has also happened to Major Damage. :(

[Restola]

you are so bleep bleep bleep!!!! CALL THEM!!! ask their techs!!!! just because you post some silly thread doesnt mean everyone at AGD has to drop what they are doing, sign on and type it up for you. how about YOU DO SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[X-Plosive]

christ.............first things first.





I exaggerated when I said half way. The bolt had gone in maybe an inch and a half with the spring. No the flange did not get in my barrel. It stopped a bit before the flange(whats the techinical term for that part?). I assume the bolt spring was okay it seemed fine btu i replaced it anyway just to eb on the safe side seeing how I have about 5 parts kits on me. Second I am not joking or exxagerating. What purpose would I have for this? Is it a conspriacy against the AGD products that i ahve poured tons of money into? heres the funny part. I took the body off. The barrel was still on. i kept pulling and it felt a little spring and reactice. The bolt and spring were in the breach of my barrel. I finally managed to push out the bolt and the spring through the back end of the body. the barrel then came off easily. It's not just a story and you all have WAY too much spare time on your hands to actually whip out a calipers and measure the diameter of a bolt spring.

[FooTemps]

I read a post a bit ago saying that someone's bolt and spring to stuck partially in the barrel because the nubbin was bent, broken or something like that. It does happen but it won't go halfway into a 12" barrel, it'd prolly go 3" at most into a larger bore barrel. This is my guess...You don't need to be paranoid about this...

[X-Plosive]

Okay sorry guys but I am stumped.....There is no way the spring will fit in my barrel......Lets see. What I presume happened was that the bolt was got caught on the nubbin and that the spring had just been compressed. Maybe it didn't go in the barrel. There is no real way for me to know seeing how it happened nearly a month ago. As for all these comments that appear more like flames I hope you all burn:) This would explain the springy feel when I tried to pull the nubbin out but exactly was the spring able to stay so tightly on the bolt lip? It took a lot of pressure to get it to give. I had the body on and did not examine it closely. I would however like for someone with some knowledge to answer this post when they get some free time.

[Mag89]

If you do not belive what Army and Xplosive said was true then please call Agd.

[Daniel Morse]

This also happened to Major Damage, except his was even worse than X-Plosive's. Regardless you will need a new barrel.:(

[RobAGD]

Ok you have a few different things there were brought up.

#1 - The bolt AND Main spring leaving the main body and lodging into a barrel

#2 - Nubbins rolling over into the barrel

They are very different things. and words apart in what causes them to happen.


A) You can not under any reasonable change get a main spring to enter a barrel. It just WONT fit. B) The only way the bolt can exit the main body it to come completely apart. 2 different things could happen. The Power Piston can some un-soldered in which the foamie land and the center of the bolt will leave the barrel. I have only heard of this on Bolts that tried to use a Delrin center. Next the entire engagement land would have to break off allowing the outer sleeve and piston to LEAVE the barrel.

So having the barrel and main spring enter and lodge in the barrel isn't likely to happen. So it's a non issue for Tom to deal with or answer your question. He isn't here for YOU to badger with stupid question on problems that don't exist.

B) Rolling nubbins. Nubbins BEND they are metal. They are harder than most barrel material and there for leave a dent in the nubbin area. The P nubbin roll over because they are too deep in the barrel and allow the bolt to catch the nubbin in an over square area and the nubbin wont ride up the bolt face, it just rolls into the barrel where its being forced. V nubbin only roll after they break.

The bolt/barrel fit is tight and with that added material the bolt will wedge into the barrel / breach area. A good whack and it will release. Take a small fine diamond file and smooth down any burrs and your barrel will be just dandy.

You sir need to get off you freaking high horse. IMHO you think entirely too much of yourself and your issues.

-Robert

[Drizit]

ok Daniel, here's what I can gather happened, and pleas take this with an open mind, don't make me waste my preverbal breath, and this will be long winded.

the bolt moved forward and cough the nubbin, bending it into the barrel a bit. on the next shot it caught and bent the nubbin all the way around and jammed the bolt half way(half the bolt that is) in the barrel, the spring is compressed against the retaining washer, but in not broken or in the barrel in any way shape or form. then you degas the marker so as to work on it. the marker is field striped and the valve comes out leaving the bolt and spring in the gun. form here there are a few things that can happen.

1: the bolt is knocked out the back of the gun with a long hard object, thus freeing the barrel as what happened with x-plosive.

2: the bolt is badly stuck, to the point where it can't be knocked out, and the barrel is forced out of the gun but it brakes the retaining washer out of the body (this would be difficult but possible, particularly if the weld holding the washer in place had become weak. this would make it appear that the washer had broken and caused the bolt to stick in the barrel.

now any damage to the inside of the barrel would be caused by the bent nubbin being dragged along the side of the breach by the bolt. the only problems this is likely to cause is with a sharp edge cutting your paint. a problem that is fixable with a small file.

firing the gun without a barrel could conceivably cause the weld on the retaining washer to weaken as the back of the barrel would help provide some support for it (providing the barrel does touch it (I don't know for sure I have a micro mag so I can't check, but anyone else here including you could check that.)

X-Plosive does this sound like what may have happned to you?

your best bet to prevent a broken nubbin damaging your barrel is to install "V" nubbins and be certain you do it right (but even then it could still happen) or when you can get some the new plastic nubbins. hey you said AGD wasn't doing anything to help with this problem? that's what the plastic nubbins are going to prevent. with the wire nubbins if it bent in the bolt could jam on it, and they are hard enough to gouge the barrel, but the plastic ones will probably just brake in to small pieces if this were to happen, and even if enough did survive to jam the bolt the barrel should be hard enough to not be damaged.

if you really want to go overboard then take out the bolt spring when the gun is not in use, as it does put some pressure on the retaining washer and it also shortens the useful life span of the bolt spring.

hope this helps you sleep better at night.

[AGD]

I finally see this post and it almost turned into a flame. First of all EVERYONE CALM DOWN! Second, I don't read every post in the tech forum every day. Third, as part of the forum rules you are not supposed to put vague titles to your posts. If you do, expect me to avoid them.

I only answer the tougher technical questions. Most people get a good answer from the members on a regular basis.

It sounds like your problem is the common "nubbin bent in the barrel". We now have plastic nubbins that will completely and totaly eliminate the problem, call tech support for some.

AGD

[Dubstar112]

Yeah... Thanks a bunch AGD

The new plastic nubbins are impossible to be adjusted incorrectly, and they work good with the warp..

[thlibo]

Hmm, having read all of this stuff, and frequented the newsgroups for the last few months, I have heard of this bolt problem, but in the end it always involved nubbins. In any case Daniel Morse, you are a moron who would rather whine and point fingers than solve the problem for real. Call Airgun, their phone number can be found at http://www.airgun.com

Stop being such a big baby.

[Hexis]

In every instance what you are reading about is simple bolt stick. It's usually casued by a broken nubbin. This has been fixed by the new plastic nubbins.

Think about it, if the back of the bolt broke off, how would the bolt back out slowly and be ready to fire again? The back is where the spring pushes against.

[X-Plosive]

This is not a big deal, it's fruity but nothing more than that. Drizit, I didn't break the weld on the retaining washer. My problem was simply caused by the nubbin catching the bolt. I just had to yank the barrel off. I have plastic nubbins and a delrin bolt so i don't think this will ever happen again.

[mongrel]

ok everybody
take your barrel out of your mag.
look at the end of the barrel that slides into the gun.
when the barrel is in the gun it is almost touching the washer that is welded into the mainbody for the spring to push on.
the only way the bolt could get stuck in the barrel is if the flange that the sear catches broke completely off.
it cannot happen the way these people said it did, because the washer would hit the end of the barrel and stop.
i think somebody is just trying to get a higher post count.

[HoppysMag]

ok i didnt feel like readin 3 pages of arguing sssssoooooooo it might be that u have a SMART PARTS barrel. Acordin to the AGD tech i talked to theses barrels sometimes have issues. the bolt will come forward fold the nubbin into the barrel and jam the bolt. this ruins the nubbin and scratches the barrel. plastic nubbins should fix the problem. My Smart Parts barrel did this to me. I could be wrong!

[X-Plosive]

everything seems to be solved so can we delete this or let it rest in peace? Please:)

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

hahahahhahah, this was a great post to read. anyways, my question is how far do you guys have your nubbins for it to roll over? it seems to me that they would have to be in pretty far. i barely have mine sticking into the barrel. i just don't see how they would fold over like that.

[hardr0ck68]

LMAO, oh no someone is mad that mags are not completely industructable. Yes sending them to the sun will damage them. This problem is simple, if you nubben gets to far inside the barrel the bolt will catch on it, it will bend the nubbin inside the barrel and then the bolt will get wedged in there. This is not all that comon, i have and it only happen once, with a 2 year old nubbin (i considered it lucky untill the day this happened) and with a cheapo brand X barrel cause when i bought my mini it had no barrel. The way to aviod it is just make sure the nubbin is properly adjusted, if you want to never worrie about it spend 6 bux and buy the plastic nubbins theres no way they could hurt your barrel/bolt. If it dose happen any you want revenge because Tom personally sabotaged your nubbin, send the gun to agd and im sure they will fix it and replace everything that got dammaged (may cost you a star, but thats what there for) So relax your spinter, and if your still unhappy buy a cocker and try to make it threw a tourny or two with out the damn thing working itself out of time or some other tragidy. BTW if you havent noticed, Tom avoids all posts that seem childish hes probably read it but dosent want to reply cause you sound like a 3 year old cryin to mommy for an angel...

[AGD]

Ok this is enough I am locking the thread. Get the plastic nubbins and everyone will be happy.

AGD